9 ms·

It's funny to see this stuff go full-circle. My parents left the city in the early 90's to move to a small WI farm in the middle of nowhere (15min to get to a t

It's funny to see this stuff go full-circle. My parents left the city in the early 90's to move to a small WI farm in the middle of nowhere (15min to get to a town of 5000 people). I can see the appeal of a simpler life. But the funny thing is, as a kid, I hated it. My parents got tired of the suburbs, I longed for it. They longed for simplicity, I longed for convenience. I hated the idea of having to drive long distances just to get some milk and eggs. I hated the silence, and how secluded I felt. On the bright side, the silence drove me to cobble together an old computer and start programming at the age of 10, but that may have happened no matter where I lived. So perhaps someday I'll snap and feel like moving to the country. But for now I'm quite happy with my wife and kids in the stereotypical suburbs.

torrent-of-ions 11y ago
I grew up in the suburbs and hated it. I hated the idea of having to go long distances to get milk and eggs. I'm happy now in a city centre.
- philbarr 11y ago
  I never understood that about America. I've been lost in the suburbs in Michigan once, driving along for ages with just house after house after house, and thinking, "where's the local shop?" Surely it's got to be worth someone setting up a local shop every couple of miles?
  - hydrogen18 11y ago
    I don't know much about Michigan, but it could be due to zoning that you don't see any shops.
  - Ygg2 11y ago
    Not really. The longer the distance traveled the more you buy per trip. It's universal foraging behavior.
    - shasta 11y ago
      That explains why the mega store doesn't want a local shop but not why there is no local shop.
      - steego 11y ago
        Many Americans don't see the value in a local shop because local shops tend to be more expensive and offer fewer choices. It's easier to consolidate your errands and hit a big grocery store and a big box store.
        EliRivers 11y ago
        That conflicts with a different cultural "fact" I have about US citizens. They love convenience (for example, "convenience stores") and willingly pay extra for it.
        VLM 11y ago
        Its a class thing. Middle levels have the money to burn and often prioritize time over money. Plus complaining about paying $3 for an apple at the gas station quickie mart is a rare and cheap conspicuous consumption opportunity for them. I only have about 2 hours "off" unallocated tonight and I'm not going to spend 1/4 of my time off today saving $2 on the cost of an apple by going out of my way to shop at the food store. For poor people its a poor people budgeting thing. As per the previous recent discussions on HN, poor guy has $3 in pocket, gas station has $3 apple on shelf, he buys it because 1) he doesn't have $5 to buy a 5 pound bag from the supermarket 2) no idea when/if he'll ever have an extra $5 again to spend on an extra luxury like an apple 3) travel isn't free when you're poor so bus fare and hours spent taking public transit to the store and time spent not working means that $5 bag is more like $15 total systemic cost and thats a bit steep for a poor guy who just has a taste for an apple today? Upper levels have their personal assistant / admin assistant buy the apple for them. Its all going to be expense-d and its a rounding error anyway and the admin assistant is in a hurry so fine here take this $3 convenience store apple and I need a receipt for that thanks. And thats how we love our $3 convenience store apples. Despite most apple sales being in 5 pound bags at the supermarket of course.
  - mtbcoder 11y ago
    In the Midwest, suburbs are designed and developed around the car and the "local shops" are generally located in a series of strip malls off the major roads. On the coasts and in denser populated areas, there seems to be a renewed push for more walk-able areas, public transit and such though.
    - narrator 11y ago
      I'll tell you the real, but awful, reason why we have such restrictive zoning in the U.S. The idea behind zoning is to make sure that different classes and races don't have to see each other if they don't want to. Putting commercial retail in a residential area would give outsiders an excuse to be there. The whole "white flight" from the cities has left it's mark on zoning ever since the 1960s. IMHO, this is also the reason for really bad public transit.
      - zrail 11y ago
        > IMHO, this is also the reason for really bad public transit. This is an undisputed fact, as people in those communities will readily protest the "crime train" coming through their neighborhoods.[1][2] [1]: http://lewwaters.com/2012/05/22/light-rail-likely-to-raise-vancouvers-crime-rate-again/ http://lewwaters.com/2012/05/22/light-rail-likely-to-raise-v... [2]: http://larslarson.com/would-you-trust-your-kid-on-the-crime-train/ http://larslarson.com/would-you-trust-your-kid-on-the-crime-...
        pnathan 11y ago
        That's horrifying. 'specially as I thought Portland area had good transit!
        zrail 11y ago
        Don't get me wrong, Portland has excellent transit. However, a very large number of people who work in Portland actually live in Vancouver, WA. Those commuters strenuously object to running light rail over any proposed replacement bridges for the more than 100 year old trestles that currently handle all of that traffic. In addition, commuters to the south of the city limits also strenuously object to light rail running into their neighborhoods.
  - mietek 11y ago
    Apparently, it’s not permitted: > In North-American zoning, zones clearly specify which use is allowed on it. In general, zones allow only one or two uses. For example, a residential single-family detached home zone tolerates only single-family detached houses. Don't try to put a convenience store or a school in one, nor a duplex. http://urbankchoze.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/japanese-zoning.ht... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540845
