21 ms·

Our Team Won Startup Weekend and All We Got Was a Shitty New Boss

• spitfire 11y ago
  I've been burnt by people like this too. It hurts, you think you've done something wrong. You haven't, and I'm glad Bobby has shone some light on this guy. Everyone - and I mean EVERYONE should read Robert Hare's work on psychopaths. "Without Conscience" is a good introduction. There's a saying "be afraid when the pretty people show up.". They've shown up in droves, the party is over. NB: Also, Billy may own the company, But the contributors own their code and contributions. They can and should control this.
• davidw 11y ago
  I did a startup weekend thing a few years back. I thought the networking bit of it was fun, but actually working on the project was not that great, and there are some echoes of this: these guys decided to use PHP as a lowest common denominator. Hacking on PHP all weekend long is not my idea of fun.
• ai_ja_nai 11y ago
  Unless you signed anything, you have full ownership of the code. Demand the destruction of any working code to Billy or sue him
• dharma1 11y ago
  There's gotta be the beginnings of a trashy reality TV show in here somewhere. The thing I recognized from this though is that hackathon based startups can feel awkward, you have 6 people in the team, all supposedly equal splits in case you take the product forward but completely unbalanced contributions.. can go sour quite easily.
• danso 11y ago
  It's a nice gesture but a little silly for OP to redact Billy's name and details when the project can be found by googling "Bobby Boyd startup weekend". It's the second result after the OP, and the redactions probably won't protect him against a libel suit. And this thing happened only 3 days ago? Probably too short of time to cool down and think rationally before burning the bridges.
• andyidsinga 11y ago
  the point Billy and Bobby argue about WRT starting the venture ahead of SW is an interesting one. When I went to SW a few years ago it was very obvious that many of the ventures coming in already had significant work done ..and we certainly not starting from the ground up over the weekend.
• pellmellism 11y ago
  I had hired Bobby on Codementor.io to quick solve a problem one weekend...paid ~$400 for some code which didnt do what it needed to. I read the article as I read most articles on hacker news and half way through I realized that Bobby was the same tool bag I ran into in the past. I logged back in and re-read my conversation with him and it was shockingly similar...to be clear, I dont think Billy is right, but Bobby is a tool. I thought I was done wasting my time reading his "im never wrong" opinionated excuses and garbage. You know who winners are bobby? Winners are people too busy winning to sit around crafting bullshit and excuses. Shut up and do something if your so special. Ive seen weekend code from you - take the 222 and shhh, you made out on that deal.
  • osullivj 11y ago
    I'm not familiar with the epithet 'toolbag'. I take you're not likening Bobby to a bag of tools. In this context, is toolbag a metaphor for scrotal sac?
    • monknomo 11y ago
      A tool is an insult for a person who is a jerk with a high opinion of themselves. Appending bag to tool is an enhancer to the original insult, like douche vs douchebag. You also get things like jerkbag or dirtbag or dickbag. I think I've seen people write "so and so is a bag," so the exact nature of the insult is evolving. Bag is evocative of scrotum, but I don't think it originally evolved that way. Although scrotebag is a pretty good insult
      • osullivj 11y ago
        Thanks for explaining!
  • rboyd 11y ago
    I am truly sorry it didn't work out in our case, but I don't see how you can expect a refund for my time. Feel free to paste our conversation for others to read. I tried to deliver the project in a way that maximized the value you were getting for my time and I set you up so you only needed to fine tune some physics parameters, because I didn't feel it was fair to charge you full rate to do work that most anybody could do. I remember your project because you were my only negative review there. I think codementor may have scrubbed your review though after they looked over chat, because I still maintain 5 star rating on that site. Remind me how much you were requesting as a refund again. Is there anything else I can do to mend things? FWIW, I still didn't get a share of the prize money so there's nothing to "shhh" yet.
• todd3834 11y ago
  I can't relate with the author. It seems like most of the software engineers that I work with are not and were not nerds. Maybe some of them were or are but I don't see a connection between nerd and software engineering. Maybe I'm just too much of a nerd myself that I can't see the obvious truth. I've worked at several companies as a senior software engineer from startups to Apple through my career and I never noticed that there were a lot a nerds. I think this is a false stereotype of our industry.
• njharman 11y ago
  > Manhattan Project was a pretty valuable idea Not really. Both the German and Japanese at the time had same idea. They failed to execute.
• markbnj 11y ago
  Can't add much to this discussion given all the excellent comments already posted. I've never done a "hackathon," and while I would not be surprised to see a good, working company come out of one, I do think the outcome presented in this tale is as likely as any other, and perhaps more so.
• sixtypoundhound 11y ago
  And this is why we can't have nice things - a decent parable about why "startup weekends" are the business equivalent of giving teenagers whiskey and car keys: For the sake of argument, assume the idea was actually good: - Legal ownership of the parts of the business are a mess; instead of it being cleanly concentrated in 1 - 3 people, each of whom has a clear "vetted" and "sustained" interest in the business, 8+ people now have options on any success. Recipe for drama. - The screwed up ownership structure inhibits sane growth. The business is a long way from functional; at least 3 - 4 of the eight people need to show up for work next week and make sustained contributions for months to get a payback. Unfortunately, everyone present at the weekend can muscle in at the end (if successful) and claim a share of that work. So the long term incentive plan has been crippled.... - This team is dysfunctional, at least in the relationship between business guys and tech guys. Billy wasn't open and honest about past work on the concept. He's incapable of controlling his prejudices and working with his team in a respectful manner. This partnership... won't last. Outside the pressure cooker of the event, it wouldn't have started. - If the business model is truly dependent on technology as the basis of competition, this project is doomed; the business team doesn't respect the value created by the technology side of the effort. Once you view your technical staff as replaceable/exploitable, good luck on creating any value beyond minimum effort results or finding good talent. - Finally, I think the technical team overvalues their work at this point; there's a large business component that must be completed for anyone to make money. The price that would satisfy them in a cash deal likely wouldn't be feasible for the business team / investors to pay.... tl;dr wrong environment to create a business. More value and more fun would occurred if they spent the weekend developing crazy Youtube animations or JavaScript games....
• uxcn 11y ago
  Steve Ballmer was just a misunderstood visionary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE
• bigtunacan 11y ago
  Great article; why wasn't the site taken offline though? If the team wrote the code I'm making the assumption they did the deployment and have the keys to the kingdom to yank the rug from off the floor.
• blacktar 11y ago
  Assholery all around, IMO. Billy is an asshole for deceiving people and breaking the SW rules of no preworked ideas allowed. Bobby is an asshole for joining a SW with the wrong motivation and breaking the SW rule of no pre-formed teams (and proceeding to whine about being snubbed without any form of self-reflection in the process). The SW organisers and the facilitator are assholes for breaking the clear SW rule of no cash prizes allowed - ever.
• rcurry 11y ago
  So I spent the last ten minutes crafting a really long post about this, but then I realized I could refactor it into the following statement: If it isn't in writing, it isn't happening.
• ryan90 11y ago
  This it the epitome of Startup Weekends' short fall. You simply can't start a company in a weekend. Even moreso, you can't expect to start a company with a bunch of random people you just met. This gets complicated by the fact that not only do the team members not know each other, they inevitably all have day jobs. They all have different level of skills. Not to mention that companies shouldn't be started by more than 2 or 3 people - teams at startup weekend are typically 6-8 as I recall. And if a team wins, they think this somehow increases their chance of success at starting an actual company. I'm a big fan of the concept of startup weekend purely to raise awareness of what it's like to start a company. But stop it there. Nobody be looking to start a company out of a weekend event. I'm not at all shocked at what happened here. And to the poster, it's your own fault. If you actually thought you would start something with a random "idea guy", well, lesson learned. At least read up on IP agreements first.
• jmartens 11y ago
  The way Billy has acted is totally out of alignment with Startup Weekend, its rules and purpose. Same with prize money, it never should have been allowed according to Startup Weekend rules and guidelines.
• peignoir 11y ago
  Such a great post, thx for writing it, you inspired me to write about how to stop the startup Bullshit... Startup Weekend has always been neutral and we should remind our community why / what it really mean. @peignoir
• morgante 11y ago
  It looks like the startup is up and running (presumably, with the unlicensed code): http://www.staffedup.com/ http://www.staffedup.com/ At this point, Bobby & co. should just sit back and let Billy try to make it into a success. Then sue him for using their code.
• jcwilde 11y ago
  This would be an awesome wrinkle in the story if the silent partner, "Jeremy P", turned out to be Jeremy Piven.
