7 ms·

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior softw

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebrows he immediately backtracked to say that he meant that the culture was so different, I got out of there as soon as I could. The guy that was eventually hired because he was 'nice' even though his technical skills were weak was fired six weeks into the job and left a mess that took six full days to 'fix', until we discovered the changes he had made to how things were stored in the database without considering the full implications. I've also had it happen to me that I pass every technical interview, and then when I meet the team, we'll go for lunch and they'll order beer and I get an orange juice. Drinking comes up as a subject and since I don't drink alcohol my lack of craft beer knowledge somehow becomes the subject of my interview. Needless to say, I've always been rejected at these jobs. Another one is hobbies. I've a family and my commute is LONG, to the point that I don't even play PC games anymore. Hobbies come up, I have none, and I have no intention of lying to get the job. I've learned since that these are companies I don't want to work for. I've gotten along with everyone at every job I've had, so I'm not intimidated by these, but every one I've had has been utterly pointless.

mreiland 11y ago
Yep, I've always believes that there are times when you find yourself in a place you shouldn't be in. It isn't their fault and it isn't your fault, just different people who don't mesh and it's best to admit to it and walk away. The cultural fit thing can be important in that a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group, to the point of people leaving due to getting such a negative view of management/business over time from the constant negativity. It's a hard thing because there are definitely people you don't want to hire due to 'fit', but it's so hard to get it even fairly right.
- jrs235 11y ago
  > a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group I consider a negative Nate an attitude issue not a cultural fit issue. If I picked up on a negative attitude during ht interview, the candidate probably won't be offered the position.
  - srj 11y ago
    How is a person's attitude not relevant to culture? Change everyone's attitude in the company: has the culture not changed?
ovi256 11y ago
Talking about a hobby as if you still do it, in order to get the job and provide for your family, is not a lie anyone sane would say matters. Next time, don't sweat it.
- skrebbel 11y ago
  Seriously? You'd take a job that requires that you lie about your personal life?
  - ak39 11y ago
    Agreed on your incredulity. I've never understood ethics behind such type of advice. File it under Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people". If there could ever be a treatise on psychopathy, that'd be it.
  - hyperpape 11y ago
    I wouldn't defend hiring based on hobbies, but it's pretty easy to make a comment like "I really like X, but these days I mostly do stuff with my family..." and it's a lot more human sounding than "I have no hobbies."
  - IshKebab 11y ago
    No job requires you to lie about your personal life, but if they're willing to give you credit for a lie that doesn't matter at all - why the hell not? Although having said that, judging you so much on your "fit" is a pretty big red flag.
    - ak39 11y ago
      It may not matter to them at all, but shouldn't it matter to you?
  - notNow 11y ago
    With this stance, you and the OP are uncompromising on this issue which can be viewed as good or bad depending on context but I think in this case it's very unfavorable. Everyone has hobbies just take the time to think about it and you will come up with something better than "none" which is not really exciting to hear and might send the wrong signal to the recruiter that you are not interested enough in the opening position.
notNow 11y ago
May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.
- thedz 11y ago
  There's... a huge gap between not drinking due to religious reasons, and being a "fundie". That's like calling everyone who is vegetarian or vegan or don't eat a specific kind of meat due to religion your feared "fundies".
- mgkimsal 11y ago
  Not the OP, but I don't drink alcohol in social situations much - typically not as a lunch beverage with team mates - for 1 primary reason: I don't like the taste. I have no moral objections against a glass of beer or wine with a meal, and occasionally will have a glass of wine with a dinner (usually not, because I'm normally driving somewhere as well). I've done the 'go to lunch' during an interview, and beer came up a couple times. "I don't like the taste" was met with a reaction similar to what I imagine others get for "my religion forbids it" - abject disbelief and/or mock horror. I will do spirits - love me some mixed drinks (vodka+anything) when I'm sure I don't need to drive anywhere (conferences at hotels, for example), but don't make a habit of it, primarily because... cost. I simply understand how people can routinely drop that sort of money on beverages as a way of life. 2 drinks for 2 folks at a restaurant can easily double the price of a meal.
  - notNow 11y ago
    If you don't like the taste of beer or alcoholic beverages for the matter is fine with me and I'd like to clarify that I don't have prob either with the religious cop-out but you'll have to forgive me if I get you under more scrutiny just to ensure that you fit well within the inclusive environment because from my experience religious people esp. from certain backgrounds (let's stick with PC for now not to inflame the thread) are difficult to integrate and make our lives harder and we usually up to the ears with work stuff to deal with cultural friction and sensitivity training for new hires.
jrs235 11y ago
Here's a comment from an Ask HN I started pertaining to hiring: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760639 I think it addresses the issue of not getting an offer because the existing team doesn't connect on as private/personal level.
SixSigma 11y ago
> until we discovered the changes he had made to how things were stored in the database without considering the full implications. sounds like he found the faults in your infrastructure, you should be thanking him
xaybey 11y ago
I understand not drinking and not playing video games, but saying that you have no hobbies would be pretty weird in an interview. They're just trying to get to know you. Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot.
- waterlesscloud 11y ago
