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> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. Did you stop to help any of th

> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question. On a longer note - observant Muslims just rub the Europeans the wrong way. Because they pit against each other 2 strongly held beliefs - religious freedom and women are totally equal - politically, sexually and everything else to men. Until Islam reforms in Europe - it will only become worse. We tamed the Christian Church - but right now it seems that secularism is under attack. You will see how better will be received (lets hope it does not get to it) refugees from Ukraine or Armenia or Georgia. Let the downvotes begin ...

kshatrea 11y ago
I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is precisely due to the conflicts between these two groups. It isn't Islam that is the problem though. There are several Muslims, especially in Sweden that have integrated quite well. I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. Indians by all means(I am one) don't integrate that well either (in clothes or social and religious habits) but they don't seem to receive that much vitriol. I feel the inequality of women is one reason for the negative reputation of Muslim residents(I can't find precise stats online right now but the percentage of non-working Muslim women is much higher than in other religious groups) and the amount of children they have per family is more leading to more welfare[0]. [0] I don't have stats right now so I can't prove this but I can anecdotally prove it based on conversations with many Swedes and Danes.
- tomjen3 11y ago
  As a Dane I don't know much about Indians, but the Chinese haven't integrated much, but they work hard and aren't trouble so why should we hate them? Roma (or gysis) on the other hand - tons of criminals, so very unpopular. Muslims are a mixed bag. Lots of them own small businesses, if you buy a pizza chances are you will be served by a muslim. On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim, despite the fact that they are not a large part of the population. Add to that Denmark has really short sentences _and_ we generally don't deport people even if they are gang leaders and you can see why there are lots of people who don't like muslims. Anyway much of this could be avoided if we were tougher on crime, or much more discriminating in who we let in.
  - kshatrea 11y ago
    Absolutely, and the tougher on crime motif is one of the things that makes DF very popular. In Gothenburg, Sweden for instance the Roma are everywhere, outside most large stores and have a bustling begging operation and there is plenty of theft which make them highly unpopular. You're right that crime (especially in Scandinavia which is highly peaceable) is one reason why certain communities are despised. But I feel that refugees also have certain other problems - they've never been to school in many cases and therefore their children have disadvantages in such high tech nations, which causes inequality to rise and so on and so forth. This topic is going to lead to many PhDs in the future, but in the mean time lets see what happens...
    - tomjen3 11y ago
      People don't tend to have visceral reactions to socioeconomic trends, so I doubt that would be the cause of hatred against muslims but I know they do get that visceral reaction to fear. Inequality may be a problem in the future, but that is a solvable problem so long as they are willing to work hard.
  - grkvlt 11y ago
    > if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim WTF? This, along with the parent comment about 'muslims have more children, so they get more welfare' are both hideously racist. If there were any statistics available to back these statements up, don't you think the far right would be trumpeting them for all they're worth? Instead, we get anecdata, and these shoddily cherry-picked anecotes are rarely verifiable. I would like to downvote both comments, but instead I am going to content myself replying like this...
  - dang 11y ago
    > On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim Whoa. That sounds like a nasty slur. You can't do that here.
- negamax 11y ago
  As an Indian living in Europe, I disagree with you about Indians not being integrated. Well, depends on which part TBH as Europe is so different depending on the direction. But I have no issues whatsoever in Ireland. and have friends from all over.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  >I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. IMHO, the problem is language - i.e. immigrants speak theirs, and natives 'speak theirs'. Natives are unwilling to allow another language into their lives, whereas immigrants are forced to learn another language in order to survive - in both cases, it is a lot of work to learn a new language. I wish it were compulsory to learn at least 2 foreign languages in European countries - sure, there is the defacto 'English as a second language' standard, which has produced a lot of tolerance in previously warring societies, it has to be admitted - but wouldn't it be great if we all were encouraged, somehow, to .. say .. learn Farsi .. as a means of solving the big European problem of integration, immigration, and internationalization? I mean, it really only makes sense for the Western European powers to promote polyglotism given our current circumstances. I think I'd be happier about immigration if my kids grew up learning the language of the immigrants in our land, alongside their native tongue, anyway .. I'll be doing my best to encourage my kids to learn languages of the immigrants during the course of their lives.
