7 ms·

Can any engineers who work at Buffer chime in as to why you work there? It's been noted before on HN that the salaries are on the low end for the SF area. Obv

Can any engineers who work at Buffer chime in as to why you work there? It's been noted before on HN that the salaries are on the low end for the SF area. Obviously salary is not everything, so I'm curious as to specifically what made you join and what keeps you there.

cdubzzz 11y ago
I think this level of openness and such a specific salary formula speaks volumes about the work culture and that should partially answer your question. If my employer made this level of information available to everyone, I would have a great deal more trust and confidence in the senior management and probably wouldn't be job hunting on the side.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  >> "If my employer made this level of information available to everyone" ...I would stay well away. I guess it's different for everyone but I don't want this kind of information available to my colleagues never mind the general public.
  - RussianCow 11y ago
    May I ask why? What's wrong with people knowing how much you make?
    - k-mcgrady 11y ago
      It can lead to uncomfortable social situations. Although I would like to believe people don't get jealous of how much others make or change their opinion based on that they do, even if they don't mean too.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        This is entirely based on the people you work with. I'm sure some of my co-workers make more than me, but I would never think for a moment they don't deserve it or haven't earned it. The future is radical transparency; we should be prepared to embrace it.
        k-mcgrady 11y ago
        I actually wasn't even thinking of the workplace. If people contribute more to the company and therefore earn more, fine. I was thinking outside of the office. E.g. a friend offering to pay for a meal when you know they can't afford it as easily as you can or vice versa.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Most government worker salaries are already public information. Everyone's property value and home/condo sale price information is already public. I don't see personal financial information moving towards being more private anytime soon.
        cookiecaper 11y ago
        Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make; you don't know what classification most government workers hold. Elected officials are the common exception to this, since we know senators make $x and we know all 100 people that are currently senators, we can look up the salary for the mayor and associate it with the mayor of the city, etc. Even then the published salaries should be seen as a baseline, since many public personas have multiple streams of income.
        ktsmith 11y ago
        Who needs google: http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ There has been plenty of pressure applied to state government to provide this information under freedom of information laws. When a local paper initially collected this information and made it available there was public backlash against both the paper, and the way certain people were compensated (mostly firefighters, police officers but also some school teachers and university employees). After a while most people forgot about it but the push continued and now we have things like the above linked site where you can find the total compensation of every employee of the state of Nevada.
      - patcon 11y ago
        Interesting. In general, I'm curious why we all seem to feel wealth should be private. That ability to hide liquid wealth is something (relatively) new to our brains and societies. I would think a society where we could easily size up one another's wealth would be more in line with how our brains evolved to understand our social space...
        philsnow 11y ago
        That's just the thing, though. People want to connect on a personal level with other people, and if other people know that they make 50% more or 50% less than you, they will (by and large) treat you differently, even if subconsciously.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
      It's asking for trouble along several axes. There is the social aspect. If people you know and interact with on a daily basis know your income, they'll preload their assumptions about your money management skills into every interaction. Sometimes they'll ask for money and resent you if you decline, even though they probably have no idea what kind of liabilities you're facing (and it's reasonable to keep those private too). They'll judge all of your choices against your income; if you buy something that's a bit of a stretch, like a nicer car, you may get lectured on, but you'll definitely get judged on, how you can't really afford that, or how you're terrible at managing your income, etc. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Publicized salary information makes personal interactions more difficult all around. It can make business more difficult. Consider a world where everyone's salary is public, and anyone selling you a product can look up your income and demand certain payment based on a percentage of your income. It'd be a lot harder to negotiate or deal with salespeople this way. "Salary history" is one of the HR department's great tools for screwing over employees; instead of paying you a salary commensurate with the value you bring to the company, they just have to offer a marginal bump. Again, it neuters negotiation, since they know your hand ahead of time. There can be legal ramifications. Consider a situation where you get in a car accident, exchange insurance information, and the other party looks up your salary online and discovers that you make enough to be worth bringing to court. Even if he'd lose the case, and even if it's small claims, it'd cost you time and money in transportation, time off, etc. If it's not small claims, it'd cost you legal fees too. The claimant would anticipate that your lawyer would recommend a settlement and may sue even if his prospects were poor; since your income information would be public, said lawyers would take your case on contingency, since you have enough money to be worth trying to wring out. The old saying "good fences make good neighbors" applies and can be generalized as "a reasonable amount of privacy keeps people civil" (it needn't refer exclusively to fences). Your personal affairs can and should stay personal.
