19 ms·

Samsung disabling Windows Update?

316 points by firloop 11y ago

ademarre 11y ago
I'm fed up with these hardware vendors incessantly messing with software. Why doesn't Microsoft tighten up its OEM licensing terms to put an end to this kind of thing?
- bskap 11y ago
  Because the US and EU have repeatedly told Microsoft that they're not allowed to force OEMs to use their software.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    I'm not sure this applies. "You're not allowed to disable updates" is not even close to "You cannot install any browser other than IE".
    - bskap 11y ago
      I'm not sure Microsoft wants to gamble $1 billion that "You have to use Microsoft's updater" is different than "you have to include Windows Media Player".
- Encosia 11y ago
  A little anti-trust action against you by the government will do that. Though it may not have been solely consumer friendly in the past, strongarming OEMs to avoid these kinds of messes was one of the things that got them in trouble 15 years ago.
jriordan 11y ago
Microsoft owns Windows. Licenses it to OEMs. If Microsoft didn't have a problem with OEM's disabling Windows Update, then then would have prohibited it in their license agreement.
- Aloha 11y ago
  I'd be very surprised if the OEM license doesn't include such language - just because its there doesn't mean Microsoft is aware of what the OEM's are doing.
- Qantourisc 11y ago
  There is also the possiblity nobody considered this to be a problem ... ever ...
smaili 11y ago
Fantastic discovery! Kind of makes me wonder if there are other OEMs doing the same kind of thing and we just never noticed it.
- userbinator 11y ago
  we just never noticed it. Quite likely if those who would have the knowledge to look into such things are also those who would just reformat the drive and install a fresh copy of the OS.
  - tracker1 11y ago
    It's funny, but that's usually the first thing I do with new hardware... though it's also because in general I put in more RAM, and an SSD. Discovering my new rMBP (from August) can't have the memory upgraded and wasn't using the same msata interface as everyone else was disappointing. I typically DIY my own desktop builds, but laptops are getting way too locked down for my taste... I would expect memory, storage and battery to be user servicable on a > $1k laptop. Between Sony, Lenovo and now Samsung... I'm getting really sick of this kind of crap.
UnoriginalGuy 11y ago
If this is true (and frankly I know for a fact it is, as I just downloaded the linked file containing Disable_Windowsupdate.exe, which is signed by Samsung Electronics CO and downloaded from Samsung's own servers) then Microsoft should pick up the phone and threaten the heck out of Samsung, Microsoft while somewhat neutered by anti-trust still has a great deal of power over OEMs and stuff like this is a perfect time to [ab]use it.
- tantalor 11y ago
  Yet, Microsoft is responsible for allowing such software to run in the background with no notification or authorization by the user or means to disable it.
  - monochromatic 11y ago
    Yes, it's almost as if executable code is... executable.
    - orestisfl 11y ago
      intel's fault for developing x86
  - pilif 11y ago
    It's really hard to find the correct middle-ground. Would you prefer if Windows worked like iOS where there are serious limitations on what apps can do in the background and where every application has to go through a central authority for vetting? Or do you propose a solution that gives both freedom to the user while also not allowing something like this to happen? Yes, there are whitelisting solutions (built into the OS by MS, btw), but they are a real pain in the ass to use - there's just too much stuff running on your machine at any given time.
    - ninkendo 11y ago
      > Would you prefer if Windows worked like iOS where there are serious limitations on what apps can do in the background and where every application has to go through a central authority for vetting? I've thought about this for a while, and honestly, for desktops/notebooks/tablets? Yes. Maybe not just one App Store like iOS, but at least sandbox all possible non-os code similarly to ChromeOS, in a way that's on by default and requires a boot-time flag to disable (and users should be allowed to do this, but OEMs shouldn't.) Recently my dad bought a new $300 toshiba laptop because his old machine was just "slow", as in he had so much spyware on his computer that it was easier to just buy a new one than going through the hassle of cleaning up his old one. Even though his old laptop was perfectly good and of a recent hardware generation. I'm 100% positive he's going to have the same issues on his new laptop, and his response was that he uses his iPad so much that it doesn't matter anyway. The role of the modern day OS has changed immensely over the years. Nowadays there's simply no reason for legitimate applications to have the level of access to the underlying system that they used to have. Apps really don't need arbitrary filesystem access. They don't need to be able to overwrite core system files. They should be run in a sandbox or a container with as restricted of a set of permissions as possible. For servers and development workstations the story is a little bit different, but those are exceptions to the rule, and with the proper release hatches like boot-time enabling of un-sandboxed code it's a good tradeoff IMO.
bentcorner 11y ago
Isn't there a method by which Samsung can deliver to Microsoft the set of drivers required for their hardware, to solve this exact problem? Is this a matter of Samsung not wanting to go through the WHQL process?
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  It's possible that Microsoft have been covertly throttling the WHQL process to punish Samsung somehow. They are competing head on with Microsoft in a number of other markets (tablets, etc.), and WHQL is not really subject to much, if any, legal scrutiny.