  - morgante 11y ago
    If you're moving to live in a new country, it seems pretty sensible that you should have to learn the language of your new home.
    - fit2rule 11y ago
      Sure, you should 'have to' .. anything less would be tantamount to accepting a major cultural shift akin to warfare. But then again, I think there is a lot of room for people to accept social responsibility for the human issue of immigration, and I think any social system which encourages people to learn languages outside their own is bound to produce a more tolerant, resilient society. Right now, so much hate and prejudice is predicated on the assumption that "they don't speak our language" .. if, for example, it were considered highly illegal to ever go to war against someone whose language you cannot speak, this would be a better state of affairs. "Kill no man whose language you have not learned" might be the mantra I'm going for here ..
lordnacho 11y ago
> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. > Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question. Help them how exactly? They were going the opposite way to me. You do know that they armed with knives as well, right? I'm sure you'd stop too with your wife, baby, and personal belongings. Tut-tut.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- venomsnake 11y ago
  I would not stop. But I also don't pretend to care if they live or die. For me national borders are sacrosanct, so you have no good reason to break one. But you gave the answer - a few generations ago people were not afraid. Now even people like you are afraid of them. But if they carry knives and their first instinct is to stab any stranger that offers them help - why do we want them in Europe then :P
  - lordnacho 11y ago
    What you're saying is you don't care if they live or die. Really? Your fellow human beings? You're happy for your elected officials to just leave things more or less in the current state?
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      No. I want my elected officials to create effective system that prevents them on landing on the shores in the first place. And well ... they are not my fellow human beings. I long ago shed my humanitarian beliefs.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
  - bbcbasic 11y ago
negamax 11y ago
This completely captures the crux of the problems. Also, Europe is extremely safe and liberal as compared to US and even a small crime goes a long way in making people take note.
noir_lord 11y ago
As a Brit and someone who leans to the left, I've no issue with us as a society taking people in who require aid but that has to come with conditions attached primarily that they respect the culture they want to settle in. That said I've also no interest in taking more people in who think that intolerance of their intolerance is wrong, enough of this already, the liberals (at least that part of it I don't consider myself a part of) have been grappling with this issue for a while "How do you respect the beliefs of people who don't respect your beliefs" and they still don't have a clear answer. Here in the UK we've had numerous cases of child sexual abuse (rape, sexual slavery, passing girls around up to 60 men and some shit I don't ever want to read again) against vulnerable (overwhelmingly white) girls perpetrated by what the media euphemistically calls "asian" men (but in reality have been way over 90% Muslim's of Pakistani descent), the councils, authorities and the police knew this was happening but where so worried about the political fallout of been seen to target (even though they where committing the crime) members of the Muslim Pakistani community they backed off and basically looked the other way (even when members of that community where publicly speaking out about the problem!). 1400 vulnerable often in care white girls in Rotherham alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banbury_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banbury_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury_sex_gang Estimates of the numbers abused runs into the thousands if not tens of thousands. I number amongst my friends many people of indian and pakistani descent and they are just the same as anyone else in that they are appalled about this stuff - to the extent they are angry that the authorities didn't crack down on it, they know they get tarred with the same brush and that is tragic.
- atmosx 11y ago
  I lean as left as there is to go, but reality hits you at some point: There are neighborhoods in Athens where you can't walk at night because of Pakistani gangs. These neighborhoods voted for Golden Dawn because they supported them (by violently removing the Paki-gangs). Of course GD didn't stop at the gangs, they removed everyone who wasn't looking Greek enough. You can't solve this problem by hosting people. You solve this problem by actively supporting anti-WAR campaings and removing from power parties who made/support wars. All these Syrian refugees (God help them) who pass through Greece wanna go in central Europe and the UK. They do not intend to stay here (Greece). Some will stuck here, some will pass the borders... These were create by the NATO (Greece is part of the NATO and the UK is a strong member of the NATO). That's why every time you hear someone talking about "attacking" a country in middle east, you should really think about where all these people will go...