• johnymontana 11y ago
  This experience really highlights one of the major misconceptions of Startup Weekend events. It is really an exercise in building a startup in 54 hours. You learn how to work with a team, validate an idea, the devs hopefully learn some business stuff and the business people hopefully learn some dev stuff. You build a prototype and pitch to the judges as if you were pitching to investors. But that's all it is - an exercise meant to improve your skills, meet new people and improve the startup community in your area. I think it is simply unrealistic to expect an actual startup to come out of the weekend. Validate an idea and meet new people, yes, but a startup is much more than that.
• andyana 11y ago
  Stop working for startups like this. Either the person with the idea should learn to help with development, or they should pay you market value. The whole startup culture is starting to make me cringe.
• jml2061 11y ago
  24 years as a cook and chef, greasy spoon and top 10 world ranked level, here. Also owner of two successful restaurants. Billy's idea is neither new nor very much in demand. Large chain "restaurants" have their own, HR cobbled, solutions, smaller restaurants don't function that way, no matter how high or low on the fame ladder they are. Investing a weekend, maybe, but this won't sell. Looks to me the software talent in this equation made the best move by taking their $222 (or licensing the code to Billy) and moving on.
• dunk010 11y ago
  I'm sure this guy sneers at people who fall for Nigerian Prince emails, but he basically did the same thing. He allowed his own greed to cloud his judgement.
• sid- 11y ago
  Sounds pretty much like the startup weekend experience I had as well. I pitched and helped built team and the site (am a developer) but the business guys behavior just put me off so much that I walked away (he basically changed my idea ...a pivot ?? and had the team build his one)...then they rode our second place success and hired other devs and got something going again...I dont rue them their business success but he should not have joined our team if he wanted to build his idea ...I sometimes wonder if nice guys ever finish first in business :( My experience on that weekend is one of the reasons I dont go to startup weekends anymore...but it was a good lesson and learning experience for me...not something I could pick up from a book
• DiabloD3 11y ago
  Okay, so, as far as I can tell, if the team just quits on him, doesn't his "company" just fall flat on its face because that guy that took over has no concept on how to run a software development project?
  • raverbashing 11y ago
    Yes The text begins with a 'sad story' about bullying but apparently they forgot the lesson on taking a stance. "Team Paladin" what's this, a rip-off of Silicon Valley written by 'Armageddon' screenwriters? Good thing it ended with a good conclusion (aka foot to the behind)
  • pimentel 11y ago
    It "falls" but with good publicity because of the team. After that it's just a matter of hiring new developers and profit on the SW team's work.
  • rasz_pl 11y ago
    lol no, all it takes is "StaffedUp is hiring a new stack engineer to take us into the next level" post
• CamatHN 11y ago
  A handshake agreement (not written down) can definitely hold up in court so be careful in not giving any claim you are owed through your claiming of money as it could represent your giving up your potential equity as well. Doesn't matter if he has an LLC, you may likely have claim if he was not clear that you were not receiving equity (i.e. such as if you were coming in as a contractor).
  • amatix 11y ago
    http://www.backofanapkin.co.nz/ http://www.backofanapkin.co.nz/ is a brilliant idea for this sort of pre-company-formation thing -- at a minimum it forces you to spend a few minutes thinking about what happens if things don't work out in a team/project/idea.
    • BatFastard 11y ago
      Wish I had had that for a number of ventures.
    • kevindeasis 11y ago
      thats a really nice tool to have. where do you find stuff like these?
      • amatix 11y ago
        Was launched at a local event (http://gathergather.co.nz/ http://gathergather.co.nz/), and popped up on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6904743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6904743 -- IIRC there was a US version someone released a bit later, but I can't find it atm.
• brador 11y ago
  I love the corporate passive-aggressive replies from all involved. Wonderful. Not legal advice: I would wait it out, see if the business is a success, then sue the hell out of the guy ala Winklevoss@Facebook. Better than a shit-tier 0.4% equity stake any day.
• deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  • kaeluka 11y ago
    Whether you feel like this is acceptable or not does not matter: If you want to send a message and it ends up in the other side receiving the message AND being uncomfortable, you're pretty bad at sending messages.
  • mattmanser 11y ago
    I'm sorry, but your world view is very outdated. It's cringe worthy. It's like hearing my parents talk about 'the blackies' or as my Mum once said about a parade, 'it's nice that they get out sometimes'. It's the underlying attitude that they're different somehow, that you don't really believe in equality, you're just doing it for show. Using gay as a jokey insult says that deep down you believe there's something wrong with being gay.
    • gohrt 11y ago
      Venturing rather off-topic, but: young folks today learn the epithet "gay" as in "loser" separate from the homosexuality aspect. It's nearly a homonym now. Still, the potential for confusion is great enough that one should stop using the word "gay" to mean "loser".
      • morganvachon 11y ago
        Young folks today also use the word "n----r" in a similar way; are you okay with that extremely racist word becoming an everyday insult? In other words, just because a certain group does it, doesn't make it right.
      • SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
        Young folks do a lot of things that wouldn't be seen as acceptable behaviour for a CEO. I get where you're coming from, though.
  • troels 11y ago
• noelwelsh 11y ago
  Neither side made their expectations clear at the beginning. I can't find either blameless. I also don't believe that engineering is the most important factor for the kind of product being described. For what the author calls "secrets", yes. Early Google was just so much better than the competition that it won. However, a lot of tech history shows that marketing trumps tech in many cases. Windows wasn't technically superior to OS/2 for example.
  • puranjay 11y ago
    Honestly, the OP is trying to be a bit ingenious trying to push the example of PageRank into the argument. Google's core advantage is its tech. The PageRank algorithm was so much better than anyone else on the market that it was bound to win. In this case, there is no real innovative, patent-worthy tech. It's just an idea with some very basic tech any developer worth his salt can put together in months if not weeks. I see this all the time: developers confuse pure tech companies (like Google or SpaceX) with tech-supported companies.
    • mmf 11y ago
      I think you missed the point. He said that the starting idea was not important, and made examples of actually important starting ideas (page rank). His point is that the execution mattered way more, given that the idea was not really mind blowing.
    • rurban 11y ago
      Oh no, again this PageRank myth. Google won, because it was fastest and had good links. Fastest was more important than better links. How did they get faster than their competitors? They bought cheap servers all over to beat the transportation times to the clients. Also their page was smaller, not overloaded, so the results could be presented faster. Their bot was also more aggressive. A more aggressive bot contributes more to the link quality than the algorithm, because you get deeper and new stuff more timely. People are searching for new stuff. That's how Google won. Not because of PageRank alone. PageRank was a contributing factor. But renting out cheap servers in every datacenter out there and keeping the page small and fast and dealing with the consequences of cheap servers (HD fails, fallbacks, ...) was more important.
• jeremysmyth 11y ago
  I've no idea what the licensing agreement was before they sat down to write the code, but if it was as informal as the handshake-that-wasn't, I'm gonna put forward the following idea: By default, code belongs to the author of that code. Unless another agreement is in place, Bobby owns his own contributions to that project. With that thought, the potential outcomes of this become a little clearer.
  • MisterBastahrd 11y ago
    Right. If we have no written agreement beforehand, and I'm not getting paid, then you have no right to my work. I'd have told Billy to go pound sand.
  • organsnyder 11y ago
    If no contracts were signed, I wonder if that would be the default, anyways. If it were to go to court, the absence of a contract would signify that no change of ownership has occurred, and since the work was done for free, there would be no implicit agreement of work-for-hire. Therefore, deciding ownership would be a simple (ha!) matter of examining the commit logs. I was in a business (music publishing) for a number of years that dealt heavily with copyright law, but IANAL, so I could be way off here.
• tankenmate 11y ago
  A very good question here is, who owns the copyright to the code? If the devs weren't compensated then the devs should own the code.
  • troels 11y ago
    I would assume that - by default - all members of the team at that weekend have an equal ownership. And not just of the code produced - of the concept as a whole.
    • mediumdeviation 11y ago
      Ideas and concepts are not usually considered intellectual property, and cannot receive protection or be assigned ownership. Barring any agreement otherwise, the code's copyright belongs to the individual developer who wrote it, though in the case of software projects this may get a little weird when multiple developers write and overwrite each other's code. The following is speculation, because I've read up on the finer points of copyright laws as applied to purely digital property, but by sharing the code the developer has obviously gave the person he's sharing the code with implicit permission to work and use that copy of that code, although, again barring any prior agreement otherwise, he should also be able to rescind that permission as he chooses.