      - x43b 11y ago
        Cookiecaper "Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make;" Not google, but not much more work. If you know their name you do not need to know their classification. http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php
  - cdubzzz 11y ago
    Yeah, perfectly understandable. I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line. And it is a double-edged sword - an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I also can't even imagine what it would be like trying to implement such a policy if it weren't in place from the start, hah.
    - k-mcgrady 11y ago
      >> " I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line." Good point.
    - danfarrelly 11y ago
      "an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that."" The good part about this is that the formula and system is open to change and will continue to evolve as we find ways that it could be working better for us. We're actually in the midst of some changes right now that have and will really help the formula work in the coming months & years.
      - cdubzzz 11y ago
        Yeah, I'm not at all surprised about that based on what this degree of openness says about the culture of Buffer. Keep it up. I also have to think balancing such a formula is a very interesting challenge. On the one hand you don't want it so hard coded that there is no wiggle room, but on the other a higher fudge factor can really change the type of applicants that come along.
    - nightski 11y ago
      "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I am self employed now but honestly this could be said of any company - public salary formula or not.
- tdees40 11y ago
  In Norway everyone's income is public. I'd be curious to hear from any Norwegians how this works out in practice.
danfarrelly 11y ago
My personal top reasons are the culture, the people and what we value as a company. I believe it's a phenomenal place to work as an engineer and the remote working setup has been one of the most fun, interesting and liberating ways to work in my career. Dan, Engineer w/ Buffer for 1 1/2 years
- dominotw 11y ago
  >culture, the people and what we value as a company. Curious if you have specific examples.
  - danfarrelly 11y ago
    Culture - I find the engineering culture great, lots and lots of trust, everyone deploys at all times throughout the day, freedom to experiment with new technologies. No one points fingers and the team is all in it together. Non-engineering wise, there is a ton of respect for each other on the team, it's a super positive place to work. The people - you'd have to get to know them, they're awesome bunch :) Our values - here's the easiest way to show them: http://www.slideshare.net/Bufferapp/buffer-culture-05 http://www.slideshare.net/Bufferapp/buffer-culture-05 I hope that helps a bit!
    - dominotw 11y ago
      Thank you for your response. I can't help but think that there are tons of places that don't treat people like children and are respectful to each other. I wouldn't want to get underpaid for something generic like this. Just my personal opinion, everyone is different. I just feel like you are being underpaid by a lot.
      - danfarrelly 11y ago
        Sure! My previous employers were also great places to work, I've been pretty fortunate in my career. I can understand my response may feel generic, if we were having this convo over a coffee or beer, I could tell you in greater detail. If I was someone just after the money, I could choose to go downtown and work in fin-tech. Everyone has their own motivations, values and desires. Buffer fits very well within mine!
sunils34 11y ago
Hi there! Sunil here (CTO at Buffer). Really great question! We've had a long and hard look at our salaries and have been in the midst of overhauling how exactly we determine salaries. One of the great things with being transparent about our salaries is that we learn so much about how we've originally set up our salaries and how we'd need to further adjust things. We received some great feedback and through that, we've realized how under-market our rates have been for areas like SF and NYC, while being quite above market rates in many other regions. We've been in the middle of overhauling how salaries get set, and have adjusted developer salaries based on some solid feedback. I believe we'll update the public numbers and be transparent about the process we took and our overall learnings quite soon! Generally our approach with salaries (and much of the company) has been to iterate with continuous feedback loops. The feedback we receive in HN may further influence how we think about things. Would love any more thoughts/advice you have :)
- Domenic_S 11y ago
  Could you talk more about how it took "great feedback" to realize how under-market you were? I would imagine a tech company -- especially one that took so much time and effort coming up with compensation formulas -- would have their finger on the pulse of salary levels.
- discardorama 11y ago
  > we've realized how under-market our rates have been for areas like SF and NYC, while being quite above market rates in many other regions. It shouldn't come as a surprise that you have to pay more in markets like SF and NYC. The costs of living are much higher, and employees can switch jobs almost effortlessly.
  - Domenic_S 11y ago
    Well, that's the weird part - they obviously knew that, because they have the location modifier (SF/NYC are location A/+$22k). Seems like the base levels are too low.
    - 11y ago
JDiculous 11y ago
Most likely because they allow you to work remotely from anywhere in the world.

