5 ms·

I agree. Have you noticed a change in the air since the referendum? It seems to me that people are pretty sour about the outcome, it's the second time in a row

by s_kilk 11y ago

I agree. Have you noticed a change in the air since the referendum? It seems to me that people are pretty sour about the outcome, it's the second time in a row that Scotland has voted almost unanimously against the Tories and still ended up with a Tory government. I'm seeing even staunch anti-independence voters start to reconsider their positions.

arethuza 11y ago
My own view was that I was fairly happy with the status quo after the referendum and before the general election - but it turned out that keeping that wasn't an option. The rUK has swung decisively to the right (e.g. UKIP 12%), the Conservatives have a majority on their own without the moderating influence of the Lib Dems - which is fine as we are a democracy but the people of Scotland clearly have wildly different views (SNP 50%, UKIP 1.6%). Then of course there is the prospect of BoJo as PM - which I think would pretty much guarantee a rapid dissolution of the UK.
- s_kilk 11y ago
  Agreed on all counts. For those who don't know what we're talking about: this map of the recent UK election results should illustrate the huge divide between Scotland and England: https://flipchartfairytales.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/screen-shot-2015-05-11-at-10-03-33.png https://flipchartfairytales.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/scre... They are two very different cultures.
  - gsnedders 11y ago
    I don't think that's really fair — that makes it look like Scotland almost unanimously voted SNP, which they didn't. While yes, the SNP got 50% of the vote, that's far from the 94% of constituencies they won. Similarly, it also overstates the Tories' success in England — actually only 41% of the vote. (And it doesn't look like Labour has anywhere near the same number of seats that the Tories do, even though they're only a hundred off, out of 650.) Being disenfranchised with Westminster is far from a Scottish phenomenon: the SNP's success one can easily argue comes in significant part from the fact they've managed to position themselves as a viable winner in a large number of constituencies, not least through leading the Scottish Government since 2007, as a large proportion of voters end up voting for one of the two largest parties in their constituency given a single-winner system. Convincing the electorate a vote for your minor party isn't a wasted vote is a major part of the challenge of making a small party a real challenge in a large number of constituencies.
  - IshKebab 11y ago
    That's a very misleading image. Here's a better one: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03297/2010-vs-2015_3297055a.gif http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03297/2010-vs-20...
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    That image is a screencap from the BBC website AFAICT, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/scotland http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/scotland - 50% of voters in Scotland voted SNP. >They are two very different cultures. // You might be able to show that but not with these election results - is Edinburgh a different culture to the rest of Scotland (well it is, but not any more than Glasgow is different to Aberdeen), is Orkney & Shetland a different culture (same thing applies)? Bradford and Bridlington [2 conurbations in the region of Yorkshire in the UK] are probably more culturally diverse than most random pairs of Scottish and rUK places.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >but the people of Scotland clearly have wildly different views // Really? Having lived in Scotland, Wales and England this doesn't seem to be true. The swing to the right I think is in part due to apparent immigration pressures and in part [much more speculatively] a selfish response to poverty (someone has to be poor make sure it's someone else and not me). Scotland doesn't have the same immigration issues as other parts of the UK as far as I can tell in this [1] map you can see the areas with major cities are clearly home to more migrants - Glasgow, Edinburgh and I'm guessing that's Dundee and Perth and Aberdeen [which might be skewed by oil workers?]