6 ms·

This quantity is absolutely nothing. Area of the single forestry, let's say in small Latvia is around 30 000 ha. 1Bn, I assume, is EU milliard. So, drones can p

This quantity is absolutely nothing. Area of the single forestry, let's say in small Latvia is around 30 000 ha. 1Bn, I assume, is EU milliard. So, drones can plant, say pine seedlings with density of 4 thousand/ha (which is IMHO insufficient), which gives capacity of just 9 ha/day! I can't see anything industrial in that. Chinese mainland reforestation programme plan was 4 mln ha/year 20 years ago. Belarusian Soviet reforestation bot PLA-1 (Designed in Homel) was able to make 12-24 thousand plantings per hour in ... 1977! What is good in aerial drones - you do not need to remove tree stumps. Makes the whole operation real safer and cheaper. But its capacity is still vary far from industrial requirements in reforestation. Disclaimer: I majored in Forest Mensuration, and did my engineering diploma in Forest Plantations.

thenomad 12y ago
I agree - I think most of the numbers in the article don't really explain why this is so interesting. To me, this is the key part of the proposal, if the technique scales: "at around 15% of the cost of traditional methods."
- ommunist 12y ago
  Cost comparisons are tricky. Planting hevea plantation in mountain areas of Malaysia is one thing, planting oaks in Kazakhstan is another.
noselasd 12y ago
Given the claim of 36k trees per 2 human operators, at 15% cost of existing methods, isn't the idea to use more operators(and drones) to provide the scale ? Why would that not match industrial capacity ? I'd also be interrested in how these drones fare in different geography, I've manually planted a handful tens of thousands of trees in areas where you can't drive any vehicles - quite different from the rather large flat areas of Russia and Belarus.
- ommunist 12y ago
  PLA-1, 2 human operators, 12-24K trees per hour. Any Kenyan or Brazilian small forge can make PLA-1 bot. You just supply plastic cassettes with saplings. Besides, saplings are far superior in survivaal rates than seedlings. I also manually planted lots of trees in different areas. Yes, you are right, when area is inaccessible and only manual planting is possible - drones may become helpful. But with 9 ha/day output, I am afraid it is cheaper to use human labour.
  - classicsnoot 12y ago
    links or gtfo. jk, but seriously, are their links to studies and pictures? 12k saplings, in my mind, take up a lot of space.
    - stouset 12y ago
      Why just picture it in your mind, and not spend the trivial effort to actually work it out? It's a square with 110 trees to a side. A rough overestimate at 20ft spacing gives us a guess of less than a quarter of a square mile per day, or maybe 75 square miles of saplings planted per year. For comparison, the U.S. has something on the order of 3-3/4 million square miles of forest.
      - hngiszmo 12y ago
        seriously, he throws around terms that bring up video games on google but no "planting bots" from 1970.
        ommunist 12y ago
        May I draw your attention that Google was made a little bit later, and the Internet too.
        classicsnoot 12y ago
        i am having a hard time believing you are serious. are you actually saying that reason their are no pictures is because your possibly fantastical tree tractor was made in the 70s and google was made in the 90s? https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=canterbury+tales&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=can... https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=musket&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=mus... https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cotton+gin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cot...
reitanqild 12y ago
Why do you need to remove tree stumps? Disclaimer: my forestry education is only from farming school.
- wlphoenix 12y ago
  In cases where you're using pull-behind row planters (like this: https://www.kelcomaine.com/webpics/productpics/tp300/tp300-02-800.jpg https://www.kelcomaine.com/webpics/productpics/tp300/tp300-0...), catching on a stump could tear up the equipment or throw the rider off.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    BigDog would make an excellent tree planting robot.
    - astrodust 12y ago
      It's way too slow. A drone has the advantage of being able to navigate extremely rugged terrain, largely avoiding obstacles, and can traverse across rivers without getting wet. The sorts of areas that desperately need replanting are usually a wasteland to stumps, branches, brush, and lots of rocks.
      - ommunist 12y ago
        One of the most efficient Soviet afforestation technology for pine forests is - wait until the good seed year comes in ripe forest. Cut it down the next year. Cones will land. Burn the place with controlled fire. Stumps will go, cones will open! Bummer, young forest in 3-4 years growing real fast.
