13 ms·

Skimming through the doc, court findings are: 1) Drivers providing their own cars is not a strong factor - pizza delivery employees also drive their own cars.

• fillskills 11y ago
  Thanks, now it makes sense to me. Lot of these points ring true, specifically 3 and 4
• heimatau 11y ago
  Thanks for the breakdown. Sounds like a solid explanation. I wonder what other states/nations will do. This could affect the business model of Uber dramatically by increasing their costs and liabilities.
  • sillygoose 11y ago
    > This could affect the business model of Uber dramatically by increasing their costs and liabilities. All those costs are precisely why Uber wanted contractors instead of employees. The real problem is that hiring actual employees is way more costly and risky than hiring contractors.
• djm_ 11y ago
  Out of all those, >Uber alone sets prices is the killer one. I guess the only solution to that would be to make it more of a market where drivers could choose their rate to compete.
  • arebop 11y ago
    We know how to run fast auctions, so this doesn't seem hard to solve. #5 Managerial Skills seems harder to work around.
    • swozey 11y ago
      I'm not sure why. I quit using Taxis as much as possible because of absolutely rude or terrible drivers. Thus they affected my business, and I went to Uber/Lyft. If I had a row of terrible Uber experiences I would quit using Uber.
      • Daishiman 11y ago
        That's already happening as Uber is reducing the compensation of drivers across the board.
        • swozey 11y ago
          Well, for me it started happening when Taxi drivers (the same rude people I was trying to avoid) started becoming Uber drivers as well. Sometimes I'll take an Uber and just be like, Oh, great, this guy is clearly a Taxi driver. I'll probably have to explain where to go, but at least he can't bitch and moan about me paying with a credit card.
  • nemo44x 11y ago
    Exactly. Independent contractors set their own pricing. If Uber would allow the drivers to set their rates and then "hire" who they felt was best for them (and then markup the price to the customer for their own profit) only then would the drivers be in control of payment. This is how every other independent contractor works.
    • viscanti 11y ago
      It's a different situation though. I've never seen any employee ever working for two companies in the same "shift". I see lots of Uber drivers taking Lyft trips. Riders set the rates with demand based pricing and drivers choose which one gives them the best opportunity at each trip request. That's a unique situation, so a comparison to "every other independent contractor" misses the point here.
• panarky 11y ago
  Here's California's guidance to taxi companies on how to classify workers. http://www.edd.ca.gov/pdf_pub_ctr/de231tc.pdf http://www.edd.ca.gov/pdf_pub_ctr/de231tc.pdf [PDF] Cites precedent in Santa Cruz Transportation v. Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board. Here's what's relevant to Uber: 1) Drivers could be terminated if they did not maintain good relations with the public. 2) The company required the drivers to account for the fares they received. 3) The work did not require the expertise of a skilled professional. 4) The drivers depended on the company’s dispatcher for their livelihood. 5) The drivers did not set their own rates, but were paid according to the number and distance of fares they carried. 6) There was no evidence of entrepreneurial risk. 7) The customers called the company and the company arranged for the performance of the services. 8) The drivers did not advertise their services. 9) The driver’s work was part of the regular business of the taxicab company.
• baq 11y ago
  such arguments would also work in some EU countries where Uber is doing business or is about to.
• nulagrithom 11y ago
  Hmm, doesn't seem too far off from the trucking industry (when contractors are employed). I definitely know of at least one company that fits each of the bullet points above.
• shawneric 11y ago
  As an Uber Driver I find that there are a few big problems for us that simply come down to the fact that Uber as a corporation is a selfish and greedy and doesn't really care about the drivers: 1. We're not allowed to receive tips. 2. They take 20% of our commission anyways. 3. Who gets tipped here? Uber does, not me. 4. I use my own car, quite frequently, and unlike a pizza delivery guy, the valuable that I'm transporting is another person's life. 5. If I get into an accident, my insurance screws me. 6. I don't get paid enough.
  • ahallock 11y ago
    > Uber as a corporation is a selfish and greedy And you aren't self-interested or greedy when you find the opportunity? And why do you work for a company that is so terrible? Find a new occupation or work for a competing service.
    • primroot 11y ago
      I look forward to the day when the scientists bless humanity with a photosynthesis gene, so that our autotrophy-powered intellectual capacities can help the Free Market lead us to the next Pareto optimal unencumbered by animal impatience.
