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When I read this > You know it’s tough to say I can’t be there because my son had a Cub Scout meeting. I felt a sharp disdain for the managers. Seriously, chi

When I read this > You know it’s tough to say I can’t be there because my son had a Cub Scout meeting. I felt a sharp disdain for the managers. Seriously, children growing up is a onetime thing.It's fucked up beyond reason that people accept this, and I'd gladly take a lower paying job so I can be there.

monk_e_boy 12y ago
You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I know you can't be there 100% of the time, but you've got to make some effort and stand up for yourself. Take a pay cut, do less hours. I loved the book Red Mars in which children were quite uncommon, so whenever a child was about all the adults would pay them lots of attention. This included bosses.
- sjwright 12y ago
  Just make sure you don't go too far in the other direction and become a helicopter parent. Children also need some disinterest and neglect occasionally.
- dagw 12y ago
  You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. Some people rationalize it with that making sure their kid lives in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, goes to a great school, has access to all the latest gadgets and gets to to travel the world is the best thing they can do for their kids. And if the cost is that they have to work 14 hour days and hardly ever see their kids then that is a sacrifice they're willing to step up and make. No saying I agree, but I can certainly see how you could convince yourself that working an 80 hour week is you doing the best thing for your kids and family. Furthermore while I agree with (having done so myself) saying "Take a pay cut, do less hours.", it is only easy when you are already essentially rich. If "take a pay cut" meant I would have to move my family into a tiny apartment in the shitty part of town I probably wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude about it.
  - JimmyM 12y ago
    There is also the fact that for some careers there is no intermediate state between success and failure -- no "not being promoted", only continual success or a lack of a job (recruiting and finance spring to mind). In those careers where there is in fact an intermediate state, it can feel as though it is very narrow and difficult to stay in. While the parent getting more pay may not really be important to a child, their long-term job security could prove to be essential.
  - pestaa 12y ago
    We're not poor or anything, but I've never met a family that could choose to work less. It doesn't take 80 hours every week, but when they call you on Saturday (or even Sunday), there is no choice. I live in Middle Europe.
    - castell 12y ago
      Which country? The central Europe countries that I know (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.) and western-Europe coutries (France, Great Britain, etc.), there is a choice and most don't work on Saturday or even Sunday (except for certain jobs like DevOps/Admins, restaurants/hotels, factory workers with shifts, etc.). But in some of these countries you also cannot go shopping during the night (shops are only opened from about 9 am to 7 pm) nor on Sunday. You are not allowed to work more than specific hours per week. And even doctors with shifts that last more than 8 hours have several scheduled sleep hours.
      - pestaa 12y ago
        Hungary. I know life is different in the countries you mentioned -- lots of people flee from here to Germany and the UK.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Middle Europe sounds like non Western europe? I live there-ish too, and it depends on the country.
- jemfinch 12y ago
  > You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. I'm glad they're playing, and I'm glad they're learning important life skills like following directions, understanding rules, and especially some physical prowess, but four innings is just numbing, especially when I'm also chasing around/entertaining my toddler at the same time. Help with homework? Sure. Answer questions, all day long? Hell yeah I'll do that. Teach the oldest to play "Tower of Guns" to introduce him to using the mouse and keyboard? Yup, happy to help. But T-ball practice? God, only if I must. Cub scout meetings don't sound any better. But you know what? That's perfectly fine. That's why we have coaches. There are also a number of other dads who are interested in T-ball and help out at practices and games. Not every parent has to be interested in every thing their kid does all the time: it's actually healthy for kids to encounter adults in roles other than "parent" and "teacher".
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. We always cringe in Europe about this thing in American movies/series, where its "so" important for the kid to have the parents be there for their school performance or game, especially when said kid is 12 or 15 or so. In real life (at least here) most kids at that age would be enbarassed to be seen with their parents. Sure, they like for parents to be there for some of the important stuff, but not most BS school functions or game practice.
    - atom-morgan 12y ago
      That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Does that only extend to the age group you mentioned (>12)?
      - coldtea 12y ago
- danieltillett 12y ago
  I have twice taken pay cuts so that I could be there for my kids and have given up on businesses so I could be there for them. I have always been of the belief that nobody on their death bed ever says "I wish I had spent more time at work".
  - loup-vaillant 12y ago
    I have heard that one of the most common death bed saying is actually "I wish I had worked less".
    - ux-app 12y ago
      heh.. well that sure wont be one of my regrets :)
  - jl6 12y ago
    Without wishing to detract from your point, people also frequently (on their death bed or otherwise) wish they had achieved more in their life - which might imply they wished they had worked more.
    - danieltillett 12y ago
      This is true, but I have yet to speak to anyone old who felt that it was lack of time at work that was the limiting factor in them achieving more in their lives. I should add that I am not suggesting that everyone should follow my example since it is really for everyone to decide how their life is best lived. I know I have not been able to acheive even a fraction of what I have wanted to do in my life, but I don't regret the choices I have had to make. There is only 24 hours a day for every person.
  - conradfr 12y ago
    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five...
    - 12y ago
- rayiner 12y ago
  You have to be there for your kid, but your kids don't really need you at those arbitrary functions. That's make-work for parents. My dad used to travel overseas 3-5 months out of the year when I was a kid. I've never given a second thought to what school functions he missed--because they were stupid and inconsequential.
  - hvidgaard 12y ago