      • tankenmate 11y ago
        There might be an implied right to use (but without a contract to specify compensation a court might require Billy (et alia) to provide some compensation), but if Billy was to re-license the code to a third party that would almost certainly be a problem.
• toadi 11y ago
  can't even understand someone goes to work on a handshake deal with strangers. Have problems doing this even with friends. Once money is involved even friends can act strange...
  • arethuza 11y ago
    Mind you - at the other extreme I've had someone invest £25K in a startup based on a handshake who turned out to be utterly brilliant and a complete gent. He only looked slightly sour when he saw we'd stuck a copy of his cheque up on the wall.... :-) Of course, people like that are rare - but they do exist.
    • SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
      I know a couple of guys like this as well. While it's true that one can go far in business by treading on people and screwing people over, being decent human beings certainly doesn't seem to have held them back in life, at least.
      • BatFastard 11y ago
        This has happen to me more times then I would like to admit. <Quote> You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to, So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in. </Quote> http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/dogs-animals-lyrics.html http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/dogs-animals-lyrics.ht...
        • SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
          Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't recommend anyone go into a business arrangement - even with the seemingly nice guys - without proper safeguards (ie contracts) in place!
• 1wd 11y ago
  I'm confused by the 0.4%. Who was intended to own the other 98.4%? > "contracts aren’t allowed from the event" Isn't this kind of conflict pretty much guaranteed then? From http://startupweekend.org/about/firsttimer/ http://startupweekend.org/about/firsttimer/: > "How do teams address the issue of IP/ownership? As with any startup, the team decides. Startup Weekend doesn’t support or take part in the signing of any legal documents at the events themselves, and while Mentors with legal backgrounds are often present and able to give general advice, they are not permitted to give specific legal counsel.While it doesn’t hurt to be clear about your individual expectations from the start, we’ve found that teams who don’t spend time addressing this issue until it actually matters (i.e., there is a tangible product to have ownership of) are much more productive and successful than those who do." Oh, but it's more "productive" during the weekend. OK...
  • bakhy 11y ago
    > we’ve found that teams who don’t spend time addressing this issue until it actually matters (i.e., there is a tangible product to have ownership of) are much more productive and successful than those who do. OMG! i was just about to ask what's up with that "no contracts" policy. this is incredible! they should rename to Exploitation Weekend.
  • IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    Here's how I understand it. OP's buddy proposed the 0.4%, they ended up with 5 members in the team, OP, 3 other engineers and the guy who pitched the idea and is depicted as the asshole fitness biz guy (Billy), so 2% of the ownership of the startup the idea would potentially evolve into would end up in the hands of these initial team members regardless of who runs the startup. i.e. if after the weekend 4 members said 'that was fun, now let's go home', and 1 member said 'oh guys, can I use all the code and make it into a company?', then the other 4 guys would each have 0.4% ownership in that company even if they didn't put in any money or any time beyond the weekend, on the basis of their work that weekend. I think that's a sensible idea: 0.4% is not a lot, but it's a weekend of work, and if the startup ends up worth $10m or $100m then it's a nice kickback for a weekend's work. If it ends up being worth nothing, no biggie, after all you just worked there a weekend and didn't do anything after to make it a success. In short, the 0.4% is a reward for anyone who decides 'I don't want to be part of the process of continuing this idea, but I want a small reward relative to what the idea I helped initialise could one day be worth'. The issue is that when it's all said and done, the process to decide who'd want to turn this into a startup and who didn't looks to have been really authoritarian. One person turns it into a company and splits it 50/50 with a friend of his who wasn't even part of the startup team, and then declares himself to be the owner and leader of the gig which is absolutely ridiculous. A fair process would either be 'alright let's sit together as equals, decide on how we launch the startup, who becomes the leader, equity, salary etc, and anyone who isn't interested gets the 0.4% regardless'. Instead it was 'I'm the leader, I'm half the owner, the other half is someone you've never met, you can still be part of the startup but it's under my conditions and if you don't like it you can have the 0.4%'. In short I can see the problem OP has with this, added to implications that Billy was being a condescending asshole. Fact of the matter is however that (1) OP and the team can decide to use the code and run a similar project themselves if they want and iterate on it faster than Billy ever could given the former have all the expertise of not just development but the codebase as well and (2) if they were never interested in that, they'd still get 0.4% of Billy's venture (as long as the handshake deal is upheld i.e. which didn't seem to be put into question). I think the handshake deal was sensible and I see absolutely no legal basis for Billy to be able to appropriate the work exclusively to his startup. In short I think OP had the power, met an asshole, still has the power. They still have just as much right to the work, still can run a startup without Billy and still can own 0.4% of Billy's venture. edit: they ended up with a team of 9, billy and likely 8 devs, rather than 5, billy and 4 devs. Can't be bothered to adjust the percentages etc but the same story applies.
• retube 11y ago
  2 questions: 1) Pre-weekend: why would you only accept 0.4% equity? Given there was nothing but the idea the company was worthless. So why wouldn't the guys building it demand a much higher slice? 2) Post-weekend: given the company was basically just the code at this point, the devs could have just said "no" to this guy and set up their own company. Why wouldn't they have done that?
  • tinco 11y ago
    1) Because it was just one weekend of work. Not everyone might continue working on/at the startup after the initial weekend. Would be weird if a fifth of your startup is owned by some guy who helped out one weekend, even if that weekend was the very first weekend. 2) They totally could, and Bobby did, right? There is the question of IP though. What parts of the IP are of Billy's LLC? I'd agree that the code made that weekend is not, it's bound under whatever the team agreed to. But the idea of the company might really be Billy's, even if that conflicts with the competitions rules or spirit a judge would still have to rule on that. Dick move by Billy, but the end result is only a wasted weekend.
    • tommccabe 11y ago
      Serious question- does the team then negotiate new terms after the weekend for those that do want to stay on-board? Who holds the 98.4% in the meantime?
      • jdbernard 11y ago
        The impression I got was that the 0.4% was a guarantee for what you walk away with. If you stayed you would work out ownership of the whole thing with the rest of those who stayed to build the new startup.
        • nols 11y ago
          Yes, Billy states this as well in his email. https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/762/1*PvteoogYHJ_zJ0MD4isyIw.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/762/1*PvteoogYHJ_zJ0MD4i...
• snowy 11y ago
  TLDR?
  • mcherm 11y ago
    TLDR: Some other developers and I went to a hackathon, met an 'idea guy' there, and won first place. Afterward, he claimed that he and a friend who wasn't there owned "the startup". We then proceeded to write obnoxious emails to each other.
  • rasz_pl 11y ago
    TLDR: me and 7 other "fucking nerds" build some random guy a business during a weekend, for FREE!!1
• notNow 11y ago
  “Oh, I don’t care. Take it down, or just write whatever gay shit you want there.” A gay shitstorm in a teacup, big effing deal! Get over yourself man. You can't claim the moral high ground when you a couple of paragraphs before quoted Andereessen that's like quoting Dr. Evil but in a serious tone. What's with Pinky and the Brain monologue "We devs are taking over the world"? You sounded like an evil Goldman Sachs bankster who's about to crush some innocent souls to extract some $$$. I definitely rooted for Billy the Texas cowboy just to teach this impostor Bobby a lesson in deal making since he's so consumed with taking over the world to the point that he couldn't make a proper deal with an investor and to let him know who calls the shot and who collects the scraps. Good luck next time buddy. BTW, your anti-bullying stance and victim card playing is not fooling anyone. You're as bad as those bullies.
  • terribilis 11y ago
    That's exactly what I was thinking while reading. This Bobby person sounds like a thin-skinned teenager who is still salty from being called a nerd in high-school.
• logicallee 11y ago
  Pre-weekend: >I’ll be honest: I thought it was a huge longshot and wasn’t that concerned. All advice I read in the startup arena advises to be ready to sacrifice the next 5+ years of your life in the pursuit, and most tech startups have abysmal failure rates. Still, if John thought this was worth going after, sure, umbrella me under your ask: 0.4% each for our efforts over the weekend. That says it all. "Sure, umbrella me under your ask." This coder agreed to that, he even was kind enough not to whitewash history in his write-up to us so that we know he agreed to that. After it's taken off suddenly Bobby feels like he is entitled to something more. That's not the way agreements work :) Bobby is the one in the wrong in this article, he spells it out in black and white. There is no gray area here - absolutely crystal-clear. If he didn't like the terms, he should have joined one of the losing teams instead. If he thought the terms weren't valid, he should have mentioned this instead of agreeing to them. Here's a hint if you want to run the world, Bobby: your word - or handshake agreements - actually mean something, and you stick by it.