  - PlzSnow 11y ago
    absurd nonsense
  - SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
    Yes, I hear 9/11 was an inside job as well...
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      Somebody clearly wasn't around in the 90s.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
        I was born in 1984, I remember the 90s well... If Apple have completely reinvented themselves, why not Microsoft?
  - peteri 11y ago
    As far as I know WHQL is automated so it's unlikely. i.e. you test it rather than MS and submit the results to them. MS then sign the driver package and pass it back. Don't think there are any humans involved.
firloop 11y ago
Meta: I submitted this post with the article's title but it seems the mods have changed the title to something less loaded.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- imrehg 11y ago
  That's weird. I don't think I like that the mods can tone down an article title, when submitters are expected to use the original. If the article title makes a wrong claim, the comments and the voting mechanism will take care of that, does not seem to be the call mods should be making....
  - taspeotis 11y ago
    > when submitters are expected to use the original Except for all the cases that they are not expected to use the original [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ubernostrum 11y ago
    The guidelines are: * If you use the original title, that's wrong; you should use a less-sensationalized title. * If you use a less-sensationalized title, that's wrong; you should use the original title. I hope that clears it up.
- dang 11y ago
  HN has never had a "original titles only" rule. If it did, anyone could get whatever they wanted on the front page just by giving a post a manipulative title. That's why the guidelines ask to use the original title unless it is misleading or linkbait. Is this one misleading? I can't say. In cases where we are in no position to judge the accuracy of a dramatic claim, we sometimes add a question mark. It's a lightweight way to make the title provisionally conform to HN's guidelines while the community sorts out what's going on.
userbinator 11y ago
Samsung provides their own updating software? I'm not surprised... consumer hardware and the drivers associated with them is in general a horrible mess of workarounds and I feel it's only going to get worse. For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. That's a pretty minor problem compared to what I've heard: automatic BIOS updates, which happen silently and brick the machine without any prior warning. Ironically it is the "update culture" that brought us this whole mess in the first place; pushing out software (and hardware) that barely works "because we can always update it later", patching around bugs, and then realising that your patches break if someone else changes a piece you depend on, and so forth, thus leading to ultimatum situations like this.
vcarl 11y ago
> When you enable Windows updates, it will install the Default Drivers for all the hardware no laptop which may or may not work. For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. So to prevent this, SW Update tool will prevent the Windows updates. So they "fixed" the problem of their driver getting overwritten by disabling all OS level updates? Oof. Screams shoddy development if this is true.
- kbenson 11y ago
  I wonder if it was meant to be a short term fix until some drivers passed certification or something? Or maybe their software update selectively runs windows update to find updates and notifies the user? I wonder how long it's been set up this way? None of these are good, but the details may mitigate quite how bad it is (in spirit, if not reality).
- jbdigriz 11y ago
  Is this even true? Windows updates only drop critical updates and can't think of a case where updated Windows drivers were automatically installed over existing drivers without explicit request or prompting to do so (except perhaps for critical flaws where the driver itself compromises security). Just yesterday I had to manually find and select an optional driver update for Intel HD graphics which one would expect to be in category of "autoupdate" if this were true... Disabling ALL of Windows Update for this questionable reason seems entirely out of line. If their own SW Update software is already present, why not instead track said drivers and simply alert the user that vendor specific drivers must be used, offering the ability to restore them?? Makes no sense...
  - ascagnel_ 11y ago
    Generally, Windows Update will update your drivers to the most recent version MS has available -- but they mandate WHQL drivers, so they're rarely the most recent. For example, while MS has nVidia drivers up on Windows Update, if you have a more recent version direct from nVidia, it will not overwrite that. This situation is 100% on Samsung. They've put hardware out there that they can't target properly to overwrite the generic version.
gruez 11y ago
Why couldn't samsung's service just programmatically uninstall the default windows drivers and install their own? Was that too hard compared to just disabling windows update?
- rubbingalcohol 11y ago
  Most vendors I've dealt with have their drivers certified with Microsoft's WHQL program and pushed out automatically through Windows update. I'm not sure why Samsung couldn't have done it this way.
  - daemin 11y ago
    Maybe the stuffed up the hardware so the ID's they use actually map to other devices by other vendors.
frik 11y ago