    I wasn't thinking of weekly game practice or something like it. No, I was thinking of those Sundays where you do something with your child, the parent/child time where you talk to your children and do stuff. If you often work in the weekend, when exactly would you spend time with your child?
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Plenty of normal people in not-especially-demanding jobs work on weekends. It's a normal thing. My butcher started his shop because he felt like the demands of the restaurant he ran were making it hard to have a family. He works every weekend; in fact, I think he may only take Tuesdays off. Lots of private practice doctors and dentists have days off in the middle of the week so they can see patients on Saturday. We don't generally think of dentists as people who are worked so hard they can't spend time with their kids.
      - kasey_junk 12y ago
        Banks are open on Saturdays...
- jgoewert 12y ago
  >>Take a pay cut, do less hours. So, you should take a pay cut to work the agreed upon 40 hours salary? I don't see why not working unpaid overtime means you should get paid less to not work it.
draven 12y ago
Better to be a regular employee and a great dad/mom than a "superhero" and a shitty parent.
- rev_bird 12y ago
  The issue in a lot of cases seems to be that there is no "regular employee": workers are expected to put in the extra time ("effort"), or they're instantly sub-par.
  - draven 12y ago
    And if it is expected of everyone, then they are not "superheroes" (exceptional individuals) anymore, only regular employees, and the regular ones (those who have a life outside work) are pushed down to the mediocre employee category. I also hate when HR people or bosses equate the time spent being at work with effort (and let's not talk about efficiency or work output quality.) Being a great parent while working 40 or even 50 hours a week is still a remarquable achievement.
Ntrails 12y ago
I was at a training seminar where they were trying to go through the ethical dilemma of a manager who had two employees wanting to go home on time (one for spousal medical issue, one for child based commitment) and asking how to decide which one is allowed to leave. I went a little apeshit at the premise itself, and indeed at the training company for re-enforcing the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. Yesterday my manager asked me what I was doing this evening, and whether I could cover a release in terms of support. As it happens, I can. If I had plans of any kind my answer would have been "Sorry, nope. I've got plans so need to be out of the office by xx:xx".
- yodsanklai 12y ago
  > ... the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. I hate this idea too. I'm lucky to be able to organize my work as I want to (working in academia). Asking a permission for such a thing sounds so wrong. However, this freedom comes with a price. I earn much less than most of my friends with the same education level and I have to admit that I suffer (a little) to have a lesser social status and little recognition. In the end, it's a matter of compromise.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    I disagree that compromise is necessary. I've found that one merely needs to avoid any organization that routinely hires MBAs and HR directors as a good litmus test for whether or not the place will try to grind me down. That can be hard to do in software development, especially if you end up getting stuck in consulting[1]. Hence why I freelance now. I work 20 hours a week and I gross more than I ever did working for The Man. People always tell me, "Oh, I could never do that, I like knowing I have a regular job," but they don't realize that A) they could get fired at any minute just because their boss doesn't like them, and B) I've had the same client for the last 3 years, which is longer than I've stayed at any job I've ever had before. As long as you're working for someone else, as long as you aren't making the actual profit off of your work, your work will always be treated as a cost center, rather than an income center. You will never be paid the full value of your work, because there would be no point to paying someone to do the work if there were no profit in it for the employer. Ultimately, I'd like to get out of freelancing, but for now, at least freelancing lets me demand a higher portion of the margin. I've found it also seems to set me in a position of being a peer to my client (we are both business men) rather than a subordinate. It's a small difference that makes all the difference. [1] It's incredibly hard to transition from a job in consulting to a job in a product-based software company. I think it's mostly that there are so few of the latter compared to the former, but I suspect the latter looks askew at people with a history at the former as well.
moron4hire 12y ago
The great thing is, you don't have to take a lower paying job. I started freelancing three years ago and have made more than I've ever made in my career, and I only work 20 hours a week.
- rev_bird 12y ago
  I assume your username is also your business name? Wish I'd have thought of it first, it would have fit perfectly.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    Heh, no, I just go by my real name. Well, I'm sort of in the process of merging my consulting business with a partner, but that's mostly just an organizational thing. The "moron4hire" handle is older than my freelancing and was meant to be a daily reminder to myself to be humble.
coldtea 12y ago
>Seriously, children growing up is a onetime thing. Sure, but it's a onetime thing that takes 15+ years.
- hvidgaard 12y ago
  Children goes through multiple phases, where they're learning and their personality emerges. It's not as simple as saying it's 15+ years, you can catch up in the last 3.
  - M8 12y ago
    It doesn't have to be about children, every person goes through different stages in a period of any 15 years. Single people deserve same (good) treatment as married.
ohitsdom 12y ago
I work a pretty standard 40 hour work week in an office, and even that makes me feel like a distant father sometimes. Love my kids, hate seeing them only 2 hours a day before they go to bed (they're still very young).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
atom-morgan 12y ago
Immediately after graduating from college, I always felt bad seeing parents who were sacrificing time with their kids to put in extra hours even if the hours weren't necessary. Late night calls to "catch up" when we easily could have waited until the morning. I just turned 25 and I've worked a few jobs where pretending to work was the norm. It was a drag on me and I was single and in my early twenties. I couldn't imagine doing that while having kids at home as well. At the same time, this ended up being one of my biggest motivators when it comes to my career. I don't want to end up in that position, ever. If I start a company, I don't want to be that manager. It sucked but it was also a great learning experience so that I know what to avoid in life.