  "Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot." He mentioned having a family. That pretty much means he's not a robot.
  - jrs235 11y ago
    Which an employer may not want to ask for or know about since family status is a protected class in some jurisdictions. "On May 11, 2014, Governor Mark Dayton signed the Women’s Economic Security Act (WESA), which amended the prohibitions against employment discrimination in the Minnesota Human Rights Act (MHRA). Now, discrimination based on “familial status” in hiring, promotion, retention and other employment decisions is illegal in Minnesota." [1] [1] http://mn.gov/mdhr/employers/familial_status.html http://mn.gov/mdhr/employers/familial_status.html
- informatimago 11y ago
  Distinguishes you from a robot, WHEN? After the 80 hours a week spent at work, 56 hours a week spent sleeping (going to work while sleep deprived is like going to work drunk, so they do expect you to sleep!), 3.5 hours a week spent showering (and they do expect you to come to work clean, wonder why), 10 hours a week spent in commuting to work, 7 hours a week spent on feeding yourself (and they do expect you to eat so you can work (I can spend weeks without eating, but then I won't be productive)), 4 hours a week to buy the groceries, and 7 hours a week spent on the internet or TV, there remains NO time for any hobby. So if they want hobbies, they will have to reduce drastically work time.
  - npinguy 11y ago
    Let's start from 80 hours a week spent at work. Red flag #1. Don't know why you would assume that's necessary 3.5 hours/week showering. Red flag #2. Even if you shower every single day, if you're spending 30 minutes in the shower each time you might as well call it a hobby. Unless you've got long luxurious hair, you should be able to get everything done in 10 minutes. 10 hours commuting, so 1 hour each way? #3 How much do you value your time? Clearly if you can't think of a hobby, not very much. If you did, you'd pay extra to not waste 2 hours every day wasted. But wait...why are you wasting that time? Can you read? Listen to audio books? Work on a side project? Even day dream and think? If you have to drive, can you switch from driving to motorcycling, and make that a hobby? It sounds like you WANT to throw yourself into work, and spend all your energy and time into it as an excuse for lacking the ability to become a fully developed multi-faceted human being. And that is on you, not on your employer.
IvyMike 11y ago
It's tough on an interview to get a feel for how a person is in day-to-day conversation. So the interviewers are looking for areas of common interest to talk about. If they are young, they may have a limited repertoire of topics that usually work; if you shut down all of their ideas for conversation, I hope you at least tried to come up with some topics of your own. Otherwise, you won't have a conversation, and they won't get a feel for you, and that's a bad thing. I don't know if you've ever actually said "I don't have hobbies" in an interview, but that could likely come off as negative. Your hobbies are your kids, or your house, or reading, or cooking, or watching TV, or whatever you do with your time at home. And all of those are at least something that might start a conversation, which is the whole point. Hell, even saying "I used to play PC games, here are the classics I liked" could be a conversation starter.
- reagency 11y ago
  Thank you for illustrating what is wrong with "culture fit". There is no need to require candidates to be buds with the team. " maturity" "Professionalism" used to be a virtue that adults aspired to, until young adults decided to hack the system and turn the "Good ol' boys" club into a "good youn' boys" club.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    Professionalism can be dehumanizing just as camaraderie can be alienating. I don't think either, alone, is a virtue. We need both to communicate and work effectively.
- rayiner 11y ago
  Kids and house aren't hobbies. They're responsibilities.
  - mbrameld 11y ago
    They can be both.
    - 11y ago
Animats 11y ago
If beer is an interview subject, the "brogrammer" culture has gotten out of hand. Now what, the three-martini lunch of the 1950s? (See "Mad Men".) No wonder we see so much crap code.
jarjoura 11y ago
Not to sound insulting, though this might be, but without knowing more details I'm going to assume you're failing at the soft interview questions. In an industry where creativity is just as important as engineering knowledge, it's absolutely critical that you nail your soft interview questions. Don't be afraid or insulted by them, OWN them. Spend time this weekend thinking about what exactly your hobbies are. You definitely have them, even if it's spending time cleaning up baby mess. Think about things that bring a smile to your face and can project to others what your passions are in life. Never lie and it bothers me that some replies below mention that as an option. However, do MARKET yourself. The reason these interviewers are mentioning craft-beer to you is because they're trying to get inside your head and see what makes you tick. Beer is an easy way in SF to connect with a lot of people. So yea, no one cares you don't like beer, and I know plenty of people don't drink at all. I promise that that's not why you're not getting an offer. :)
- MDCore 11y ago
  I would disagree that they are soft questions and just say that they're just bad and useless questions. The expectation tends to be that the candidate takes whatever is thrown at them, and in practice it does make a little sense: once you're in the interview, you're in the interview. But here, commenting on a forum, I'd rather push back and ask interviewers to stop asking questions that don't achieve anything useful, and won't achieve the insights they might imagine. So instead of soft questions asking about hobbies, and excluding all the many examples of people families, why not talk about interesting on-the-job experiences? As one example. Interviewing well is a tough gig, but that's no excuse for continuing to do it poorly.
simonebrunozzi 11y ago
I would immediately hire you - just based on what I read. Seriously. I hate stereotypes, and not allowing people to differ from the average. I also don't drink alcohol, and I don't watch TV or sports. Every time someone says something cryptic I assume it's baseball-related, and I'm right about 40% of the time.
- Jasper_ 11y ago
  Well, you're just doing the same exact thing. Instead of hiring someone who might watch a bit of baseball or grab a beer every once in a while, you'd prefer to hire someone just like you. That's still not good.

