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Dear AirBNB, No Thank You for the XXX Freak Fest
- makeitsuckless 11y agoPeople who rent out apartments they don't own fully deserve to get blacklisted. The author dares to call it "my apartment", but you don't get evicted from your own apartment. He is the one who abused someone else's property in the first place. Edit: I truly don't understand all the downvotes. Here's someone who illegally exploits someone else's apartment for profit, and clearly feels no responsibility for his role in the whole affair. What is so abnormal about the fact that no one wants to rent to this person anymore? If I borrow your car, rent it to someone I don't know who then proceeds to crash it, would you then consider met the victim or the a-hole who abused your trust to make fast buck and got your car totalled?
- omegaworks 11y agoConfusing abusing someone else with abusing someone else's property is the reason for so much pain and evil in this world. Thanks for propagating the mythos.
- dragontamer 11y agoUnfortunately, there's a reason why subletting for less than 30 days is _illegal_ in New York City. Because you attract a crowd of people who like to do Sex Orgies in stranger's houses. At the end of the day, it was a mistake for the author to use AirBNB, and now he is paying the price.
- omegaworks 11y agoThere are plenty of people that need short-term housing that don't also think that a surprise sex orgy is an appropriate thing to do in a stranger's home. Why should regular people not be able to rent out the space they don't need to regular people that need it? The people who thought it was appropriate to trash the place should be made to cover the damage they wrought to the OP's life. That is the fairest solution.
- dragontamer 11y ago> Why should regular people not be able to rent out the space they don't need to regular people that need it? Because he doesn't own the property. I severely doubt that his landlord is letting him sublet his apartment for less than 30 days. Why not? It doesn't matter. If you don't _own_ the land, you don't make the rules. Hell, even in my townhome that I own, my HOA / local laws do not allow me to sublet due to zoning restrictions. If I didn't agree to the law, I could have bought a different house. But I like the location, so I agreed to it. (I don't really care for AirBNB or subletting anyway). But these are the sorts of things you need to take responsibility for if you want to be a functioning adult.
- omegaworks 11y agoPhilosophically, why should ownership imply total absolute control?
- dragontamer 11y agoPhilosophically, why does philosophy matter? If you're gonna waste my time, I'm not gonna bother with a serious response.
- dragonwriter 11y agoThat's what ownership means. A renter had exactly the rights to property mandated in law or contacted in the rental agreement. That's what they paid for and the owner aged to transfer. If they wanted the right to use AirBnB or similar services to sublet the apartment, without consequences from bad subtenants, they should have contacted for that. The property owner, had they been willing to provide such rights, would probably have charged substantially higher rent -- out required larger damage deposit or insurance purchase by the tenant -- to do so.
- omegaworks 11y agoDoes it really provide net good in the world that your HOA is preventing you from negotiating an agreement with another person that could live in that space?
- rosser 11y agoI'm pretty sure "people who like to do Sex Orgies in stranger's houses" wasn't on anyone's mind when New York made short-term subletting illegal.
- dragontamer 11y agoThey probably weren't thinking "sex orgies", but they probably were thinking "illegal prostitution". There's a reason why zoning laws exist. In particular, hotels and other temporary arrangements attract drug deals, prostitution, and other unsavory characters. I can guarantee you that "illegal prostitution" was on the mind of city planners when they zoned out the place. Maybe not quite "sex orgies", but it'd be within the neighborhood (oh I'm so punny...)
- makeitsuckless 11y agoWhat on earth are you on about?
- jeffdavis 11y agoAbsolutely correct, but there is also room for criticism of AirBnb. The business model is largely based on that kind of recklessness with other people's property.
- cloudsloth 11y agoIt seems like the issue here should be that rentals/hotels are discriminating based on whether someone operates as an AirBnB host or not. Other renter's who do the same without such a notable 'incident' are the same level of risk. It is quite unfair I believe that this person is unable to find a rental. Rental agencies should figure out their stance and make it clear and unilateral.
- marcoperaza 11y agoHe broke the terms of his lease so he could make hundreds of dollars a night. Rental agencies aren't in the business of leasing to people with a record of violating lease agreements.
- ivv 11y agoThe guy has reportedly received $23k from Airbnb following the orgy, sued his condo for its super's disparaging comments, a doctor for misdiagnosing him, and is sued by some other guy for defamation in an unrelated issue.
- beedogs 11y ago...and? It seems as though he's in the right, and that AirBNB is still screwing him over, so why mention those things?