If Samsung blocks the Windows 10 "important" nagware patch KB 3035583 that installs autimatically on Windows 7-8.1 (except on PC with Domain/AD) than it's a service to the user. It replaces the Windows Update dialog with an Windows 10 advertisement and it adds a second start button to the startmenu that lauches an advertisement app. If you click the wrong button it will automatically download Windows 10 in the background - Microsoft's way to not repeat the Vista, Win8 and Win8.1 launch fiascos. To each their own, some also like the Ask toolbar that comes with Flash installer. http://www.infoworld.com/article/2907472/operating-systems/windows-10-upgrade-nagware-patch-kb-3035583-now-marked-important-on-some-win7-pcs.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2907472/operating-systems/w...
- Zweihander 11y ago
  Adware vs Malware is an important distinction. No one here is claiming Microsoft are saints but what Samsung is doing (if true) is at best Lenovo level malicious negligence.
- interurban 11y ago
  Windows 10 isn't released yet, so there's no way that I'm aware of for it to download Windows 10 in the background.
  - JadeNB 11y ago
    Although the language is a bit cagey, it seems like at least parts of Windows 10 will be downloaded before the official availability date: > Between reservation and when your upgrade is ready, the files you need for the upgrade will be downloaded to your PC to make the final installation go more quickly. (from http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-faq http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-faq > What happens when I reserve?).
    - interurban 11y ago
      I stand at least partially corrected, that certainly is some vague phrasing. It could be anything from installer files to the whole OS.
Animats 11y ago
Normally, you'd expect a major hardware vendor and a major software vendor to be talking enough to avoid such problems. Does this indicate that Microsoft and Samsung are not getting along? That's quite possible, since they compete in tablets now.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Eh normally you just expect hardware vendors to be so incompetent at writing software that this isn't too surprising.
nivla 11y ago
I don't understand, why is Samsung pulling stunts like this all the time? It would make sense if they were trying to get up the ladder but they are already there, they hold an unquestionably large market share of Android. Things like these won't do any good in the long run but only prompt consumers to actively avoid the brand. Some of the things that really surprises me: [1] http://gizmodo.com/samsung-rigged-the-s4-to-unnaturally-perform-better-in-971577921 http://gizmodo.com/samsung-rigged-the-s4-to-unnaturally-perf... [2] http://www.neowin.net/news/samsungs-gamepad-is-a-microsoft-lawsuit-waiting-to-happen http://www.neowin.net/news/samsungs-gamepad-is-a-microsoft-l... [3] http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/technology/security/samsung-smart-tv-privacy/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/technology/security/samsung-...
- darkmighty 11y ago
  I think the most simple explanation is that they can get away with it without substantial backlash.
  - ars 11y ago
    Still doesn't explain why. Are you suggesting they are doing it just for fun?
    - darkmighty 11y ago
      Well the ultimate 'why' is obviously aiming for monetary gain since they are a company, I was referring to a shallower 'why'.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - nailer 11y ago
      They're doing it for money. They game benchmarks for sales. They disable windows updates because they can't make USB 3 work with the drivers you get from windows update.
    - MBCook 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
scrapcode 11y ago
Of course this is ridiculous in the lens of a privacy aware techie. In the lens of a consumer-first corporation such as Samsung, is this possibly the result of "convention over configuration" from the eyes of management demanding this kind of (de)functionality from their devs? I think we should start focusing on a fundamental shift on what management means and how accountable that position is.
Mikeb85 11y ago
To be fair, Windows generally updates itself at the worst times, rendering your computer inoperable for an absurdly long time (a typical Windows update often takes longer than updating to a completely new version of a typical Linux distro). OEMs should just throw their weight behind one of the commercial Linuxes and be done with the madness. They want to compete with Apple and OSX, that's their chance.
- nitramnitram 11y ago
  Wait a sec.. Apple has like 8% market share for desktops while Windows has ~80%. And Linux has just a few percents.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    If you look at market share for consumers, Apple is doing much better. HP, Lenovo and Dell still rule the enterprise, but Apple does very well with consumers. And more and more enterprises are moving to cloud based solutions, buying tablets and negating the 'need' for PCs, even if for the time being they're still buying cheap PCs.
    - nitramnitram 11y ago
      If we limit the scoop to consumer computers, including Linux seems odd. At least in Sweden extremely few people are using Linux on their computers. Even with Macs it's less than 30%. Can you clarify why big brands should switch to Linux for their consumer PCs considering that few consumers wants it?
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        Thats one of those chicken and egg things, in particular when MS software has been the big dog of the market for so long.
    - tracker1 11y ago
      I can't imagine a company pushing for tablets as general purpose devices for a lot of things... as a POS (point of sale) terminal, or even for standing sales reps, sure... But real productivity is so much worse in line of business applications on a tablet vs. desktop. Screen size/space is king, and nobody is going to work on a 20" tablet... or give up half the screen to a keyboard. Let alone how tired will your arms be by the end of a day without a mouse for anything. I know you can tap a keyboard/mouse to a tablet, but at that point, you've spent more money than a low end laptop or desktop, with worse productivity and output.
