6 ms·

Debian GNU/Hurd 2015 released

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
I have a snapshot from May 2014 running as a VirtualBox instance. Tried IceWM and a GNU build chain on it. I'll probably update soon, need to find out what open issues have been addressed in 0.6.
- christianbryant 11y ago
  I just rolled GNU/Hurd 2015 into a VM. It's early, but the first thing I'll note is that I felt for the first time that GNU/Hurd is a deployable OS. Still, I need that 64-bit version... killing me, here!
  - mikegioia 11y ago
    Do you have any info or a website you could point me to on how to build the image into a virtualbox VM? Running VBoxManage from their guide [1] isn't working for me. I can create the VDI file but on boot I'm getting an error saying hd0s1 isn't found >_< [1] https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-install https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-install
    - christianbryant 11y ago
      Have you tried qemu/kvm? You also use the pre-rolled here: http://ftp.debian-ports.org/debian-cd/hurd-i386/current/README.txt http://ftp.debian-ports.org/debian-cd/hurd-i386/current/READ...
GuamPirate 11y ago
I'm extremely excited to check this out! I really like the idea of translators, and low and behold when I log in there's a tutorial on them in root's home directory! I might switch to this if the ui is bearable enough.
- thomasahle 11y ago
  Link: http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/documentation/translator_primer.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/documentation/translat...
fs111 11y ago
I am writing this comment from a modern graphical webbrowser running on an OS with the GNU kernel. Who thought this day would ever come?
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  Bare metal or VM?
  - fs111 11y ago
    VirtualBox. I don't have a spare machine lying around, but still cool...
    - Goladus 11y ago
      Relevant question I would say is that even if you did have a spare machine lying around, how well would Hurd support its hardware?
      - christianbryant 11y ago
        It will be interesting to see if the Debian influence will promote the availability of a wide variety of architectures, including the options to load non-free firmware. From the GNU/FSF standpoint, this is at its core a GNU project, and GNU promotes freedom, free software and the rejection of non-free code. If a wide array of hardware support emerges, it will not come from the GNU portion of the project, where only either "freed" hardware (via coreboot, etc) or hardware with open specs is the target. Please note that "hardware" does not mean "system" - likely you can install on any number of systems that include lots of "closed" and unsupported hardware, but where you go from there is up to you... http://www.nongnu.org/thug/gnumach_hardware.html http://www.nongnu.org/thug/gnumach_hardware.html
        mattl 11y ago
        I don't know how well known it is, but Debian was started when Ian Murdock was an FSF employee.
lessthunk 11y ago
What are your main motivations to use GNU Hurd? Not wanting to troll, fishing for a link for good background reading
- christianbryant 11y ago
  Advantages: http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/technical-advantages-of-the-hurd.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/t...
  - bsaul 11y ago
    Just read the advantages, some parts seem a bit old. Touting object oriented design as something enabling refactoring, whereas the trend for the last fifteen years has been toward interface-oriented design (with golang being the most extreme case). Also, in a world of unikernels and app containers (trending toward the most static and restricted deployment unit possible), having an os being able to change its parts while running seems a bit useless. But, who knows ? maybe we'll see new patterns emerge. That's a fantastic time for people interested in OSes.
    - codeulike 11y ago
      the Hurd has an object-oriented structure that allows it to evolve without compromising its design. This structure will help the Hurd undergo major redesign and modifications without having to be entirely rewritten. Yeah, good luck with that. OO is great but I'm not sure major redesigns are any easier in OO compared to any other arch. Having a completely different OS arch in play does sound good though, perhaps opening up possibilities we havent realised yet. Perhaps someone should re-write that 'advantages' page to encompass the massive changes in Software thinking since it was first written in 2001.
      - noblethrasher 11y ago
        > Yeah, good luck with that. OO is great but I'm not sure major redesigns are any easier in OO compared to any other arch. It depends on what they mean by OO. I can't find a source at the moment, but I've heard of Smalltalk applications that have been running the "same" incrementally modified image[1] since the 1970s or 1980s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persistence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persisten...
breakingcups 11y ago
>Since the last snapshot release coinciding with "wheezy", the init system has been switched to sysvinit for a more Debian-like experience. Hehehe, didn't Debian just switch to systemd with Jessie?
- teddyh 11y ago
  They changed the default to systemd. Sysvinit is still available.
  - 0xFFC 11y ago
    Availability of Sysvinit does not mean you can use it as safe as systemd , there is no requirement for Sysvinit support in debian package's anymore , so if you want use Sysvinit then you maybe encounter some package which does not work on debian.
- e12e 11y ago
  Debian/kFreeBSD also cannot run systemd -- it's been designed for Linux, rather than for portability.
kriro 11y ago
Very nice. I'll check it out when I get home. Certainly had this filed as "it might never happen" and haven't checked on the progress in quite some time. I hope someone will build an OS course around it eventually. Seems pretty good for teaching purposes. Congratulations to everyone involved.
pedrow 11y ago
I wanted to look at the source code. Just to save anyone else the time to find it, the link is: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/hurd.git/tree/?id=v0.6 http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/hurd.git/tree/?id=v0.6
- satuon 11y ago
  Why Savannah (in savannah.gnu.org I mean)?
  - detaro 11y ago
    Gnus live in the Savannah?
  - reitanqild 11y ago
    Edit: ninjaed by detaro
tormeh 11y ago
What are the advantages vs. Minix 3?
- mreiland 11y ago
  how far along is Minix 3?
  - mreiland 11y ago
    if there's one thing I never expected it was to be downvoted for asking a legitimate question.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Sounds similar to hurd. 32bit only, graphical ui, bsd applications. Theoretically usable as a daily driver.
    - carussell 11y ago
      > graphical ui Not currently. > Theoretically usable as a daily driver. Not likely.
- kasabali 11y ago
  Minix 3 doesn't have Debian userspace :)
  - xai3luGi 11y ago
    It did back in 2011, at least on one Debian developer's computer: http://www.braincells.com/debian/index.cgi/search/item=270 http://www.braincells.com/debian/index.cgi/search/item=270
- carussell 11y ago
  Hurd is based on Mach and available for x86 only. You can run X11 and Debian packages. Drivers for Linux have been ported. Debian/Hurd re-uses some of the Debian community infrastructure for development. Has a goal ("viable for everyday use, and gives users and programs as much control over their computing environment as possible"). The focus yields things at the intersection of research/pragmatic use (e.g., introducing novel features like translators). Minix is less mature from a community standpoint and its development processes. It's developed and run by about half a dozen contributors (generous estimate). Mostly students. Lacks leadership. It runs on x86 and arm. The microkernel design is its own. It's been possible to run X on past versions, but despite other comments, X11 is not actually usable on the latest release (3.3.0, released 2014 September). No (graphical) web browser has ever been ported. Running primarily parts of the NetBSD userspace. Not so much interest in taking advantage of the modular design to introduce novel features; implicit focus on porting existing BSD packages instead.
_pmf_ 11y ago
2015 will be the year of Hurd on the Desktop
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  For the tone of the comments here, it'll be more the year of the Hurd Virtual Machine.
jheriko 11y ago
wait... its not april 1st? awesome. :)
- ArneBab 11y ago
  Not this time — but 4 years ago it was ☺ → http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news/2011-04-01.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news/2011-04-01.html Times change.
Joeboy 11y ago
Does anybody offer a cheap (like $5 a month cheap) VPS you could run GNU/Hurd on? I am feeling a perverse need to run a website on it. Or maybe that's still a bad idea at this point?
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  Gopher would be less perverse.