mreiland 11y ago

Yep, I've always believes that there are times when you find yourself in a place you shouldn't be in. It isn't their fault and it isn't your fault, just different people who don't mesh and it's best to admit to it and walk away. The cultural fit thing can be important in that a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group, to the point of people leaving due to getting such a negative view of management/business over time from the constant negativity. It's a hard thing because there are definitely people you don't want to hire due to 'fit', but it's so hard to get it even fairly right.

jrs235 11y ago
> a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group I consider a negative Nate an attitude issue not a cultural fit issue. If I picked up on a negative attitude during ht interview, the candidate probably won't be offered the position.
- srj 11y ago
  How is a person's attitude not relevant to culture? Change everyone's attitude in the company: has the culture not changed?

ovi256 11y ago

Talking about a hobby as if you still do it, in order to get the job and provide for your family, is not a lie anyone sane would say matters. Next time, don't sweat it.

skrebbel 11y ago
Seriously? You'd take a job that requires that you lie about your personal life?
- ak39 11y ago
  Agreed on your incredulity. I've never understood ethics behind such type of advice. File it under Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people". If there could ever be a treatise on psychopathy, that'd be it.
- hyperpape 11y ago
  I wouldn't defend hiring based on hobbies, but it's pretty easy to make a comment like "I really like X, but these days I mostly do stuff with my family..." and it's a lot more human sounding than "I have no hobbies."
- IshKebab 11y ago
  No job requires you to lie about your personal life, but if they're willing to give you credit for a lie that doesn't matter at all - why the hell not? Although having said that, judging you so much on your "fit" is a pretty big red flag.
  - ak39 11y ago
    It may not matter to them at all, but shouldn't it matter to you?
- notNow 11y ago
  With this stance, you and the OP are uncompromising on this issue which can be viewed as good or bad depending on context but I think in this case it's very unfavorable. Everyone has hobbies just take the time to think about it and you will come up with something better than "none" which is not really exciting to hear and might send the wrong signal to the recruiter that you are not interested enough in the opening position.