        reitanqild 12y ago
        IIRC pine forests often have microsaplings, lots and lots of tiny pine saplings that will start growing once the old trees goes away.
Zequez 12y ago
But you can just add more drones. 2 people planting 36k trees per day is no small feat.
- hurin 12y ago
  > But you can just add more drones. 2 people planting 36k trees per day is no small feat. According to GP: >> Chinese mainland reforestation programme plan was 4 mln ha/year 20 years ago. >> So, drones can plant, say pine seedlings with density of 4 thousand/ha (which is IMHO insufficient), which gives capacity of just 9 ha/day Suppose 180 working days a year that would give: 4 * 10^6 / (180 * 9/2) ~= 5000 operators That doesn't actually sound too bad, not sure how many drones per operator are counted for in the 36,000 trees per 2 operators with multiple drone numbers. One a side note this could still be well above the cost of human labor in third-world countries.
  - ommunist 12y ago
    Thank you hurin, this is a good point. There are marginal costs however. Traditional planting sword is unbreakable. Drones are not. ПЛА-1 was widely criticised in the USSR for its cassette's low quality, and often failures (this is why ПЛА-1А was designed). The other thing is that drones offer only pre-germinated seedling as planting material. This goes well with light seedlings like pine and spruce. But how many oak acorns can be loaded? What about ultra-light seeds, like birch? What about tropical species? The technology is promising, but it will take at least 20 years for it to make its way to industrial forestry with trial and error. I myself would appreciate to see planting drones pack in every forestry range in Russia (with their ZALA UAV they can do that). But I am afraid this particular one is more of a hoax to cover some scheme behind trading carbon quotas, than a real thing. I would like to think otherwise, but years in the industry made me cynical. I am deeply sorry about that.
- ommunist 12y ago
  Well, here is traditional way. 16 kg tool - planting sword. No kids allowed. Up, down, turn to yourself, put sapling turn from yourself, up, step forward, repeat. 8 hrs straight, 2 breaks 30 min each. Roughly 30 sec/sapling is bad speed. 1000 saplings per man/day. Modern tech is better, when you plant pots into machine-made hole, but I never practiced that. UPD: here is the video instruction for this process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6MhT7dbB1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6MhT7dbB1c
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
minthd 12y ago
Can you please share more information about the reforestation bot PLA-1 ? Also ,why isn't robot use in reforestation more common ? 12-24k plantings/hour sounds fantastic.
- vosper 12y ago
  I've been googling around, and I can't find anything online about the PLA-1. I even tried "russian tree planting machine". General searches for tree planting machines turned up this [1] at the top of the results, but they're only claiming a max of 4000-5000 plantings per day - much less than GP claimed for the PLA-1. So, I dunno. GP sounds like they know what they're talking about, but I would still like to see some references. [1] http://www.damcon.nl/en/machines/tree-planting-machines/tree-planting-machine-pl10/ http://www.damcon.nl/en/machines/tree-planting-machines/tree...
  - ommunist 12y ago
    Look for ПЛА-1 and ПЛА-1А. Sorry, the abbreviation stands for Automatic Afforestation Device (Приспособление лесопосадочное автоматическое), designed at Institute of Forest in Homel. I worked there after university. At 6 km/hr and planting 2 saplings per meter it achieves 12 000 saplings /hr.
  - ommunist 12y ago
    Oh, in the same source there is a new one - МЛА-1А «Илана». Can plant forests at 3,75km/h with same cassette feeder 4000 saplings per load on clearings _with_ tree stumps (if stumps density is below 600 stumps/ha.
    - vosper 12y ago
      That seems pretty impressive, actually. Are these machines being marketed outside of Belarus?
      - ommunist 12y ago
        No. No one tried to the best of my knowledge. I personally know to whom I may address your potential enquiry, but I doubt the existing process of decision making in Belarus will produce any fast answers. The best way is to go there and talk if you are really interested.
discardorama 12y ago
I think the problem is: most of the machines and bots you mention can work only in the plains, and in areas reachable by road. What if there are no roads, as is the case in many remote areas?
- ommunist 12y ago
  Ever been in Russia apart the large cities? No roads. Just mere directions. Technically you have to clear the area from stumps and use large tractor with massive forest plough and automaton attached.