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      This is purely a suburban problem and typical of the short sightedness of suburban development, which often corrupts the political process because a mandated retail lot is one less high-profit residential home they can't sell. Here in the city, there are shops everywhere. Mix use residential is fairly common with retail on the ground floor and condos/apartments up top. This has created a glut of storefronts with varying results. Its nice to have all these shops, but the glut of small storefronts means much lowered rents than before so a lot of fly-by-night businesses take over, and in my opinion, hurt the neighborhood like pawn shops, yet another open 4am tattoo shop, yet another shitty independent cricket/boost reseller, yet another liquor convenience store, yet another e-cig store, yet another detailing/hand carwash, yet another gourmet-style restaurant that will fold in 12 months, etc. Desireable shops like Trader Joes or Nordstrom can't open in those tiny and no parking storefronts so its high margin retail junk. This isn't as common anymore -- thank god, but when I was a kid, every other residential block in Chicago had a corner bar. A few nice, but most just depressing places full of serious drunks causing problems all through the night. So yeah, being too liberal with business licenses isn't so great. So this kind of thing cuts both ways, but yes, in the suburbs its especially bad. But at least they have the roads and capacity to handle it and their shopping centers are massive, which is nice as you can park at a giant mall or strip mall and get everything you need done. I can't do that, I have no giant structures like this remotely near me. In the city, we need closer stores because of how bad traffic and parking are. If suburban driving was this bad then they'd have the political impetus to change zoning. tldr; city planning is hard and political.
  - maxsilver 11y ago
    It's usually heavily frowned upon to setup a local shop in Michigan like that, and sometimes illegal. Retail creates undesirable traffic and crime (at least, that's their common assumption). The suburbs fight hard to keep that as far away from residential areas as possible. Sometimes they push this to the logical extreme conclusion -- zoning commercial spaces almost exclusively at the edge of their limits. Here's examples of the actual zoning permitted in Kentwood and Grandville, (suburbs of Grand Rapids, Michigan). http://www.ci.kentwood.mi.us/CityOfKentwood/media/files/original-files/planning/Maps/Zoning-Map-%2824x24-in-color%29-Oct2014.pdf http://www.ci.kentwood.mi.us/CityOfKentwood/media/files/orig... http://www.cityofgrandville.com/images/pdf/Zoning%20Map%20April%202010.pdf http://www.cityofgrandville.com/images/pdf/Zoning%20Map%20Ap... On both maps, you'll see almost all of the red (commercial) areas are near various edge boundaries, and there's little-to-no commercial activity allowed near any central neighborhood(s).
    - sliverstorm 11y ago
      It's not for everyone (including me), but there is a certain serenity to a nice suburb with no traffic, small streets, kempt housing, kids wandering around, and faces you recognize. Corporate retail is the antithesis of that vision. A small gas station or tiny corner store is pushing it.
  - mattste 11y ago
    Having grown up in Michigan, I can attest to this. It has made me want to abandon this state so heavily built around the automobile. Even downtown Detroit has wide city streets and few walkable areas. Ann Arbor, on the other hand, is pedestrian friendly, and one can manage without a car.
  - logfromblammo 11y ago
    At a suburban population density of 640/mi^2 (1 acre/person), a circle with 3 mile radius covers 18000 people. A 2 mile radius covers 8000. A 1.5 mile radius covers 4500. A 1 mile radius, only 2000. A 0.5 mile radius has 500 people in it. Realistically, a person walking at 3 mi/h won't walk more than 0.5 miles to visit the local shop, and a person bicycling at 12 mi/h won't go more than 3. They won't, unless they are combining trips. If the shop is on the way to somewhere else, or a very short distance beyond their primary destination, they might go further overall. But pedestrian and bicyclist infrastructure is practically nonexistent anywhere in the US except for a bare handful of cities and suburbs. Many places don't even have sidewalks. Nearly everyone uses an automobile for personal transport. As such, the "local shop" is right there at the gas station. We call them "convenience stores". They are most often placed at the intersection of arterial roads. So if you are lost in the back streets of suburbia, you will never see one. It doesn't make sense from a planning perspective, but it does from a money perspective. When a developer subdivides a large property, they reserve commercial lots next to the arterial road, and build access roads past those into the residential lots. In theory, once the houses are 80% built, all that residential traffic will be flowing past the commercial lots at least twice per day, and a business will build there. In practice, the developer exits after 95% of the houses are built, dumps the remaining 5% and the commercial lots on a strawman company, moving on to the next subdivision, and those businesses never actually get constructed. So you end up with huge areas of houses and very few businesses. There might be one strip mall every 3 miles, filled with businesses that usually last a few months before failing from lack of customers. (The exception is the pizza delivery, which will be absolutely thriving.) Residential buildings simply have a higher profit margin. Think about that before you decide to trust the developer's "phase IV" plans, when you're buying in "phase I".
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      Many places don't even have sidewalks. The USA would be a much nicer place if no new residential development could be built without sidewalks. It would only require a little vision on the part of planning & zoning boards, with perhaps a little empathy for children, the elderly, and others who can't drive.
  - VLM 11y ago