  • _zachs 11y ago
    Exactly
  • jdbernard 11y ago
    I think you miss the main point: Bobby was expecting to have 0.4% in the company that was created that weekend. The event was explicitly not for pre-existing companies. So the idea is that after the weekend he can choose to stay with the team they formed and pursue the idea forward together as a new startup, or he could walk away and leave them his contributions, retaining 0.4% ownership in the new startup. Billy already had a company. He wasn't looking for people to team up with to make a new one, he was looking for free labor and options on hiring people he had already seen work together. Billy's business is his business, but what was created over the weekend belongs to the team, not Billy's business. Bobby's ask was to the team as a whole, not Billy's business.
    • logicallee 11y ago
      But the developers did walk away, Billy was the only one who kept with it initially... And Billy didn't really have a "company" as we understand it; he came with an idea. It had nothing. A legal incorporation is a shell, nothing more. I'm not the only one who was rooting for Billy while reading this post. Nobody did anything bully-like - it's a complete distraction and red herring, nothing quoted by Billy is "bully-like" - the closest thing in the post is when Bobby suggested ousting Billy from his own idea and leadership, just because Bobby helped write two days of code. "Thanks for coming up with the best business at this event - I think you should be demoted to soemthing like business development, so someone else can run it." Ridiculous suggestion, in my opinion, especially given the negotiation that went into the event beforehand.
• adekok 11y ago
  I think his response to someone suddenly "owning" the company is odd. Here's what my response would have been: ---- Hi, Billy. Thanks for telling us about your other company with your friend. I'm a little disappointed that you weren't open that you're already in this space. And that your existing company is in direct competition with the one we all agreed to start that weekend. However, I'm flexible. I'm willing to license my code to your other company for a flat fee of $10,000. This includes all intellectual property rights to my software. That fee is reasonable given my time and experience. I think that the others on the team will have similar opinions about their contributions. If you choose to not take me up on my offer, I wish you luck finding programmers to re-implement the software from scratch. Sincerely, Programmer. --- ... does anyone not understand the legal rights behind IP? Billy has zero rights to use the software in his existing company. He knows that, which is why he's trying to bamboozle everyone. Instead of arguing about an "existing" company, they need to talk about their code. They own it. They control it. No one else has the legal right to use it. What's the problem? They don't give Billy the right to use their code, and he goes away.... or gets sued.
  • Sleaker 11y ago
    Exactly what I've been thinking. Like yah Billy is definitely giving the asshole vibe from the story given (granted it is one perspective) but regardless of that, and how the programmers conducted themselves during the weekend, Billy has no rights to the software that the others created without having established a contract, and based on the current evidence, there wasn't a contract to begin with other than a gentleman's agreement that they would have ownership stakes if it went off the ground.
    • andyidsinga 11y ago
      hmm -- why couldn't everybody on the team (technical and non-technical) claim ownership to any collateral developed over the weekend?
      • sgk284 11y ago
        All of them can and all of them have to buy in to licensing it. Similar to when an open source project wants to change licenses (for some licenses), they need to reach out to every contributor and get an agreement from them.
• calgoo 11y ago
  Get all the other coders to agree and license all the code etc as BSD and let anyone use it. Even better, start a parallel business with the software and charge 10% of what the other asshole would charge. Destroy him and his "partner"...
  • rasz_pl 11y ago
    not BSD, make it GPL#3
• tdyen 11y ago
  The loser out of all of this is Startup Weekend to me. Seems like you would need to sign on to percentages upfront and legal or if it goes well the shite will hit the fan.
  • eggoa 11y ago
    Yes, speaking as someone without firsthand experience of this sort of event, the "no contracts" rule sounds bizarre and reckless.
• mgkimsal 11y ago
  The crux of this, imo, was (paraphrasing) "dude, no one seemed interested in working on this after the weekend. I, on the other hand, have been working on this for 18 months". Well.. WTF. NO ONE KNEW THAT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T TELL ANYONE. Or... intentionally hid it, because you knew it was a dick move, or you're trying to skirt rules you clearly knew about ahead of time. "Dude... I don't know if you're committed, therefore you get < 1%. I know I'm committed - it's taken me 18 months of planning my idea! 18 months I've worked on this! That you can build it in 24 hours just proves that MY 18 MONTHS is worth a lot more." (to the degree there's a thought process going on, that's part of the justification). It takes MONTHS to get investor meetings set up (especially when you don't have a product yet!) - that's HARD WORK. Sitting at a computer for 2 days? WTF?
  • logfromblammo 11y ago
    The labor theory of value is so quaint. 18 months without a viable product, then 8 guys who had never worked together before, who just showed up at an event that sounded like fun, bang out a prototype in one weekend. And for them, it was recreational. Do you know what it looks like to me when someone who believes he is committed and working hard for 18 months gets outdone by people playing at business for one weekend? It looks like someone taking credit for both sides of Fischer vs. Kasparov, just because he provided the chess pieces. I can't even begin to understand the cognitive defect that would allow for that. The world might be better off without people like that, but it might also seem a bit boring if they were gone.
• jMyles 11y ago
  I'm surprised that the oppressive language ("gay shit" and "fucking nerds") didn't come to a head sooner. I've kicked people out of hackathons for less. Why let this slide in awkward silence?
  • devit 11y ago
    Is it more oppressive to utter two words or kick someone out of a social gathering?
    • jMyles 11y ago
      If someone starts throwing slurs around, kick them out. I'm not saying ban them, but say, "Hey, you can't say that here. I need to ask you got take a walk and get your shit together. Come back after lunch and try again." Then maybe that night send an email saying "We've all said stupid shit, but I can't have people telling a copy editor to put 'stupid gay shit' on a page. We're going to lose people that way. Just be a little more sensitive to your surroundings and you'll be fine." But the "fucking nerds" thing? No, I don't think I'll kick someone out for that, but I will most certainly pull them aside and say, "Listen, dude. You've got some talent and some experience around this table. We're all people - our goals as humans are basically the same - to be healthy, socially active, highly collaborative friends with good careers and hobbies and whatever. Nobody is here to be your nerd. If you're part of the team, be that and show that. Most of all, if you have something to say about the structure of this team, do not - EVER - do it in 'half-joking' way. That shit is toxic and it's not welcome here." So yes, in both cases, I think that an intervention was required and I'm surprised that one didn't occur.
  • notNow 11y ago
    You mean offensive not oppressive and as with everything it depends on context and really Bobby doesn't come off as straight as an arrow to me, he's as shady as he claims Billy to be and if he got his way and Billy paid him off, I bet my right arm we wouldn't have heard about those slurs at all but it's in his best interest to stir the pot and defame Billy.
    • 11y ago
• _zachs 11y ago
  TBH reading through the entire piece didn't make Billy seem like the asshole...
  • mikeokner 11y ago
    Regardless of how well-spoken he sounds in his emails, he still showed up to a startup weekend hackathon with an established business and 50/50 partner that he neglected to tell anyone about. Engineers go into events like that assuming all interested parties are present and equal co-founders. Huge dick move to deceive the engineers and subvert the event like he did.