notNow 11y ago

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

thedz 11y ago
There's... a huge gap between not drinking due to religious reasons, and being a "fundie". That's like calling everyone who is vegetarian or vegan or don't eat a specific kind of meat due to religion your feared "fundies".
mgkimsal 11y ago
Not the OP, but I don't drink alcohol in social situations much - typically not as a lunch beverage with team mates - for 1 primary reason: I don't like the taste. I have no moral objections against a glass of beer or wine with a meal, and occasionally will have a glass of wine with a dinner (usually not, because I'm normally driving somewhere as well). I've done the 'go to lunch' during an interview, and beer came up a couple times. "I don't like the taste" was met with a reaction similar to what I imagine others get for "my religion forbids it" - abject disbelief and/or mock horror. I will do spirits - love me some mixed drinks (vodka+anything) when I'm sure I don't need to drive anywhere (conferences at hotels, for example), but don't make a habit of it, primarily because... cost. I simply understand how people can routinely drop that sort of money on beverages as a way of life. 2 drinks for 2 folks at a restaurant can easily double the price of a meal.
- notNow 11y ago
  If you don't like the taste of beer or alcoholic beverages for the matter is fine with me and I'd like to clarify that I don't have prob either with the religious cop-out but you'll have to forgive me if I get you under more scrutiny just to ensure that you fit well within the inclusive environment because from my experience religious people esp. from certain backgrounds (let's stick with PC for now not to inflame the thread) are difficult to integrate and make our lives harder and we usually up to the ears with work stuff to deal with cultural friction and sensitivity training for new hires.

jrs235 11y ago

Here's a comment from an Ask HN I started pertaining to hiring: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760639 I think it addresses the issue of not getting an offer because the existing team doesn't connect on as private/personal level.

SixSigma 11y ago

> until we discovered the changes he had made to how things were stored in the database without considering the full implications. sounds like he found the faults in your infrastructure, you should be thanking him

xaybey 11y ago

I understand not drinking and not playing video games, but saying that you have no hobbies would be pretty weird in an interview. They're just trying to get to know you. Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot.

waterlesscloud 11y ago
"Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot." He mentioned having a family. That pretty much means he's not a robot.
- jrs235 11y ago
  Which an employer may not want to ask for or know about since family status is a protected class in some jurisdictions. "On May 11, 2014, Governor Mark Dayton signed the Women’s Economic Security Act (WESA), which amended the prohibitions against employment discrimination in the Minnesota Human Rights Act (MHRA). Now, discrimination based on “familial status” in hiring, promotion, retention and other employment decisions is illegal in Minnesota." [1] [1] http://mn.gov/mdhr/employers/familial_status.html http://mn.gov/mdhr/employers/familial_status.html
informatimago 11y ago
Distinguishes you from a robot, WHEN? After the 80 hours a week spent at work, 56 hours a week spent sleeping (going to work while sleep deprived is like going to work drunk, so they do expect you to sleep!), 3.5 hours a week spent showering (and they do expect you to come to work clean, wonder why), 10 hours a week spent in commuting to work, 7 hours a week spent on feeding yourself (and they do expect you to eat so you can work (I can spend weeks without eating, but then I won't be productive)), 4 hours a week to buy the groceries, and 7 hours a week spent on the internet or TV, there remains NO time for any hobby. So if they want hobbies, they will have to reduce drastically work time.
- npinguy 11y ago
  Let's start from 80 hours a week spent at work. Red flag #1. Don't know why you would assume that's necessary 3.5 hours/week showering. Red flag #2. Even if you shower every single day, if you're spending 30 minutes in the shower each time you might as well call it a hobby. Unless you've got long luxurious hair, you should be able to get everything done in 10 minutes. 10 hours commuting, so 1 hour each way? #3 How much do you value your time? Clearly if you can't think of a hobby, not very much. If you did, you'd pay extra to not waste 2 hours every day wasted. But wait...why are you wasting that time? Can you read? Listen to audio books? Work on a side project? Even day dream and think? If you have to drive, can you switch from driving to motorcycling, and make that a hobby? It sounds like you WANT to throw yourself into work, and spend all your energy and time into it as an excuse for lacking the ability to become a fully developed multi-faceted human being. And that is on you, not on your employer.