    Economy of scale when constructing. You can usually tell the age of a burb by how big its zones are. Some of the newest burbs have absolutely huge, staggering, sized zones. I live in a burb thats a bit over fifty years old and there's no spot more than maybe 6 blocks from the arterial retail/commercial/restaurant strips? In some new burbs you can easily be over a mile from anything other than residential. I will say that when I was a kid there was a lot more to do in big zones because obviously there's more basements and garages and back yards and just plain old more kids. I mean, there's only about 200 kids in my current subdivision so with a distribution of ages its quite likely that there's no one to hang out with in the neighborhood for my own kids, whereas that's never an issue in a bigger zone where there's always a friend in the same neighborhood to hang out with. Some modern zones are so big that entire elementary school districts live within the borders of single zone! Obviously those kids always have someone to hang out with in the neighborhood. And of course the bigger the zone, the crazier the traffic on the roads between the zones, which sucks.
  - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
    Americans are big optimizers. Our retail has gone big for logistical and economy of scale reasons. Paradoxically, this is how we are frugal while maintaining a nod to consumerism. For a complex set of reasons ( much of which involves how our tax system works ) , we tend to separate housing space from business space unless you're in a city where that grew up closer together. Suburbs are unnatural and inorganic, and that's what people either hate or love about them. This being said, there's frequently a "convenience store" that's sometimes closer than Big Mart. No veggies or actually even food, but they're there.
    - Symbiote 11y ago
      Optimising what? Logistics for the supermarket? The British are big optimisers. That's why the supermarket oligopoly (Tesco, Sainsbury's etc) have taken over many -- perhaps even the majority -- of small, neighbourhood shops (Tesco Express, Sainsbury's Local etc). The distribution centres and large vehicle fleet that delivers to the big supermarkets is reused to deliver to the neighbourhood shops, and many people then walk (or cycle) to those shops. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+London/@51.5286417,-0.1015987,11z/data=!3m1!4b1?hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+Nottingham/@52.9520834,-1.163367,14z?hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+... Milton Keynes is generally regarded as a boring, US-style city: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+Milton+Keynes/@52.0334146,-0.7574871,13z?hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+... (I've never been).
      - adwf 11y ago
        Milton Keynes is probably the worst place I've ever been to in the UK. No easy walking around town. All chain stores, very few independent shops. No hailable black cabs for some reason, everything involved calling a minicab and waiting. Just a terrible city to be in without a car and a designated driver.
      - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
        Optimizing multiple things at once - logistics for suppliers, specified land use on adjacent parcels ( a nod to developers ) , but mostly tax revenue for the town where zoning happens. The British invented optimization in the WWII sense of the word, so yeah. I don't know Britain beyond what I read of it, but I understand there's the concept of "little Britain" as a thing so maybe that's why small shops exist. In Montreal, I know there are actual bodegas in the city center and American-style convenience stores in the 'burbs.
- nkozyra 11y ago
  I have this feeling that kids tend to hate where they grow up due to all of the perceived failings and things they're missing out on. I grew up in a relaxed beach town in Florida, and hated it. My family all moved from NYC and fell in love in a heartbeat. Something about not being in the same place for too long applies here, too.
  - kenrikm 11y ago
    Grew up in Fort Lauderdale (city) and my family owned land over in Everglades City (country) where we would go and enjoy the outdoors. Swimming fishing and boating in the 10,000 islands. Overall I actually had a pretty good childhood. A few years ago I moved to the Bay Area and do like it here. However recently I've been looking to purchase some land just outside the Bay Area to build a small cabin and grow a garden,and enjoy the outdoors. I feel like it's important that my son not just grow up in an apartment playing on playgrounds with rubberized ground so he does not hurt himself.
    - declan 11y ago
      >I've been looking to purchase some land just outside the Bay Area to build a small cabin... You can do this in the Bay Area itself, though in general the closer you want to be to a supermarket, bank, etc. the more you'll pay. If you're west of Palo Alto, Los Altos, Mountain View, Cupertino and cross the 280, you encounter rural areas very quickly. And if you head far enough into the hills, prices begin to fall rapidly relative to flatland prices. Near Boulder Creek, for instance, you can get 2 acres for $52K that's three miles from a shopping area: https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Lorenzo-Valley/0-HARMON-GULCH-95006/home/23468434 https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Lorenzo-Valley/0-HARMON-GULCH-... That's 23 miles from Cupertino via route 17 and smaller roads. Of course it helps if you enjoy living in the middle of the woods! I've posted about this concept on HN before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9437492 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9437492
      - kenrikm 11y ago
        Yup, also if you head south you get more open ground and the prices fall rapidly. For example I found a some land within an hour of San Jose with 100acres for 200k. The trick is finding a lot with good water access. I'm up in San Mateo so it's a bit more of a drive. Ideally I could get somthing within an hour and a half drive at a reasonable price.
- jnet 11y ago
  I grew up in the city. As I got older I realized that I didn't want my children to have to deal with the dirt, crime, rats, and noise that I had to deal with when I was growing up. Hopefully, they will appreciate the things I didn't have as a kid. A backyard, nice neighbors, low crime,and better schools.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >Hopefully, they will appreciate the things I didn't have as a kid. A backyard, nice neighbors, low crime,and better schools. They'll appreciate them as kids, but they'll probably hate you as teenagers...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- atmosx 11y ago
