4 ms·

Your sarcasm is entertaining, but the big difference is that while neither company/product is perfect, Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows

Your sarcasm is entertaining, but the big difference is that while neither company/product is perfect, Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows. While Mozilla's Firefox is just one among several choices of web browser, currently #3 in the rankings. It is extremely easy to switch web browser. It is not easy to switch OS. On a Windows machine, if you are savvy enough, you can install Linux, but otherwise, you need to buy a Mac in order to avoid Windows. And you need to learn a lot in order to drop Windows (easy for us here on HN, hard for 99% of people). It's fine if you dislike some of Mozilla's decisions with Firefox. People have complained and in fact Mozilla has changed some decisions following that criticism. But the situation is just not comparable to Microsoft with Windows. For that reason, I don't see a point to diverting the conversation. The topic here is Windows 10.

anotherangrydev 11y ago
>Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. I'm gonna highlight another another big difference that you seemed to overlook. Microsoft is a company, their mission is to generate profits for their shareholders and they are the owners of Windows 10, because they developed it. Mozilla is a non-profit corporation whose main product, Firefox, is software that has been developed and tested (to a big extent) by people who do not get paid a single cent, because they have faith in the project and the overall mission that Mozilla attempts to portrait. Now, I really want to understand your side, please explain, how come what Microsoft did with Windows was wrong but what Mozilla did with Firefox was ok? Edit: Downvotes, but no arguments, as expected.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  How about this: It was wrong for Microsoft, and it was wrong for Mozilla. But it's worse when it's Microsoft, because it's easier to move to a different browser than to move to a different OS, and so it's harder to escape Microsoft's attempts to force you to do what they want you to. Also, Microsoft has much more of a history of deliberately doing this to people, and so the suspicion is higher with Microsoft. Mozilla might get the benefit of the doubt; Microsoft does not.
  - chinpokomon 11y ago
    Is it harder to move to a different browser in Windows 10? I feel like you keep emphasizing how easy it is to change your browser and yet are still registering a complaint. I'm not sure what you are complaining about.
    - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
      First, you may be confusing me with another poster; I don't feel like your comment reflects my other posts on this article. I don't "keep emphasizing" how easy it is to change your browser. I don't know if it's harder or easier to move to a different browser in Windows 10. I presume it's about the same, but it may be harder. I don't think that alters my point whatsoever. My complaint is that Microsoft is making it difficult for users to do what the users want, if that's different from what Microsoft wants them to do. My position is that it's significantly worse when the OS does that to you than when an application - any application - does that, because it's much harder to switch OS than to switch an application. (If you're a large business, your ERP or, worse, database, may be the exception to this, but those aren't really the topic of this thread.)
    - Tyr42 11y ago
      I think it is much more difficult to switch to a different default browser in Windows 10. With Chrome at least, you used be be able to set it to your default browser when is asked on first launch, with only a click or two. Now that API is deprecated and removed, and users have to click 11 times through the settings to set the default browser. Much worse. And this is after it sneakily sets Edge as the default browser when upgrading, with only a small blue on blue "customize" link to a unlabeled setting to opt out.
      - fuj 11y ago
        This is such bs, first time I opened Chrome in Windows 10 after upgrading it asked to set chrome as the default browser.
    - girvo 11y ago