- dragontamer 11y agoHow is AirBNB screwing him over? The AirBnB Tenant screwed him over. Why would AirBnB have any responsibility over the tenants?
- myhf 11y agoGood point, there's no reason a business should be responsible for the liabilities it incurs.
- dragontamer 11y agoA gunsmith is not responsible for the people who are shot by his gun. Because there's a person in between there. The one at fault is the murderer: the man holding the gun. NOT the gunsmith. Similarly, AirBNB is not responsible for the tenant's misbehavior. What am I missing here?
- IvyMike 11y ago> Why would AirBnB have any responsibility over the tenants? They may not have any legal responsibility. But consider the message sent to potential renters. Does AirBnB really want this horror story out there, scaring away customers?
- tsotha 11y ago
- omegaworks 11y agoHe should just find an AirBNB :D ...oh wait
- princeb 11y agothis is tongue in cheek but given that airbnb does not concern itself with the NYC tenant blacklists this might be one of few viable options for this guy.
- chkuendig 11y agoBackground/original post: http://dearairbnb.tumblr.com/post/79657042387/dear-airbnb-no-thank-you-for-the-xxx-freak-fest http://dearairbnb.tumblr.com/post/79657042387/dear-airbnb-no...
- Dramatize 11y agoThis doesn't seem legitimate. Not sure why, but it seems fake.
- divideby0 11y agoThe freak fest thing is true: http://gawker.com/man-unwittingly-rents-out-apartment-on-airbnb-for-xxx-1544961941 http://gawker.com/man-unwittingly-rents-out-apartment-on-air... Whether or not this is the same person or an imposter? Who knows. But it wouldn't be surprising. If true, it's entirely possible that Airbnb is more concerned about setting a precedent for any and all auxiliary damages that go along with a bad stay. What happens when someone gets kicked out of their apartment because a guest accidentally tipped off management that they were an Airbnb renter?
- toomuchtodo 11y agoYou should be kicked out of your apartment if you put your apartment on AirBnB in violation of your lease. "Breech of contract" and all that jazz.
- pfisch 11y agoI remember reading a past article about this when it happened with a lot of evidence. Pretty sure it is real.
- mschuster91 11y agoIt is legit and it was on HN when it happened. I'm on mobile though so I can't really search for the first submission.
- thekevan 11y agoHe acts as if he had no part in signing up to be an AirBNB user and just came home from work one days to find his apartment trashed by the freak fest.
- ivraatiems 11y agoHe was lied to by the "pre-verified" guest AirBNB directed to him.
- mszyndel 11y agoPlease please tell me how to get anyone "directed to" me via airbnb... I always thought it's a marketplace where two parties meet and service has no role of "directing". Why is everyone repeating this bullshit Telman wrote!?
- ivraatiems 11y agoBecause in the documentation screenshots he provides it clearly shows that AirBNB "pre-approved," that is, recommended this malicious lying guest.
- recursive 11y agoHe doesn't seem to act like that at all. He's acting like signing up for AirBNB doesn't mean you expect this to happen. He refers to some AirBNB guarantee, although I'm not sure what it says. In any case, I think it's reasonable to assume that signing up for AirBNB won't make you homeless.
- stevecalifornia 11y agoWhat are the arguments for and against AirBNB being responsible for the behavior of the people using AirBNB?
- jlawer 11y agoWell Airbnb claim to cover hosts : https://www.airbnb.com.au/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com.au/guarantee and market themselves as such.
- stevecalifornia 11y agoIt says they cover property damage and doesn't mention other things like eviction.
- Xylakant 11y agoIs eviction not a form of property damage? In the best case a move costs money. In the worst case it's not even possible to find an appartment at comparable prices.
- saryant 11y agoHow is that property damage?
- dragonwriter 11y agoEviction is not damage to "your property", which is what the airbnb guarantee protects. (It is the termination of a subordinate interest in real property by the person whose property it actually is, but that's a different thing altogether. It seems particularly risky to use AirBnB to rent out someone else's property.)
- mod 11y agoNo. There's no property involved.
- mschuster91 11y agoHere's a link to Gawker, first hit for "xxx freak fest" for those doubting the story, including a statement by Airbnb where they promised to help the host: http://gawker.com/man-unwittingly-rents-out-apartment-on-airbnb-for-xxx-1544961941 http://gawker.com/man-unwittingly-rents-out-apartment-on-air...
- onewaystreet 11y agoThis happened a year ago and AirBNB paid him $23,000 for the damages at the time. His new complaint is that he has been blacklisted from renting in NYC.
