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Django Girls one year later
- mozumder 11y agoThe slide illustrations are brilliant. Refreshing to see that level of art direction at a tech conference.
- wyldfire 11y agoI like them too. I was going to show this to my daughter but after reviewing the slides, I think I'd prefer not to focus on whatever negativity/discrimination occurs in the industry but rather the positive aspects of encouragement/camaraderie/sorority. It's probably appropriate for women and girls who have encountered those setbacks but my daughter's old enough to benefit from programming but young/naive enough not to have seen much of the frustrations cited in the slides.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- bronson 11y agoYes! I want a poster of triumphant squirrel in my office.
- pbhjpbhj 11y agoYou can see the woman's touch! /jk
- joe_the_user 11y agoThe room is decorated with flowers and balloons, rather than being a "boring classroom" and they do fun things like cupcake tasting or yoga during the day. I suppose that could attract a certain audience but I think a number of girls could feel a bit uncomfortable being pigeon-holed as liking all things "girly". When I was in High School I would have been aghast if someone held a "guy's programming workshop" with weight-lifting and sports-talk.
- ZenoArrow 11y agoYou're overthinking it. They're doing those things because they're fun things to do. If someone gave a programming workshop and had a games room where you could play arcade games, air hockey, shoot pool and play pinball on your breaks, I certainly wouldn't complain. I'd even like trying yoga and cupcakes!
- Udo 11y agoI agree that Joe is probably overthinking it, but at the same time, I would be turned off to find myself at a programming event that plays up my "maleness" by stuffing in lots of sports things ;) On the other hand, I find flowers infinitely less annoying than football, so... One of the deeper issues that will probably never go away for many people in tech (no matter their gender) is the realization that completely fitting in is unlikely to ever happen, and that maybe this is a good thing. To pick up one of the metaphors used in the article: yes, if you're a squirrel, at first glance it may seem that all the other creatures in the forest are completely identical badgers - but upon further investigation it turns out they're all aliens from thousands of different planets, each wearing badly-made badger costumes [which, by the way, is also almost exactly the narrative of the original presentation - just watched it].
- ZenoArrow 11y ago> "I agree that Joe is probably overthinking it, but at the same time, I would be turned off to find myself at a programming event that plays up my "maleness" by stuffing in lots of sports things ;) On the other hand, I find flowers infinitely less annoying than football, so..." The issue isn't really the things, but in feigning interest in the things that don't interest you. You don't have to pretend to like something, but at the same time you can still find ways to share time with those that do. You cannot design an event which is all things to all people, the answer to being inclusionary is not to be dull, instead it's about inspiring people, and you might as well have some fun trying to do it.
- joe_the_user 11y agoThey're doing those things because they're fun things to do There are games and activities that don't gender stamped all over them, yes. But cupcakes and yoga are pretty close to the activities which have some gender-attachments.
- boxy310 11y agoGoing through their website, it seems like one of the best Django tutorials I've seen, irrespective of gender.
- keithpeter 11y agoDisclaimer: I'm a civilian as regards coding but I work as a teacher and I mentor new teachers... The pedagogic design is really good as well, see the Coaching Guide and Organiser's Manual. This is quality stuff.
- DarkTree 11y agoedit: I've been corrected, but will leave up for the argument's sake I am not trying to attack you, more so just commenting on this type of phrasing. Wouldn't it be more effective to simple say, "Going through their website, it seems like one of the best Django tutorials I've seen" -without the gender comment at all? Reading that comment, it made me think that normally you consider gender when you consider the quality of a tutorial, but in this specific incidence, it doesn't even matter. Just something minor to think about.
- vezzy-fnord 11y agoWell, the subject in question is already explicitly gendered, so making a remark like that isn't out of place.
- DarkTree 11y agoyeah that's fair actually. I guess it would only matter if he introduced it to the conversation. Well put.
- gohrt 11y agoThe article has "Girls" in the title. GP didn't drag gender into the conversation.
- GFischer 11y agoI'm a novice at both Django and Python, and their tutorial was the best one I found (not knowing their history or gender or anything). I didn't follow it through though :P I mean to learn it someday but other stuff keeps getting higher priority.
- belorn 11y agoIn every work environment which has an clear gender imbalance we see the same stories of the minority group being pushed out by the majority group. The minority group feel pressured to be more majority-like to fit in, receive comments like "you are good for a minority person", and feel a social expectancy to be more like the majority group. Those who don't behave correctly report of being silenced and treated in a very hostile way and normally end up leaving the profession shortly afterward. This kind of gender inequality is then seen in 90% of all profession (Swedish statistics from SCB in 2010) where the top 3 have less than 1% of a minority gender. When reading this kind article I wonder how useful it is to pitch it as a fight between badgers and squirrels. 87% of squirrels work in a profession hostile to badgers, and 88% of badgers work in a profession hostile to squirrels. Having been personally in both environments once, even if it was a very short time, I can't help to see a big lack of common understanding of each sides plight when they are a minority.
- Kalium 11y agoIt's always easier to pitch it as "Those ABCs are mean to us DEFs". It comes with a neat moral clarity that is lost when you have to consider that DEFs treat ABCs similarly in analogous situations. I was going to use X and Y before I thought about chromosomes.
- Udo 11y agoI'm also not so sure if it's productive in the long term to portray it as a fight at all, but short-term it probably helps to give these initiatives a little bit of personality (people like to partake in things that feel competitive). Watching the presentation, however, 'escalating conflict' does not seem to be a core message here. It would certainly feel more natural if the squirrels and badgers were equally well represented. When we reach that point squirrel identity will become just as diluted as badger identity. As long as you're a minority, you can stick together by defining it as a common trait, but that sort of thing will dissolve very quickly in larger numbers. Being a squirrel (or being a badger) is not an identity, but it may seem that way as long as you're the only squirrel in a badger forest. This is all a bit long-winded way of saying "I think it will be alright in the end".