  I live in a small town in Northern Greece and hate the idea to drive a long distance[1] to get milk and eggs. [1] A long distance where I live is anything more than 8 minutes drive.
- sredne 11y ago
  I grew up in the suburbs also, and hated it. As a kid, you have no freedom until the age of 16 where you have the POSSIBILITY of owning a car/borrowing your parent's car. We had bikes, but the nearest anything was 1-1.5 miles away, and there were very little sidewalks or safe places to bike. Nothing was convenient without a car. I went to school in a small/medium city (Champaign/Urbana) and loved it. It was the perfect mix of having a city and space for a small suburban life. I lived in a house that was off campus, and was within walking distance to downtown and busing distance to the bars/main campus. It was peaceful and crazy when I wanted it to be. I now live in Chicago and while I love the convenience of everything(huge advocate of all things public transit), I miss being able to easily just disconnect from urban life. My next move will probably be somewhere warmer, but it'll probably be in a small/medium sized city for sure.
- greggman 11y ago
  I grew up in the suburbs and loved it. It was safe. I was allowed to go miles in any direction. I'd go 5 miles to Disneyland or 9 miles to El Dorado Park. I'd ride 3 miles to Knott's Berry Farm or 3 miles the closest mall. I could launch model rockets at the local school. There was some dirt patches where kids would make berms for riding their bikes on. My friends were all within a couple of miles. We'd play D&D and use peanut M&Ms as monsters. There was a bunch of hobbit stores just a mile away where I got model rocket parts and other hobby things.
  - locustreign 11y ago
    You grew up very close to me and I'm still playing D&D! I don't mind the suburbs at all, I'm very content having access to Los Angeles (with a bit of a drive) and then not have to worry about where to find parking at night when I get home.
  - aswanson 11y ago
    How could someone who grew up in a suburb where he could buy rockets from Bilbo Baggins, et al, not have a fun childhood? :) Seriously though, I hated the suburb I grew up in. Something happens around 12-13 where kids need a change from the early childhood setting, I think. It was a great place for that time period was was too small of a world after that.
  - symkat 11y ago
    You just captured my early teens -- I lived up and down Beach Blvd in the La Habra to Anaheim area from the time I was 5-6 until my mid-teens, and then spent a lot of time in Huntington Beach. I never really thought of it as the suburbs at the time. Thanks!
- blueskin_ 11y ago
  I had the same feeling - plus the broadband there was terrible. I would never live in a suburb even if I was paid to. The middle of nowhere though, would be even worse than a suburb as it's the same problems but more so and without the (relative) proximity to work.
- sbov 11y ago
  I grew up in the suburbs and I was fine with it. As an adult I prefer city life. I probably would have hated SF as a kid. I've lived in SF for 7 years, and I can't think of anything that is more convenient that I would have cared about as a kid. I don't know if its just SF, but it seems very adult oriented. That said, while growing up, the closest mini mall was about 1.5 miles away. Which we would go to because one of the shops had arcade games. I've never lived in a suburb (3 of them) that wasn't 1-1.5 miles from a mini mall. That is easily within biking distance. We didn't spend most of our time there though. We spent most of our time in the hills around us (South San Jose), and on the Baseball fields/Basketball courts at the local elementary school. Or playing baseball with tennis balls in our cul-de-sac. Or digging forts in our backyard. Or riding our skateboards through the streets.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  I think the reason why kids and co don't like X is probably because of isolation effects. If you can independently travel to wherever you want with little hassle and have a rich social life, then you'll like where you live. If you have helicopter parents in the suburbs or city centre that insist to drive you on their schedule to wherever, then you'll hate it.
- kstop 11y ago
  I hated it even more, which is why I now live in the crawlspace of a supermarket.
- aidenn0 11y ago
  I grew up in the suburbs and walked to the store to get milk and eggs. I had to bike to get to the library in a reasonable time though.
rickdale 11y ago
I live in the country. Most of the year I can get food from farms that are located less than 2 miles from me, all on my street. It's phenomenal. The closest decent grocery store is an hour plus, so its nice to be able to get stuff from neighbors and it makes you eat healthy.
kokey 11y ago
I can relate, though we lived on the edge of a town of 8000 people but it was 3 hours drive to a city and this was in South Africa. I hated it, I loved visiting the city. I moved to the city as soon as I could, and moved to bigger cities and other countries. That said the appeal of living in the countryside would always tempt me. Recently I was working remotely, so we decided to move to a nice big house in the country, outside of a village of a few hundred people. It was nice, but remote and lonely and after 6 months we're happy to be back in a city again, in a well connected part of a city where we can easily choose between going into the city centre or being outside of the city.
thearn4 11y ago
I grew up in the middle of the city, and recently moved out to 4 acres of country land. I guess we all crave a change of scenery eventually.
bayonetz 11y ago
I heard a good quote related to full-circleism one time: "What the sons wants to forget, the grandson wants to remember"
bkjelden 11y ago
I'm in a similar situation. Grew up in a very rural area, swore to never live in the country as soon as I could leave. Now I find myself wanting to move back someday - find a few acres just outside of a city. I miss the quiet and the privacy.

