10 ms·

Relationships Are More Important Than Ambition (2013)

142 points by luckysahaf 11y ago

onion2k 11y ago
This is (yet another) reason to read a little about philosophy. There was a chap called Epicurus who lived in Greece in about 300BC. Around that time the Greeks had city states with a wealthy elite, democracy, and status that arose from owning property. He taught the idea that those things didn't actually make you happy. Essentially he wrote that pleasure comes from avoiding suffering - and a desire to get more material goods leads to jealousy of those who have more which is a root cause of suffering. Epicurus taught that living a simple life with friends, food, exercise and art would make you truly happy. He also invented epistemology which is pretty cool.
- greekgod 11y ago
  I do like your comment about Epicurus. However I don't know if he invented epistemology as such. He certainly extended it. However, Plato discussed theories of knowledge in some of his dialogues well before this [0]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theaetetus_%28dialogue%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theaetetus_%28dialogue%29
- personlurking 11y ago
  Here's Alain de Botton in a 24m video on Epicurus and Happiness. In it, he goes over what Epicurus said is needed to attain happiness. The three things are essentially: self-sustainability, time to reflect and friends. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irornIAQzQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irornIAQzQY
- magnifyingglass 11y ago
  > Epicurus taught that living a simple life with friends, food, exercise and art would make you truly happy He must have never heard of eating disorders and competition between artists. Epictetus taught something that is similar to some kinds of buddhism. He was a Greek Stoic philosopher who was born a slave. Suffering is an inevitable part of life, and the best one can do is choose to be free from it in their mind. You either give the suffering power over you, or you separate yourself from it. People can suffer over anything, but it is callous to assume that they can flip it off easily through the strength of mind, and it is naive to assume everyone has the same root causes of suffering. It is also naive to assume the process of alleviating suffering is the same for everyone in a general sense. You can't get to your philosophy through the words of others. That is the most I have learned through every philosopher - that they did not choose to think to relieve the pain of others, but to first relieve it for themselves. How can you expect to teach something if you don't know that it works? And that is the problem I have with philosophy. You have to keep believing in it to make it work. This leads to study about the nature and existence of truth.
  - Delmania 11y ago
    To notpick, Epicurus was not a stoic, he was a peer to Zeno and taught his own school. Epicurus's approach to suffering was essentially to maximize pleasure and minimize pain.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      Epictetus was a stoic. Epicurus was not.
  - saiya-jin 11y ago
    he didn't write anything about overeating nor competing with artists. For me, message is clear - enjoy good food (quality over quantity), and enjoy arts - even seeing/reading/watching them gives many people including me a pleasant experience (a good step towards happiness)
dcw303 11y ago
This triggered some feelings in someone who lives thousands of kilometres away from their country home town. But when I stop to think about my own (ambitious) path, I considered something that this article doesn't: Can ambitious people be happy staying put? I may not have the contentedness of the stay-at-home types, but I know for certain that I am a lot happier for leaving.
- zongitsrinzler 11y ago
  I think this is an interesting idea. Might it be that ambitious people are happy as they hunt their dreams and when achieving it need to dream bigger to be happy again.
  - saiya-jin 11y ago
    and there lies their fallacy - sooner or later they'll reach a hill they cannot climb/run out of time/any other reason. Truly ambitious people I've met, on the outside, from the distance seem like ideal human beings - achieving a lot, always moving forward. When I became to know them more, pattern was same - they will never be as happy as I am right now, was yesterday, will probably be tomorrow and so on. For them, life is never-ending race, at the finish line of one goal run for next one already begun. Somebody to run my country/company/whatever? Probably very good choice. Do I want this never-ending mental treadmill? Hell NO! :)
    - 4nof 11y ago
      I had a Chinese Algorithms/Computer Graphics professor tell me something that has stuck with me for awhile. He said, "lower your expectations, and you will be happier" I have been ambitious for a long time , and this makes sense. Like saya-jin stated, >>" For them, life is never-ending race, at the finish line of one goal run for next one already begun" Life's short, ambition is a tiring habit. I'm 24, B.S. comp sci degree, cg enthusiast, musician, and Jack of all trades - I'm headed out to SF California for a few weeks. I'm mostly doing it because I've wanted to see if I can look for VR development or at least see how they do it out there. What stories do I want to tell my kids and grandkids? What am I building for their generations? If I focus on always building and never investing in relationships, I won't see grandkids due to putting off life until the job gets done. If I focus on relationships and communities , there's a chance that I might never build anything "great" (or expensive/popular) for the world. There's a balance. I'm realizing now that if there was a black and white choice, I'd much rather have grandkids in a supportive community and build a love of computer graphics & community wherever I'm at.
corv 11y ago
This goes to show how the values of modern society are backwards. We see advertisements depicting happy people using a product and striving towards it means a stressful life of work. We covet status symbols that cause resentment in others. We meticulously create artificial impressions of us that we publish on social networks which ultimately detach us from real social ties that would strengthen us, provide meaning and make us happier. It takes awareness and courage to break free from such harmful habits when they are so ingrained throughout society.
