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You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I know you can't be there 100% of the time, but you've got to make some effo

You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I know you can't be there 100% of the time, but you've got to make some effort and stand up for yourself. Take a pay cut, do less hours. I loved the book Red Mars in which children were quite uncommon, so whenever a child was about all the adults would pay them lots of attention. This included bosses.

sjwright 12y ago
Just make sure you don't go too far in the other direction and become a helicopter parent. Children also need some disinterest and neglect occasionally.
dagw 12y ago
You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. Some people rationalize it with that making sure their kid lives in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, goes to a great school, has access to all the latest gadgets and gets to to travel the world is the best thing they can do for their kids. And if the cost is that they have to work 14 hour days and hardly ever see their kids then that is a sacrifice they're willing to step up and make. No saying I agree, but I can certainly see how you could convince yourself that working an 80 hour week is you doing the best thing for your kids and family. Furthermore while I agree with (having done so myself) saying "Take a pay cut, do less hours.", it is only easy when you are already essentially rich. If "take a pay cut" meant I would have to move my family into a tiny apartment in the shitty part of town I probably wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude about it.
- JimmyM 12y ago
  There is also the fact that for some careers there is no intermediate state between success and failure -- no "not being promoted", only continual success or a lack of a job (recruiting and finance spring to mind). In those careers where there is in fact an intermediate state, it can feel as though it is very narrow and difficult to stay in. While the parent getting more pay may not really be important to a child, their long-term job security could prove to be essential.
- pestaa 12y ago
  We're not poor or anything, but I've never met a family that could choose to work less. It doesn't take 80 hours every week, but when they call you on Saturday (or even Sunday), there is no choice. I live in Middle Europe.
  - castell 12y ago
    Which country? The central Europe countries that I know (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.) and western-Europe coutries (France, Great Britain, etc.), there is a choice and most don't work on Saturday or even Sunday (except for certain jobs like DevOps/Admins, restaurants/hotels, factory workers with shifts, etc.). But in some of these countries you also cannot go shopping during the night (shops are only opened from about 9 am to 7 pm) nor on Sunday. You are not allowed to work more than specific hours per week. And even doctors with shifts that last more than 8 hours have several scheduled sleep hours.
    - pestaa 12y ago
      Hungary. I know life is different in the countries you mentioned -- lots of people flee from here to Germany and the UK.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Middle Europe sounds like non Western europe? I live there-ish too, and it depends on the country.
    - Thimothy 12y ago
      My guess is Poland. All the poles I've met are quite ticky about being call "Eastern Europe".
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    When I worked in an office in the UK flexitime was very common, and seems much more so. Many people would balance work and life by doing 4 long days and then taking a 3 day weekend. Some would build up flexi credit to take extra weeks of holiday. Provided you were working effectively then great flexibility was allowed, flexi priveleges could be removed for under performance (well below average). My wife and I chose to work less by starting our own business so we could spend lots of time with our kids when they were pre-schoolers. It's kinda backfiring a bit now. We are most definitely poor financially.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
jemfinch 12y ago
> You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. I'm glad they're playing, and I'm glad they're learning important life skills like following directions, understanding rules, and especially some physical prowess, but four innings is just numbing, especially when I'm also chasing around/entertaining my toddler at the same time. Help with homework? Sure. Answer questions, all day long? Hell yeah I'll do that. Teach the oldest to play "Tower of Guns" to introduce him to using the mouse and keyboard? Yup, happy to help. But T-ball practice? God, only if I must. Cub scout meetings don't sound any better. But you know what? That's perfectly fine. That's why we have coaches. There are also a number of other dads who are interested in T-ball and help out at practices and games. Not every parent has to be interested in every thing their kid does all the time: it's actually healthy for kids to encounter adults in roles other than "parent" and "teacher".
- coldtea 12y ago
  >I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. We always cringe in Europe about this thing in American movies/series, where its "so" important for the kid to have the parents be there for their school performance or game, especially when said kid is 12 or 15 or so. In real life (at least here) most kids at that age would be enbarassed to be seen with their parents. Sure, they like for parents to be there for some of the important stuff, but not most BS school functions or game practice.
  - atom-morgan 12y ago
    That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Does that only extend to the age group you mentioned (>12)?
    - coldtea 12y ago
danieltillett 12y ago
I have twice taken pay cuts so that I could be there for my kids and have given up on businesses so I could be there for them. I have always been of the belief that nobody on their death bed ever says "I wish I had spent more time at work".
- loup-vaillant 12y ago
  I have heard that one of the most common death bed saying is actually "I wish I had worked less".
  - ux-app 12y ago
    heh.. well that sure wont be one of my regrets :)
- jl6 12y ago
  Without wishing to detract from your point, people also frequently (on their death bed or otherwise) wish they had achieved more in their life - which might imply they wished they had worked more.
  - danieltillett 12y ago
    This is true, but I have yet to speak to anyone old who felt that it was lack of time at work that was the limiting factor in them achieving more in their lives. I should add that I am not suggesting that everyone should follow my example since it is really for everyone to decide how their life is best lived. I know I have not been able to acheive even a fraction of what I have wanted to do in my life, but I don't regret the choices I have had to make. There is only 24 hours a day for every person.
- conradfr 12y ago
  http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five...
  - 12y ago
rayiner 12y ago
You have to be there for your kid, but your kids don't really need you at those arbitrary functions. That's make-work for parents. My dad used to travel overseas 3-5 months out of the year when I was a kid. I've never given a second thought to what school functions he missed--because they were stupid and inconsequential.
- hvidgaard 12y ago
  I wasn't thinking of weekly game practice or something like it. No, I was thinking of those Sundays where you do something with your child, the parent/child time where you talk to your children and do stuff. If you often work in the weekend, when exactly would you spend time with your child?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Plenty of normal people in not-especially-demanding jobs work on weekends. It's a normal thing. My butcher started his shop because he felt like the demands of the restaurant he ran were making it hard to have a family. He works every weekend; in fact, I think he may only take Tuesdays off. Lots of private practice doctors and dentists have days off in the middle of the week so they can see patients on Saturday. We don't generally think of dentists as people who are worked so hard they can't spend time with their kids.
    - kasey_junk 12y ago
      Banks are open on Saturdays...
jgoewert 12y ago
>>Take a pay cut, do less hours. So, you should take a pay cut to work the agreed upon 40 hours salary? I don't see why not working unpaid overtime means you should get paid less to not work it.