vxNsr 11y ago
Well this is a truly terrifying turn of events, though the most amazing part is that chat agent was any help at all, I was expecting a recommendation that he call the support line or an outright denial. so samsung can at least be commended for giving their staff at least a little training.
darkhorn 11y ago
If you install Turkcell's 3G connection app (which comes with the dongle) you will see that it disables internet sharing forever.
Zekio 11y ago
Well at least nobody was surprised by this, so that is good right? Jokes aside, this is ridiculously fucked up.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - Zekio 11y ago
    They clearly can't write software properly, or figure out how to contact Microsoft to actually use Windows Update to push out drivers.
curiousnoob 11y ago
I don't quite understand why this is fucked up. Could someone elaborate? (I'm not doubting that it is fucked up at all. I would just like to understand it) Is it that the developer of the OS is offering users a free better version and the OEM is preventing its users from benefiting? Why would Samsung do this? What could their incentive be?
- tacticus 11y ago
  The OEM is disabling all updates. Security patches and better drivers (that are published through windows updates from the ODM). not just new features. Would you like winodws xp blaster boxes to return.
lucb1e 11y ago
TL;DR: Samsung's software is meant to install device drivers for your laptop. Because there are also drivers in Windows Update that Samsung considers conflicting, they disabled all of Windows Update to prevent those drivers from being installed.
pja 11y ago
This is about as end-user hostile as the Lenovo Superfish thing. By the sounds of things, Samsung has managed to ship some of their laptops with devices that fail with the standard windows devices drivers, but don’t have their own pci-id which would allow Samsung to ship a custom driver. Samsung’s solution to this is not to issue a hardware recall & replace the laptops, but to expose their customers’ private personal information to every future malware author on the planet. In some ways, this is worse than Superfish. Superfish was at least not deliberate; it seems pretty clear that Lenovo really didn’t understand the full implications of what they were doing by installing it on their laptops. There’s no way that Samsung doesn’t understand that by disabling Windows Update they are trading off their customers’ security against the cost of a hardware recall. (It wouldn’t surprise me to discover that Microsoft actually has ways of blacklisting driver updates under Windows Update & will liaise with OEMs to help them sort out problems like this - it wouldn’t be that hard to maintain a list of 'if the hardware looks like this then install that driver instead of the standard one'. In which case Samsung is simply trading off a bit of management time against their customers’ security which is even more unacceptable.)
- polymatter 11y ago
  its probably a short term fix while they work through the process of working out how to identify the defective machines and isolate them properly within Windows Updates. still incredibly dodgy though.
k2point0 11y ago
That's weird thing that I have heard about Samsung Windows Updates.
yrro 11y ago
I'm amazed that you're allowed to do this and still ship with the Windows logo!
galfarragem 11y ago
Is it safe/efficient to uninstall all bloatware from a laptop? I own a Samsung and over the years I've unninstalled the obvious bloatware without any problem. I wonder if I can delete all of them.
- SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
  I've taken this approach on others' PCs before with great effect (msconfig is your friend) but sometimes it's just quicker to do a clean install. I tend to triple boot Linux / Windows / Current-tinkering-OS-of-choice on my own machine so I'll usually dedicate at least a day to getting everything set up when I have a new one.
- nathankleyn 11y ago
  First thing I do when I get a new laptop is wipe it completely and do a fresh install. You can selectively restore the drivers/software you actually need. Of course it goes without saying that this isn't something most of the millions of unknowing Samsung customers are likely to be able to do themselves, let alone be aware it's even a good idea.
rossng 11y ago
I'm not that surprised. SW Update and Easy Settings are among the two worst pieces of software I've ever used. If I press the volume keys on my (i7, Ivy Bridge) Samsung laptop, I often have to wait several minutes before anything happens. Better yet, a clean Windows install on that machine will always fail because for some reason the laptop lets Windows install the bootloader to the mini cache SSD - which the BIOS doesn't recognise. I'm not going to be buying another Samsung PC.
jug 11y ago
Wow... > For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. So to prevent this, SW Update tool will prevent the Windows updates. Pretty sure this sentence causes brain damage just by reading it. I hope this receives Microsoft's attention. They take Windows Update very seriously these days and will probably flip over this.
saturdaysaint 11y ago
Microsoft should start some kind of initiative to make building your own laptop more like Google's Project ARA. No manufacturer is doing a thing to advance the Windows platform but there's actually a competitive, vibrant market in a lot of aftermarket part categories (on desktop) - look at the shootouts for CPU fans, keyboards, cases, monitors. I'd gladly pay a little bit more and sacrifice some mobility to be able select a high quality frame, top-notch keyboard, silent/high quality PSU and lack of crapware. I built a fast but near-silent Windows PC for music a few years back and I'm still impressed by what a great system it is.