      It's quite a bit more difficult. Last week I set a Windows 8 PC to use Chrome as the default; this was simple, two clicks and you're done. Now, it dumps you to a settings page which is a significant increase in steps required to set Chrome as the default. Those are the facts of this, however one can certainly make arguments as to why this is a better way of doing things for Windows.
- brighteyes 11y ago
  I actually didn't say that what Microsoft did was wrong. It's a complex issue, and you can see multiple points of view in the HN discussion here. I am not convinced that what Microsoft did was wrong, or that it wasn't wrong. I am just sad to see people try to divert the conversation from the topic of Microsoft and Windows 10.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tn13 11y ago
  Finally someone who talks sense. Microsoft could as well ban Firefox on their OS if they want to. Reality is that with Google Chrome, Mozilla has become completely irrelevant and will eventually die out. They can innovate but they chose to fire their CEO over some petty reasons and they are building some phone which has not seen light of the day for years.
- joe_the_user 11y ago
  So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. Yes they are. Those who own one or another monopoly-type chokepoints are required to do the right thing in the sense of not abusing their monopolies. ISP are required to connect you to the real internet rather than a walled-garden simulation, Airline are required to not to hold their passengers ransom for more at intermediate point in travel, Healthcare companies are required to provide real health care etc.
  - tn13 11y ago
    Yes, and is Apple required to open their platform to porn apps ? This is USA where private property rights are supposedly important despite government's attempts in other direction.
    - foiboitoi 11y ago
      The "they can do what ever they want with their private property" argument doesn't matter. This isn't about what they can do, it's about what should be done. No nothing should be required of these organisations. But their products serve humanity. They SHOULD have a sense of moral obligation to do the right thing. As should we the people have the responsibility to hold private monopolies to high standards so as that they help most people (not just shareholders).
    - Qwertious 11y ago
      Apple controls a negligible portion of the desktop market. Microsoft absolutely dominates. Anti-trust is about protecting the free market from natural monopolies, and Apple is by no means a monopoly. A walled garden? Absolutely. But not a monopoly.
    - toyg 11y ago
      > is Apple required to open their platform to porn apps ? If they reached the same percentage numbers on mobile that Microsoft has on desktop, yes they would be.
- ncr100 11y ago
  Ah .. well there's that related Antitrust Lawsuit Microsoft lost in 2001. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
tn13 11y ago
Mozilla is becoming irrelevant in modern market and their response seems to be to blame others. I had guessed it when they fired their CEO over some ridiculous issue. Windows is bigger does not mean they have any obligation to give space to others. Does Apple let you install YouPorn App on your iphone ? Does Google let you replace default search with Bing if you want ? Both Android and iOS are immensely successful and both are on tight leash of Apple and Google. The reality is that, that tight leash has made user experience much much better. My father likes to surf net on his Android phone because his laptop is full of Ask and Conduit toolbars and he has no idea how they go there. The world of Internet is now enough complex that it pays to let one company keep everything on tight leash and Microsoft's move in that direction makes a lot of sense.
- fpgeek 11y ago
  > Does Google let you replace default search with Bing if you want ? Why yes, they do. If you want, you can even replace Google Now with Firefox search (using Yahoo by default, unless you change it).
- realusername 11y ago
  Apple is very far from a market leader, they have something like 20% of the smartphone market, it's maybe the most profitable 20% chunk but it's still 20%. When you have a near-monopoly on a market, you have some obligations regarding the competition that you would not have normally.