I have a snapshot from May 2014 running as a VirtualBox instance. Tried IceWM and a GNU build chain on it. I'll probably update soon, need to find out what open issues have been addressed in 0.6.

christianbryant 11y ago
I just rolled GNU/Hurd 2015 into a VM. It's early, but the first thing I'll note is that I felt for the first time that GNU/Hurd is a deployable OS. Still, I need that 64-bit version... killing me, here!
- mikegioia 11y ago
  Do you have any info or a website you could point me to on how to build the image into a virtualbox VM? Running VBoxManage from their guide [1] isn't working for me. I can create the VDI file but on boot I'm getting an error saying hd0s1 isn't found >_< [1] https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-install https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-install
  - christianbryant 11y ago
    Have you tried qemu/kvm? You also use the pre-rolled here: http://ftp.debian-ports.org/debian-cd/hurd-i386/current/README.txt http://ftp.debian-ports.org/debian-cd/hurd-i386/current/READ...

GuamPirate 11y ago

I'm extremely excited to check this out! I really like the idea of translators, and low and behold when I log in there's a tutorial on them in root's home directory! I might switch to this if the ui is bearable enough.

thomasahle 11y ago
Link: http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/documentation/translator_primer.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/documentation/translat...

fs111 11y ago

I am writing this comment from a modern graphical webbrowser running on an OS with the GNU kernel. Who thought this day would ever come?

stefantalpalaru 11y ago
Bare metal or VM?
- fs111 11y ago
  VirtualBox. I don't have a spare machine lying around, but still cool...
  - Goladus 11y ago
    Relevant question I would say is that even if you did have a spare machine lying around, how well would Hurd support its hardware?
    - christianbryant 11y ago
      It will be interesting to see if the Debian influence will promote the availability of a wide variety of architectures, including the options to load non-free firmware. From the GNU/FSF standpoint, this is at its core a GNU project, and GNU promotes freedom, free software and the rejection of non-free code. If a wide array of hardware support emerges, it will not come from the GNU portion of the project, where only either "freed" hardware (via coreboot, etc) or hardware with open specs is the target. Please note that "hardware" does not mean "system" - likely you can install on any number of systems that include lots of "closed" and unsupported hardware, but where you go from there is up to you... http://www.nongnu.org/thug/gnumach_hardware.html http://www.nongnu.org/thug/gnumach_hardware.html
      - mattl 11y ago
        I don't know how well known it is, but Debian was started when Ian Murdock was an FSF employee.