316 points by firloop 11y ago

I'm fed up with these hardware vendors incessantly messing with software. Why doesn't Microsoft tighten up its OEM licensing terms to put an end to this kind of thing?

bskap 11y ago
Because the US and EU have repeatedly told Microsoft that they're not allowed to force OEMs to use their software.
- viraptor 11y ago
  I'm not sure this applies. "You're not allowed to disable updates" is not even close to "You cannot install any browser other than IE".
  - bskap 11y ago
    I'm not sure Microsoft wants to gamble $1 billion that "You have to use Microsoft's updater" is different than "you have to include Windows Media Player".
Encosia 11y ago
A little anti-trust action against you by the government will do that. Though it may not have been solely consumer friendly in the past, strongarming OEMs to avoid these kinds of messes was one of the things that got them in trouble 15 years ago.

jriordan 11y ago

Microsoft owns Windows. Licenses it to OEMs. If Microsoft didn't have a problem with OEM's disabling Windows Update, then then would have prohibited it in their license agreement.

Aloha 11y ago
I'd be very surprised if the OEM license doesn't include such language - just because its there doesn't mean Microsoft is aware of what the OEM's are doing.
Qantourisc 11y ago
There is also the possiblity nobody considered this to be a problem ... ever ...

smaili 11y ago

Fantastic discovery! Kind of makes me wonder if there are other OEMs doing the same kind of thing and we just never noticed it.

userbinator 11y ago
we just never noticed it. Quite likely if those who would have the knowledge to look into such things are also those who would just reformat the drive and install a fresh copy of the OS.
- tracker1 11y ago
  It's funny, but that's usually the first thing I do with new hardware... though it's also because in general I put in more RAM, and an SSD. Discovering my new rMBP (from August) can't have the memory upgraded and wasn't using the same msata interface as everyone else was disappointing. I typically DIY my own desktop builds, but laptops are getting way too locked down for my taste... I would expect memory, storage and battery to be user servicable on a > $1k laptop. Between Sony, Lenovo and now Samsung... I'm getting really sick of this kind of crap.

UnoriginalGuy 11y ago

If this is true (and frankly I know for a fact it is, as I just downloaded the linked file containing Disable_Windowsupdate.exe, which is signed by Samsung Electronics CO and downloaded from Samsung's own servers) then Microsoft should pick up the phone and threaten the heck out of Samsung, Microsoft while somewhat neutered by anti-trust still has a great deal of power over OEMs and stuff like this is a perfect time to [ab]use it.

tantalor 11y ago
Yet, Microsoft is responsible for allowing such software to run in the background with no notification or authorization by the user or means to disable it.
- monochromatic 11y ago
  Yes, it's almost as if executable code is... executable.
  - orestisfl 11y ago
    intel's fault for developing x86
- pilif 11y ago
  It's really hard to find the correct middle-ground. Would you prefer if Windows worked like iOS where there are serious limitations on what apps can do in the background and where every application has to go through a central authority for vetting? Or do you propose a solution that gives both freedom to the user while also not allowing something like this to happen? Yes, there are whitelisting solutions (built into the OS by MS, btw), but they are a real pain in the ass to use - there's just too much stuff running on your machine at any given time.
  - ninkendo 11y ago
    > Would you prefer if Windows worked like iOS where there are serious limitations on what apps can do in the background and where every application has to go through a central authority for vetting? I've thought about this for a while, and honestly, for desktops/notebooks/tablets? Yes. Maybe not just one App Store like iOS, but at least sandbox all possible non-os code similarly to ChromeOS, in a way that's on by default and requires a boot-time flag to disable (and users should be allowed to do this, but OEMs shouldn't.) Recently my dad bought a new $300 toshiba laptop because his old machine was just "slow", as in he had so much spyware on his computer that it was easier to just buy a new one than going through the hassle of cleaning up his old one. Even though his old laptop was perfectly good and of a recent hardware generation. I'm 100% positive he's going to have the same issues on his new laptop, and his response was that he uses his iPad so much that it doesn't matter anyway. The role of the modern day OS has changed immensely over the years. Nowadays there's simply no reason for legitimate applications to have the level of access to the underlying system that they used to have. Apps really don't need arbitrary filesystem access. They don't need to be able to overwrite core system files. They should be run in a sandbox or a container with as restricted of a set of permissions as possible. For servers and development workstations the story is a little bit different, but those are exceptions to the rule, and with the proper release hatches like boot-time enabling of un-sandboxed code it's a good tradeoff IMO.

bentcorner 11y ago

Isn't there a method by which Samsung can deliver to Microsoft the set of drivers required for their hardware, to solve this exact problem? Is this a matter of Samsung not wanting to go through the WHQL process?