• slamus 11y ago
  Wow.. what a post ! Those startup bullies clearly seems like a new breed of people engineers needs to avoid. Actually, I also had a mixed experience after a Startup Weekend: I went to my first Startup Weekend with hope of networking but it grew quickly in a great opportunity to create my first app startup. Here’s my story Someone smart I didn’t know pitched a cool problem with an hint of a solution, and ended up having me on this team. During the 72 hours streak I found the name, created the logo/branding, made iPhone mockups and built UX/UI. The team was very nice and thinking very hard , but was basically gathering around me while I was doing the hard work making this app a reality. We won the 2d place and 3 months in a French Incubator. 3 days later, the pitcher called me about continuing working on the app. Since he had already a startup going, he promised me shares and a salary so I can work on it alone in the incubator. I was thrilled ! Being paid to create a startup, w/ shares, was the best option for me since I was married and had a little boy. Working at the incubator on an iPhone app was a blast: I learned a lot of things, met great people, while building a great product from scratch. Sometimes the “co-founder” came-by a few hours to show his face, give me feedback, and reassure me on our first handshake deal. After Two months I already built an iPhone beta, and was iterating on the UI/UX & design for the app. Around this time, we decided to meet to talk more seriously about the deal. Here’s how it went I spoke first, offering him 50/50 with no salary or less shares with a salary to complete for the percentage. This deal was obviously better for him, since he could have me work full-time on the project for free while he will be working half-time on his other project. He laughed at my face, and told me that I don’t know anything about business by submitting a 50/50 deal… He then told me that his potential investors (Which was his dad and his previous boss btw) were potentially investing a few hundred K€, so I can trade my salary for the shares, according to that totally fake number. It made around 0,3% in total I couldn’t believe he was doing that to me and really felt the pain of betrayal. I know I took risks by giving my total confidence to a stranger, but I was really feeling the bond between our minds, and I really thought he’ll be generous by seeing how much I added to his idea. About a week later I decided to take my cash and go my own way, seeing that I couldn’t bear working for him under those terms, since I built the entire product. It was 18 Months ago. In September, he released the v1.0 of the app (It was in beta for 6 months), which is identical to the product I built almost on my own: branding, design, UI/UX and features. It’s so similar I recognize my code through the buttons animation! And seeing this old, made-in-a-rush design makes me think: I could make this product so much better ! While I was away, he did an impressive PR work, and ended-up raising 800K$ which was quite hard to swallow for me, even though I don’t really mind and run a good freelance business. Fortunately, his success is now bringing me really interesting app projects, and I truly value the time spent at the incubator. I try very hard to get all the positive lessons from this period while pushing back the hard feelings. Because I’m no mean guy, I wish him the best. I guess Karma will do the rest.
• cmpxchg 11y ago
  Just as the restaurant owner sounds like he has a tendency to take credit for more than he actually did, the software engineers here sound as if they have an irrational belief in the importance of their own contribution relative to that of others. And an ego problem. "A dream team of developers"? It's 2015 and you built a simple website in Python. Both sides in this story need to grow up if any of them ever want to launch a successful business.
  • JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Do you understand how hard it is for an 'idea guy' to recruit a technical team? There's a wonderful Dilbert where the boss says "I have a great idea; I just need a technical team and investors". Alice replies "The economic term for what you have is 'nothing'"
    • nmrm2 11y ago
      > Do you understand how hard it is for an 'idea guy' to recruit a technical team? It's really easy. You pay them. Which is the crux of the issue here; Startup Weekends aren't meant as places to get/recruit cheap/free labor, so when they are used in that way, bad feelings happen.
    • gusfoo 11y ago
      > Do you understand how hard it is for an 'idea guy' to recruit a technical team? Not hard at all. The first one takes time because you have to be really careful, from then on it's just a matter of contacting a recruiter and specifying exactly what you want, interviewing and making offers that are at market rates. Investors are much, much harder.
    • forgetsusername 11y ago
      >"Do you understand how hard it is for an 'idea guy' to recruit a technical team?" I just read an article where a guy walked into a Hackathon and convinced a dream team to build his app, for free. The "ideas are worthless, execution is everything" is a curse. It's perpetuated by "technical" people to assert their value. The truth is both the idea and execution are extremely valuable. Don't believe it? Go look at all the beautiful apps in the app store that make nothing. Execution of terrible ideas. It isn't difficult to recruit a technical team. Like it or not, with a good idea it hardly takes a "Python Dream Team" like in the article to get something done. Most applications aren't pushing technical boundaries. What it takes is money. You know what is difficult? Convincing your banker to give you that money. That takes an idea and sales skills (both of which, apparently, Billy had).
• bakhy 11y ago
  the author might want to tone down the pretentious comments about ruling the world. sorry, but world rulers don't get screwed like this. although i believe that the Billy guy is a jerk (but no, BTW, does not really seem a bully), i kinda had a harder time sympathizing when comparisons with google started flying, while what they were developing was a seemingly usual web app, whose only distinction was the actual business idea, and even that was not original. and why enter into something like this with unknown people, sacrifice family time, work like an ass day and night, all without any contract - i'll never get that. the whole event is simply preposterous.
• ilovefood 11y ago
  This happened to me too for a 3D Printing startup. The same exact scheme of bullshit. Fellow developers, unite :) I was just curious so I found this: http://www.staffedup.com/ http://www.staffedup.com/ http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/local/startup-weekend-winners-announced/article_a15e4a98-486a-5be5-9046-ba3ef1ba9fa0.html http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/local/startup-weekend-wi...
• JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Who owns the code? I think it comes down to, who has the github password. Not a good idea to let the business guy run off with all the assets, and no firm deal.
  • butwhy 11y ago
    s/owns/has a copy of/g
• pweissbrod 11y ago
  Several people concluding Bobby could have handled the situation better. I agree, but I sympathize with Bobby because I've been in his shoes. Folks there are several people that come to startup weekends with pre-planned businesses, looking for cheap labor (aka "fucking nerds") to push them off into profitability. When you enter any kind of hackathon it's on you to recognize these people before you choose to engage in assisting them, and if you dont, you have a bit of yourself to blame after the fact.
  • gress 11y ago
    No, Billy hid his pre-existing company from the team. Bobby doesn't have himself to 'blame' for this deception. It's perfectly valid for him to respond the way he has.
• chipgap98 11y ago
  The author of this piece doesn't really sound like a much better person than this Billy character. He sounds extremely entitled and arrogant. Just because "we build the Internet" doesn't mean we own the world. Billy's handling of the situation and his open homophobia are deplorable, but so it thinking you're superior to everyone can't hack. This kind of attitude is a big problem in our industry
  • fudgy73 11y ago
    I think him writing this after what happened accentuates this, as he was writing "angry." That being said, his preconceived notions of Billy are almost as bad as Billy's of "nerds."
  • apta 11y ago
    Homophobia?
  • jazzyk 11y ago
    An even bigger problem in our industry is that, somehow, a lot of us think we are unworthy, lowly enablers of "the business"'s genius ideas. Enabling tirelessly, preferably over a weekend, for a 0.005% share of the company Grow a pair, people. BTW, I treat all human beings (coders or not) with equal respect, but I also learned to avoid the "Billy"s of this word like the plague.
    • bakhy 11y ago
      you're both right, IMO. because there's a whole world between being a jerk and being a push-over. and btw, opposites typically have way more similarities than differences. (it actually says so in the definition of opposites in classical logic, but nobody seems to pay attention to that.) meaning, both attitudes sometimes come from the same place.
      • jazzyk 11y ago
        "Confident people do not belittle those who disagree. Arrogant people do." Edit: This is not a comment on your comment, which is valid. Just a quote I liked.
• raarts 11y ago
  I would be interested in a focus group or forum for engineers that got bitten in a similar fashion, or that wants to exchange information on how to deal with rats like this. Does that exist?
  • devopsproject 11y ago
    Does this really need its own forum? The point the author tried, and failed, to make is that you only have value when you fight for it. My brother comes to me several times a year with "ideas". He uses all the same lines "I just need someone to build it" "you should be able to whip it up over the weekend", etc. Most of the ideas are crap, but he has had a few gems. I always ask for 51% ownership and then explain to him that I am inviting him to be a part of the product that I am building. He can leave with nothing, or i could do it myself and retain 100%, or we could work together, or he can get someone else to do it.
• outdooricon 11y ago
  Looks like the startup is StaffedUp, src: http://missouribusinessalert.com/entrepreneurs/64346/2015/09/14/staffing-software-staffedup-takes-top-prize-at-columbia-startup-weekend/ http://missouribusinessalert.com/entrepreneurs/64346/2015/09...
  • genev 11y ago
    I got a 500 when signing up...
  • devgutt 11y ago
    also http://www.caledonvirtual.com/2015-startup-weekend-columbia-missouri/ http://www.caledonvirtual.com/2015-startup-weekend-columbia-...
• anjc 11y ago
  Bobby needs to learn how to deal with people in a productive and non-passive-aggressive fashion. If you got fucked over, it's through your own doing. The "we are the nerds, we built the blah blah" is terribly cringey. Awful stuff. There's no reason that a 'nerd' can't have an interpersonal and business acumen.
• bsaul 11y ago
  The moral of this story to me is that organizers should really be a lot more involved with the financial / legal aspects of a hackathon. "Rules" are not enough, and i think participants should agree beforehand to modalities with which code property and companies shares should be dealt with in various outcomes.
• Keyframe 11y ago
  Billy is a classic tale of 'an idea guy' where they work (hard, incredibly hard) on whatever the fuck they're doing for years and have nothing to show for. To be honest, in this case it's alluded Billy had biz contacts which is (incredibly) valuable. Most of us have been in situations like these and know what and how to recognize if it's valuable to join in or not. On the other hand, Bobby has some issues going on which are out of the scope of that little venture.