- underwater 11y agoLeaving that out from the post is pretty misleading. He keeps saying "you need to fix this". What else does he expect them to do?
- _ak 11y agoGet him to get unblacklisted so that he can rent in NYC again, maybe?
- wvenable 11y agoThat's not within their power.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jbigelow76 11y agoGotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. The investors in ABNB will eventually probably raise a toast in memoriam of those caught up in the disruption.
- jahewson 11y agoAirBnB probably don't have standing to file a suit to have him removed. I suppose they could fund him to file a suit against the blacklist agencies - assuming that there's a valid case. Alternatively he could sue ABnB for further damages due to ending up on the blacklist, though he might not be able to do that due to previous settlements, arbitration, etc.
- thaumaturgy 11y agoHe was renting an apartment and he listed it on AirBNB, which was almost certainly a violation of his lease agreement (and poor judgement on his part). The blacklisting, if it exists as he says it does, is entirely his own fault.
- Rainymood 11y agoWhile I agree with the tone of the message, I don't agree with how he tries to spin the ball. The constant repetition of 'You need to fix thix' feels really childish and finger-pointy. Does anyone exactly what AirBnB's legal requirements/jib-jab is on this stuff?
- dragontamer 11y agoAirBnB probably doesn't have any. Now the question is why hasn't he sued the crap out of the tenant who lied to him and decided to have a sex orgy in his apartment?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- frakkingcylons 11y agoHis problem is being on the NYC tenant blacklist, not finances. How does suing the AirBnB guest take him off the blacklist?
- dragontamer 11y agoWell, first of all, he allegedly had $80,000+ in damages, and AirBNB has only paied him $20k. So... at least $60k in financing is missing. I'd say that's a pretty penny. Certainly a non-trivial amount. Further damages to "reputation" can probably be tacked on.
- hvidgaard 11y agoHe probably doesn't have legal ground to stand on. I mean, every single place I've ever rented, write in bold that I cannot, without explicit accept from the owner, rent it to other people. I understand why he was blacklisted, and if his contract is anything like I suspect, it's his own fault. He can buy a place and rent it out instead, but doing it with other peoples property without their concent is asking for trouble.
- 11y ago
- beedogs 11y agoI really won't miss AirBNB when the inevitable blizzard of lawsuits destroys it. What a terrible company.
- dylanjermiah 11y agoWhy will they be sued into oblivion?
- toomuchtodo 11y agoHousing/hoteling ordinance violations, similar to how one by one, local governments are banning Uber from operating in their jurisdiction.
- biturd 11y agoDoes anyone know how he plotted where he slept on a map like that? I am assuming he did not hand enter it into some API maps tool, but rather, an app he has marks his location. I would like an app like this in the event I ever need to prove my location. And I think it would be cool to see where I go on a map.
- mschuster91 11y agoIn case you know a bit of javascript, such a map is trivial to do in Javascript.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoGoogle "github location history". Should be first result.
- minimaxir 11y agoIt appears he manually added each pin to a personal Google Maps map, likely as record of damages for lawsuits.
- Axsuul 11y agoGoogle Latitude used to do this but it has since been shutdown. If you're on Android, check out https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=gaugler.backitude&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=gaugler.backit...
- jen729w 11y ago<snark>Doesn't [Google|Facebook] do that for you already?</snark> But, all joking aside, "For the increasingly few of us who haven't used a Google account on a smartphone (or who currently haven't signed in), what you'd be looking at is your Location History plotted on a map. Unless you've actively taken steps to stop it, Google has been automatically recording of your location every 45 seconds and time stamping each coordinate." [0] [0] http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2015/02/19/4183553.htm http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2015/02/19/4183553...
- IvyMike 11y ago
- viraptor 11y agoI'm not sure why he wants AirBnB to fix the blacklist issue. I mean, sure, the situation sucks for him and he was put there partially because of renting his place via AirBnB. But he can't realistically expect AirBnB to fix this issue. According to this [1]: > The blacklist is actually a database of suits filed by landlords and compiled by tenant screening companies. So it's basically the same as Experian, Equifax, and other credit rating agencies. And it's the same kind of scam in the end. What AirBnB could potentially do is get together with him to figure out how to appeal the entry based on the applicable regulations. But that's not what I'd call them fixing the issue. [1] http://www.npr.org/2014/12/14/367833532/tenant-blacklist-can-haunt-new-york-renters-for-years http://www.npr.org/2014/12/14/367833532/tenant-blacklist-can...
