12 ms·

Out of all those, >Uber alone sets prices is the killer one. I guess the only solution to that would be to make it more of a market where drivers could choose

by djm_ 11y ago

Out of all those, >Uber alone sets prices is the killer one. I guess the only solution to that would be to make it more of a market where drivers could choose their rate to compete.

arebop 11y ago
We know how to run fast auctions, so this doesn't seem hard to solve. #5 Managerial Skills seems harder to work around.
- swozey 11y ago
  I'm not sure why. I quit using Taxis as much as possible because of absolutely rude or terrible drivers. Thus they affected my business, and I went to Uber/Lyft. If I had a row of terrible Uber experiences I would quit using Uber.
  - Daishiman 11y ago
    That's already happening as Uber is reducing the compensation of drivers across the board.
    - swozey 11y ago
      Well, for me it started happening when Taxi drivers (the same rude people I was trying to avoid) started becoming Uber drivers as well. Sometimes I'll take an Uber and just be like, Oh, great, this guy is clearly a Taxi driver. I'll probably have to explain where to go, but at least he can't bitch and moan about me paying with a credit card.
nemo44x 11y ago
Exactly. Independent contractors set their own pricing. If Uber would allow the drivers to set their rates and then "hire" who they felt was best for them (and then markup the price to the customer for their own profit) only then would the drivers be in control of payment. This is how every other independent contractor works.
- viscanti 11y ago
  It's a different situation though. I've never seen any employee ever working for two companies in the same "shift". I see lots of Uber drivers taking Lyft trips. Riders set the rates with demand based pricing and drivers choose which one gives them the best opportunity at each trip request. That's a unique situation, so a comparison to "every other independent contractor" misses the point here.
  - deathhand 11y ago
    Riders do not set the rates of "demand based pricing". There is a set floor price for a car ride with uber. If no one is riding the price is still set in stone. Increasing prices based upon arbitrary percentage utilization does not make it a 'free market'.
    - jacobr1 11y ago
      The idea would be for drivers to in some way set the price - not riders.
    - zaroth 11y ago
      Rates are variable, and drivers choose when to drive. I've taken several rides where the driver only works during "surge" hours. What am I missing here?
      - dragontamer 11y ago
        Drivers didn't set the rate. Ebay for instance, the suppliers set the prices. Amazon Marketplace: the seller sets the prices (not Amazon). Uber sets the prices, NOT the free market.
        ahallock 11y ago
        You're misusing free market. If the gov had set Uber's prices, you'd be correct. This is just Uber's model (regardless of the whole employer/contractor debate). Another competitor is free to come up with a different model where driver's can set the rate.
wiredfool 11y ago
Taxis also have set prices, though I think that Uber would want avoid that line of reasoning.
- eli 11y ago
  Aren't taxicab drivers also employees in California?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - dnautics 11y ago
    No, they rent the taxi, so they are customers of the taxi company.
    - eli 11y ago
      Huh? Who signs their checks?
      - dnautics 11y ago
        Passengers?
      - quadrangle 11y ago
        Independent contractors still get checks signed by the entity contracting them. This is not a useful or appropriate point regarding the contractor vs employee distinction.
- mikeokner 11y ago
  But taxi drivers are usually W-2 employees, not independent contractors AFAIK.
  - harryh 11y ago
    Nope. Taxi drivers take home their fares. They aren't paid by the hour.
theklub 11y ago
That would be really cool, a ride marketplace that lets you choose the driver based on rate (and or other factors). Does that exist already? If not, it should.
- goeric 11y ago
  Yep, Sidecar has been doing this for a while.
pbreit 11y ago
So would merely allowing tipping (which it absolutely should do either way) be sufficient? How about Sidecar's approach of actually letting drivers price their services (to some degree)?
- bkd9 11y ago
  My thoughts as well. Maybe Uber and Lyft will migrate to this pricing model if it helps them get around these legal issues. Does anyone with legal knowledge know if this is a viable strategy?
voidlogic 11y ago
I wonder about allowing drivers to bid on taking customers/routes?
prawn 11y ago
While that might appeal to some people (competition, etc), I think it would seriously weaken Uber from the perspective of marketing. Consistency of experience or pricing has been a huge driver for many businesses (Walmart, McDonalds, etc).
prawn 11y ago
While that might appeal to some people (competition, etc), I think it would seriously weaken Uber from the perspective of marketing. Consistency of experience or pricing has been a huge driver for many businesses (Walmart, McDonalds, etc).
alasdair_ 11y ago
How does this differ from the idea that if I want to get a fence built and I call up three fencing contractors and tell them "I am paying $1000 for a fence", I'm effectively setting prices. It's not as it uber is the only employer - most drivers I've seen use lyft as well and choose between them at will.
- justinv 11y ago
  In that case, you're the direct customer. As a rider, I cannot tell Uber I want to pay $20 to get me to the airport, I can accept their prices or not use the service. Uber is setting the prices for their drivers.
- moogleii 11y ago
  I didn't read the ruling, and I'm not sure if any one of those points is a "killer" vs the others, but I have seen that autonomy is a big check to determine contractor vs employee (touched on by 2, 5, and 6). Loosely speaking, when using a contractor, you're really only supposed to specify the end result/requirements that you want, and then it's up to the contractor to figure out how to get there, be it a new room expansion, or a website. With the constraints of 2, 5, and 6, it seems the court feels that drivers don't have that much autonomy.
marincounty 11y ago
The ever changing vechicle requirement has always has always baffled me? 2008 four door! Then 2000 when driver enrollment drops? The Uber fancy cars must be black on black? People were going into debt in order to make Uber money. (I am so glad the government stepped in on this one.)
pbreit 11y ago
Sidecar does this and it worsens the user experience for the most part. If this really is the key, I wonder how much lee-way Uber would need to offer to get over the hurdle. There are obviously ways it can offer pricing control but effectively get everyone at or near the desired price. Which I suspect would not fly.

