14 ms·
Researchers Find Missing Link Between the Brain and Immune System
- summerdown2 11y agoThe paper can be found in Nature here: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14432.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu...
- fixermark 11y agoI'm not a doctor or neuroscientist, but this strikes me as a significant find if I'm understanding it correctly, right? "We were pretty sure the lymphatic system doesn't directly connect to the brain. Well we were wrong, (points) there it is."
- summerdown2 11y agoI'm not a doctor or neuroscientist either, but from what I gather it is indeed significant. It potentially makes the link between the brain and the body chemically study-able. Up to now there's always been the assumption of a brain/blood barrier stopping much of the chemical transfers. Now it appears there's a mechanism that might bypass that. Again, this is just what I gather from reading. I have no special expertise.
- timr 11y agoBlood is not the same as lymph. This is a lymphatic drainage vessel, not a blood vessel. Think of the lymphatic system as a kind of a superhighway for your immune system. It doesn't carry blood.
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- timr 11y agoWe've known that there had to be a brain/immune connection of some sort. We didn't know that there was a tube. Remember that most of the interesting stuff in biology is invisible to the naked eye. Also, despite a few hundred years of poking around in corpses, we're still pretty crude in terms of what we can see and understand anatomically. The assumption that we have this stuff "mostly figured out" strikes me more as wishful thinking than fact. It's interesting to find a new tube lurking around, but then, it sounds like a pretty small tube. Animals are messy on the inside. Also, dark.
- skmurphy 11y agoWe now know there is at least one tube, and perhaps much much more. In terms of mostly figured out I think we are still below 1% of what we may know in 2100 about the body. Michael Murphy wrote a very interesting book "The History of the Body" in 1993 http://www.amazon.com/The-Future-Body-Explorations-Evolution/dp/0874777305 http://www.amazon.com/The-Future-Body-Explorations-Evolution... curating a number of observations on the potential extent of our capabilities.
- shostack 11y agoLoved this comment as you did a great job of distilling the level of wonder that still remains to be discovered. While I'm not in any way qualified to assess this, it seems the fact that there's essentially a new piece of human anatomy that we've discovered is game changing. Potentially on the level of things that cause entire fields of medicine to re-evaluate what they thought they knew. I wonder what this means for other things we've taken for granted about neurochemistry. Any qualified individuals care to speculate on the possibilities?
- marincounty 11y agoI wonder if I will be alive if they ever figure out how the Placebo Effect works? With discoveries like this--maybe? I always used the Placebo Effect as the existence of a God. I will probally be proved wrong by science, if God decides to give me a few years? (Yes, I have faith. I am probably delusional? It helps me get through the day. I don't want to offend atheists? So, please don't hammer me.)
- moey 11y agoHow come having faith makes one 'probably delusional? How is having faith offending atheists? I find your comment offending.
- collyw 11y agoI am not a believer, but until science comes up with a better explanation of where the universe came from, I am not going to bash anyone else's religion. (The creationist part is pretty suspect to me though).
- gwern 11y agoIf you really cared about the placebo effect, you would be reading papers on it and its mechanism. The placebo effect is not that mysterious: many instances can be traced to specifics like confirmation bias, genetics (particularly COMT variants), regression to the mean, etc.
- anigbrowl 11y agoI'm not offended, just confused about what you are trying to say.
- roywiggins 11y agoThere's no particular reason to believe that the placebo effect is nonphysical other than the fact that we don't know exactly how it works. Lots of things fall into that category. You can ascribe God to dark matter and placebo effects, but you just have a God of the Gaps.
- dzhiurgis 11y ago
- aurora72 11y agoAccording to Loren Cordain, autoimmune diseases such as MS are triggered by eating certain kinds of food such as legume and milk.
- mkagenius 11y agoDiscoveries like these scares me sometimes that how little we know about our body and nature.
- iyn 11y agoI totally understand the feeling, but on the other hand, it's incredible that there is so much to explore, so many new things to learn, see and experience. Yes, everything around seems to be pretty complex, at least considering our current abilities [0], but I believe that we can choose how we look at the world/problems - pragmatic optimism may help with feeling overwhelmed :). [0] Sometimes I think that the perceived complexity of the universe says more about the mind than the universe itself.
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- learnstats2 11y ago> It never occurred to anyone to inject a radioactive tracer... I'm going to post the relevent xkcd comic, although I fear you failed to meet this standard: https://www.xkcd.com/793/ https://www.xkcd.com/793/
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- nanofortnight 11y agoLymphatic tracing is generally more often done with dyes in the case of removal of sentinal nodes due to e.g. cancers. However, there been work in injecting radioimmunoagent tracers into lymphatics especially in the case of melanomas. The likely reason why these haven't before detected these meningeal lymphatic vessels is likely because: (1) We don't bother imaging the brain because "the brain doesn't have lymphatics" and (2) tracers generally flow with the direction of fluid and the direction of lympth from the CNS is likely efferent rather than afferent. Furthermore it is difficult these days to do such experiments especially on live subjects "just because". Hindsight is 20/20.
