5 ms·

How is this philosophically different from demanding that your drunk friend (who, you know has always been a bit of a fuck up) surrender his car keys? He alread

by fixxer 11y ago

How is this philosophically different from demanding that your drunk friend (who, you know has always been a bit of a fuck up) surrender his car keys? He already has been to rehab a few times and, if you let him, he's gonna destroy a lot more than just his car. In both cases, it is reasonable given the immediate circumstances. That said, you knew this would happen and you enabled him, so you're still an asshole.

alayne 11y ago
As long as people continue this Greeks are reckless good for nothings myth it is going to be hard to find solutions.
- fixxer 11y ago
  Not my words. Their economy is smaller than Louisiana's, their population is more than twice, and they really, really like entitlements. Sorry if this hurts feelings, but that is not a recipe for success.
  - alextgordon 11y ago
    Yet the "solution" on offer is to keep shrinking their economy??
    - duncan_bayne 11y ago
      That's a very Keynesian perspective. The Austrian (heh) school says that in fact, the tax-and-spend policies favoured by Greek voters harm the economy in a variety of ways, one of which is by encouraging malinvestment. (And I agree with them, FWIW).
- duncan_bayne 11y ago
  Don't try to turn this into an argument about racism. There is something fundamentally, deeply broken with the Greek economy: http://www.lapasserelle.com/billets/greece_GDP_growth.jpg http://www.lapasserelle.com/billets/greece_GDP_growth.jpg No-one with any sense is trying to make this about "Greeks". But there is clearly something wrong with politics and economics in Greece.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Daishiman 11y ago
    In an economic union with no possibility of states to set their own monetary policy, there will always be a squeaky wheel. If this fact is not admitted, there is not point for Greece to be in the union.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - pessimizer 11y ago
    > There is something fundamentally, deeply broken with the Greek economy The current growth rate is a result of austerity, not a bizarre retroactive justification for it.
    - duncan_bayne 11y ago
      I think you're conflating two different issues: a) the Greek economy is currently in debt with no realistic way of repaying it in the short term, and b) Greek politicians have adopted a socialist-minded Keynesian tinkering-around-the-edges that has somehow been named 'austerity'. The root cause of a), and then the body politic adopting b), is broken economic culture: https://mises.org/library/greece%E2%80%99s-biggest-problem-its-anti-capitalist-culture https://mises.org/library/greece%E2%80%99s-biggest-problem-i... "And so it is with Greece. After already securing debt relief and effectively being allowed to default by restructuring its debts over the next fifty years at subsidized interest rates — and after actually achieving economic growth in 2014 by cutting taxes and slashing the size of its sclerotic, bloated government — this toxic Greek culture prevailed once more and elected a team of socialist die-hards to drag it back into the mire. Of course it doesn’t help that on the other side of the negotiating table is another bunch of central planners in the EU, IMF, and ECB. Nevertheless, Greece sits stuck between two central planning negotiation parties because its people have been too busy demanding goodies instead of freedom."
  - seesomesense 11y ago
    "There is a difference between saying that "the Greek people are corrupt" and saying "the Greek government and tax-collection system (or other systems) are corrupt"" Really ? That corrupt Greek government and tax-collection system, who is it staffed by ? The Inuit ?
- afarrell 11y ago
  There is a difference between saying that "the Greek people are corrupt" and saying "the Greek government and tax-collection system (or other systems) are corrupt".
ArkyBeagle 11y ago
It is radically different. Your "drunk friend" is not an allegedly sovereign nation. To conflate these is a pretty serious anthropomorphic fallacy. Either continue with the fiction of nation-states or do without it. That's the choice that will be highlighted.
- techdragon 11y ago
  Compare individual free will and international sovereignty and the metaphor fits well enough.
  - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
    That has to be at the very least "compare/contrast". Individuals may well have free will but it's vastly more difficult to say the same of nation states. The entire EU GDP growth rate is hovering around 1% and has for a very long time. Unless interest rates really are actually zero (or negative), there's no way in the aggregate to beat the vig for debt in Europe at all other than being lucky. That's closer to a lose-lose than I am comfortable with. Apparently, there is now a tradeoff between the ECB balance sheet and whether or not certain countries are ... something like feasible. Perhaps the analogy breaks down, but suppose that rather than this being Greece circa 2008 after the mortgage crash, this is South Carolina circa 1848ish after the Railroad Mania period? Then what?
Lazare 11y ago
The analogy seems inapt. More like your friend asking for a loan to get him out of a jam, and you replying "sure, if you give me your bank account details, social media passwords, and power of attorney". Realistically, your options are to either be a soft touch and give the guy a loan, or wash your hands of it and let him crash and burn. This...isn't how people treat their friends. Or how sovereign nations treat each other. (Well, I guess it is now...)
- fixxer 11y ago
  If you think the bailout compares to a "loan", I can see why you find the analogy inapt. I would compare the requisite bailout magnitude to paying off your friend's mortgage, his friend's mortgages, and their student loan debt... In which case, send me those passwords.
  - Lazare 11y ago
    Like most "loans" to friends, this one isn't being paid back, no. "Loan" is the word friends use for gifts to try and make it more palatable, but if you're charging interest and expecting prompt repayment they aren't your friend, and if you aren't it's not a loan. But: Either give him the money or tell him to fuck off. Those are the only realistic options. If you think he's going to spend it on drugs and he's sitting there promising that no, he'll use it to cover his rent, honest, and you don't believe him then don't give him the money. There's no moral option where you say yes, then lock him in your basement; believe it or not that's actually quite illegal.
Daishiman 11y ago
A very brief history of debt will show you that, whenever in history countries have bowed to the demands of external creditors for reform, it never turned out well for them, and just another opportunity for predatory investors and foreign interests to get a hold of a country's internal policies for their own purposes. Joseph Stiglitz, as chief economist of the World Bank, wrote a book on the matter on how the IMF's neoliberal policies of privatization functioned as a mechanism to give away national sovereignty and political power. Do you understand that this transfer of fiscal sovereignty is not "temporary"? That the deals Greece makes now will be dependent on, literally, decades of compliance to reforms made now, under pain of the debt relief going away? The Germans may be in the same political union, but they're not Greece's friends, and will never be. Alliances and pacts are always transitory. Giving away political power is a ludicruous proposition.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  The real story here isn't Greece but Germany. What happens when the other spendthrift states refuse to tow the line? If the answer is a Lufthansa flight full of bean counters administering a nation like a receiver, that doesn't bode well for the future of the EU.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  > whenever in history countries have bowed to the demands of external creditors for reform, it never turned out well for them It worked very well for Brazil at the 90's. And yes, those were IMF demands. They helped. Greece situation is different. But you can't generalize it either.
  - Daishiman 11y ago
    And it didn't work in Africa. It didn't work in Argentina. The places where it's helped have been fewer, and the effect of failed policies has been substantially worse than the good effects of the successful policies.
    - marcosdumay 11y ago