  • raverbashing 11y ago
    It's one thing to have 'just an idea', another one to have a business plan, knowledge of the business details, contacts and potential customers, etc Having that before 'the app' might be decisive. (I'm not saying it's the case here, for all we know they might just have thought of it and sat on it for two years)
    • Keyframe 11y ago
      I agree completely.
• yitchelle 11y ago
  I haven't participate in any startup weekends / hackathons etc, but these descriptions sound very shady with sharks circling around. Is this really the true picture?
• caseysoftware 11y ago
  I ran into this one back in June: http://caseysoftware.com/blog/dont-attend-a-hackathon http://caseysoftware.com/blog/dont-attend-a-hackathon Avoid the "idea guy" at all costs.
• mcv 11y ago
  I don't really understand the concept of this Startup Weekend. People come with ideas, volunteers work their asses off to make it happen, then the idea guy gets all that stuff for free as well as a monetary award for having had the best volunteers donate their code to him? From where I'm sitting, it seems to be the programmers can start their own company without Billy. Billy would probably add value due to his contacts and having thought a lot about this idea already, but without the code, he still has only an idea.
  • MatthewMcDonald 11y ago
    > I don't really understand the concept of this Startup Weekend. Very few Startup Weekend companies last more than a few weeks after the event ends - it's rare that they turn into a 'real company'. I (and many other people) view it as an opportunity to meet new people, toss around ideas, work on an interesting project for a weekend, and solve problems that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to. > People come with ideas, volunteers work their asses off to make it happen, then the idea guy gets all that stuff for free as well as a monetary award for having had the best volunteers donate their code to him? I've done numerous Startup Weekends, and the usual result is that winning teams split the prizes. Team members can continue building it if they want to, but usually teams just go their separate ways. When you grow to a certain size, there are bound to be some unhappy stories. I think Startup Weekend is an awesome event, although I can understand why it wouldn't appeal to some people.
• vijayr 11y ago
  Just curious - why can't the organizers of these startup weekends have some kind of legal agreement to protect all parties, especially developers as they seem to be the ones who get screwed most of the time?
  • bakhy 11y ago
    that's a good idea, but on second glance, it's none of their business. people should value their own work, and not throw themselves at the first smooth-talking jerk in the gamblers' hope of earning some hilariously unlikely windfall in the future.
• goodgoblin 11y ago
  If at all possible don't do a startup with people you don't really like. My advice to Bobby would be to stay connected with the developers he bonded with over the event and see if there is another idea they could work together on -- at least then the weekend isn't a waste of time.
• ctvo 11y ago
  It was a web application in Python. It was at a startup weekend. It was 2-3 days of work. Can we let it go? Do we have to go to the internet to post about it with screenshots of chatlogs and all? I feel so awkward reading this post.
  • caminante 11y ago
    You're NOT being fair at all in saying, "It was [just] 2-3 days of work." Why disregard the full scope of opportunity costs the author mentions? He's not banking on a lucrative outcome. He's sacrificing time with the family AND rest on the weekend. Now, multiply that by the size of the team. Taking what the author says at face value, he got stuck with a duplicitous character who single-handedly dragged a team into violation of the hackathon's terms. The event explicitly asked for relevant disclosures. As others mention too, his documentation's a valuable urge to caution.
  • forgottenpass 11y ago
    You feel awkward because it's uncouth to talk about this kind of thing in public. Unless it's spoken about publicly, this kind of thing will just keep happening. Which is why it was made uncouth in the first place. If everyone has to learn the hard way, there are more warm bodies pumping through the system. I want more people to understand what they could be getting into when they enter into events like this. So what it if requires a bit of akwardness to get there?
  • aaalll 11y ago
    I'm going to add this up see how much little scratch we are talking about. 8 developers at let's say a $60 dollar rate 60840 = 19,200 Now lets take into account that they put a contract of equity at the start so they are also 0.4% of equity owed of that company to each one. Last but not least it kinda ruined the experience over the weekend.
  • philh 11y ago
    If you never prosecute the small crimes, people will start committing them more often. (To be clear, it would also be a failure mode to always prosecute the small crimes.)
• ozgung 11y ago
  I was in the winning team in SW once and another time in the second team. Story is very familiar. I think the key takeaway is that you should never take SW seriously. Hackathons are not the way the startups are built. It's not a real team and it's not a real startup. That's why Billy character here is wrong. If you have a real business idea and serious plans don't pitch your project in SW. In an hackathon, every team member should have the equal rights on the project, regardless of their contribution level. Just have fun during the weekend, share the prizes equally if you win. And after the weekend, just throw away all the code, the brand identity or any other IP. If some of the team members want to further pursuit the idea, they are free to do whatever they want starting from scratch. If you want to make a handshake deal before start, agree on these principals. I know its hard to think like that with all the adrenaline in your blood but this is the only way it would work out. So I think the 0.4% deal at the beginning was the first sign that this story won't turn out so well.
  • forgetsusername 11y ago
    "Hackathons are not the way the startups are built. It's not a real team and it's not a real startup. " I could not agree more. It's a curse of the Silicon Valley mentality; anything can be hacked together in a weekend! In real life, businesses aren't built with a bunch of random personalities thrown in a room, cobbling an idea together for a weekend. It demonstrates how much value SV places on "code" over "business".
• kohanz 11y ago
  The problem for them is: we are the powerful ones now. ... We built this internet. ... Actually, we are in charge now. You just haven’t realized it yet. Automate or be automated. If you don’t know how to map out complex systems. If you never got grounded as a kid for taking things apart. If you are too lazy or unwilling to learn our ways. If you don’t work for us yet, you soon will. The above lines are absolutely cringe-worthy and take away from what is for the most part a decent account of the events. I can understand if someone temporarily holds onto such feelings due to the emotional shock of being wronged by someone else they consider a 'bully' (but really just sounds like an immoral/unethical businessman). However, if you actually hold onto this mindset day-to-day, I would say that is problematic.
  • vvpan 11y ago
    Yeah he needs to get over the whole bully narrative. He sounds like he's still 16.
  • agentultra 11y ago
    Indeed. Some very smart people built the Internet over a few decades. Appropriating the work and effort of so many other people is disingenuous. Building a website does not equal "building the Internet."
    • jeremiep 11y ago
      And lets not forget the great quote “The Internet was so well done, but the web was by amateurs”. I can't take developers like this guy seriously, he definitely falls in the amateurs camp Alan Kay talks about.
      • bloberdoo 11y ago
        I'm sure you're in the professionals camp /s
  • bsenftner 11y ago
    That part made me cringe too. "Actually, we are in charge now. You just haven’t realized it yet." is a complete joke. Whom ever pays the bills is in charge, and if you work for anyone that ain't you. I believe the entire ecosystem of "hackathons" to be a scam for Billy like people to exploit naive developers. In fact, if one reads the terms of many corporate sponsered hackathons, the corporation (I'm lookin at you Intel) backing the event claims usage rights to any ideas pitched.
• beilabs 11y ago
  My favourite startup weekend was where we had to sell the product within 4 weeks of the competition finishing. Highest selling product was the winner, went a long way to teaching me that you can produce code that is valuable to a buyer in a short space of time.
• jrochkind1 11y ago
  Am I the only one that thinks Bobby the poster is acting oddly, with odd expectations? Maybe it's because I'm not familiar with norms around "Startup Weekend" type events. I have no doubt Billy the pitch man is an asshole (almost all restaurant owners are, for one thing). I also think he's being completely reasonable being confused about why this guy he just met thinks he should own a piece of Billy's company. But I confess I've never understood why anyone would want to go to a 'startup weekend' kind of thing and code for free on someone elses business idea, someone you've just met, in the first place. I must be missing something about the general cultural expectations of such events. But it does seem odd to have an event focused on starting businesses (and creating teams likely to work together in the future on the business?) among people who have just met, with no written contracts involved (even prohibited!) based just on cultural expectations which may or may not be shared, and no time to discuss them or get to know each other in advance. Do successful teams actually get created from this process sometimes?
  • frankdenbow 11y ago
    The idea of the event is to get people to work together for the weekend, see if they like working with each other, expand their network etc. Its not to do work on someone elses startup. I've seen many teams that randomly formed at Startup Weekend go on to build a real startup afterwards.