cdubzzz 11y ago

I think this level of openness and such a specific salary formula speaks volumes about the work culture and that should partially answer your question. If my employer made this level of information available to everyone, I would have a great deal more trust and confidence in the senior management and probably wouldn't be job hunting on the side.

k-mcgrady 11y ago
>> "If my employer made this level of information available to everyone" ...I would stay well away. I guess it's different for everyone but I don't want this kind of information available to my colleagues never mind the general public.
- RussianCow 11y ago
  May I ask why? What's wrong with people knowing how much you make?
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    It can lead to uncomfortable social situations. Although I would like to believe people don't get jealous of how much others make or change their opinion based on that they do, even if they don't mean too.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      This is entirely based on the people you work with. I'm sure some of my co-workers make more than me, but I would never think for a moment they don't deserve it or haven't earned it. The future is radical transparency; we should be prepared to embrace it.
      - k-mcgrady 11y ago
        I actually wasn't even thinking of the workplace. If people contribute more to the company and therefore earn more, fine. I was thinking outside of the office. E.g. a friend offering to pay for a meal when you know they can't afford it as easily as you can or vice versa.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Most government worker salaries are already public information. Everyone's property value and home/condo sale price information is already public. I don't see personal financial information moving towards being more private anytime soon.
        cookiecaper 11y ago
        Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make; you don't know what classification most government workers hold. Elected officials are the common exception to this, since we know senators make $x and we know all 100 people that are currently senators, we can look up the salary for the mayor and associate it with the mayor of the city, etc. Even then the published salaries should be seen as a baseline, since many public personas have multiple streams of income.
        ktsmith 11y ago
        Who needs google: http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ There has been plenty of pressure applied to state government to provide this information under freedom of information laws. When a local paper initially collected this information and made it available there was public backlash against both the paper, and the way certain people were compensated (mostly firefighters, police officers but also some school teachers and university employees). After a while most people forgot about it but the push continued and now we have things like the above linked site where you can find the total compensation of every employee of the state of Nevada.
    - patcon 11y ago
      Interesting. In general, I'm curious why we all seem to feel wealth should be private. That ability to hide liquid wealth is something (relatively) new to our brains and societies. I would think a society where we could easily size up one another's wealth would be more in line with how our brains evolved to understand our social space...
      - philsnow 11y ago
        That's just the thing, though. People want to connect on a personal level with other people, and if other people know that they make 50% more or 50% less than you, they will (by and large) treat you differently, even if subconsciously.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    It's asking for trouble along several axes. There is the social aspect. If people you know and interact with on a daily basis know your income, they'll preload their assumptions about your money management skills into every interaction. Sometimes they'll ask for money and resent you if you decline, even though they probably have no idea what kind of liabilities you're facing (and it's reasonable to keep those private too). They'll judge all of your choices against your income; if you buy something that's a bit of a stretch, like a nicer car, you may get lectured on, but you'll definitely get judged on, how you can't really afford that, or how you're terrible at managing your income, etc. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Publicized salary information makes personal interactions more difficult all around. It can make business more difficult. Consider a world where everyone's salary is public, and anyone selling you a product can look up your income and demand certain payment based on a percentage of your income. It'd be a lot harder to negotiate or deal with salespeople this way. "Salary history" is one of the HR department's great tools for screwing over employees; instead of paying you a salary commensurate with the value you bring to the company, they just have to offer a marginal bump. Again, it neuters negotiation, since they know your hand ahead of time. There can be legal ramifications. Consider a situation where you get in a car accident, exchange insurance information, and the other party looks up your salary online and discovers that you make enough to be worth bringing to court. Even if he'd lose the case, and even if it's small claims, it'd cost you time and money in transportation, time off, etc. If it's not small claims, it'd cost you legal fees too. The claimant would anticipate that your lawyer would recommend a settlement and may sue even if his prospects were poor; since your income information would be public, said lawyers would take your case on contingency, since you have enough money to be worth trying to wring out. The old saying "good fences make good neighbors" applies and can be generalized as "a reasonable amount of privacy keeps people civil" (it needn't refer exclusively to fences). Your personal affairs can and should stay personal.
    - x43b 11y ago
      Cookiecaper "Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make;" Not google, but not much more work. If you know their name you do not need to know their classification. http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php
- cdubzzz 11y ago
  Yeah, perfectly understandable. I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line. And it is a double-edged sword - an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I also can't even imagine what it would be like trying to implement such a policy if it weren't in place from the start, hah.
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    >> " I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line." Good point.
  - danfarrelly 11y ago
    "an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that."" The good part about this is that the formula and system is open to change and will continue to evolve as we find ways that it could be working better for us. We're actually in the midst of some changes right now that have and will really help the formula work in the coming months & years.
    - cdubzzz 11y ago
      Yeah, I'm not at all surprised about that based on what this degree of openness says about the culture of Buffer. Keep it up. I also have to think balancing such a formula is a very interesting challenge. On the one hand you don't want it so hard coded that there is no wiggle room, but on the other a higher fudge factor can really change the type of applicants that come along.
  - nightski 11y ago
    "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I am self employed now but honestly this could be said of any company - public salary formula or not.
tdees40 11y ago
In Norway everyone's income is public. I'd be curious to hear from any Norwegians how this works out in practice.