- mschuster91 11y agoThere likely won't be any legal options to get him out of the tracking databases, after all he was responsible for the damages and violated his rental contract. But Airbnb should have e.g. rented a hotel room for him until the situation is resolved, and they didn't do it...
- gyardley 11y agoHe wants AirBnB to fix the blacklist issue because he can no longer rent an apartment after an eviction caused by his AirBnB guests. I'm not sure why you find that hard to understand. It was obvious from the post. Not that I would ever let strangers stay in my place, but I would expect the same thing.
- notdanariely 11y agoHmm, an interesting and different perspective! Thank you for sharing. If I were to consider renting my place on AirBnB, I would consider the people staying here to be my guests, not ABnB's. While I believe there is some concern with how the company represents themselves, the fact remains that it's his apartment he chose to rent out. Illegally, I might add. If you rented a room to someone referred by a friend, and that guest trashed your place... would you expect your friend to make restitution? (Personally, I would downgrade my trust in that friend's opinion, but I don't think I would hold them liable...)
- planetjones 11y agoWas the author sub-letting his apartment on a temporary basis via air bnb? Would that be legal in NYC? Maybe the fact his landlord found out and blacklisted him for illegal sub-letting is the bigger problem...
- MichaelCrawford 11y agoI was once an illegal subletter. The actual tenant moved out, and so notified me that I was being evicted. I protested to the apartment manager, who told me that I could not possibly be subletting, because subletting was contractually forbidden. "That may be true, but even so I was subletting." The tenant left a huge mess when he moved out. I told the manager that I removed everything from the fridge, cleaned it thoroughly then put back in the fridge everything that did not belong to me. I was invited to rent some other apartment in the same complex but oddly was not permitted to stay in the apartment I was subletting. A couple weeks later the tenant called me on the phone to demand compensation for all the cleaning, hauling and dump fees he had to pay. "I had to sell my truck," he said. "I removed everything from the apartment that belonged to me," I replied. "I understand" he said woefully. I never heard from him again. This experience made me a lot wiser about how I search for housing. There were many red flags such as his response to my requirement that my new place be near public transit. "There's a bus stop nearby, I'll pick you up in my truck." "nearby" in truck miles is a lot closer than in walking miles.
- wodenokoto 11y agoIsn't this exactly why you are not allowed to use your private apartment as a hotel?
- marcoperaza 11y agoI don't understand how AirBnB is responsible here. You're obviously taking a risk when you hand over the keys to your apartment to a stranger. This is the same risk that landlords take when they lease the unit in the first place; hence why these blacklists exist: to minimize risk. The difference is that the landlord is at least leasing what is his to lease. Renting your apartment on AirBnB is prohibited by just about every lease, and is flat-out illegal in NYC. He broke the terms of his lease and the law to make hundreds of dollars a night, trusted a stranger that a website connected him with, and got busted. He could try to sue the guy that threw the orgy, just like landlords can try to sue deadbeat tenants; but just like the landlords, he'll probably get nowhere. The law can't protect you from your own poor decision-making. Would you want to rent your property to this guy?
- vacri 11y agoI don't understand how AirBnB is responsible here. ... trusted a stranger that a website connected him with You answered your own question here. It's a bit mystifying why you're giving AirBNB a complete pass here when they were the ones that set up the connection. It's possible for both parties to be at fault.
- stretchwithme 11y agocomplete pass - $23,000.
- michaelchisari 11y agoThis is an issue, though, if AirBNB is encouraging people to break the law, and simply sees the occasional payout as "insurance" when someone gets caught. It reminds me of the recall formula outlined in Fight Club.
- vacri 11y agowhere did marcoperaza even hint at that?
- marcoperaza 11y ago
- pistle 11y agoHe obviously made a bad decision to rent out his apartment. This isn't AirBnb's problem. Look through my previous comments. I'm no fan of AB or most of the sharing economy's big players, but this is the sort of thing that will continue to happen and why basing a business model on the backs of people's bad risk evaluations is tenuous. These models won't hold up without the downside being felt directly by the app providers. But, then where's the fun/money?
- xcyu 11y agoWell at least he did a great job making the most out of this incident. http://www.inc.com/will-yakowicz/how-to-make-the-most-out-of-an-orgy.html http://www.inc.com/will-yakowicz/how-to-make-the-most-out-of...
- soroso 11y agoSorry for my lack of knowledge. What is it "XXX Freak Fest"?