monk_e_boy 12y ago

You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I know you can't be there 100% of the time, but you've got to make some effort and stand up for yourself. Take a pay cut, do less hours. I loved the book Red Mars in which children were quite uncommon, so whenever a child was about all the adults would pay them lots of attention. This included bosses.

sjwright 12y ago
Just make sure you don't go too far in the other direction and become a helicopter parent. Children also need some disinterest and neglect occasionally.
dagw 12y ago
You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. Some people rationalize it with that making sure their kid lives in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, goes to a great school, has access to all the latest gadgets and gets to to travel the world is the best thing they can do for their kids. And if the cost is that they have to work 14 hour days and hardly ever see their kids then that is a sacrifice they're willing to step up and make. No saying I agree, but I can certainly see how you could convince yourself that working an 80 hour week is you doing the best thing for your kids and family. Furthermore while I agree with (having done so myself) saying "Take a pay cut, do less hours.", it is only easy when you are already essentially rich. If "take a pay cut" meant I would have to move my family into a tiny apartment in the shitty part of town I probably wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude about it.
- JimmyM 12y ago
  There is also the fact that for some careers there is no intermediate state between success and failure -- no "not being promoted", only continual success or a lack of a job (recruiting and finance spring to mind). In those careers where there is in fact an intermediate state, it can feel as though it is very narrow and difficult to stay in. While the parent getting more pay may not really be important to a child, their long-term job security could prove to be essential.
- pestaa 12y ago
  We're not poor or anything, but I've never met a family that could choose to work less. It doesn't take 80 hours every week, but when they call you on Saturday (or even Sunday), there is no choice. I live in Middle Europe.
  - castell 12y ago
    Which country? The central Europe countries that I know (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.) and western-Europe coutries (France, Great Britain, etc.), there is a choice and most don't work on Saturday or even Sunday (except for certain jobs like DevOps/Admins, restaurants/hotels, factory workers with shifts, etc.). But in some of these countries you also cannot go shopping during the night (shops are only opened from about 9 am to 7 pm) nor on Sunday. You are not allowed to work more than specific hours per week. And even doctors with shifts that last more than 8 hours have several scheduled sleep hours.
    - pestaa 12y ago
      Hungary. I know life is different in the countries you mentioned -- lots of people flee from here to Germany and the UK.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Middle Europe sounds like non Western europe? I live there-ish too, and it depends on the country.
jemfinch 12y ago
> You have to wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn't be there for their kid. I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. I'm glad they're playing, and I'm glad they're learning important life skills like following directions, understanding rules, and especially some physical prowess, but four innings is just numbing, especially when I'm also chasing around/entertaining my toddler at the same time. Help with homework? Sure. Answer questions, all day long? Hell yeah I'll do that. Teach the oldest to play "Tower of Guns" to introduce him to using the mouse and keyboard? Yup, happy to help. But T-ball practice? God, only if I must. Cub scout meetings don't sound any better. But you know what? That's perfectly fine. That's why we have coaches. There are also a number of other dads who are interested in T-ball and help out at practices and games. Not every parent has to be interested in every thing their kid does all the time: it's actually healthy for kids to encounter adults in roles other than "parent" and "teacher".
- coldtea 12y ago