thenomad 12y ago

I agree - I think most of the numbers in the article don't really explain why this is so interesting. To me, this is the key part of the proposal, if the technique scales: "at around 15% of the cost of traditional methods."

ommunist 12y ago
Cost comparisons are tricky. Planting hevea plantation in mountain areas of Malaysia is one thing, planting oaks in Kazakhstan is another.

noselasd 12y ago

Given the claim of 36k trees per 2 human operators, at 15% cost of existing methods, isn't the idea to use more operators(and drones) to provide the scale ? Why would that not match industrial capacity ? I'd also be interrested in how these drones fare in different geography, I've manually planted a handful tens of thousands of trees in areas where you can't drive any vehicles - quite different from the rather large flat areas of Russia and Belarus.

ommunist 12y ago
PLA-1, 2 human operators, 12-24K trees per hour. Any Kenyan or Brazilian small forge can make PLA-1 bot. You just supply plastic cassettes with saplings. Besides, saplings are far superior in survivaal rates than seedlings. I also manually planted lots of trees in different areas. Yes, you are right, when area is inaccessible and only manual planting is possible - drones may become helpful. But with 9 ha/day output, I am afraid it is cheaper to use human labour.
- classicsnoot 12y ago
  links or gtfo. jk, but seriously, are their links to studies and pictures? 12k saplings, in my mind, take up a lot of space.
  - stouset 12y ago
    Why just picture it in your mind, and not spend the trivial effort to actually work it out? It's a square with 110 trees to a side. A rough overestimate at 20ft spacing gives us a guess of less than a quarter of a square mile per day, or maybe 75 square miles of saplings planted per year. For comparison, the U.S. has something on the order of 3-3/4 million square miles of forest.
    - hngiszmo 12y ago
      seriously, he throws around terms that bring up video games on google but no "planting bots" from 1970.
      - ommunist 12y ago
        May I draw your attention that Google was made a little bit later, and the Internet too.
        classicsnoot 12y ago
        i am having a hard time believing you are serious. are you actually saying that reason their are no pictures is because your possibly fantastical tree tractor was made in the 70s and google was made in the 90s? https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=canterbury+tales&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=can... https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=musket&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=mus... https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cotton+gin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cot...

reitanqild 12y ago

Why do you need to remove tree stumps? Disclaimer: my forestry education is only from farming school.

wlphoenix 12y ago
In cases where you're using pull-behind row planters (like this: https://www.kelcomaine.com/webpics/productpics/tp300/tp300-02-800.jpg https://www.kelcomaine.com/webpics/productpics/tp300/tp300-0...), catching on a stump could tear up the equipment or throw the rider off.
- sitkack 12y ago
  BigDog would make an excellent tree planting robot.
  - astrodust 12y ago
    It's way too slow. A drone has the advantage of being able to navigate extremely rugged terrain, largely avoiding obstacles, and can traverse across rivers without getting wet. The sorts of areas that desperately need replanting are usually a wasteland to stumps, branches, brush, and lots of rocks.
    - ommunist 12y ago
      One of the most efficient Soviet afforestation technology for pine forests is - wait until the good seed year comes in ripe forest. Cut it down the next year. Cones will land. Burn the place with controlled fire. Stumps will go, cones will open! Bummer, young forest in 3-4 years growing real fast.
      - reitanqild 12y ago
        IIRC pine forests often have microsaplings, lots and lots of tiny pine saplings that will start growing once the old trees goes away.