  • JonFish85 11y ago
    > "If I get into an accident, my insurance screws me." Well, unless you purchased specific insurance to cover the cost of driving your car for business use of transporting people.
  • makeitsuckless 11y ago
    7. If you get into an accident, you're screwing your passenger(s). Yes, the valuable you're transporting is another person's life, and you're doing it in such a way that circumvent all regulatory safeguards to protect that. Don't make Uber out to be selfish and greedy when you're doing the same.
    • FireBeyond 11y ago
• zaroth 11y ago
  I can see some pretty clear holes in that reasoning. If you spend even a few minutes investigating whether you should actually drive with the Uber app, you realize there's an incredibly complex set of calculations to understand profitability, what kind of car to lease, how much to invest in passenger extras to boost your rating, associated "hidden" costs to factor in, etc. Drivers absolutely choose their tools and invest heavily in those tools which directly impact their profitability and their ratings. Drivers absolutely employ managerial skill in deciding what hours and how many hours to work and what areas to drive in to get the best passengers and best ratings. For example, the last Uber ride I took, the driver explained how they specifically avoid driving during certain time frames and certain locations because the fares are more likely to damage their tools, or leave poor ratings, or start yelling at them randomly. > Uber exercises extensive control over vetting and hiring drivers... For a pretty lose definition of 'extensive'. Nothing compared to a typical job interview and vetting process that a real hire goes through. How many dollars per contractor does Uber spend validating drivers? Probably averages to something like $25 - $50. There's a validation process, certainly, but it's hardly a "vetting" process. > But for Defendant's intellectual property, Plaintiff would not have been able to perform the work This is also absolutely not true. There are a number of different apps which would allow the plaintiff to perform substantially the same work using the same tools and the same business plan. But for using the Uber app, they would not be able to pickup Uber fares, obviously, but that's a tautology. They certainly would be able to perform the same work though. Or they could write their own app and perform the same work (obviously fighting the network effect, they may not succeed, but it's certainly possible). The fact is that plaintiff can drop Uber on Monday and be driving for Lyft on Tuesday, or even drive for both concurrently and arbitrage between the two apps. Personally I think this ruling goes too far, but it is a close call and it will be very interesting to watch this develop. The chicken farmer analogy is a good one. If Uber drivers are employees, it actually breaks a fairly large number of well established business models. I think this has more to do with push-back against Uber specifically than technical compliance with the law.
  • therobot24 11y ago
    > The fact is that plaintiff can drop Uber on Monday and be driving for Lyft on Tuesday, or even drive for both concurrently and arbitrage between the two apps. I keep seeing this, why do you believe that because people are using more than one app it makes it impossible for them to be employees? Why can't someone work more than one job and be considered an employee of both?
• KingMachiavelli 11y ago
  Could this ruling be used to argue that the farmers in poultry raising contracts with Tyson, Poultry House, etc to raise chickens owned by Tyson are also employees? 1) Chicken farmers own and provide equipment that (2) the parent company requires and has set standards. 3) The contractee chooses farmers based on some criteria(not certain, but I would assume it's fairly extensive). 4) Contractee sets prices; the farmers do compete with each other for the best pay based on quality, but the farmers do not set prices. Chicken quality could be seen as equivalent to Uber's pay based on hours/distance driven. 5)Chicken farmers do possess skills that influence Tyson's profit or loss, so this point differs. 6)I'm very much doubt that the farmers can subcontract. 7) The chicken farmers are vital to the contractee's business; the profit of Tyson and other companies that use poultry contracts depends primarily on the supply and quality of the chickens raised by the contracted farmers. Overall, Uber drivers and contracted chicken farmers seem fairly similar though the chicken farmers may conform slightly more to the traditional contractor role.
  • testingonprod 11y ago
    That's a very very interesting argument to be made.
  • mattmanser 11y ago
    The farmers can subcontract, they can hire extra hands and don't have to do the work themselves.