crdoconnor 11y ago
It's possible that Microsoft have been covertly throttling the WHQL process to punish Samsung somehow. They are competing head on with Microsoft in a number of other markets (tablets, etc.), and WHQL is not really subject to much, if any, legal scrutiny.
- PlzSnow 11y ago
  absurd nonsense
- SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
  Yes, I hear 9/11 was an inside job as well...
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    Somebody clearly wasn't around in the 90s.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
      I was born in 1984, I remember the 90s well... If Apple have completely reinvented themselves, why not Microsoft?
- peteri 11y ago
  As far as I know WHQL is automated so it's unlikely. i.e. you test it rather than MS and submit the results to them. MS then sign the driver package and pass it back. Don't think there are any humans involved.

firloop 11y ago

Meta: I submitted this post with the article's title but it seems the mods have changed the title to something less loaded.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
imrehg 11y ago
That's weird. I don't think I like that the mods can tone down an article title, when submitters are expected to use the original. If the article title makes a wrong claim, the comments and the voting mechanism will take care of that, does not seem to be the call mods should be making....
- taspeotis 11y ago
  > when submitters are expected to use the original Except for all the cases that they are not expected to use the original [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  The guidelines are: * If you use the original title, that's wrong; you should use a less-sensationalized title. * If you use a less-sensationalized title, that's wrong; you should use the original title. I hope that clears it up.
dang 11y ago
HN has never had a "original titles only" rule. If it did, anyone could get whatever they wanted on the front page just by giving a post a manipulative title. That's why the guidelines ask to use the original title unless it is misleading or linkbait. Is this one misleading? I can't say. In cases where we are in no position to judge the accuracy of a dramatic claim, we sometimes add a question mark. It's a lightweight way to make the title provisionally conform to HN's guidelines while the community sorts out what's going on.

userbinator 11y ago

Samsung provides their own updating software? I'm not surprised... consumer hardware and the drivers associated with them is in general a horrible mess of workarounds and I feel it's only going to get worse. For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. That's a pretty minor problem compared to what I've heard: automatic BIOS updates, which happen silently and brick the machine without any prior warning. Ironically it is the "update culture" that brought us this whole mess in the first place; pushing out software (and hardware) that barely works "because we can always update it later", patching around bugs, and then realising that your patches break if someone else changes a piece you depend on, and so forth, thus leading to ultimatum situations like this.

vcarl 11y ago

> When you enable Windows updates, it will install the Default Drivers for all the hardware no laptop which may or may not work. For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. So to prevent this, SW Update tool will prevent the Windows updates. So they "fixed" the problem of their driver getting overwritten by disabling all OS level updates? Oof. Screams shoddy development if this is true.

kbenson 11y ago
I wonder if it was meant to be a short term fix until some drivers passed certification or something? Or maybe their software update selectively runs windows update to find updates and notifies the user? I wonder how long it's been set up this way? None of these are good, but the details may mitigate quite how bad it is (in spirit, if not reality).
jbdigriz 11y ago
Is this even true? Windows updates only drop critical updates and can't think of a case where updated Windows drivers were automatically installed over existing drivers without explicit request or prompting to do so (except perhaps for critical flaws where the driver itself compromises security). Just yesterday I had to manually find and select an optional driver update for Intel HD graphics which one would expect to be in category of "autoupdate" if this were true... Disabling ALL of Windows Update for this questionable reason seems entirely out of line. If their own SW Update software is already present, why not instead track said drivers and simply alert the user that vendor specific drivers must be used, offering the ability to restore them?? Makes no sense...
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  Generally, Windows Update will update your drivers to the most recent version MS has available -- but they mandate WHQL drivers, so they're rarely the most recent. For example, while MS has nVidia drivers up on Windows Update, if you have a more recent version direct from nVidia, it will not overwrite that. This situation is 100% on Samsung. They've put hardware out there that they can't target properly to overwrite the generic version.

gruez 11y ago

Why couldn't samsung's service just programmatically uninstall the default windows drivers and install their own? Was that too hard compared to just disabling windows update?

rubbingalcohol 11y ago
Most vendors I've dealt with have their drivers certified with Microsoft's WHQL program and pushed out automatically through Windows update. I'm not sure why Samsung couldn't have done it this way.
- daemin 11y ago
  Maybe the stuffed up the hardware so the ID's they use actually map to other devices by other vendors.

frik 11y ago

If Samsung blocks the Windows 10 "important" nagware patch KB 3035583 that installs autimatically on Windows 7-8.1 (except on PC with Domain/AD) than it's a service to the user. It replaces the Windows Update dialog with an Windows 10 advertisement and it adds a second start button to the startmenu that lauches an advertisement app. If you click the wrong button it will automatically download Windows 10 in the background - Microsoft's way to not repeat the Vista, Win8 and Win8.1 launch fiascos. To each their own, some also like the Ask toolbar that comes with Flash installer. http://www.infoworld.com/article/2907472/operating-systems/windows-10-upgrade-nagware-patch-kb-3035583-now-marked-important-on-some-win7-pcs.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2907472/operating-systems/w...