  >I have three boys (5, 4, 1) and another baby on the way. I'll tell you: some of the crap these kids do is freaking boring. Seriously. The older two are in T-ball now, and the practices and games are just mind bogglingly uninteresting. We always cringe in Europe about this thing in American movies/series, where its "so" important for the kid to have the parents be there for their school performance or game, especially when said kid is 12 or 15 or so. In real life (at least here) most kids at that age would be enbarassed to be seen with their parents. Sure, they like for parents to be there for some of the important stuff, but not most BS school functions or game practice.
  - atom-morgan 12y ago
    That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Does that only extend to the age group you mentioned (>12)?
    - coldtea 12y ago
danieltillett 12y ago
I have twice taken pay cuts so that I could be there for my kids and have given up on businesses so I could be there for them. I have always been of the belief that nobody on their death bed ever says "I wish I had spent more time at work".
- loup-vaillant 12y ago
  I have heard that one of the most common death bed saying is actually "I wish I had worked less".
  - ux-app 12y ago
    heh.. well that sure wont be one of my regrets :)
- jl6 12y ago
  Without wishing to detract from your point, people also frequently (on their death bed or otherwise) wish they had achieved more in their life - which might imply they wished they had worked more.
  - danieltillett 12y ago
    This is true, but I have yet to speak to anyone old who felt that it was lack of time at work that was the limiting factor in them achieving more in their lives. I should add that I am not suggesting that everyone should follow my example since it is really for everyone to decide how their life is best lived. I know I have not been able to acheive even a fraction of what I have wanted to do in my life, but I don't regret the choices I have had to make. There is only 24 hours a day for every person.
- conradfr 12y ago
  http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five...
  - 12y ago
rayiner 12y ago
You have to be there for your kid, but your kids don't really need you at those arbitrary functions. That's make-work for parents. My dad used to travel overseas 3-5 months out of the year when I was a kid. I've never given a second thought to what school functions he missed--because they were stupid and inconsequential.
- hvidgaard 12y ago
  I wasn't thinking of weekly game practice or something like it. No, I was thinking of those Sundays where you do something with your child, the parent/child time where you talk to your children and do stuff. If you often work in the weekend, when exactly would you spend time with your child?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Plenty of normal people in not-especially-demanding jobs work on weekends. It's a normal thing. My butcher started his shop because he felt like the demands of the restaurant he ran were making it hard to have a family. He works every weekend; in fact, I think he may only take Tuesdays off. Lots of private practice doctors and dentists have days off in the middle of the week so they can see patients on Saturday. We don't generally think of dentists as people who are worked so hard they can't spend time with their kids.
    - kasey_junk 12y ago
      Banks are open on Saturdays...
jgoewert 12y ago
>>Take a pay cut, do less hours. So, you should take a pay cut to work the agreed upon 40 hours salary? I don't see why not working unpaid overtime means you should get paid less to not work it.

draven 12y ago

Better to be a regular employee and a great dad/mom than a "superhero" and a shitty parent.

rev_bird 12y ago
The issue in a lot of cases seems to be that there is no "regular employee": workers are expected to put in the extra time ("effort"), or they're instantly sub-par.
- draven 12y ago
  And if it is expected of everyone, then they are not "superheroes" (exceptional individuals) anymore, only regular employees, and the regular ones (those who have a life outside work) are pushed down to the mediocre employee category. I also hate when HR people or bosses equate the time spent being at work with effort (and let's not talk about efficiency or work output quality.) Being a great parent while working 40 or even 50 hours a week is still a remarquable achievement.