torrent-of-ions 11y ago

I grew up in the suburbs and hated it. I hated the idea of having to go long distances to get milk and eggs. I'm happy now in a city centre.

philbarr 11y ago
I never understood that about America. I've been lost in the suburbs in Michigan once, driving along for ages with just house after house after house, and thinking, "where's the local shop?" Surely it's got to be worth someone setting up a local shop every couple of miles?
- hydrogen18 11y ago
  I don't know much about Michigan, but it could be due to zoning that you don't see any shops.
- Ygg2 11y ago
  Not really. The longer the distance traveled the more you buy per trip. It's universal foraging behavior.
  - shasta 11y ago
    That explains why the mega store doesn't want a local shop but not why there is no local shop.
    - steego 11y ago
      Many Americans don't see the value in a local shop because local shops tend to be more expensive and offer fewer choices. It's easier to consolidate your errands and hit a big grocery store and a big box store.
      - EliRivers 11y ago
        That conflicts with a different cultural "fact" I have about US citizens. They love convenience (for example, "convenience stores") and willingly pay extra for it.
        VLM 11y ago
        Its a class thing. Middle levels have the money to burn and often prioritize time over money. Plus complaining about paying $3 for an apple at the gas station quickie mart is a rare and cheap conspicuous consumption opportunity for them. I only have about 2 hours "off" unallocated tonight and I'm not going to spend 1/4 of my time off today saving $2 on the cost of an apple by going out of my way to shop at the food store. For poor people its a poor people budgeting thing. As per the previous recent discussions on HN, poor guy has $3 in pocket, gas station has $3 apple on shelf, he buys it because 1) he doesn't have $5 to buy a 5 pound bag from the supermarket 2) no idea when/if he'll ever have an extra $5 again to spend on an extra luxury like an apple 3) travel isn't free when you're poor so bus fare and hours spent taking public transit to the store and time spent not working means that $5 bag is more like $15 total systemic cost and thats a bit steep for a poor guy who just has a taste for an apple today? Upper levels have their personal assistant / admin assistant buy the apple for them. Its all going to be expense-d and its a rounding error anyway and the admin assistant is in a hurry so fine here take this $3 convenience store apple and I need a receipt for that thanks. And thats how we love our $3 convenience store apples. Despite most apple sales being in 5 pound bags at the supermarket of course.
- mtbcoder 11y ago
  In the Midwest, suburbs are designed and developed around the car and the "local shops" are generally located in a series of strip malls off the major roads. On the coasts and in denser populated areas, there seems to be a renewed push for more walk-able areas, public transit and such though.
  - narrator 11y ago
    I'll tell you the real, but awful, reason why we have such restrictive zoning in the U.S. The idea behind zoning is to make sure that different classes and races don't have to see each other if they don't want to. Putting commercial retail in a residential area would give outsiders an excuse to be there. The whole "white flight" from the cities has left it's mark on zoning ever since the 1960s. IMHO, this is also the reason for really bad public transit.
    - zrail 11y ago
      > IMHO, this is also the reason for really bad public transit. This is an undisputed fact, as people in those communities will readily protest the "crime train" coming through their neighborhoods.[1][2] [1]: http://lewwaters.com/2012/05/22/light-rail-likely-to-raise-vancouvers-crime-rate-again/ http://lewwaters.com/2012/05/22/light-rail-likely-to-raise-v... [2]: http://larslarson.com/would-you-trust-your-kid-on-the-crime-train/ http://larslarson.com/would-you-trust-your-kid-on-the-crime-...
      - pnathan 11y ago
        That's horrifying. 'specially as I thought Portland area had good transit!
        zrail 11y ago
        Don't get me wrong, Portland has excellent transit. However, a very large number of people who work in Portland actually live in Vancouver, WA. Those commuters strenuously object to running light rail over any proposed replacement bridges for the more than 100 year old trestles that currently handle all of that traffic. In addition, commuters to the south of the city limits also strenuously object to light rail running into their neighborhoods.
- mietek 11y ago
  Apparently, it’s not permitted: > In North-American zoning, zones clearly specify which use is allowed on it. In general, zones allow only one or two uses. For example, a residential single-family detached home zone tolerates only single-family detached houses. Don't try to put a convenience store or a school in one, nor a duplex. http://urbankchoze.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/japanese-zoning.ht... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540845
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    This is purely a suburban problem and typical of the short sightedness of suburban development, which often corrupts the political process because a mandated retail lot is one less high-profit residential home they can't sell. Here in the city, there are shops everywhere. Mix use residential is fairly common with retail on the ground floor and condos/apartments up top. This has created a glut of storefronts with varying results. Its nice to have all these shops, but the glut of small storefronts means much lowered rents than before so a lot of fly-by-night businesses take over, and in my opinion, hurt the neighborhood like pawn shops, yet another open 4am tattoo shop, yet another shitty independent cricket/boost reseller, yet another liquor convenience store, yet another e-cig store, yet another detailing/hand carwash, yet another gourmet-style restaurant that