by djm_ 11y ago

Out of all those, >Uber alone sets prices is the killer one. I guess the only solution to that would be to make it more of a market where drivers could choose their rate to compete.

arebop 11y ago

We know how to run fast auctions, so this doesn't seem hard to solve. #5 Managerial Skills seems harder to work around.

swozey 11y ago
I'm not sure why. I quit using Taxis as much as possible because of absolutely rude or terrible drivers. Thus they affected my business, and I went to Uber/Lyft. If I had a row of terrible Uber experiences I would quit using Uber.
- Daishiman 11y ago
  That's already happening as Uber is reducing the compensation of drivers across the board.
  - swozey 11y ago
    Well, for me it started happening when Taxi drivers (the same rude people I was trying to avoid) started becoming Uber drivers as well. Sometimes I'll take an Uber and just be like, Oh, great, this guy is clearly a Taxi driver. I'll probably have to explain where to go, but at least he can't bitch and moan about me paying with a credit card.

nemo44x 11y ago

Exactly. Independent contractors set their own pricing. If Uber would allow the drivers to set their rates and then "hire" who they felt was best for them (and then markup the price to the customer for their own profit) only then would the drivers be in control of payment. This is how every other independent contractor works.

viscanti 11y ago
It's a different situation though. I've never seen any employee ever working for two companies in the same "shift". I see lots of Uber drivers taking Lyft trips. Riders set the rates with demand based pricing and drivers choose which one gives them the best opportunity at each trip request. That's a unique situation, so a comparison to "every other independent contractor" misses the point here.
- deathhand 11y ago
  Riders do not set the rates of "demand based pricing". There is a set floor price for a car ride with uber. If no one is riding the price is still set in stone. Increasing prices based upon arbitrary percentage utilization does not make it a 'free market'.
  - jacobr1 11y ago
    The idea would be for drivers to in some way set the price - not riders.
  - zaroth 11y ago
    Rates are variable, and drivers choose when to drive. I've taken several rides where the driver only works during "surge" hours. What am I missing here?
    - dragontamer 11y ago
      Drivers didn't set the rate. Ebay for instance, the suppliers set the prices. Amazon Marketplace: the seller sets the prices (not Amazon). Uber sets the prices, NOT the free market.
      - ahallock 11y ago
        You're misusing free market. If the gov had set Uber's prices, you'd be correct. This is just Uber's model (regardless of the whole employer/contractor debate). Another competitor is free to come up with a different model where driver's can set the rate.

wiredfool 11y ago

Taxis also have set prices, though I think that Uber would want avoid that line of reasoning.

eli 11y ago
Aren't taxicab drivers also employees in California?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dnautics 11y ago
  No, they rent the taxi, so they are customers of the taxi company.
  - eli 11y ago
    Huh? Who signs their checks?
    - dnautics 11y ago
      Passengers?
    - quadrangle 11y ago
      Independent contractors still get checks signed by the entity contracting them. This is not a useful or appropriate point regarding the contractor vs employee distinction.
mikeokner 11y ago
But taxi drivers are usually W-2 employees, not independent contractors AFAIK.
- harryh 11y ago
  Nope. Taxi drivers take home their fares. They aren't paid by the hour.

theklub 11y ago

That would be really cool, a ride marketplace that lets you choose the driver based on rate (and or other factors). Does that exist already? If not, it should.

goeric 11y ago
Yep, Sidecar has been doing this for a while.

pbreit 11y ago

So would merely allowing tipping (which it absolutely should do either way) be sufficient? How about Sidecar's approach of actually letting drivers price their services (to some degree)?

bkd9 11y ago
My thoughts as well. Maybe Uber and Lyft will migrate to this pricing model if it helps them get around these legal issues. Does anyone with legal knowledge know if this is a viable strategy?

voidlogic 11y ago

I wonder about allowing drivers to bid on taking customers/routes?

prawn 11y ago

While that might appeal to some people (competition, etc), I think it would seriously weaken Uber from the perspective of marketing. Consistency of experience or pricing has been a huge driver for many businesses (Walmart, McDonalds, etc).

prawn 11y ago

alasdair_ 11y ago

How does this differ from the idea that if I want to get a fence built and I call up three fencing contractors and tell them "I am paying $1000 for a fence", I'm effectively setting prices. It's not as it uber is the only employer - most drivers I've seen use lyft as well and choose between them at will.

justinv 11y ago
In that case, you're the direct customer. As a rider, I cannot tell Uber I want to pay $20 to get me to the airport, I can accept their prices or not use the service. Uber is setting the prices for their drivers.
moogleii 11y ago
I didn't read the ruling, and I'm not sure if any one of those points is a "killer" vs the others, but I have seen that autonomy is a big check to determine contractor vs employee (touched on by 2, 5, and 6). Loosely speaking, when using a contractor, you're really only supposed to specify the end result/requirements that you want, and then it's up to the contractor to figure out how to get there, be it a new room expansion, or a website. With the constraints of 2, 5, and 6, it seems the court feels that drivers don't have that much autonomy.

marincounty 11y ago

The ever changing vechicle requirement has always has always baffled me? 2008 four door! Then 2000 when driver enrollment drops? The Uber fancy cars must be black on black? People were going into debt in order to make Uber money. (I am so glad the government stepped in on this one.)

pbreit 11y ago

Sidecar does this and it worsens the user experience for the most part. If this really is the key, I wonder how much lee-way Uber would need to offer to get over the hurdle. There are obviously ways it can offer pricing control but effectively get everyone at or near the desired price. Which I suspect would not fly.