Ntrails 12y ago

I was at a training seminar where they were trying to go through the ethical dilemma of a manager who had two employees wanting to go home on time (one for spousal medical issue, one for child based commitment) and asking how to decide which one is allowed to leave. I went a little apeshit at the premise itself, and indeed at the training company for re-enforcing the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. Yesterday my manager asked me what I was doing this evening, and whether I could cover a release in terms of support. As it happens, I can. If I had plans of any kind my answer would have been "Sorry, nope. I've got plans so need to be out of the office by xx:xx".

yodsanklai 12y ago
> ... the idea you need permission to leave at 5pm. I hate this idea too. I'm lucky to be able to organize my work as I want to (working in academia). Asking a permission for such a thing sounds so wrong. However, this freedom comes with a price. I earn much less than most of my friends with the same education level and I have to admit that I suffer (a little) to have a lesser social status and little recognition. In the end, it's a matter of compromise.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  I disagree that compromise is necessary. I've found that one merely needs to avoid any organization that routinely hires MBAs and HR directors as a good litmus test for whether or not the place will try to grind me down. That can be hard to do in software development, especially if you end up getting stuck in consulting[1]. Hence why I freelance now. I work 20 hours a week and I gross more than I ever did working for The Man. People always tell me, "Oh, I could never do that, I like knowing I have a regular job," but they don't realize that A) they could get fired at any minute just because their boss doesn't like them, and B) I've had the same client for the last 3 years, which is longer than I've stayed at any job I've ever had before. As long as you're working for someone else, as long as you aren't making the actual profit off of your work, your work will always be treated as a cost center, rather than an income center. You will never be paid the full value of your work, because there would be no point to paying someone to do the work if there were no profit in it for the employer. Ultimately, I'd like to get out of freelancing, but for now, at least freelancing lets me demand a higher portion of the margin. I've found it also seems to set me in a position of being a peer to my client (we are both business men) rather than a subordinate. It's a small difference that makes all the difference. [1] It's incredibly hard to transition from a job in consulting to a job in a product-based software company. I think it's mostly that there are so few of the latter compared to the former, but I suspect the latter looks askew at people with a history at the former as well.

moron4hire 12y ago

The great thing is, you don't have to take a lower paying job. I started freelancing three years ago and have made more than I've ever made in my career, and I only work 20 hours a week.

rev_bird 12y ago
I assume your username is also your business name? Wish I'd have thought of it first, it would have fit perfectly.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  Heh, no, I just go by my real name. Well, I'm sort of in the process of merging my consulting business with a partner, but that's mostly just an organizational thing. The "moron4hire" handle is older than my freelancing and was meant to be a daily reminder to myself to be humble.

coldtea 12y ago

>Seriously, children growing up is a onetime thing. Sure, but it's a onetime thing that takes 15+ years.

hvidgaard 12y ago
Children goes through multiple phases, where they're learning and their personality emerges. It's not as simple as saying it's 15+ years, you can catch up in the last 3.
- M8 12y ago
  It doesn't have to be about children, every person goes through different stages in a period of any 15 years. Single people deserve same (good) treatment as married.

ohitsdom 12y ago

I work a pretty standard 40 hour work week in an office, and even that makes me feel like a distant father sometimes. Love my kids, hate seeing them only 2 hours a day before they go to bed (they're still very young).

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

atom-morgan 12y ago

Immediately after graduating from college, I always felt bad seeing parents who were sacrificing time with their kids to put in extra hours even if the hours weren't necessary. Late night calls to "catch up" when we easily could have waited until the morning. I just turned 25 and I've worked a few jobs where pretending to work was the norm. It was a drag on me and I was single and in my early twenties. I couldn't imagine doing that while having kids at home as well. At the same time, this ended up being one of my biggest motivators when it comes to my career. I don't want to end up in that position, ever. If I start a company, I don't want to be that manager. It sucked but it was also a great learning experience so that I know what to avoid in life.