will fold in 12 months, etc. Desireable shops like Trader Joes or Nordstrom can't open in those tiny and no parking storefronts so its high margin retail junk. This isn't as common anymore -- thank god, but when I was a kid, every other residential block in Chicago had a corner bar. A few nice, but most just depressing places full of serious drunks causing problems all through the night. So yeah, being too liberal with business licenses isn't so great. So this kind of thing cuts both ways, but yes, in the suburbs its especially bad. But at least they have the roads and capacity to handle it and their shopping centers are massive, which is nice as you can park at a giant mall or strip mall and get everything you need done. I can't do that, I have no giant structures like this remotely near me. In the city, we need closer stores because of how bad traffic and parking are. If suburban driving was this bad then they'd have the political impetus to change zoning. tldr; city planning is hard and political.
- maxsilver 11y ago
  It's usually heavily frowned upon to setup a local shop in Michigan like that, and sometimes illegal. Retail creates undesirable traffic and crime (at least, that's their common assumption). The suburbs fight hard to keep that as far away from residential areas as possible. Sometimes they push this to the logical extreme conclusion -- zoning commercial spaces almost exclusively at the edge of their limits. Here's examples of the actual zoning permitted in Kentwood and Grandville, (suburbs of Grand Rapids, Michigan). http://www.ci.kentwood.mi.us/CityOfKentwood/media/files/original-files/planning/Maps/Zoning-Map-%2824x24-in-color%29-Oct2014.pdf http://www.ci.kentwood.mi.us/CityOfKentwood/media/files/orig... http://www.cityofgrandville.com/images/pdf/Zoning%20Map%20April%202010.pdf http://www.cityofgrandville.com/images/pdf/Zoning%20Map%20Ap... On both maps, you'll see almost all of the red (commercial) areas are near various edge boundaries, and there's little-to-no commercial activity allowed near any central neighborhood(s).
  - sliverstorm 11y ago
    It's not for everyone (including me), but there is a certain serenity to a nice suburb with no traffic, small streets, kempt housing, kids wandering around, and faces you recognize. Corporate retail is the antithesis of that vision. A small gas station or tiny corner store is pushing it.
- mattste 11y ago
  Having grown up in Michigan, I can attest to this. It has made me want to abandon this state so heavily built around the automobile. Even downtown Detroit has wide city streets and few walkable areas. Ann Arbor, on the other hand, is pedestrian friendly, and one can manage without a car.
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  At a suburban population density of 640/mi^2 (1 acre/person), a circle with 3 mile radius covers 18000 people. A 2 mile radius covers 8000. A 1.5 mile radius covers 4500. A 1 mile radius, only 2000. A 0.5 mile radius has 500 people in it. Realistically, a person walking at 3 mi/h won't walk more than 0.5 miles to visit the local shop, and a person bicycling at 12 mi/h won't go more than 3. They won't, unless they are combining trips. If the shop is on the way to somewhere else, or a very short distance beyond their primary destination, they might go further overall. But pedestrian and bicyclist infrastructure is practically nonexistent anywhere in the US except for a bare handful of cities and suburbs. Many places don't even have sidewalks. Nearly everyone uses an automobile for personal transport. As such, the "local shop" is right there at the gas station. We call them "convenience stores". They are most often placed at the intersection of arterial roads. So if you are lost in the back streets of suburbia, you will never see one. It doesn't make sense from a planning perspective, but it does from a money perspective. When a developer subdivides a large property, they reserve commercial lots next to the arterial road, and build access roads past those into the residential lots. In theory, once the houses are 80% built, all that residential traffic will be flowing past the commercial lots at least twice per day, and a business will build there. In practice, the developer exits after 95% of the houses are built, dumps the remaining 5% and the commercial lots on a strawman company, moving on to the next subdivision, and those businesses never actually get constructed. So you end up with huge areas of houses and very few businesses. There might be one strip mall every 3 miles, filled with businesses that usually last a few months before failing from lack of customers. (The exception is the pizza delivery, which will be absolutely thriving.) Residential buildings simply have a higher profit margin. Think about that before you decide to trust the developer's "phase IV" plans, when you're buying in "phase I".
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    Many places don't even have sidewalks. The USA would be a much nicer place if no new residential development could be built without sidewalks. It would only require a little vision on the part of planning & zoning boards, with perhaps a little empathy for children, the elderly, and others who can't drive.
- VLM 11y ago