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- pekk 11y agoDo you want to go to those workshops? Why?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- keithpeter 11y agoWell, if you Google 'women only training' from google.co.uk you get a fair selection of workshops, many provided by registered charities so I imagine the legal aspects are well sorted out. Nothing stopping us using the materials according to the licence [1] to organise open events. [1] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/
- willyk 11y agoit's awesome to see this progress, thanks for sharing and the awesome work
- anon3_ 11y agoI guess it's great news for women. Isn't this going to create bitterness and animosity between genders? Why don't men get a leg up? What's to keep these from bestowing attitude of entitlement in women? I already hear some of the most vocal women in tech trying to ban the word merit.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- AlexNeoNomad 11y agoWhy can't women just learn Django? Is it necessary to create an organisation for it?
- bayesianhorse 11y agoAs far as I understand it, there is a misconception that women are bad at programming, or don't like it, or whatever. So yes, motivating women to learn Django is a necessary task if diversity is to be increase.
- AlexNeoNomad 11y agoI'm going to create an organization for one of my libraries written in Rust. Hey, fans of "frank_jwt" - join me.
- marincounty 11y agoI've been waiting for good tutorials for to many years. I come from the 500 page computer phone books! I would go to B & N--and literally pick up a phone book--filled with confusion/pontification/useless diagrams/filler? I would pick these books up, and wonder "Who reads these?" At first, I blamed the Editors.(I just figured the person/persons didn't understand the material, and only corrected serious grammatical errors?) As years went by, books/tutorials became better, but even the better ones Left Out Steps? They just expected me to know what they are poorly writing about? If the information was free--fine? It bothered me when I paid $39.99 for a poorly written technical manual. (I will pay for thin books! I've never picked up a book, and felt weight equated with cost. The thinner the better?) I went through Djanjo Girls tutorial and with every page--it felt good. It was to the point. It didn't leave out steps. Yes, I will repeat; it didn't leave out steps! It didn't go off on tangents. I wish them well. To any future writers out there; less is more. I've thought about writing a technical manual, and I am seriously considering using a cartoon format. Maybe not literally, but less is more. There's no need for overly long sentences, and pages to explain what could fit in a well written paragraph. If a topic is important, put an askerick in the margin?(As a reader, I take those Tips seriously. I will read other material, until I grasp what you are trying to get across.) To those of you just starting out in Computing--it is definetly easier to learn this stuff now.
- fooballs 11y agoYou don't beat sexism by creating a sexist organisation. It's amazing how people think that there are all these barriers to programming for certain groups of people which must be overcome. There aren't. Sit down, grab a computer and a book, and learn to code. If you're good at it, you'll get a job, and people will respect you. If you can't learn to code on your own, you probably don't have the mental skills necessary to be a good coder. (Critical thinking, drive, determination etc).
- indubitably 11y agoAh yes, the convenient argument that the world is truly a meritocracy, and that those in positions of power, who evaluate merit, have no biases. I do not know whether you are in a position of power, but I note that this argument is often advanced by people in positions of power.
- sfk 11y agoWhere are the 50% of open source projects that should have been started by women? Or are they deleted from the Internet by those in power?
- ryannevius 11y agoI think you've completely misunderstood what @indubitably was trying to say...
- bayesianhorse 11y agoIt's a BS argument. A lot less than 50% of programmers are women, so there is no way 50% of open source projects (as a sign of merit, as I understand you) could be started by women.
- fooballs 11y agoAnd the reason there are less women programmers, is because less women want to be programmers. Just as less men want to become fashion designers. There is nothing to "solve" here. Let people do what they want to do.
- anon3_ 11y agoWhy not just make your way into take like everyone else? Why are girls special? Why do they get red carpet treatment? That's going to give us a workforce of a lot of women who feel entitlement beats merit.
- bayesianhorse 11y agoDjangoGirls is very good at on-boarding women. They provide a non-threatening and positive environment to get over the first hurdles in developing. They focus on that area, they are great at it, and why should we criticize them for this? I generally think these kinds of "reverse discrimination" arguments are mainly BS. There definitely is discrimination or at least unfavorable biases about gender in technology. Diversity initiatives don't even come close to compensating these disadvantages.
- anon3_ 11y agoPeople have disadvantages, especially white men. Who comprise most of tech. You can bet we have to live with any disadvantages and no ones giving us sympathy Why onboard women? Why give them silver spoons? Why is this a thing?
- bayesianhorse 11y agoWhite male privilege doesn't mean you have it easy. It's just that as a black person or woman or both, you have it a lot less easy. DjangoGirls is no "silver spoon" by any means. It's hard work and many of the participants struggle to get through the tutorial in a day. Still, this "silver spoon" as you put it, doesn't come close to equalizing the evident discrimination.
- shellbye 11y agoThis is a great project!
- wvh 11y agoI like the way they have written the story without sounding overly accusing. I'm a hardcore coder and security guy, but beyond technical skills I don't really fit into typical IT environments and often plan to leave the business altogether and do something completely different. There are a lot of men too who find the mono-culture in the industry hard and feel like outsiders. I'm not sure that's helpful to women feeling isolated; but we can hope the industry slowly recognises the problem and learns to attract a more diverse group of people with a more diverse set of skills that will enable a more diverse set of solutions. Take the graphics in the presentation: in my last project, we struggled (and failed) to find anybody with both technical and artistic skills. People with artistic skills rarely show up for technical jobs it seems, and that's a pity.