kshatrea 11y ago

I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is precisely due to the conflicts between these two groups. It isn't Islam that is the problem though. There are several Muslims, especially in Sweden that have integrated quite well. I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. Indians by all means(I am one) don't integrate that well either (in clothes or social and religious habits) but they don't seem to receive that much vitriol. I feel the inequality of women is one reason for the negative reputation of Muslim residents(I can't find precise stats online right now but the percentage of non-working Muslim women is much higher than in other religious groups) and the amount of children they have per family is more leading to more welfare[0]. [0] I don't have stats right now so I can't prove this but I can anecdotally prove it based on conversations with many Swedes and Danes.

tomjen3 11y ago
As a Dane I don't know much about Indians, but the Chinese haven't integrated much, but they work hard and aren't trouble so why should we hate them? Roma (or gysis) on the other hand - tons of criminals, so very unpopular. Muslims are a mixed bag. Lots of them own small businesses, if you buy a pizza chances are you will be served by a muslim. On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim, despite the fact that they are not a large part of the population. Add to that Denmark has really short sentences _and_ we generally don't deport people even if they are gang leaders and you can see why there are lots of people who don't like muslims. Anyway much of this could be avoided if we were tougher on crime, or much more discriminating in who we let in.
- kshatrea 11y ago
  Absolutely, and the tougher on crime motif is one of the things that makes DF very popular. In Gothenburg, Sweden for instance the Roma are everywhere, outside most large stores and have a bustling begging operation and there is plenty of theft which make them highly unpopular. You're right that crime (especially in Scandinavia which is highly peaceable) is one reason why certain communities are despised. But I feel that refugees also have certain other problems - they've never been to school in many cases and therefore their children have disadvantages in such high tech nations, which causes inequality to rise and so on and so forth. This topic is going to lead to many PhDs in the future, but in the mean time lets see what happens...
  - tomjen3 11y ago
    People don't tend to have visceral reactions to socioeconomic trends, so I doubt that would be the cause of hatred against muslims but I know they do get that visceral reaction to fear. Inequality may be a problem in the future, but that is a solvable problem so long as they are willing to work hard.
- grkvlt 11y ago
  > if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim WTF? This, along with the parent comment about 'muslims have more children, so they get more welfare' are both hideously racist. If there were any statistics available to back these statements up, don't you think the far right would be trumpeting them for all they're worth? Instead, we get anecdata, and these shoddily cherry-picked anecotes are rarely verifiable. I would like to downvote both comments, but instead I am going to content myself replying like this...
- dang 11y ago
  > On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim Whoa. That sounds like a nasty slur. You can't do that here.
negamax 11y ago
As an Indian living in Europe, I disagree with you about Indians not being integrated. Well, depends on which part TBH as Europe is so different depending on the direction. But I have no issues whatsoever in Ireland. and have friends from all over.
fit2rule 11y ago
>I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. IMHO, the problem is language - i.e. immigrants speak theirs, and natives 'speak theirs'. Natives are unwilling to allow another language into their lives, whereas immigrants are forced to learn another language in order to survive - in both cases, it is a lot of work to learn a new language. I wish it were compulsory to learn at least 2 foreign languages in European countries - sure, there is the defacto 'English as a second language' standard, which has produced a lot of tolerance in previously warring societies, it has to be admitted - but wouldn't it be great if we all were encouraged, somehow, to .. say .. learn Farsi .. as a means of solving the big European problem of integration, immigration, and internationalization? I mean, it really only makes sense for the Western European powers to promote polyglotism given our current circumstances. I think I'd be happier about immigration if my kids grew up learning the language of the immigrants in our land, alongside their native tongue, anyway .. I'll be doing my best to encourage my kids to learn languages of the immigrants during the course of their lives.
- morgante 11y ago
  If you're moving to live in a new country, it seems pretty sensible that you should have to learn the language of your new home.
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    Sure, you should 'have to' .. anything less would be tantamount to accepting a major cultural shift akin to warfare. But then again, I think there is a lot of room for people to accept social responsibility for the human issue of immigration, and I think any social system which encourages people to learn languages outside their own is bound to produce a more tolerant, resilient society. Right now, so much hate and prejudice is predicated on the assumption that "they don't speak our language" .. if, for example, it were considered highly illegal to ever go to war against someone whose language you cannot speak, this would be a better state of affairs. "Kill no man whose language you have not learned" might be the mantra I'm going for here ..