sjwright 12y ago

Just make sure you don't go too far in the other direction and become a helicopter parent. Children also need some disinterest and neglect occasionally.

dagw 12y ago

You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. Some people rationalize it with that making sure their kid lives in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, goes to a great school, has access to all the latest gadgets and gets to to travel the world is the best thing they can do for their kids. And if the cost is that they have to work 14 hour days and hardly ever see their kids then that is a sacrifice they're willing to step up and make. No saying I agree, but I can certainly see how you could convince yourself that working an 80 hour week is you doing the best thing for your kids and family. Furthermore while I agree with (having done so myself) saying "Take a pay cut, do less hours.", it is only easy when you are already essentially rich. If "take a pay cut" meant I would have to move my family into a tiny apartment in the shitty part of town I probably wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude about it.

JimmyM 12y ago
There is also the fact that for some careers there is no intermediate state between success and failure -- no "not being promoted", only continual success or a lack of a job (recruiting and finance spring to mind). In those careers where there is in fact an intermediate state, it can feel as though it is very narrow and difficult to stay in. While the parent getting more pay may not really be important to a child, their long-term job security could prove to be essential.
pestaa 12y ago
We're not poor or anything, but I've never met a family that could choose to work less. It doesn't take 80 hours every week, but when they call you on Saturday (or even Sunday), there is no choice. I live in Middle Europe.
- castell 12y ago
  Which country? The central Europe countries that I know (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.) and western-Europe coutries (France, Great Britain, etc.), there is a choice and most don't work on Saturday or even Sunday (except for certain jobs like DevOps/Admins, restaurants/hotels, factory workers with shifts, etc.). But in some of these countries you also cannot go shopping during the night (shops are only opened from about 9 am to 7 pm) nor on Sunday. You are not allowed to work more than specific hours per week. And even doctors with shifts that last more than 8 hours have several scheduled sleep hours.
  - pestaa 12y ago
    Hungary. I know life is different in the countries you mentioned -- lots of people flee from here to Germany and the UK.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Middle Europe sounds like non Western europe? I live there-ish too, and it depends on the country.
  - Thimothy 12y ago
    My guess is Poland. All the poles I've met are quite ticky about being call "Eastern Europe".
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  When I worked in an office in the UK flexitime was very common, and seems much more so. Many people would balance work and life by doing 4 long days and then taking a 3 day weekend. Some would build up flexi credit to take extra weeks of holiday. Provided you were working effectively then great flexibility was allowed, flexi priveleges could be removed for under performance (well below average). My wife and I chose to work less by starting our own business so we could spend lots of time with our kids when they were pre-schoolers. It's kinda backfiring a bit now. We are most definitely poor financially.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