  Economy of scale when constructing. You can usually tell the age of a burb by how big its zones are. Some of the newest burbs have absolutely huge, staggering, sized zones. I live in a burb thats a bit over fifty years old and there's no spot more than maybe 6 blocks from the arterial retail/commercial/restaurant strips? In some new burbs you can easily be over a mile from anything other than residential. I will say that when I was a kid there was a lot more to do in big zones because obviously there's more basements and garages and back yards and just plain old more kids. I mean, there's only about 200 kids in my current subdivision so with a distribution of ages its quite likely that there's no one to hang out with in the neighborhood for my own kids, whereas that's never an issue in a bigger zone where there's always a friend in the same neighborhood to hang out with. Some modern zones are so big that entire elementary school districts live within the borders of single zone! Obviously those kids always have someone to hang out with in the neighborhood. And of course the bigger the zone, the crazier the traffic on the roads between the zones, which sucks.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  Americans are big optimizers. Our retail has gone big for logistical and economy of scale reasons. Paradoxically, this is how we are frugal while maintaining a nod to consumerism. For a complex set of reasons ( much of which involves how our tax system works ) , we tend to separate housing space from business space unless you're in a city where that grew up closer together. Suburbs are unnatural and inorganic, and that's what people either hate or love about them. This being said, there's frequently a "convenience store" that's sometimes closer than Big Mart. No veggies or actually even food, but they're there.
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    Optimising what? Logistics for the supermarket? The British are big optimisers. That's why the supermarket oligopoly (Tesco, Sainsbury's etc) have taken over many -- perhaps even the majority -- of small, neighbourhood shops (Tesco Express, Sainsbury's Local etc). The distribution centres and large vehicle fleet that delivers to the big supermarkets is reused to deliver to the neighbourhood shops, and many people then walk (or cycle) to those shops. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+London/@51.5286417,-0.1015987,11z/data=!3m1!4b1?hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+Nottingham/@52.9520834,-1.163367,14z?hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+... Milton Keynes is generally regarded as a boring, US-style city: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+Milton+Keynes/@52.0334146,-0.7574871,13z?hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Tesco+OR+Sainsburys+in+... (I've never been).
    - adwf 11y ago
      Milton Keynes is probably the worst place I've ever been to in the UK. No easy walking around town. All chain stores, very few independent shops. No hailable black cabs for some reason, everything involved calling a minicab and waiting. Just a terrible city to be in without a car and a designated driver.
    - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
      Optimizing multiple things at once - logistics for suppliers, specified land use on adjacent parcels ( a nod to developers ) , but mostly tax revenue for the town where zoning happens. The British invented optimization in the WWII sense of the word, so yeah. I don't know Britain beyond what I read of it, but I understand there's the concept of "little Britain" as a thing so maybe that's why small shops exist. In Montreal, I know there are actual bodegas in the city center and American-style convenience stores in the 'burbs.
nkozyra 11y ago
I have this feeling that kids tend to hate where they grow up due to all of the perceived failings and things they're missing out on. I grew up in a relaxed beach town in Florida, and hated it. My family all moved from NYC and fell in love in a heartbeat. Something about not being in the same place for too long applies here, too.
- kenrikm 11y ago
  Grew up in Fort Lauderdale (city) and my family owned land over in Everglades City (country) where we would go and enjoy the outdoors. Swimming fishing and boating in the 10,000 islands. Overall I actually had a pretty good childhood. A few years ago I moved to the Bay Area and do like it here. However recently I've been looking to purchase some land just outside the Bay Area to build a small cabin and grow a garden,and enjoy the outdoors. I feel like it's important that my son not just grow up in an apartment playing on playgrounds with rubberized ground so he does not hurt himself.
  - declan 11y ago
    >I've been looking to purchase some land just outside the Bay Area to build a small cabin... You can do this in the Bay Area itself, though in general the closer you want to be to a supermarket, bank, etc. the more you'll pay. If you're west of Palo Alto, Los Altos, Mountain View, Cupertino and cross the 280, you encounter rural areas very quickly. And if you head far enough into the hills, prices begin to fall rapidly relative to flatland prices. Near Boulder Creek, for instance, you can get 2 acres for $52K that's three miles from a shopping area: https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Lorenzo-Valley/0-HARMON-GULCH-95006/home/23468434 https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Lorenzo-Valley/0-HARMON-GULCH-... That's 23 miles from Cupertino via route 17 and smaller roads. Of course it helps if you enjoy living in the middle of the woods! I've posted about this concept on HN before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9437492 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9437492
    - kenrikm 11y ago
      Yup, also if you head south you get more open ground and the prices fall rapidly. For example I found a some land within an hour of San Jose with 100acres for 200k. The trick is finding a lot with good water access. I'm up in San Mateo so it's a bit more of a drive. Ideally I could get somthing within an hour and a half drive at a reasonable price.
jnet 11y ago
I grew up in the city. As I got older I realized that I didn't want my children to have to deal with the dirt, crime, rats, and noise that I had to deal with when I was growing up. Hopefully, they will appreciate the things I didn't have as a kid. A backyard, nice neighbors, low crime,and better schools.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Hopefully, they will appreciate the things I didn't have as a kid. A backyard, nice neighbors, low crime,and better schools. They'll appreciate them as kids, but they'll probably hate you as teenagers...
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atmosx 11y ago