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- nanofortnight 11y agoIndeed! Though mouse anatomy doesn't entirely transfer over to human anatomy. I interpreted your comment to refer to experimentation in humans, I apologise if I misunderstood. You seem to be surprised that our current knowledge of basic human anatomy is not yet exhaustive. Two recent notable discoveries are: * Anterolateral ligament (Ligament of the knee, discovered 2013 after macroscopic examination of cadavers) * Dua's layer (Newly discovered layer of the cornea, discovered in 2013 using electron microscopy) You may also be surprised about the amount of variation in anatomy found between people. Some structures (commonly muscles) do not exist in some people, or may exist on only one side of the body. Similarly vessels and nerves can sometimes also take alternative or strange courses. This has clinical implications, especially wrt surgery.
- pcrh 11y agoAwesome finding, I hope it is confirmed soon. Many neurodegenerative diseases are known to involve an immune component, but how that might occur has been a mystery. It has very significant implications for diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, Lou Gehrig's disease (aka Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, ALS), multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, etc.
- senorito 11y agoWell ... it's great that finally the physiological structures of this connection are unveiled, but it's been known for a long time that you can measurably positively affect your immune system by means of meditation which is a mental process.
- BadCookie 11y agoCould this finding explain why I (and many other people) get migraine headaches as part of an allergic response to certain foods?
- MrBunny 11y agoSo I have MS. I go to any link that has to do with the Immune system. Recently I see tons of "discoveries" and attempts to link it to MS. Which gets me excited but than I start to think how much of this is truth and how much is bullshit? Or that MS and others like it are so complex that all of the findings are true... Either way starting to have a hard time finding hope in any of these articles.
- swsieber 11y agoI think we are just beginning to scratch the surface of the link between our immune systems and things like MS. I think the fact that we have so much coming to light bodes well. I do think much of it is overstated; but that there is so much activity makes me think we'll start seeing real progress. In case you didn't see it earlier (a week or two ago, perhaps in a comment somewhere?) http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/january2015/01122015reset.htm http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/january2015/01122015reset... Apparently reseting the immune system can halt MS to a certain degree. And that's what I think our real progress will be: by degrees, because those things are complex.
- BadCookie 11y agoI risk getting downvoted for this, but have you tried any dietary changes? There are cases of people with MS who have seen tremendous improvement on a low histamine or paleo style diet. There are no guarantees, of course, but what do you have to lose? I would think it would be worth the inconvenience of trying it out for a few months even if the odds of success are very small. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
- MrBunny 11y agoI actually have changed my diet and take drugs that help prevent more events. Additionally its really hard to track the progression since you can have an event (damage) without actually knowing (mild issues). However the damage is there and IMO is what produce the most day to day trouble. Tricking your brain into thinking your feet are on fire or your arm is weak weird shit like that. When I finally got MRI they found 7+ lesions in the brain and spine. For me to be honest most days I'm ok but it really sucks take these crazy expensive drugs every day. It's a very expensive disease that produces lasting damage even if a cure is to found. Sorry don't mean to rant.
- pmelendez 11y ago> "treatment of neurological diseases ranging from autism to Alzheimer’s" It upsets me that the author keep referring autism as a disease. A high functioning autistic would be very offended if you say that their way of thinking is a disease. Note to the downvoters: A developmental range of disorders is not a disease. If you don't agree you are invited to comment.
- proksoup 11y agoThat is true, offense does come easy. Ableism and this article comes to mind http://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html http://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avo... (that their* way of thinking)
- pmelendez 11y agoThanks! I just fixed the typo. The article looks very interesting too.
- what-no-tests 11y agoTIL "DoucheCanoe"
- snowwrestler 11y ago"Disease" is commonly used as a catch-all word for any malfunctioning of the body, including of the brain. For example if you click the medical definition (3rd bullet) on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorder It jumps you to an anchor on the Disease page. So: even if it offends you, it is not incorrect usage. I did not downvote you.
- pmelendez 11y agoWhen you visit the link you would see: >"The term disorder is often considered more value-neutral and less stigmatizing than the terms disease or illness, and therefore is a preferred terminology in some circumstances" Also, regarding mental disorders the link says: "In mental health, the term mental disorder is used as a way of acknowledging the complex interaction of biological, social, and psychological factors in psychiatric conditions." And the wikipedia entry even touch the point I was referring to: "On the other hand, by emphasizing the medical nature of the condition, this term (disease) is sometimes rejected, such as by proponents of the autism rights movement." Finally the link starts the section with this phrase: "In many cases, terms such as disease, disorder, morbidity and illness are used interchangeably.[3] ##There are situations however when specific terms are considered preferable.##" (emphasis is mine)
- polskibus 11y agoI wonder if this breakthrough will allow development of better atopy treatments. Allergic rhinitis can be a real pain in the ass.
- foxhedgehog 11y agoI've been telling doctors for years that there seems to be some connection between my digestive issues and my sinus trouble.