anotherangrydev 11y ago

>Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. I'm gonna highlight another another big difference that you seemed to overlook. Microsoft is a company, their mission is to generate profits for their shareholders and they are the owners of Windows 10, because they developed it. Mozilla is a non-profit corporation whose main product, Firefox, is software that has been developed and tested (to a big extent) by people who do not get paid a single cent, because they have faith in the project and the overall mission that Mozilla attempts to portrait. Now, I really want to understand your side, please explain, how come what Microsoft did with Windows was wrong but what Mozilla did with Firefox was ok? Edit: Downvotes, but no arguments, as expected.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
How about this: It was wrong for Microsoft, and it was wrong for Mozilla. But it's worse when it's Microsoft, because it's easier to move to a different browser than to move to a different OS, and so it's harder to escape Microsoft's attempts to force you to do what they want you to. Also, Microsoft has much more of a history of deliberately doing this to people, and so the suspicion is higher with Microsoft. Mozilla might get the benefit of the doubt; Microsoft does not.
- chinpokomon 11y ago
  Is it harder to move to a different browser in Windows 10? I feel like you keep emphasizing how easy it is to change your browser and yet are still registering a complaint. I'm not sure what you are complaining about.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    First, you may be confusing me with another poster; I don't feel like your comment reflects my other posts on this article. I don't "keep emphasizing" how easy it is to change your browser. I don't know if it's harder or easier to move to a different browser in Windows 10. I presume it's about the same, but it may be harder. I don't think that alters my point whatsoever. My complaint is that Microsoft is making it difficult for users to do what the users want, if that's different from what Microsoft wants them to do. My position is that it's significantly worse when the OS does that to you than when an application - any application - does that, because it's much harder to switch OS than to switch an application. (If you're a large business, your ERP or, worse, database, may be the exception to this, but those aren't really the topic of this thread.)
  - Tyr42 11y ago
    I think it is much more difficult to switch to a different default browser in Windows 10. With Chrome at least, you used be be able to set it to your default browser when is asked on first launch, with only a click or two. Now that API is deprecated and removed, and users have to click 11 times through the settings to set the default browser. Much worse. And this is after it sneakily sets Edge as the default browser when upgrading, with only a small blue on blue "customize" link to a unlabeled setting to opt out.
    - fuj 11y ago
      This is such bs, first time I opened Chrome in Windows 10 after upgrading it asked to set chrome as the default browser.
  - girvo 11y ago
    It's quite a bit more difficult. Last week I set a Windows 8 PC to use Chrome as the default; this was simple, two clicks and you're done. Now, it dumps you to a settings page which is a significant increase in steps required to set Chrome as the default. Those are the facts of this, however one can certainly make arguments as to why this is a better way of doing things for Windows.
brighteyes 11y ago
I actually didn't say that what Microsoft did was wrong. It's a complex issue, and you can see multiple points of view in the HN discussion here. I am not convinced that what Microsoft did was wrong, or that it wasn't wrong. I am just sad to see people try to divert the conversation from the topic of Microsoft and Windows 10.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tn13 11y ago
Finally someone who talks sense. Microsoft could as well ban Firefox on their OS if they want to. Reality is that with Google Chrome, Mozilla has become completely irrelevant and will eventually die out. They can innovate but they chose to fire their CEO over some petty reasons and they are building some phone which has not seen light of the day for years.
joe_the_user 11y ago
So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. Yes they are. Those who own one or another monopoly-type chokepoints are required to do the right thing in the sense of not abusing their monopolies. ISP are required to connect you to the real internet rather than a walled-garden simulation, Airline are required to not to hold their passengers ransom for more at intermediate point in travel, Healthcare companies are required to provide real health care etc.
- tn13 11y ago
  Yes, and is Apple required to open their platform to porn apps ? This is USA where private property rights are supposedly important despite government's attempts in other direction.
  - foiboitoi 11y ago
    The "they can do what ever they want with their private property" argument doesn't matter. This isn't about what they can do, it's about what should be done. No nothing should be required of these organisations. But their products serve humanity. They SHOULD have a sense of moral obligation to do the right thing. As should we the people have the responsibility to hold private monopolies to high standards so as that they help most people (not just shareholders).
  - Qwertious 11y ago
    Apple controls a negligible portion of the desktop market. Microsoft absolutely dominates. Anti-trust is about protecting the free market from natural monopolies, and Apple is by no means a monopoly. A walled garden? Absolutely. But not a monopoly.
  - toyg 11y ago
    > is Apple required to open their platform to porn apps ? If they reached the same percentage numbers on mobile that Microsoft has on desktop, yes they would be.
ncr100 11y ago
Ah .. well there's that related Antitrust Lawsuit Microsoft lost in 2001. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

tn13 11y ago

Mozilla is becoming irrelevant in modern market and their response seems to be to blame others. I had guessed it when they fired their CEO over some ridiculous issue. Windows is bigger does not mean they have any obligation to give space to others. Does Apple let you install YouPorn App on your iphone ? Does Google let you replace default search with Bing if you want ? Both Android and iOS are immensely successful and both are on tight leash of Apple and Google. The reality is that, that tight leash has made user experience much much better. My father likes to surf net on his Android phone because his laptop is full of Ask and Conduit toolbars and he has no idea how they go there. The world of Internet is now enough complex that it pays to let one company keep everything on tight leash and Microsoft's move in that direction makes a lot of sense.

fpgeek 11y ago
> Does Google let you replace default search with Bing if you want ? Why yes, they do. If you want, you can even replace Google Now with Firefox search (using Yahoo by default, unless you change it).
realusername 11y ago
Apple is very far from a market leader, they have something like 20% of the smartphone market, it's maybe the most profitable 20% chunk but it's still 20%. When you have a near-monopoly on a market, you have some obligations regarding the competition that you would not have normally.