danfarrelly 11y ago

My personal top reasons are the culture, the people and what we value as a company. I believe it's a phenomenal place to work as an engineer and the remote working setup has been one of the most fun, interesting and liberating ways to work in my career. Dan, Engineer w/ Buffer for 1 1/2 years

dominotw 11y ago
>culture, the people and what we value as a company. Curious if you have specific examples.
- danfarrelly 11y ago
  Culture - I find the engineering culture great, lots and lots of trust, everyone deploys at all times throughout the day, freedom to experiment with new technologies. No one points fingers and the team is all in it together. Non-engineering wise, there is a ton of respect for each other on the team, it's a super positive place to work. The people - you'd have to get to know them, they're awesome bunch :) Our values - here's the easiest way to show them: http://www.slideshare.net/Bufferapp/buffer-culture-05 http://www.slideshare.net/Bufferapp/buffer-culture-05 I hope that helps a bit!
  - dominotw 11y ago
    Thank you for your response. I can't help but think that there are tons of places that don't treat people like children and are respectful to each other. I wouldn't want to get underpaid for something generic like this. Just my personal opinion, everyone is different. I just feel like you are being underpaid by a lot.
    - danfarrelly 11y ago
      Sure! My previous employers were also great places to work, I've been pretty fortunate in my career. I can understand my response may feel generic, if we were having this convo over a coffee or beer, I could tell you in greater detail. If I was someone just after the money, I could choose to go downtown and work in fin-tech. Everyone has their own motivations, values and desires. Buffer fits very well within mine!

sunils34 11y ago

Hi there! Sunil here (CTO at Buffer). Really great question! We've had a long and hard look at our salaries and have been in the midst of overhauling how exactly we determine salaries. One of the great things with being transparent about our salaries is that we learn so much about how we've originally set up our salaries and how we'd need to further adjust things. We received some great feedback and through that, we've realized how under-market our rates have been for areas like SF and NYC, while being quite above market rates in many other regions. We've been in the middle of overhauling how salaries get set, and have adjusted developer salaries based on some solid feedback. I believe we'll update the public numbers and be transparent about the process we took and our overall learnings quite soon! Generally our approach with salaries (and much of the company) has been to iterate with continuous feedback loops. The feedback we receive in HN may further influence how we think about things. Would love any more thoughts/advice you have :)

Domenic_S 11y ago
Could you talk more about how it took "great feedback" to realize how under-market you were? I would imagine a tech company -- especially one that took so much time and effort coming up with compensation formulas -- would have their finger on the pulse of salary levels.
discardorama 11y ago
> we've realized how under-market our rates have been for areas like SF and NYC, while being quite above market rates in many other regions. It shouldn't come as a surprise that you have to pay more in markets like SF and NYC. The costs of living are much higher, and employees can switch jobs almost effortlessly.
- Domenic_S 11y ago
  Well, that's the weird part - they obviously knew that, because they have the location modifier (SF/NYC are location A/+$22k). Seems like the base levels are too low.
  - 11y ago

JDiculous 11y ago

Most likely because they allow you to work remotely from anywhere in the world.