IvyMike 11y ago

It's tough on an interview to get a feel for how a person is in day-to-day conversation. So the interviewers are looking for areas of common interest to talk about. If they are young, they may have a limited repertoire of topics that usually work; if you shut down all of their ideas for conversation, I hope you at least tried to come up with some topics of your own. Otherwise, you won't have a conversation, and they won't get a feel for you, and that's a bad thing. I don't know if you've ever actually said "I don't have hobbies" in an interview, but that could likely come off as negative. Your hobbies are your kids, or your house, or reading, or cooking, or watching TV, or whatever you do with your time at home. And all of those are at least something that might start a conversation, which is the whole point. Hell, even saying "I used to play PC games, here are the classics I liked" could be a conversation starter.

reagency 11y ago
Thank you for illustrating what is wrong with "culture fit". There is no need to require candidates to be buds with the team. " maturity" "Professionalism" used to be a virtue that adults aspired to, until young adults decided to hack the system and turn the "Good ol' boys" club into a "good youn' boys" club.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  Professionalism can be dehumanizing just as camaraderie can be alienating. I don't think either, alone, is a virtue. We need both to communicate and work effectively.
rayiner 11y ago
Kids and house aren't hobbies. They're responsibilities.
- mbrameld 11y ago
  They can be both.
  - 11y ago

Animats 11y ago

If beer is an interview subject, the "brogrammer" culture has gotten out of hand. Now what, the three-martini lunch of the 1950s? (See "Mad Men".) No wonder we see so much crap code.

jarjoura 11y ago

Not to sound insulting, though this might be, but without knowing more details I'm going to assume you're failing at the soft interview questions. In an industry where creativity is just as important as engineering knowledge, it's absolutely critical that you nail your soft interview questions. Don't be afraid or insulted by them, OWN them. Spend time this weekend thinking about what exactly your hobbies are. You definitely have them, even if it's spending time cleaning up baby mess. Think about things that bring a smile to your face and can project to others what your passions are in life. Never lie and it bothers me that some replies below mention that as an option. However, do MARKET yourself. The reason these interviewers are mentioning craft-beer to you is because they're trying to get inside your head and see what makes you tick. Beer is an easy way in SF to connect with a lot of people. So yea, no one cares you don't like beer, and I know plenty of people don't drink at all. I promise that that's not why you're not getting an offer. :)

MDCore 11y ago
I would disagree that they are soft questions and just say that they're just bad and useless questions. The expectation tends to be that the candidate takes whatever is thrown at them, and in practice it does make a little sense: once you're in the interview, you're in the interview. But here, commenting on a forum, I'd rather push back and ask interviewers to stop asking questions that don't achieve anything useful, and won't achieve the insights they might imagine. So instead of soft questions asking about hobbies, and excluding all the many examples of people families, why not talk about interesting on-the-job experiences? As one example. Interviewing well is a tough gig, but that's no excuse for continuing to do it poorly.

simonebrunozzi 11y ago

I would immediately hire you - just based on what I read. Seriously. I hate stereotypes, and not allowing people to differ from the average. I also don't drink alcohol, and I don't watch TV or sports. Every time someone says something cryptic I assume it's baseball-related, and I'm right about 40% of the time.

Jasper_ 11y ago
Well, you're just doing the same exact thing. Instead of hiring someone who might watch a bit of baseball or grab a beer every once in a while, you'd prefer to hire someone just like you. That's still not good.