Zweihander 11y ago
Adware vs Malware is an important distinction. No one here is claiming Microsoft are saints but what Samsung is doing (if true) is at best Lenovo level malicious negligence.
interurban 11y ago
Windows 10 isn't released yet, so there's no way that I'm aware of for it to download Windows 10 in the background.
- JadeNB 11y ago
  Although the language is a bit cagey, it seems like at least parts of Windows 10 will be downloaded before the official availability date: > Between reservation and when your upgrade is ready, the files you need for the upgrade will be downloaded to your PC to make the final installation go more quickly. (from http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-faq http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-faq > What happens when I reserve?).
  - interurban 11y ago
    I stand at least partially corrected, that certainly is some vague phrasing. It could be anything from installer files to the whole OS.

Animats 11y ago

Normally, you'd expect a major hardware vendor and a major software vendor to be talking enough to avoid such problems. Does this indicate that Microsoft and Samsung are not getting along? That's quite possible, since they compete in tablets now.

MichaelGG 11y ago
Eh normally you just expect hardware vendors to be so incompetent at writing software that this isn't too surprising.

nivla 11y ago

I don't understand, why is Samsung pulling stunts like this all the time? It would make sense if they were trying to get up the ladder but they are already there, they hold an unquestionably large market share of Android. Things like these won't do any good in the long run but only prompt consumers to actively avoid the brand. Some of the things that really surprises me: [1] http://gizmodo.com/samsung-rigged-the-s4-to-unnaturally-perform-better-in-971577921 http://gizmodo.com/samsung-rigged-the-s4-to-unnaturally-perf... [2] http://www.neowin.net/news/samsungs-gamepad-is-a-microsoft-lawsuit-waiting-to-happen http://www.neowin.net/news/samsungs-gamepad-is-a-microsoft-l... [3] http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/technology/security/samsung-smart-tv-privacy/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/technology/security/samsung-...

darkmighty 11y ago
I think the most simple explanation is that they can get away with it without substantial backlash.
- ars 11y ago
  Still doesn't explain why. Are you suggesting they are doing it just for fun?
  - darkmighty 11y ago
    Well the ultimate 'why' is obviously aiming for monetary gain since they are a company, I was referring to a shallower 'why'.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - nailer 11y ago
    They're doing it for money. They game benchmarks for sales. They disable windows updates because they can't make USB 3 work with the drivers you get from windows update.
  - MBCook 11y ago

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scrapcode 11y ago

Of course this is ridiculous in the lens of a privacy aware techie. In the lens of a consumer-first corporation such as Samsung, is this possibly the result of "convention over configuration" from the eyes of management demanding this kind of (de)functionality from their devs? I think we should start focusing on a fundamental shift on what management means and how accountable that position is.

Mikeb85 11y ago

To be fair, Windows generally updates itself at the worst times, rendering your computer inoperable for an absurdly long time (a typical Windows update often takes longer than updating to a completely new version of a typical Linux distro). OEMs should just throw their weight behind one of the commercial Linuxes and be done with the madness. They want to compete with Apple and OSX, that's their chance.

nitramnitram 11y ago
Wait a sec.. Apple has like 8% market share for desktops while Windows has ~80%. And Linux has just a few percents.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  If you look at market share for consumers, Apple is doing much better. HP, Lenovo and Dell still rule the enterprise, but Apple does very well with consumers. And more and more enterprises are moving to cloud based solutions, buying tablets and negating the 'need' for PCs, even if for the time being they're still buying cheap PCs.
  - nitramnitram 11y ago
    If we limit the scoop to consumer computers, including Linux seems odd. At least in Sweden extremely few people are using Linux on their computers. Even with Macs it's less than 30%. Can you clarify why big brands should switch to Linux for their consumer PCs considering that few consumers wants it?
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      Thats one of those chicken and egg things, in particular when MS software has been the big dog of the market for so long.
  - tracker1 11y ago
    I can't imagine a company pushing for tablets as general purpose devices for a lot of things... as a POS (point of sale) terminal, or even for standing sales reps, sure... But real productivity is so much worse in line of business applications on a tablet vs. desktop. Screen size/space is king, and nobody is going to work on a 20" tablet... or give up half the screen to a keyboard. Let alone how tired will your arms be by the end of a day without a mouse for anything. I know you can tap a keyboard/mouse to a tablet, but at that point, you've spent more money than a low end laptop or desktop, with worse productivity and output.

vxNsr 11y ago

Well this is a truly terrifying turn of events, though the most amazing part is that chat agent was any help at all, I was expecting a recommendation that he call the support line or an outright denial. so samsung can at least be commended for giving their staff at least a little training.

darkhorn 11y ago

If you install Turkcell's 3G connection app (which comes with the dongle) you will see that it disables internet sharing forever.