by fixxer 11y ago

alayne 11y ago

As long as people continue this Greeks are reckless good for nothings myth it is going to be hard to find solutions.

fixxer 11y ago
Not my words. Their economy is smaller than Louisiana's, their population is more than twice, and they really, really like entitlements. Sorry if this hurts feelings, but that is not a recipe for success.
- alextgordon 11y ago
  Yet the "solution" on offer is to keep shrinking their economy??
  - duncan_bayne 11y ago
    That's a very Keynesian perspective. The Austrian (heh) school says that in fact, the tax-and-spend policies favoured by Greek voters harm the economy in a variety of ways, one of which is by encouraging malinvestment. (And I agree with them, FWIW).
duncan_bayne 11y ago
Don't try to turn this into an argument about racism. There is something fundamentally, deeply broken with the Greek economy: http://www.lapasserelle.com/billets/greece_GDP_growth.jpg http://www.lapasserelle.com/billets/greece_GDP_growth.jpg No-one with any sense is trying to make this about "Greeks". But there is clearly something wrong with politics and economics in Greece.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Daishiman 11y ago
  In an economic union with no possibility of states to set their own monetary policy, there will always be a squeaky wheel. If this fact is not admitted, there is not point for Greece to be in the union.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- pessimizer 11y ago
  > There is something fundamentally, deeply broken with the Greek economy The current growth rate is a result of austerity, not a bizarre retroactive justification for it.
  - duncan_bayne 11y ago
    I think you're conflating two different issues: a) the Greek economy is currently in debt with no realistic way of repaying it in the short term, and b) Greek politicians have adopted a socialist-minded Keynesian tinkering-around-the-edges that has somehow been named 'austerity'. The root cause of a), and then the body politic adopting b), is broken economic culture: https://mises.org/library/greece%E2%80%99s-biggest-problem-its-anti-capitalist-culture https://mises.org/library/greece%E2%80%99s-biggest-problem-i... "And so it is with Greece. After already securing debt relief and effectively being allowed to default by restructuring its debts over the next fifty years at subsidized interest rates — and after actually achieving economic growth in 2014 by cutting taxes and slashing the size of its sclerotic, bloated government — this toxic Greek culture prevailed once more and elected a team of socialist die-hards to drag it back into the mire. Of course it doesn’t help that on the other side of the negotiating table is another bunch of central planners in the EU, IMF, and ECB. Nevertheless, Greece sits stuck between two central planning negotiation parties because its people have been too busy demanding goodies instead of freedom."
- seesomesense 11y ago
  "There is a difference between saying that "the Greek people are corrupt" and saying "the Greek government and tax-collection system (or other systems) are corrupt"" Really ? That corrupt Greek government and tax-collection system, who is it staffed by ? The Inuit ?
afarrell 11y ago
There is a difference between saying that "the Greek people are corrupt" and saying "the Greek government and tax-collection system (or other systems) are corrupt".