    • buyx 11y ago
      In South Africa, that seems to be exactly the case, at least for most of the rides I've taken on Uber. The vehicle owners are not the same as the drivers (most of the Uber drivers here wouldn't be able to afford their own vehicles). Uber invoices are issued on behalf of third parties that employ the drivers and own the cars (drivers are still rated directly as individuals on the Uber app). This seems an extension of the existing South African minibus taxi industry model, where drivers make a daily quota for taxi owners, then keep the rest. (It has also led to at least one early-afternoon Uber ride with a very sleepy driver who was up from before dawn making his quota for his owner). In any case, in South Africa, at least, Uber is clearly acting as a facilitator, rather than a direct employer. I think it would be a pity if rulings like the one in OP lead to the worldwide emergence of capital-rich fleet owners taking on the role of employers, because Uber became hesitant to deal with individual driver/owners for fear of being designated as their employer.
• deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  • brianwawok 11y ago
    I mean, the roofer is likely a employee of a roofing company. You pay 1 check to the roofing company, and they do payroll for the roofers. Not many people hire 10 roofers 1 by 1. Coder is a better question. I think the argument is that they have a lot more freedom in what they do... i.e. pick their own libraries etc.
    • adevine 11y ago
      Google "Vizcaino v. Microsoft". Whether or not a coder is a contractor or an employee depends very much on the level of control they have over how, when and where they do the work.
  • JonFish85 11y ago
    > I will say my only understanding of 1099 vs employee has always been "Does the worker have a set schedule" If the answer was yes, they are a employee- If no, a contractor. Fast food workers, retail workers and such? They're hourly employees, but employees nonetheless.
    • CardenB 11y ago
      But the schedule is forced by their employer. They don't start and stop working whenever they feel like it.
    • jacalata 11y ago
      Or - many programmers and white collar jobs? I can work flexible hours, but I'm still an employee
• stcredzero 11y ago
  So the major factors that let many taxi companies maintain that drivers are contractors are subcontracting and tipping?
• smohnot 11y ago
  Sidecar has a different approach to #2,#4, and #5... wonder if that will work in their favor on this ruling #2: They just aren't as strict as Uber (can't remember specifics now but my friends 2003 Volvo qualified for Sidecar but not for Uber #4: Sidecar has a marketplace component where drivers bid for jobs #5: It is managerial to choose how to price a job
• pbreit 11y ago
  Uber's take: http://newsroom.uber.com/2015/06/clcstatement/ http://newsroom.uber.com/2015/06/clcstatement/ I think the "ruling" is pretty silly. The Uber model is reasonable. Maybe some tweaks are needed but from a high level it's a legitimate approach.
• leelin 11y ago
  Fascinating! RentHop operates in an industry where almost everyone is an independent contractor on 1099: real estate agents. 1.) Agents are mandated to use their company logo and brokerage info in all ads, both by NYC law and by the company. Some companies have strict dress code requirements when meeting clients. 2.) The brokerage firm definitely controls the tools used, from internal databases to marketing syndication tools to in-house CRM systems. 3.) The brokerage firm has vicarious liability over the actions of their agents (also mandated by NYC law). For that reason the brokerage firm has a huge incentive to vet their employees. 4.) Agents generally have very little discretion if any on the commission charged. The brokerage firm sets commission policies and any deviations must be approved by the managing broker or associate broker. 5.) I highly disagree with the court ruling here [edit: administrative ruling?]; my understanding is Uber drivers are free to turn off the Uber app and operate without the source of leads generated, and that certainly impacts PNL (if that's not the case, agents still can't simply ignore leads forever without getting fired). Uber doesn't mandate when or where the work is done. Same with agents, the brokerages generally can't impact when or where the work is done, with the exception of some mandatory company wide meetings. Firms tend to provide desk space and equipment. 6.) An agent hired by a brokerage firm may not "subcontract" by having a friend show up in his place and conduct the work, even if the friend is a licensed real estate agent -- the brokerage, assuming vicarious liability for the actions of all their agents, would not allow it. This is different from an overworked agent asking a colleague to take over clients, both are still agents of the brokerage.
  • dragonwriter 11y ago
    A mandate imposed on contract relations by law (even if echoed by company policy) is often different in considering the employee/contractor distinction than what not imposed by law. Additionally, New York law is not California law, and 1099 vs W-2 distinction is a federal tax law distinction, which is distinct from California, New York, or even federal labor law employee/contractor distinctions (though some of the factors that are relevant may be similar between those different sources of law.) > I highly disagree with the court ruling here There is no court ruling, its an administrative ruling that is being appealed to a court.
  • deleted 11y ago
• pbreit 11y ago
  It's not a "court". It's a non-binding opinion from one state's pro-employee commission in one person's situation. It's very close to meaningless.