lordnacho 11y ago

> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. > Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question. Help them how exactly? They were going the opposite way to me. You do know that they armed with knives as well, right? I'm sure you'd stop too with your wife, baby, and personal belongings. Tut-tut.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
venomsnake 11y ago
I would not stop. But I also don't pretend to care if they live or die. For me national borders are sacrosanct, so you have no good reason to break one. But you gave the answer - a few generations ago people were not afraid. Now even people like you are afraid of them. But if they carry knives and their first instinct is to stab any stranger that offers them help - why do we want them in Europe then :P
- lordnacho 11y ago
  What you're saying is you don't care if they live or die. Really? Your fellow human beings? You're happy for your elected officials to just leave things more or less in the current state?
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    No. I want my elected officials to create effective system that prevents them on landing on the shores in the first place. And well ... they are not my fellow human beings. I long ago shed my humanitarian beliefs.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- bbcbasic 11y ago

negamax 11y ago

This completely captures the crux of the problems. Also, Europe is extremely safe and liberal as compared to US and even a small crime goes a long way in making people take note.

noir_lord 11y ago

As a Brit and someone who leans to the left, I've no issue with us as a society taking people in who require aid but that has to come with conditions attached primarily that they respect the culture they want to settle in. That said I've also no interest in taking more people in who think that intolerance of their intolerance is wrong, enough of this already, the liberals (at least that part of it I don't consider myself a part of) have been grappling with this issue for a while "How do you respect the beliefs of people who don't respect your beliefs" and they still don't have a clear answer. Here in the UK we've had numerous cases of child sexual abuse (rape, sexual slavery, passing girls around up to 60 men and some shit I don't ever want to read again) against vulnerable (overwhelmingly white) girls perpetrated by what the media euphemistically calls "asian" men (but in reality have been way over 90% Muslim's of Pakistani descent), the councils, authorities and the police knew this was happening but where so worried about the political fallout of been seen to target (even though they where committing the crime) members of the Muslim Pakistani community they backed off and basically looked the other way (even when members of that community where publicly speaking out about the problem!). 1400 vulnerable often in care white girls in Rotherham alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banbury_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banbury_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury_sex_gang Estimates of the numbers abused runs into the thousands if not tens of thousands. I number amongst my friends many people of indian and pakistani descent and they are just the same as anyone else in that they are appalled about this stuff - to the extent they are angry that the authorities didn't crack down on it, they know they get tarred with the same brush and that is tragic.

atmosx 11y ago
I lean as left as there is to go, but reality hits you at some point: There are neighborhoods in Athens where you can't walk at night because of Pakistani gangs. These neighborhoods voted for Golden Dawn because they supported them (by violently removing the Paki-gangs). Of course GD didn't stop at the gangs, they removed everyone who wasn't looking Greek enough. You can't solve this problem by hosting people. You solve this problem by actively supporting anti-WAR campaings and removing from power parties who made/support wars. All these Syrian refugees (God help them) who pass through Greece wanna go in central Europe and the UK. They do not intend to stay here (Greece). Some will stuck here, some will pass the borders... These were create by the NATO (Greece is part of the NATO and the UK is a strong member of the NATO). That's why every time you hear someone talking about "attacking" a country in middle east, you should really think about where all these people will go...