  • Quanticles 11y ago
    As noted in the FAQ, it was actually against the rules for an already existing company to show up. That's part of the reason why contracts are not allowed - everyone owns the IP then so there cannot be an owner-employee relationship in any sense.
  • deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  • jarsj 11y ago
    First understand this. "I code on your business idea and it becomes our idea." Idea's worth nothing.
• frankdenbow 11y ago
  Sorry you had a bad experience on the weekend. I've been a volunteer for 4 years so I have seen all permutations of teams that come to startup weekend (been to at least 30 events). People who come to SW and look at is as a free way to get something built for their startup are not the target. It makes it a bit predatory and you get the reactions that you experienced. I try to warn people of this but some folks have their own ideas. Coming with a team already formed also isn't ideal. The point of the weekend is not to start a company, its to work alongside other people and go through the exercise. With that mindset, you won't be disappointed when you "lose" but you'll gain some experience and grow your network. Thats the main point of going to the event. If someone already is thinking about equity and contracts while doing a SW, run the other way. Its the wrong attitude for starting a company in general and in my experience generally ends up badly as they focus on the wrong things at the wrong times in other ways as well.
  • slantedview 11y ago
    Your comment makes me think that startup weekend runners should be more aggressive about preventing people like Billy from participating - those who think they already have a company, or an idea, or ownership of something.
  • lmartel 11y ago
    I think SW's stance on contracts is hugely short-sighted. SW should require that teams sign a (written) contract laying out who owns what at the end of the weekend, and offer several templates to keep the process painless. You could even just put something into the FAQ saying "if no contract is signed, then all team members acknowledge that each member owns all IP he or she produces, following United States copyright law." But "don't think about equity and contracts, just code" is exactly the attitude that leads to lawsuits, hurt feelings, and people taking advantage of each other. Contracts are not a red flag, they are a way to avoid assumptions and assure that everyone gets a fair deal. Avoidance of contracts on the other hand is a massive indicator of either ignorance or bad intentions.
    • frankdenbow 11y ago
• bitL 11y ago
  My sympathies to you - I am going through something similar - I just kicked out my partner (and shutting down one of my companies as a consequence) who was supposed to handle business side of our e-commerce company that I almost-100% automated as he started to express exactly the same attitude as Billy. He had 50% profit share yet became lazy to the point of refusing to deal with customer returns and customer communication unless those are fully automated as well (the company has 100 seller rating on Amazon, dozens of 5-star feedback only, significant revenue and was profitable for what amounts to 5-10 minutes of effort a day). Funny thing is I can respawn such a company in a week, yet all I got was some stupid power game with very little work from his side and behaving like he was my boss and I was his slave, working on his "ideas" (while he was invited by me into this company based on the ideas I already executed in other companies I created prior to this one and his task was to get the business-stuff load off me so that I could focus on creating "intelligent" automated systems instead of dealing with the boring business side). Fail fast, kick out people that went full retard, they aren't worth your time nor effort, seriously. You can do way better on your own.
  • Potswab 11y ago
    I also worked in a similar situation. The "business guy" who was also handling customer emails, for a while became so slack he ignored people complaining that an important feature of the site was broken. I happened to be scanning through the emails when I found it. He also had a tendency to blame customers for bugs and not even pass their feedback on to me some of the time. He expressed the same attitude of "this is my company and you're lucky I let you work for me (without proper pay)". He wasn't really even doing the business part well, just riding on good Google rankings that he'd got from doing some SEO years before. Turns out though that by not being his employee, most of the code remained my IP. When we parted ways, I started up a new company in direct competition and am now doing much better by keeping 100% of the profits instead of the small share he'd been "generously" giving me before. He's kind of stranded without a developer and not enough revenue to hire one at market rates.
    • bitL 11y ago
      Good for you! Good luck with your own company! ;-) I only license my software to all companies I have in order to avoid being stripped of my IP and I recommend it to anyone with a brain. Business guys aren't your friends, and their view of us that have both ideas and capabilities do execute is not very flattering. Usually they just want to ride someone and once we serve our purpose, we are disposed of. What is perplexing to me is that I offered him a very generous 50% share (the intent was to motivate as well as to have the need to come with real solutions when we hit some problem so that we are forced to agree on something and view the issue from multiple angles to avoid tunnel vision) in exchange for him doing the business stuff and customer side for the company (meaning arranging suppliers, building supplier relationships, handling customer returns and communication etc.) and having the ability to be plugged into a company that requires very little work (the closest to the definition of "easy money" as I could get) in super competitive environment of Amazon utilizing bleeding edge tech I invented that gave us highest Amazon ratings, both internal as well as customer satisfaction. Yet there was always enormous frustration of not having that single dominating % more than me, worsening attitude to do the required work, secretiveness, and once it started to manifest itself in not working on customer issues in timely manner and alienating supplier relationships that took a lot of time and effort to build, I had enough and kicked him out. Funniest thing was him coming back and demanding my SW as well as credit for his "ideas". Well, you learn as you go, next time I will prepare stronger rules for business guys. Guys, to all of you, creating your own company costs you like $1000 in the US, it's a fixed amount of additional stress you need to handle, you'll get used to it quickly, and you don't have to waste your precious time with people that have no clue what they are doing just want to use you to get rich for nothing.
• Asbostos 11y ago
  I think people irrationally get offended by swearing. There's a big difference between "you're gay" meant to insult somebody and "whatever gay shit you want" indicating that they think the content might be too unimportant, pretentious or touchy-feely. None of them have anything to do with actual homosexuals and doesn't sound like homophobia at all, just misunderstandings of different cultures. That said, it can be a clue that the person might be generally disrespectful of others and to be on the lookout for real harm they may do. Though it's a dangerous slide from "does what bad people do" to "is a bad person" which is a kind of discrimination.
  • inversionOf 11y ago
    I think people irrationally get offended by swearing As you said, there is nothing particularly offensive about what the person said (it certainly doesn't seem to be homophobia. It doesn't discount it at all, but by itself is essentially nothing). If it was made into some tense, awkward situation, well that's on everyone involved. Having said that, everyone should avoid those sorts of statements, however benign, because under the lens of reconsideration, where people are looking for a narrative, it's easy to make them look much worse than intended.
  • samstave 11y ago
    I totally agree. The problem with people being offended with swearing is that some people use it as carte Blanche to "feel triggered". When I contracted at salesforce, I swear it is probably of the most gay friendly companies I have work for... I felt like 40% of the people I met were gay. The thing though was there was one guy that was an asexual, and he was pretty damn good at his job, but so high-strung that anything seemingly could trigger him... I swear. A lot. And when you're in a small team/startup that's fine... But in the larger enterprises... Not so much. Recently, I said the word "bullshit" in my new office and turned a bunch of heads... If my shit doesn't launch properly I'll say "fuck" and for me - it's appropriate.... Some people don't like it. For this reason alone, I don't like the open office idea... But only because I am tired of triggering people who are offended by swearing. /weird-rant
  • oddevan 11y ago
    I think the issue in the article was that someone in the group took offense and called out said speaker on his language, and the speaker just fumbled around instead of apologizing. Even a quick "Yeah, sorry," would have at least been a gesture at respect. With the number of people and experiences out there, we're going to offend people. What matters is how we behave when we're called out. So you're absolutely right in that "it can be a clue that the person might be generally disrespectful of others."
• _superposition_ 11y ago
  I have nothing useful to add to the conversation. I just want to express my support for the author and my disdain for Billy.
• qjighap 11y ago
  Having trouble with the timing on this one. From the article: "These days Billy can still be found pitching our work at empty meeting rooms around the community" Screenshots seem to be from the last few days Did this happen last year? My apologies for the internet detective
  • irl_zebra 11y ago
    I wondered the same thing after seeing a comment on here that linked to the company and to a news article indicating the event happened this past weekend. I got from the original submission that this was a past thing and the "happy ending" was that Billy failed. But that appears to not be the case as the events were so recent.
    • carrja99 11y ago
      The "busy with morning meetings" Billy referred to in his email was him speaking about winning startup weekend at a local entrepreneur group, sans his team. I think the camera shot is poor though, it probably wasn't that empty. I believe that it was found from twitter or instagram.
• smalter 11y ago
  the ceo is the person who says, "i want to be ceo." no one else in the room stepped up to do that. that's why psychopaths win, but that's also why "nice" people get walked all over.
  • vinceguidry 11y ago
    If strongman governance is the only viable option, then it was never getting off the ground to begin with.