. Same in England and Wales except that some areas have seen a huge increase in migrant populations [2] indeed in 2012 the migrant population in Scotland was ~7% vs ~13% in the rest of the UK [3]. [Note I'm trusting the stats here, please provide corrections if they seem wrong.] Personally I don't think that Scotland will react more gracefully with similar immigration patterns. Indeed if Scotland secedes from the UK and is successful in gaining entry to the EU then they will be outside the Schengen Area [4, it's been agreed that all new applicants will be accepted as outside the Schengen Area]. That would mean Scotland would likely get a big increase in immigrants too and I suspect the response would be similar. >Then of course there is the prospect of BoJo as PM - which I think would pretty much guarantee a rapid dissolution of the UK. // So there's not much difference between BoJo and SNP then? /s - - - [1] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/immigration-map-britain-foreign-migrants-4669250 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/immigration-map-britain-... [2] http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/maps/census-map-non-uk-born-population-increase-2001-v-2011-england-and-wales http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/... [3] http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/global-international-migrant-stock-scotland-international-comparison http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/global-in... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
  - arethuza 11y ago
    "this doesn't seem to be true" So why have 50% of Scots voted for a political party with notably different policies to UK-wide parties? Presumably if we thought the same way as everyone in the UL (excluding NI) we'd have picked Labour or Conservative like the good old days?
gaius 11y ago
No, the vote makes perfect sense: Scotland wants political autonomy hence voting SNP in this election, but would like to keep the English money tap flowing, hence voting to stay in the UK in the referendum. It remains to be seen how long this will be possible. Certainly if it were up to the English taxpayer-voter, Scotland would be fiscally autonomous faster than you can toss a caber.
- arethuza 11y ago
  So if there are so many people in England keen to see Scotland go, and I know that there are a lot of people who feel that way, why was so much effort put into the effort by UK organisations to keep Scotland in the Union? Was it just a loss of face or pride thing?
  - gaius 11y ago
    We'd nowhere else to put Trident, in the short term.
    - lotsofmangos 11y ago
      I'm sure there must be somewhere nice in Kent.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Very much so. It would be another bit of the Empire leaving, and a refutation of the idea of the UK as the greatest country in the world. There's also a weird strain of Protestant Unionism that is stuck in the 18th century but seems just below the surface (and on the surface when the Orange Order are marching)
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    The rUK never had a say in it - this point is kinda where things are right now. As of 2011 census the population of Yorkshire, as an example, was just marginally higher than the population of Scotland. Except Scottish people get more money from the treasury and their MPs got to vote on what happens in Yorkshire, the converse largely not being true. It wasn't until the referendum that this situation got the spotlight. Nonetheless I think in general, as a UK citizen myself, that the British (ie UK citizens, the nomenclature gets convoluted!) consider the Union to be central to UK strength as a nation in terms of society and business and much else (education, sport, language, identity, history, position on the world stage, defence, ...). Dissent grows though - once the Pandora's Box of the West Lothian Question had been opened and it started to sink in, and we saw that many in Scotland wanted to ditch the rest of the UK and make a run with what they perceived to be vital resources, that I feel rather unsettled people. Why shouldn't the rUK have voted at the same time whether to kick Scotland out of the Union too - that would have only been fair. Her Majesties government certainly made efforts to retain Scotland in the Union, that could well be key.
IshKebab 11y ago
London always votes against the Tories and we have still ended up with a Tory government. Are you suggesting that London should declare independence from England?
- lmm 11y ago
  And note that the population of London is nearly twice that of Scotland.
- lotsofmangos 11y ago
  Well, it would be funny, especially if you did it at the same time. Could become a sort of Singapore style city-state. Perhaps then have an English parliament back in York. Though Liz might then abdicate, though confusingly except for viewers in Scotland, and go live in Balmoral.
- Zenst 11y ago
  Well maybe that is in part due to the demographics of London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London Which clearly differ from other parts of the country.