- collyw 11y ago
  The Dali Lama has some wonderful quotes around such subjects: Man sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. Then he is so anxious about the future that he doesn't enjoy the present: the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.
  - steamy 11y ago
    You should thank capitalism for this.
  - Luc 11y ago
    Well that is pretty judgmental, and doesn't sound like something the Dalai Lama would say. At least it's not a supposed Einstein quote for a change...
    - pavlov 11y ago
      Why do you feel it's judgemental? I read it as saying "there are people like this", which is certainly true in my opinion.
      - Luc 11y ago
        'Man' is mankind, so all of humanity. Anyway, Wikiquote concurs with my feeling about it being misattributed: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama#.22What_surprises_you_most_about_humanity.3F.22 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama#...
NhanH 11y ago
Materialistic is not the only type of ambition. Are we actually sure it's not the problem with materialistic, rather than ambition? It would be interesting to have such study comparing with another culture: specifically the Eastern culture. The level of constraint by relationships in Eastern society will laugh any idea of Western constraint out the main door (and the window, too!).
- amyjess 11y ago
  > Materialistic is not the only type of ambition. Are we actually sure it's not the problem with materialistic, rather than ambition? This should be stressed. Look at 4nof and jasode's posts elsewhere in this thread: ambition to "start a family" can be just as harmful as ambition to "perform great works", "strike it rich", or "build a career". Relentless pursuit of any ambition can be detrimental to your happiness. When society tells you "you have to be/do X in order to be happy", but you derive your happiness from Y (and what each person derives happiness from varies from person to person), then you're going to end up being very unhappy if you listen to society. And most people do listen to society since it's drummed into you at all ages and by all groups of people. And then there's me: I'm very materialistic, but I'm not ambitious at all. My only goal in life is to do everything I liked to do as a kid (or wanted to do, but couldn't), only without my parents and teachers to tell me I need to do something else. I eat ice cream whenever I want, my job involves taking things apart and figuring out how they work, I watch all the Netflix I want on nights and weekends, and I get to see the cute girl I always wanted to be in the mirror. I'm pretty happy with that... I'm basically living the life I always wanted to live.
erikb 11y ago
What I really don't like about this kind of article is that it's really hard to get the gist of it without reading all the story telling in it. Is there something to learn inside, or is it "just" the life story of a few guys?
- kev6168 11y ago
  Glad I wasn't the only one struggling to figure out what the true value or insight this kind of articles provide, other than supplying random anecdotes regarding "paths of life". To put it another way, if the coin was flipped and Mr. Rod Dreher stayed at his small home town, a place where he was bullied and misunderstood, instead of leaving for journalism career in big cities, then today he could very well be giving an interview about how he lacked courage to pursue his dream and how he had been trapped in an unhappy life because of that. Then an article would be produced on the detriments of not fighting back against the constraints of relationships and backwards communities. We don't know. Would he be happy or unhappy if he stayed? The article (and all the 'academic' research mentioned) makes the answer to the question even more elusive.
jasode 11y ago
Some extra thoughts the article doesn't address... 1) the "ambition" may be deeply rooted in a person's genetics if it's connected to unchangeable personality traits like novelty seeking[1]. It would be a general feeling of wanderlust and/or wanting to make a change in the world. (e.g. The older brother Ron in the article.) This would be contrasted with someone who has a genetic disposition that prefers routine and familiarity. The visible effects we'd notice would be the person's need for long and stable relationships, and living in close proximity to his/her childhood home. (e.g. The sister Ruthie in the article.) 2) The "quality" of friends people are likely to encounter. Depending on the circumstances (e.g. living in Los Angeles), people can accumulate "friends" but those colleagues from work, fellow church members, etc are not necessarily free of materialism like the Amish neighbors or the Dali Lama. If one is living in Los Angeles, it may be hard to acquire genuine friends who are not plastic. When a difficult life event happens (like losing a job), many so-called "friends" will disappear. When you're hot, everybody wants to know you; when you're not, nobody returns your calls. It's not like the close-knit community of friends the article talks about. 3) a combination of the genetic disposition for restlessness and a society structure that often defaults to shallow friends, is it possible for some types of individuals for the correct advice to be turned on its head: "Ambition is more important than relationships." Think of the mother who has a child (probably the most important "relationship" to nurture) but she is constantly resentful that parenting is blocking the life she could have had (actress, opera singer, etc). Or the adult son that stays in his small town home caring for his sick mother but harbors resentment over missing out on exciting opportunities in London/Manhattan. It's the whole "I could've been a contender!" sentiment. The mother may have been happier getting her tubes tied and pursuing her dreams. The son may have been happier finding other care giving arrangements for his elderly mother instead of being enslaved by a constant guilt trip. For those folks, relationships are still important but it's the relationships that are a consequence of their ambitions that actually become meaningful. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_seeking#Genetics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_seeking#Genetics [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensation_seeking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensation_seeking [3]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICouldaBeenAContender http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICouldaBeenAConte...