    • ambicapter 11y ago
      Its not 'strongman governance' its 'leadership'. Someone needs to step up.
      • vinceguidry 11y ago
        In this case, someone did, the strongman. Nobody was willing to accept his leadership though. A rebel leader was born, then, in the fashion of these sorts of leaders, immediately abdicated his responsibility by allowing the would-be strongman to abscond with the group's efforts. Rebel leaders are reactive rather than proactive. This group was never getting off the ground. Leaders have to be ready to fight for the survival of the group. Where there's a lack of true leadership, strongmen fill the void.
• darkstar999 11y ago
  The bullied becomes the bully. This article was clearly made to bully Billy.
• owly 11y ago
  As soon as Billy made the "gay shit" comment you should have immediately deleted all of your work and quit. I've been in enough of these situations to know the best course of action is to walk away.
• joesmo 11y ago
  Don't take the prize and just release the code as open source and call it a day. That way, there's no way this asshole can claim work-for-hire (probably couldn't anyway, but just to make sure) and at least he will no longer have anything proprietary. Or if you really feel like it, sue him if he actually uses the software, but it's likely not worth the additional time and money investment.
• sgarg1 11y ago
  How can one go about safeguarding his interest in such events?
• ambicapter 11y ago
  "“Hey, Billy”, I lead in, jokingly. “When they hand you the first place prize, make sure you find a way to throw us all under the bus and take full credit.”" Holy passive-agression.
  • doppelganger27 11y ago
    I think this is the part of the article that struck me the most odd. So when Bobby implies that Billy is going to throw them under the bus, it's a joke, but when Billy _responds_ to the joke with the line about coercing the "fucking nerds," it's serious?
• peterwwillis 11y ago
  "tl;dr: the developers rule in this realm." SUPER cringe-worthy. This is internet justice at it's most painful and awkward.
• sundaeofshock 11y ago
  Hackathons just need to go away. I can't think of any other industry where people give aways thousands of dollars of their own labor (over a weekend), on the off chance they might win a negligible cash prize. Are there law/medicine/MBA-a-thons? Of course not! Those folks have professional conferences and networking events where they can meet new people and explore new ideas. What they don't do is give their time away. The only times I work without pay is when I'm working on my own projects or for a non-profit. Everyone else pays for my time. I don't work for free. And until the bulk of tech folks have the same attitude, tech folks will continue to be exploited.
  • caseysoftware 11y ago
    Think of a hackathon as a musician's jam session. You get together with some people you know, some you don't, play with some ideas, experiment and fail, come up with some cool things, drink some beer, and don't sleep enough. The point is risk-free experimentation and a learning opportunity. The point of Startup Weekend is not to be the next big idea. * I've organized 3-4 Startup Weekends, attended a few more, organized dozens of hackathons, and attended more than that.
  • zem 11y ago
    that sort of hackathon needs to go away. a hackathon used to be an event where people got together and worked on some cool open source project or non-profit initiative, and the main goal was to collaboratively build or advance the state of a project. possibly still is, outside of silicon valley culture.
  • MatthewMcDonald 11y ago
    Counterpoint: I don't think most people at Startup Weekend attend because of the prizes. I've taken part in many events, and while I certainly tried to win, the prizes have zero influence on my participation. I never go in with the expectation of anything more than a fun weekend and new connections.
    • sundaeofshock 11y ago
      I definitely understand all that. Might point is that we can get all that without giving away our time for free. The core of many hack-a-thons is that we are asked to do a quick prototype and validate an idea. We should be paid for that work! There are plenty of meet-ups and networking events to make new connections, as well as plenty of events where we can code and learn with like minded folks.
• Bjorkbat 11y ago
  This is why I don't exactly hold Startup Weekend in high regard. I think it's a good idea, and I think the people who organize these things are (mostly) alright, but unfortunately they more often than not attract creeps looking for some people to build them a free website for their shitty idea. I still go, mostly because where I live (Albuquerque) we have such a small tech community that I try to make little efforts to grow and support it, but I never work in someone else's team, unless they're a developer like me, they have a cool idea, and they're genuinely thoughtful. But I have to agree with others in that the way Bobby handled it could have gone better. Contracts aren't allowed at Startup Weekend and violate the spirit of the event. If you want to protect yourself, don't give him the code. If you did give him the code, relax, most Startup Weekend code is so hacky that he'll have to start over. Just breathe, get over it, let this asshole continue with his life. If he's successful and you resent that, you can probably get away with competing against him with a better product. His tech team probably consists of a bunch of college interns who only know Java. I'm glad he's talking about this though, because this happens way too often at these kinds of events, and more people need to know that despite the cool marketing and the hype, these events can attract the worst. Don't avoid them though, they can be fun, but you have to make them fun. Avoid the people who's sleaziness gives you a bad vibe.
• throwaway1014 11y ago
  His facebook username is "billy.giordano" Looks like a grade-a tool
  • dharma1 11y ago
    His face should have been a warning sign
• zekethefreak 11y ago
  Here's Billy's fb page: https://www.facebook.com/billy.giordano https://www.facebook.com/billy.giordano
• volaski 11y ago
  I have a feeling this will be downvoted like hell but objectively speaking, if this Billy guy really wanted to, couldn't he just drop the software and let these "teammates" do whatever they want with it, and hire another developer and start from scratch? I'm saying this because I don't believe there's much value in some software built over a weekend which doesn't have any users yet. (Maybe it does but the users probably came and will come from this Billy guy's sales and marketing due to his expertise). Compare this with for example GroupMe, which is a pure consumer app, which blew up over a hackathon weekend. In this case it was the app (which was built by the team members) that brought users. If one of the founders wanted to go build another groupme clone after the event, he could, but it wouldn't get enough users anyway that way. I am not saying I am rooting for this Billy. He's an asshole and everyone knows that. I'm saying this Bobby guy is not so much better either. I couldn't help feel disgusted reading the entire passive aggressive thread, plus the fact that he posted this on Medium in an attempt to "bully" Billy.
  • dba7dba 11y ago
    Billy had 18 months, 18 months to work on the idea. Obviously he couldn't find designers/coders/PM for the cheap to build it so he went with the bait-and-switch route. I can almost imagine the conversations he had giggling with his partner as the 'fuxxing nerds' were pounding away on the keyboards. Like, "oh my these stupid fuxxing nerds. They may know code but they don't know shxt about business and using people." I prefer passive aggressive over passive passive (aka slave). If the story is true, Billy deserves the 'bullying'. Did you read the shxt he tried to pull on the coders? "I had the idea for 18 months and filed for LLC, so I own it." Really? Yes, I think your comment deserves a downvote...
    • rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
      One of my college roommates was the tech for a student startup that had worked on getting off the ground for a while. He was like the 3rd or 4th guy to take over tech as previous people left. The founders weren't bad people, they just didn't understand the tech side of a tech startup. Give people like that enough failure with engineers they try to onboard, mix in a little ethical fluidity, and after a while they'll see no distinction between dedicated teammates and expendable assets who will fold before putting in the "hustle" for "your" vision.
• roneesh 11y ago
  As much as I want to identify with the writer of this, it's hard to. A seasoned dev, especially in startups should know that a Startup Weekend can be amateur hour when it comes to people knowing the rules and norms of business. There are many ways to do startup weekend right, but being the dev for someone else's vision is almost certainly one of the wrong ways to handle that weekend, it just breeds too many resentments. The author is right, the devs have the power now, so why did they cede it?
• deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
• dba7dba 11y ago
  Dang, after all that work and sacrifice (missing little bro's birthday) and you won something you canNOT even wipe down your floor with.
• andyidsinga 11y ago
  The "Tower of Babel" problem at events like startup weekend is an interesting phenomenon to experience first hand. I did a startup weekend once ..and came away thinking this: - better to have a small number of developers : ~2 , maybe 3 max. 1 is probably just fine for the weekend. - better to have a smaller number of people on the whole team - maybe 3-4 max. The more they can tee up potential customers the better. EDIT: the nuance here is around the numbers of people. In a normal startup situation its harder to get bigger than 2-3 people at the very beginning. But at a startup weekend like event if you have a charismatic team lead all of a sudden you'll have 8 or 10 people (this was possible back when I attended SW). So, the goal here is, if you're the team lead, resist collecting a large number of people, and if you a developer/doer, resist joining a team with a large number of people.
• danvoell 11y ago
  This is great stuff, thanks for sharing. I wonder how often this happens and to this level. I am guessing it is more often than people realize. The expectations going into these types of events often vary greatly.