- thewhizkid 11y agoAs the occasional host in SF, I do get extremely paranoid about guests, and only accept requests from guests who have had an account for more than a year, who have 100% positive reviews, and has at least 2 reviews in the last 6 months. Obviously I reject a lot of requests. Even then I did have one unfortunate incident involving a guest bringing home another guest that stole something even though I explicitly said "no guests." My perspective from the host POV is that you really have to do your own vetting of guests beyond anything AirBnB will provide. AirBnB provides barebones proof of ID, but that's it. Ultimately, I find AirBnB's business to be 100x "crazier" than other "sharing" companies like, say, Uber. At least with Uber there is a more regimented process for vetting and onboarding drivers. With AirBnB it is still a free-for-all on both sides. At the end of the day, you're letting a total stranger into your house. Where you sleep and have all your things. It's a risk and everyone who uses AirBnB should be aware of it.
- gyardley 11y agoAirBnB could easily prevent such issues by explicitly requiring people to confirm they're not subject to a lease that prohibits short-term rentals and therefore not at risk of eviction -- before they can list a property for rent. No doubt they'll get right on that. Kidding aside, not making people aware of these risks and trumpeting a '$1,000,000 Guarantee' (that only happens to cover property damage) just creates an illusion of risklessness -- one that takes advantage of the greedy and stupid. Normally when a company takes advantage of the greedy and stupid, most of HN pitches a fit. What's different this time?
- marcoperaza 11y agoThis guy had a duty to his landlord to abide by his lease. The fact that AirBnB helped him violate his lease does not give him any cause of action. That would be like suing The Pirate Bay because the MPAA sued you for downloading movies through them. The landlord could perhaps sue AirBnB for tortious interference, but they probably don't care enough to go through the trouble.
- Dylan16807 11y ago> '$1,000,000 Guarantee' (that only happens to cover property damage) Well is there a problem with that? What would you do with the guarantee to improve things? Even if they gave him some extra money as an apology it wouldn't help his being blacklisted.
- u04f061 11y agoMy sympathies for him. AirBNB should help him to get out of this blacklist.
- aheilbut 11y agoThe poor guy seems to have a remarkable knack for accidentally stumbling into all kinds of drama. http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-tale-of-nextgen-and-nextgen/ http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-tal...
- issa 11y agoI feel like the real problem here is the same problem that exists in all of these situations where the law hasn't caught up to technology: someone is being made an example of. When a few people pay a huge price for something that "everyone" is doing, it is simply unfair. The people who have been sued for downloading music are a similar example. In my opinion, AirBNB should fix this situation because they can. It isn't fair for one renter to bear the brunt of the pushback while the company continues to make huge profit. It isn't about blame, it's about each side's ability to right what is an unfair situation.
- jmcgough 11y agoAnyone who googles him (or does a background check) will see a ton of red flags, including being involved in several lawsuits over the last few years. I'm not shocked no one will let him rent a place - I sure wouldn't. http://nypost.com/2014/11/11/embattled-manhattan-doc-faces-accusation-of-quackery/ http://nypost.com/2014/11/11/embattled-manhattan-doc-faces-a... http://nypost.com/2014/03/28/comedian-outs-pr-execs-affair-as-payback-for-bad-real-estate-deal-lawsuit/ http://nypost.com/2014/03/28/comedian-outs-pr-execs-affair-a... http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-tale-of-nextgen-and-nextgen/ http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-tal... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/airbnb-orgy-victim-sues-nyc-condo-super-comments-article-1.1957128 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/airbnb-orgy-victim-sues-...
- 6t6t6 11y agoWhat I cannot really understand in the first place is why it is legal for the companies in the US to make (Black-)Lists of citizens. Isn't it any law that regulates that?
- tiatia 11y agoWell, he could rent a place through AirBnB...
- zeeed 11y agoWhy is there such a shitstorm going on here? Here's a guy who is now living on the street and, for all that is known, has his private life shaken up. I for my part can understand that he would like to have at least his reputation restored, i.e. be taken off the blacklist.
- stretchwithme 11y agoOne should always weigh the most one could profit against the most one could be harmed. Don't do it unless that loss is not very likely and one can be tolerate it or buy insurance for it. This fellow's loss of reputation was one of those harms and you can't buy insurance for that. AirBnB didn't even know the terms of the lease he signed so why should they fix the consequences of violating it?
- eropple 11y agoAirBNB does know that it's illegal in the overwhelming majority of NYC apartments (like, 99+%) to short-term lease. And yet they keep operating uncritically in NYC. Almost like they don't care about the illegalities they participate in. Strange.
- benchoud 11y agoWhat is the xhamster link to URL of the video?