by s_kilk 11y ago

arethuza 11y ago

My own view was that I was fairly happy with the status quo after the referendum and before the general election - but it turned out that keeping that wasn't an option. The rUK has swung decisively to the right (e.g. UKIP 12%), the Conservatives have a majority on their own without the moderating influence of the Lib Dems - which is fine as we are a democracy but the people of Scotland clearly have wildly different views (SNP 50%, UKIP 1.6%). Then of course there is the prospect of BoJo as PM - which I think would pretty much guarantee a rapid dissolution of the UK.

s_kilk 11y ago
Agreed on all counts. For those who don't know what we're talking about: this map of the recent UK election results should illustrate the huge divide between Scotland and England: https://flipchartfairytales.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/screen-shot-2015-05-11-at-10-03-33.png https://flipchartfairytales.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/scre... They are two very different cultures.
- gsnedders 11y ago
  I don't think that's really fair — that makes it look like Scotland almost unanimously voted SNP, which they didn't. While yes, the SNP got 50% of the vote, that's far from the 94% of constituencies they won. Similarly, it also overstates the Tories' success in England — actually only 41% of the vote. (And it doesn't look like Labour has anywhere near the same number of seats that the Tories do, even though they're only a hundred off, out of 650.) Being disenfranchised with Westminster is far from a Scottish phenomenon: the SNP's success one can easily argue comes in significant part from the fact they've managed to position themselves as a viable winner in a large number of constituencies, not least through leading the Scottish Government since 2007, as a large proportion of voters end up voting for one of the two largest parties in their constituency given a single-winner system. Convincing the electorate a vote for your minor party isn't a wasted vote is a major part of the challenge of making a small party a real challenge in a large number of constituencies.
- IshKebab 11y ago
  That's a very misleading image. Here's a better one: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03297/2010-vs-2015_3297055a.gif http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03297/2010-vs-20...
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  That image is a screencap from the BBC website AFAICT, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/scotland http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/scotland - 50% of voters in Scotland voted SNP. >They are two very different cultures. // You might be able to show that but not with these election results - is Edinburgh a different culture to the rest of Scotland (well it is, but not any more than Glasgow is different to Aberdeen), is Orkney & Shetland a different culture (same thing applies)? Bradford and Bridlington [2 conurbations in the region of Yorkshire in the UK] are probably more culturally diverse than most random pairs of Scottish and rUK places.
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
>but the people of Scotland clearly have wildly different views // Really? Having lived in Scotland, Wales and England this doesn't seem to be true. The swing to the right I think is in part due to apparent immigration pressures and in part [much more speculatively] a selfish response to poverty (someone has to be poor make sure it's someone else and not me). Scotland doesn't have the same immigration issues as other parts of the UK as far as I can tell in this [1] map you can see the areas with major cities are clearly home to more migrants - Glasgow, Edinburgh and I'm guessing that's Dundee and Perth and Aberdeen [which might be skewed by oil workers?]. Same in England and Wales except that some areas have seen a huge increase in migrant populations [2] indeed in 2012 the migrant population in Scotland was ~7% vs ~13% in the rest of the UK [3]. [Note I'm trusting the stats here, please provide corrections if they seem wrong.] Personally I don't think that Scotland will react more gracefully with similar immigration patterns. Indeed if Scotland secedes from the UK and is successful in gaining entry to the EU then they will be outside the Schengen Area [4, it's been agreed that all new applicants will be accepted as outside the Schengen Area]. That would mean Scotland would likely get a big increase in immigrants too and I suspect the response would be similar. >Then of course there is the prospect of BoJo as PM - which I think would pretty much guarantee a rapid dissolution of the UK. // So there's not much difference between BoJo and SNP then? /s - - - [1] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/immigration-map-britain-foreign-migrants-4669250 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/immigration-map-britain-... [2] http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/maps/census-map-non-uk-born-population-increase-2001-v-2011-england-and-wales http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/... [3] http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/global-international-migrant-stock-scotland-international-comparison http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/global-in... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
- arethuza 11y ago
  "this doesn't seem to be true" So why have 50% of Scots voted for a political party with notably different policies to UK-wide parties? Presumably if we thought the same way as everyone in the UL (excluding NI) we'd have picked Labour or Conservative like the good old days?

gaius 11y ago

No, the vote makes perfect sense: Scotland wants political autonomy hence voting SNP in this election, but would like to keep the English money tap flowing, hence voting to stay in the UK in the referendum. It remains to be seen how long this will be possible. Certainly if it were up to the English taxpayer-voter, Scotland would be fiscally autonomous faster than you can toss a caber.

arethuza 11y ago
So if there are so many people in England keen to see Scotland go, and I know that there are a lot of people who feel that way, why was so much effort put into the effort by UK organisations to keep Scotland in the Union? Was it just a loss of face or pride thing?
- gaius 11y ago
  We'd nowhere else to put Trident, in the short term.
  - lotsofmangos 11y ago
    I'm sure there must be somewhere nice in Kent.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Very much so. It would be another bit of the Empire leaving, and a refutation of the idea of the UK as the greatest country in the world. There's also a weird strain of Protestant Unionism that is stuck in the 18th century but seems just below the surface (and on the surface when the Orange Order are marching)
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  The rUK never had a say in it - this point is kinda where things are right now. As of 2011 census the population of Yorkshire, as an example, was just marginally higher than the population of Scotland. Except Scottish people get more money from the treasury and their MPs got to vote on what happens in Yorkshire, the converse largely not being true. It wasn't until the referendum that this situation got the spotlight. Nonetheless I think in general, as a UK citizen myself, that the British (ie UK citizens, the nomenclature gets convoluted!) consider the Union to be central to UK strength as a nation in terms of society and business and much else (education, sport, language, identity, history, position on the world stage, defence, ...). Dissent grows though - once the Pandora's Box of the West Lothian Question had been opened and it started to sink in, and we saw that many in Scotland wanted to ditch the rest of the UK and make a run with what they perceived to be vital resources, that I feel rather unsettled people. Why shouldn't the rUK have voted at the same time whether to kick Scotland out of the Union too - that would have only been fair. Her Majesties government certainly made efforts to retain Scotland in the Union, that could well be key.

IshKebab 11y ago

London always votes against the Tories and we have still ended up with a Tory government. Are you suggesting that London should declare independence from England?

lmm 11y ago
And note that the population of London is nearly twice that of Scotland.
lotsofmangos 11y ago
Well, it would be funny, especially if you did it at the same time. Could become a sort of Singapore style city-state. Perhaps then have an English parliament back in York. Though Liz might then abdicate, though confusingly except for viewers in Scotland, and go live in Balmoral.
Zenst 11y ago
Well maybe that is in part due to the demographics of London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London Which clearly differ from other parts of the country.