jemfinch 12y ago

> You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. I'm glad they're playing, and I'm glad they're learning important life skills like following directions, understanding rules, and especially some physical prowess, but four innings is just numbing, especially when I'm also chasing around/entertaining my toddler at the same time. Help with homework? Sure. Answer questions, all day long? Hell yeah I'll do that. Teach the oldest to play "Tower of Guns" to introduce him to using the mouse and keyboard? Yup, happy to help. But T-ball practice? God, only if I must. Cub scout meetings don't sound any better. But you know what? That's perfectly fine. That's why we have coaches. There are also a number of other dads who are interested in T-ball and help out at practices and games. Not every parent has to be interested in every thing their kid does all the time: it's actually healthy for kids to encounter adults in roles other than "parent" and "teacher".

coldtea 12y ago
>I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. We always cringe in Europe about this thing in American movies/series, where its "so" important for the kid to have the parents be there for their school performance or game, especially when said kid is 12 or 15 or so. In real life (at least here) most kids at that age would be enbarassed to be seen with their parents. Sure, they like for parents to be there for some of the important stuff, but not most BS school functions or game practice.
- atom-morgan 12y ago
  That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Does that only extend to the age group you mentioned (>12)?
  - coldtea 12y ago

danieltillett 12y ago

I have twice taken pay cuts so that I could be there for my kids and have given up on businesses so I could be there for them. I have always been of the belief that nobody on their death bed ever says "I wish I had spent more time at work".

loup-vaillant 12y ago
I have heard that one of the most common death bed saying is actually "I wish I had worked less".
- ux-app 12y ago
  heh.. well that sure wont be one of my regrets :)
jl6 12y ago
Without wishing to detract from your point, people also frequently (on their death bed or otherwise) wish they had achieved more in their life - which might imply they wished they had worked more.
- danieltillett 12y ago
  This is true, but I have yet to speak to anyone old who felt that it was lack of time at work that was the limiting factor in them achieving more in their lives. I should add that I am not suggesting that everyone should follow my example since it is really for everyone to decide how their life is best lived. I know I have not been able to acheive even a fraction of what I have wanted to do in my life, but I don't regret the choices I have had to make. There is only 24 hours a day for every person.
conradfr 12y ago
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five...
- 12y ago

rayiner 12y ago

You have to be there for your kid, but your kids don't really need you at those arbitrary functions. That's make-work for parents. My dad used to travel overseas 3-5 months out of the year when I was a kid. I've never given a second thought to what school functions he missed--because they were stupid and inconsequential.

hvidgaard 12y ago
I wasn't thinking of weekly game practice or something like it. No, I was thinking of those Sundays where you do something with your child, the parent/child time where you talk to your children and do stuff. If you often work in the weekend, when exactly would you spend time with your child?
- tptacek 12y ago
  Plenty of normal people in not-especially-demanding jobs work on weekends. It's a normal thing. My butcher started his shop because he felt like the demands of the restaurant he ran were making it hard to have a family. He works every weekend; in fact, I think he may only take Tuesdays off. Lots of private practice doctors and dentists have days off in the middle of the week so they can see patients on Saturday. We don't generally think of dentists as people who are worked so hard they can't spend time with their kids.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    Banks are open on Saturdays...

jgoewert 12y ago

>>Take a pay cut, do less hours. So, you should take a pay cut to work the agreed upon 40 hours salary? I don't see why not working unpaid overtime means you should get paid less to not work it.