I live in a small town in Northern Greece and hate the idea to drive a long distance[1] to get milk and eggs. [1] A long distance where I live is anything more than 8 minutes drive.
sredne 11y ago
I grew up in the suburbs also, and hated it. As a kid, you have no freedom until the age of 16 where you have the POSSIBILITY of owning a car/borrowing your parent's car. We had bikes, but the nearest anything was 1-1.5 miles away, and there were very little sidewalks or safe places to bike. Nothing was convenient without a car. I went to school in a small/medium city (Champaign/Urbana) and loved it. It was the perfect mix of having a city and space for a small suburban life. I lived in a house that was off campus, and was within walking distance to downtown and busing distance to the bars/main campus. It was peaceful and crazy when I wanted it to be. I now live in Chicago and while I love the convenience of everything(huge advocate of all things public transit), I miss being able to easily just disconnect from urban life. My next move will probably be somewhere warmer, but it'll probably be in a small/medium sized city for sure.
greggman 11y ago
I grew up in the suburbs and loved it. It was safe. I was allowed to go miles in any direction. I'd go 5 miles to Disneyland or 9 miles to El Dorado Park. I'd ride 3 miles to Knott's Berry Farm or 3 miles the closest mall. I could launch model rockets at the local school. There was some dirt patches where kids would make berms for riding their bikes on. My friends were all within a couple of miles. We'd play D&D and use peanut M&Ms as monsters. There was a bunch of hobbit stores just a mile away where I got model rocket parts and other hobby things.
- locustreign 11y ago
  You grew up very close to me and I'm still playing D&D! I don't mind the suburbs at all, I'm very content having access to Los Angeles (with a bit of a drive) and then not have to worry about where to find parking at night when I get home.
- aswanson 11y ago
  How could someone who grew up in a suburb where he could buy rockets from Bilbo Baggins, et al, not have a fun childhood? :) Seriously though, I hated the suburb I grew up in. Something happens around 12-13 where kids need a change from the early childhood setting, I think. It was a great place for that time period was was too small of a world after that.
- symkat 11y ago
  You just captured my early teens -- I lived up and down Beach Blvd in the La Habra to Anaheim area from the time I was 5-6 until my mid-teens, and then spent a lot of time in Huntington Beach. I never really thought of it as the suburbs at the time. Thanks!
blueskin_ 11y ago
I had the same feeling - plus the broadband there was terrible. I would never live in a suburb even if I was paid to. The middle of nowhere though, would be even worse than a suburb as it's the same problems but more so and without the (relative) proximity to work.
sbov 11y ago
I grew up in the suburbs and I was fine with it. As an adult I prefer city life. I probably would have hated SF as a kid. I've lived in SF for 7 years, and I can't think of anything that is more convenient that I would have cared about as a kid. I don't know if its just SF, but it seems very adult oriented. That said, while growing up, the closest mini mall was about 1.5 miles away. Which we would go to because one of the shops had arcade games. I've never lived in a suburb (3 of them) that wasn't 1-1.5 miles from a mini mall. That is easily within biking distance. We didn't spend most of our time there though. We spent most of our time in the hills around us (South San Jose), and on the Baseball fields/Basketball courts at the local elementary school. Or playing baseball with tennis balls in our cul-de-sac. Or digging forts in our backyard. Or riding our skateboards through the streets.
mahyarm 11y ago
I think the reason why kids and co don't like X is probably because of isolation effects. If you can independently travel to wherever you want with little hassle and have a rich social life, then you'll like where you live. If you have helicopter parents in the suburbs or city centre that insist to drive you on their schedule to wherever, then you'll hate it.
kstop 11y ago
I hated it even more, which is why I now live in the crawlspace of a supermarket.
aidenn0 11y ago
I grew up in the suburbs and walked to the store to get milk and eggs. I had to bike to get to the library in a reasonable time though.

rickdale 11y ago

I live in the country. Most of the year I can get food from farms that are located less than 2 miles from me, all on my street. It's phenomenal. The closest decent grocery store is an hour plus, so its nice to be able to get stuff from neighbors and it makes you eat healthy.

kokey 11y ago

I can relate, though we lived on the edge of a town of 8000 people but it was 3 hours drive to a city and this was in South Africa. I hated it, I loved visiting the city. I moved to the city as soon as I could, and moved to bigger cities and other countries. That said the appeal of living in the countryside would always tempt me. Recently I was working remotely, so we decided to move to a nice big house in the country, outside of a village of a few hundred people. It was nice, but remote and lonely and after 6 months we're happy to be back in a city again, in a well connected part of a city where we can easily choose between going into the city centre or being outside of the city.

thearn4 11y ago

I grew up in the middle of the city, and recently moved out to 4 acres of country land. I guess we all crave a change of scenery eventually.

bayonetz 11y ago

I heard a good quote related to full-circleism one time: "What the sons wants to forget, the grandson wants to remember"

bkjelden 11y ago

I'm in a similar situation. Grew up in a very rural area, swore to never live in the country as soon as I could leave. Now I find myself wanting to move back someday - find a few acres just outside of a city. I miss the quiet and the privacy.