Zequez 12y ago

But you can just add more drones. 2 people planting 36k trees per day is no small feat.

hurin 12y ago
> But you can just add more drones. 2 people planting 36k trees per day is no small feat. According to GP: >> Chinese mainland reforestation programme plan was 4 mln ha/year 20 years ago. >> So, drones can plant, say pine seedlings with density of 4 thousand/ha (which is IMHO insufficient), which gives capacity of just 9 ha/day Suppose 180 working days a year that would give: 4 * 10^6 / (180 * 9/2) ~= 5000 operators That doesn't actually sound too bad, not sure how many drones per operator are counted for in the 36,000 trees per 2 operators with multiple drone numbers. One a side note this could still be well above the cost of human labor in third-world countries.
- ommunist 12y ago
  Thank you hurin, this is a good point. There are marginal costs however. Traditional planting sword is unbreakable. Drones are not. ПЛА-1 was widely criticised in the USSR for its cassette's low quality, and often failures (this is why ПЛА-1А was designed). The other thing is that drones offer only pre-germinated seedling as planting material. This goes well with light seedlings like pine and spruce. But how many oak acorns can be loaded? What about ultra-light seeds, like birch? What about tropical species? The technology is promising, but it will take at least 20 years for it to make its way to industrial forestry with trial and error. I myself would appreciate to see planting drones pack in every forestry range in Russia (with their ZALA UAV they can do that). But I am afraid this particular one is more of a hoax to cover some scheme behind trading carbon quotas, than a real thing. I would like to think otherwise, but years in the industry made me cynical. I am deeply sorry about that.
ommunist 12y ago
Well, here is traditional way. 16 kg tool - planting sword. No kids allowed. Up, down, turn to yourself, put sapling turn from yourself, up, step forward, repeat. 8 hrs straight, 2 breaks 30 min each. Roughly 30 sec/sapling is bad speed. 1000 saplings per man/day. Modern tech is better, when you plant pots into machine-made hole, but I never practiced that. UPD: here is the video instruction for this process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6MhT7dbB1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6MhT7dbB1c

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

minthd 12y ago

Can you please share more information about the reforestation bot PLA-1 ? Also ,why isn't robot use in reforestation more common ? 12-24k plantings/hour sounds fantastic.

vosper 12y ago
I've been googling around, and I can't find anything online about the PLA-1. I even tried "russian tree planting machine". General searches for tree planting machines turned up this [1] at the top of the results, but they're only claiming a max of 4000-5000 plantings per day - much less than GP claimed for the PLA-1. So, I dunno. GP sounds like they know what they're talking about, but I would still like to see some references. [1] http://www.damcon.nl/en/machines/tree-planting-machines/tree-planting-machine-pl10/ http://www.damcon.nl/en/machines/tree-planting-machines/tree...
- ommunist 12y ago
  Look for ПЛА-1 and ПЛА-1А. Sorry, the abbreviation stands for Automatic Afforestation Device (Приспособление лесопосадочное автоматическое), designed at Institute of Forest in Homel. I worked there after university. At 6 km/hr and planting 2 saplings per meter it achieves 12 000 saplings /hr.
- ommunist 12y ago
  Oh, in the same source there is a new one - МЛА-1А «Илана». Can plant forests at 3,75km/h with same cassette feeder 4000 saplings per load on clearings _with_ tree stumps (if stumps density is below 600 stumps/ha.
  - vosper 12y ago
    That seems pretty impressive, actually. Are these machines being marketed outside of Belarus?
    - ommunist 12y ago
      No. No one tried to the best of my knowledge. I personally know to whom I may address your potential enquiry, but I doubt the existing process of decision making in Belarus will produce any fast answers. The best way is to go there and talk if you are really interested.

discardorama 12y ago

I think the problem is: most of the machines and bots you mention can work only in the plains, and in areas reachable by road. What if there are no roads, as is the case in many remote areas?

ommunist 12y ago
Ever been in Russia apart the large cities? No roads. Just mere directions. Technically you have to clear the area from stumps and use large tractor with massive forest plough and automaton attached.