ArkyBeagle 11y ago

It is radically different. Your "drunk friend" is not an allegedly sovereign nation. To conflate these is a pretty serious anthropomorphic fallacy. Either continue with the fiction of nation-states or do without it. That's the choice that will be highlighted.

techdragon 11y ago
Compare individual free will and international sovereignty and the metaphor fits well enough.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  That has to be at the very least "compare/contrast". Individuals may well have free will but it's vastly more difficult to say the same of nation states. The entire EU GDP growth rate is hovering around 1% and has for a very long time. Unless interest rates really are actually zero (or negative), there's no way in the aggregate to beat the vig for debt in Europe at all other than being lucky. That's closer to a lose-lose than I am comfortable with. Apparently, there is now a tradeoff between the ECB balance sheet and whether or not certain countries are ... something like feasible. Perhaps the analogy breaks down, but suppose that rather than this being Greece circa 2008 after the mortgage crash, this is South Carolina circa 1848ish after the Railroad Mania period? Then what?

Lazare 11y ago

The analogy seems inapt. More like your friend asking for a loan to get him out of a jam, and you replying "sure, if you give me your bank account details, social media passwords, and power of attorney". Realistically, your options are to either be a soft touch and give the guy a loan, or wash your hands of it and let him crash and burn. This...isn't how people treat their friends. Or how sovereign nations treat each other. (Well, I guess it is now...)

fixxer 11y ago
If you think the bailout compares to a "loan", I can see why you find the analogy inapt. I would compare the requisite bailout magnitude to paying off your friend's mortgage, his friend's mortgages, and their student loan debt... In which case, send me those passwords.
- Lazare 11y ago
  Like most "loans" to friends, this one isn't being paid back, no. "Loan" is the word friends use for gifts to try and make it more palatable, but if you're charging interest and expecting prompt repayment they aren't your friend, and if you aren't it's not a loan. But: Either give him the money or tell him to fuck off. Those are the only realistic options. If you think he's going to spend it on drugs and he's sitting there promising that no, he'll use it to cover his rent, honest, and you don't believe him then don't give him the money. There's no moral option where you say yes, then lock him in your basement; believe it or not that's actually quite illegal.

Daishiman 11y ago

A very brief history of debt will show you that, whenever in history countries have bowed to the demands of external creditors for reform, it never turned out well for them, and just another opportunity for predatory investors and foreign interests to get a hold of a country's internal policies for their own purposes. Joseph Stiglitz, as chief economist of the World Bank, wrote a book on the matter on how the IMF's neoliberal policies of privatization functioned as a mechanism to give away national sovereignty and political power. Do you understand that this transfer of fiscal sovereignty is not "temporary"? That the deals Greece makes now will be dependent on, literally, decades of compliance to reforms made now, under pain of the debt relief going away? The Germans may be in the same political union, but they're not Greece's friends, and will never be. Alliances and pacts are always transitory. Giving away political power is a ludicruous proposition.

Spooky23 11y ago
The real story here isn't Greece but Germany. What happens when the other spendthrift states refuse to tow the line? If the answer is a Lufthansa flight full of bean counters administering a nation like a receiver, that doesn't bode well for the future of the EU.
marcosdumay 11y ago
> whenever in history countries have bowed to the demands of external creditors for reform, it never turned out well for them It worked very well for Brazil at the 90's. And yes, those were IMF demands. They helped. Greece situation is different. But you can't generalize it either.
- Daishiman 11y ago
  And it didn't work in Africa. It didn't work in Argentina. The places where it's helped have been fewer, and the effect of failed policies has been substantially worse than the good effects of the successful policies.
  - marcosdumay 11y ago