- sharjeel 11y agoThanks to the HN comments which assured that it is important. Otherwise after reading the first sentence and processing it with standard sensational filtering regex of my brain, I wouldn't have proceeded forward. "In a [stunning|amazing] discovery that overturns [years|decades|centuries] of [textbook teaching|beliefs|research] [researchers|scientists] at the <XYZ Lab> have discovered that the <PQR premise> holds false."
- degenerate 11y agoHaha, I never thought of what a regex match would look like for headlines, that's pretty damn hilarious :)
- seanp2k2 11y agoI'd think you'd have better luck using bayes with some clever stemming / tokenization :)
- WalterSear 11y ago"Medical scientists hate it!"
- Mahn 11y agoPointless weekend project idea: A service that scans articles for matching regexes to classify the level of bullshit of what you are reading. It could even be a browser extension with the bullshit indicator automatically shown for each page in its icon.
- BurningFrog 11y agoNeural network!
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- slowmovintarget 11y agohttp://www.blablameter.com/index.php http://www.blablameter.com/index.php (Article has an index of 0.14 -- not BS)
- anigbrowl 11y agotl;dr lymphatic nodes go all the way up the back of your brain and into your sinuses. We'd been ripping them out and throwing them away every time we did autopsies or dissections because they were attached to the inside of the skull. Oops.
- refurb 11y agothe back of your brain and into your sinuses Dural sinuses, not nasal sinuses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dural_venous_sinuses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dural_venous_sinuses
- spyder 11y agoBut how they didn't notice in with MRI or CT scans? Is it because their resolution isn't high enough yet for that?
- kazinator 11y ago> every time we did autopsies or dissections It follows that we also rip them out when we open the skull to perform surgeries! Quite possibly, they don't grow back. I hypothesize that some brain injuries due to impact could tear them too.
- ENGNR 11y agoConnection between autism and immune system potentially found, further study needed to determine the specifics. The anti-vaxers are going to have a field day with all this gray area to sow misinformation into.
- yuhong 11y agoI am thinking this may be the reason vaccines appeared to cause autism. Of course, this is not a reason not to vaccinate, but the point of vaccines is to invoke the immune system.
- kazinator 11y agoGiven the previous belief that there are no lymph vessels connecting to the brain, what was the hypothesis for how lymphoma can spread to the brain?
- ChristianMarks 11y agoSelf-promotion is suspect in this highly competitive, and not infrequently nasty field. It was known that there was some transport mechanism--now there are details. But I would caution some skepticism, especially when the discoverer trumpets the extraordinary significance of the discovery.
- ejstronge 11y ago>Self-promotion is suspect in this highly competitive, and not infrequently nasty field. I'm not sure who's self-promoting; this is a news article about a big discovery. > But I would caution some skepticism, especially when the discoverer trumpets the extraordinary significance of the discovery. The linked article is from a news organization. Further, the data for the article are published in a high-profile journal; these are fairly credible findings.
- ChristianMarks 11y agoIf you are not sure, then read the article and keep track of what the researchers say. This will increase your degree of sureness.
- ChristianMarks 11y agoDownvoters can take a warm piss on a power line. The researchers are quoted asserting the profound significance of their discovery. This is reason to be skeptical, given the field has a reputation for Nobel prize winners rushing to publish work they hear about from less well known researchers, and then claiming the less known researcher stole their ideas from them.
- nunodonato 11y agoscience is catching up with yoga... good to know :P
- austinjp 11y agoWhile is very interesting, from what I can see the research was done in mice not humans. The diagram of the "new" human lymphatic system is in the press release not the research paper. I do recognise the value of animal models in research, and this is intriguing, but with tempering with a little caution.
- nate_meurer 11y agoHow they discovered it: > The vessels were detected after Louveau developed a method to mount a mouse’s meninges – the membranes covering the brain – on a single slide so that they could be examined as a whole. “It was fairly easy, actually,” he said. “There was one trick: We fixed the meninges within the skullcap, so that the tissue is secured in its physiological condition, and then we dissected it." Can someone explain what it means to fix the meninges to the skullcap? Do they mean they attached it to the skull bone? How then do they mount a curved bone to a slide?
- richardbrevig 11y agoIf I had to venture a guess: They're referring to fixation [0], or preservation of the tissue, and not to affixation, the attachment of something. So, basically, they fixed the tissue prior to removing it from the skull, causing it to keep form. Whereas, if they removed the tissue from the skull and then chemically fixed it, the tissue would have already lost form and the lymph would be undetectable (no longer be in original form). Think about a cake in a pan. Baking = fixing. Remove the cake before "fixing" it, and it's a plot of mess. "Fix" it first, and you have a free-standing cake, it'll hold shape. Bad analogy, sorry. :) [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(histology) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(histology) Edit: forgot reference.
- nate_meurer 11y agoThank you! That makes sense of the wording; they fixed the tissue within the skullcap, not to it.