lessthunk 11y ago

What are your main motivations to use GNU Hurd? Not wanting to troll, fishing for a link for good background reading

christianbryant 11y ago
Advantages: http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/technical-advantages-of-the-hurd.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/t...
- bsaul 11y ago
  Just read the advantages, some parts seem a bit old. Touting object oriented design as something enabling refactoring, whereas the trend for the last fifteen years has been toward interface-oriented design (with golang being the most extreme case). Also, in a world of unikernels and app containers (trending toward the most static and restricted deployment unit possible), having an os being able to change its parts while running seems a bit useless. But, who knows ? maybe we'll see new patterns emerge. That's a fantastic time for people interested in OSes.
  - codeulike 11y ago
    the Hurd has an object-oriented structure that allows it to evolve without compromising its design. This structure will help the Hurd undergo major redesign and modifications without having to be entirely rewritten. Yeah, good luck with that. OO is great but I'm not sure major redesigns are any easier in OO compared to any other arch. Having a completely different OS arch in play does sound good though, perhaps opening up possibilities we havent realised yet. Perhaps someone should re-write that 'advantages' page to encompass the massive changes in Software thinking since it was first written in 2001.
    - noblethrasher 11y ago
      > Yeah, good luck with that. OO is great but I'm not sure major redesigns are any easier in OO compared to any other arch. It depends on what they mean by OO. I can't find a source at the moment, but I've heard of Smalltalk applications that have been running the "same" incrementally modified image[1] since the 1970s or 1980s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persistence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persisten...

breakingcups 11y ago

>Since the last snapshot release coinciding with "wheezy", the init system has been switched to sysvinit for a more Debian-like experience. Hehehe, didn't Debian just switch to systemd with Jessie?

teddyh 11y ago
They changed the default to systemd. Sysvinit is still available.
- 0xFFC 11y ago
  Availability of Sysvinit does not mean you can use it as safe as systemd , there is no requirement for Sysvinit support in debian package's anymore , so if you want use Sysvinit then you maybe encounter some package which does not work on debian.
e12e 11y ago
Debian/kFreeBSD also cannot run systemd -- it's been designed for Linux, rather than for portability.

kriro 11y ago

Very nice. I'll check it out when I get home. Certainly had this filed as "it might never happen" and haven't checked on the progress in quite some time. I hope someone will build an OS course around it eventually. Seems pretty good for teaching purposes. Congratulations to everyone involved.

pedrow 11y ago

I wanted to look at the source code. Just to save anyone else the time to find it, the link is: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/hurd.git/tree/?id=v0.6 http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/hurd.git/tree/?id=v0.6

satuon 11y ago
Why Savannah (in savannah.gnu.org I mean)?
- detaro 11y ago
  Gnus live in the Savannah?
- reitanqild 11y ago
  Edit: ninjaed by detaro

tormeh 11y ago

What are the advantages vs. Minix 3?

mreiland 11y ago
how far along is Minix 3?
- mreiland 11y ago
  if there's one thing I never expected it was to be downvoted for asking a legitimate question.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Sounds similar to hurd. 32bit only, graphical ui, bsd applications. Theoretically usable as a daily driver.
  - carussell 11y ago
    > graphical ui Not currently. > Theoretically usable as a daily driver. Not likely.
kasabali 11y ago
Minix 3 doesn't have Debian userspace :)
- xai3luGi 11y ago
  It did back in 2011, at least on one Debian developer's computer: http://www.braincells.com/debian/index.cgi/search/item=270 http://www.braincells.com/debian/index.cgi/search/item=270
carussell 11y ago
Hurd is based on Mach and available for x86 only. You can run X11 and Debian packages. Drivers for Linux have been ported. Debian/Hurd re-uses some of the Debian community infrastructure for development. Has a goal ("viable for everyday use, and gives users and programs as much control over their computing environment as possible"). The focus yields things at the intersection of research/pragmatic use (e.g., introducing novel features like translators). Minix is less mature from a community standpoint and its development processes. It's developed and run by about half a dozen contributors (generous estimate). Mostly students. Lacks leadership. It runs on x86 and arm. The microkernel design is its own. It's been possible to run X on past versions, but despite other comments, X11 is not actually usable on the latest release (3.3.0, released 2014 September). No (graphical) web browser has ever been ported. Running primarily parts of the NetBSD userspace. Not so much interest in taking advantage of the modular design to introduce novel features; implicit focus on porting existing BSD packages instead.

_pmf_ 11y ago

2015 will be the year of Hurd on the Desktop

marcosdumay 11y ago
For the tone of the comments here, it'll be more the year of the Hurd Virtual Machine.

jheriko 11y ago

wait... its not april 1st? awesome. :)

ArneBab 11y ago
Not this time — but 4 years ago it was ☺ → http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news/2011-04-01.html http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news/2011-04-01.html Times change.

Joeboy 11y ago

Does anybody offer a cheap (like $5 a month cheap) VPS you could run GNU/Hurd on? I am feeling a perverse need to run a website on it. Or maybe that's still a bad idea at this point?

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
Gopher would be less perverse.