Zekio 11y ago

Well at least nobody was surprised by this, so that is good right? Jokes aside, this is ridiculously fucked up.

deleted 11y ago
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- Zekio 11y ago
  They clearly can't write software properly, or figure out how to contact Microsoft to actually use Windows Update to push out drivers.

curiousnoob 11y ago

I don't quite understand why this is fucked up. Could someone elaborate? (I'm not doubting that it is fucked up at all. I would just like to understand it) Is it that the developer of the OS is offering users a free better version and the OEM is preventing its users from benefiting? Why would Samsung do this? What could their incentive be?

tacticus 11y ago
The OEM is disabling all updates. Security patches and better drivers (that are published through windows updates from the ODM). not just new features. Would you like winodws xp blaster boxes to return.

lucb1e 11y ago

TL;DR: Samsung's software is meant to install device drivers for your laptop. Because there are also drivers in Windows Update that Samsung considers conflicting, they disabled all of Windows Update to prevent those drivers from being installed.

pja 11y ago

This is about as end-user hostile as the Lenovo Superfish thing. By the sounds of things, Samsung has managed to ship some of their laptops with devices that fail with the standard windows devices drivers, but don’t have their own pci-id which would allow Samsung to ship a custom driver. Samsung’s solution to this is not to issue a hardware recall & replace the laptops, but to expose their customers’ private personal information to every future malware author on the planet. In some ways, this is worse than Superfish. Superfish was at least not deliberate; it seems pretty clear that Lenovo really didn’t understand the full implications of what they were doing by installing it on their laptops. There’s no way that Samsung doesn’t understand that by disabling Windows Update they are trading off their customers’ security against the cost of a hardware recall. (It wouldn’t surprise me to discover that Microsoft actually has ways of blacklisting driver updates under Windows Update & will liaise with OEMs to help them sort out problems like this - it wouldn’t be that hard to maintain a list of 'if the hardware looks like this then install that driver instead of the standard one'. In which case Samsung is simply trading off a bit of management time against their customers’ security which is even more unacceptable.)

polymatter 11y ago
its probably a short term fix while they work through the process of working out how to identify the defective machines and isolate them properly within Windows Updates. still incredibly dodgy though.

k2point0 11y ago

That's weird thing that I have heard about Samsung Windows Updates.

yrro 11y ago

I'm amazed that you're allowed to do this and still ship with the Windows logo!

galfarragem 11y ago

Is it safe/efficient to uninstall all bloatware from a laptop? I own a Samsung and over the years I've unninstalled the obvious bloatware without any problem. I wonder if I can delete all of them.

SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
I've taken this approach on others' PCs before with great effect (msconfig is your friend) but sometimes it's just quicker to do a clean install. I tend to triple boot Linux / Windows / Current-tinkering-OS-of-choice on my own machine so I'll usually dedicate at least a day to getting everything set up when I have a new one.
nathankleyn 11y ago
First thing I do when I get a new laptop is wipe it completely and do a fresh install. You can selectively restore the drivers/software you actually need. Of course it goes without saying that this isn't something most of the millions of unknowing Samsung customers are likely to be able to do themselves, let alone be aware it's even a good idea.

rossng 11y ago

I'm not that surprised. SW Update and Easy Settings are among the two worst pieces of software I've ever used. If I press the volume keys on my (i7, Ivy Bridge) Samsung laptop, I often have to wait several minutes before anything happens. Better yet, a clean Windows install on that machine will always fail because for some reason the laptop lets Windows install the bootloader to the mini cache SSD - which the BIOS doesn't recognise. I'm not going to be buying another Samsung PC.

jug 11y ago

Wow... > For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. So to prevent this, SW Update tool will prevent the Windows updates. Pretty sure this sentence causes brain damage just by reading it. I hope this receives Microsoft's attention. They take Windows Update very seriously these days and will probably flip over this.

saturdaysaint 11y ago

Microsoft should start some kind of initiative to make building your own laptop more like Google's Project ARA. No manufacturer is doing a thing to advance the Windows platform but there's actually a competitive, vibrant market in a lot of aftermarket part categories (on desktop) - look at the shootouts for CPU fans, keyboards, cases, monitors. I'd gladly pay a little bit more and sacrifice some mobility to be able select a high quality frame, top-notch keyboard, silent/high quality PSU and lack of crapware. I built a fast but near-silent Windows PC for music a few years back and I'm still impressed by what a great system it is.