- Spooky23 11y ago
tyrael71 11y ago
The article is well written, but the comparison is made on a false premise. People do not choose ambition over relationships, or vice-versa. These terms are much more abstract than people think. The underlying denominator should be purpose, or rather definiteness of purpose. What I mean by that is, the arbiter of whether you should invest resources in your 'ambition' or your 'relationships' is the purpose with which you choose to live. If my self-determination and calling is to colonize mars and build self-driving cars to better humanity, I will position myself to do so, be it through relationships or allocation of other resources. The problem is most people do not have a purpose, ambition can be interpreted both ways, as with everything. If I am defined by egotism and vanity, I might do almost anything I can to feed my vices, whether by buying cars, houses or spending money poorly. People would characterize me as ambitious, and they would be right, but it would be irrelevant, my purpose is built on a flawed foundation, a psychological need to prove myself to others. TL;DR: We shouldn't be comparing terms without considering the purpose through which we choose our everyday actions.
- normloman 11y ago
  You can be ambitious and have relationships. But let's not kid ourselves. People sacrifice relationships for their ambitions all the time. There was an article on HN two weeks ago about a game studio during a death march. How do you have time to bond with friends when you're at work 7 days out of the week and sleeping in a cot in your cubicle? (Even if you have friends at work, they probably aren't your best friends, and doing a death march isn't exactly quality time.)
ilaksh 11y ago
Good article, but some concepts are being mixed a little too freely I think. Mental and physical well-being are not the same as happiness. Also, people who have mental or physical health problems are more likely to be relatively isolated. So it is sometimes a cause rather than an effect.
personlurking 11y ago
My relationships are all over the place (literally, my few friendships are with people in different cities, on different continents), a consequence of them and I having left our own homes in search of something more, and at one time or another, ending up in the same cities. Like Dreher, I left and haven't really looked back. But I didn't do it for that kind of ambition (ie, to attain material things or career advances), I did it simply to know the world better. It's very hard to reconcile my 'digital nomad' lifestyle with that of anyone else I meet. I have the hardest time meeting anyone who has forsaken ambition in the sense mentioned above. Etymonline says this of ambition: "a going around," especially to solicit votes, hence "a striving for favor, courting, flattery; a desire for honor, thirst for popularity". I definitely go around but not for those reasons. I simply seek better understanding of the world and myself, in addition to more knowledge. If I have any material goals, they're to have a small house that I build, in nature but near enough to the city, where I can grow some of my own food, have books, wifi, a motorcycle and a A-to-B car, working just for what I need. But I'm made to feel lesser than for wanting simplicity. In addition, I've been told I'll be 'old and alone' just because I don't wish to marry and have kids (even though I've had several long-term relationships and am in one right now). I've also been left behind by a lot of people I used to call friends because they took the traditional path and I have not. The funny thing is, I'm not looking to be a monk nor to become a 'hippy in an alternative community'. I just feel like I'm normal but want simple things and a handful of good friends. How to reconcile this with what life keeps telling me, I don't know. ___ Some examples of people whose stories I've enjoyed: "Pro-snowboarder, Mike Basich, tours his self-built 225 square foot home in the middle of his 40 acre snow covered property near Truckee, CA - and shows how being close to nature drives his most creative decisions." (7m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sadOfmkTtpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sadOfmkTtpw Daniel Norris signed a bonus worth just over $2 million to join the Blue Jays organization out of high school. While life on the road becomes normal for any pro athlete, the 21-year-old takes things to the next level by spending his summers living in a Volkswagen camper van. (6m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKPa3uVddbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKPa3uVddbU David Welsford has given up the luxuries of land in search for happiness and adventure on a 50-year old wooden boat he restored from a scrap heap. (8m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw
- 11y ago
wvh 11y ago
But how can you (be happy to) come home without having been away? Maybe a lot of people need to have been out to try and experience things, only to return home a bit wiser and calmer. Ideally you'd try many things in life when young and restless, and then let old age and wisdom decide what to prioritise (if life has given you the freedom of that choice).
balabaster 11y ago
What is heartwarming about this is that most "small minded, small town" people don't know this so much as this is just the only way they know... if that makes sense. It's not until you leave and try something else and realize what you thought was so much more; what you thought was better; the dream you chase is really just an illusion. There may be so much more to life than small town living, but what the small town people often don't know they know is that they have everything that's important in life - family, friends, community. The rest is just fluff laid on us as "important", "necessary" and "deserved" by the propaganda fed to us every day by the media. "By God you work hard, you deserve these luxuries in life." What they fail to impart: Most of these luxuries are meaningless, a constant cycle of planned obsolescence, consumerism and mindless spending designed to keep you in a state of want. I was the ambitious one, the one that strayed far from home, chasing the dream, getting caught up in the consumerism. I'm glad that by the age of 38 I have come to realize that I had everything that was important before I left. The remainder was a constant cycle of churn, want more, want bigger, want better, want newer, want more convenient. Except it's hard when it's being fed to you every day by every billboard, every sign, every menu, every advert, every press release, every news story, every TV show to differentiate between want and need. When you stop to analyze what you actually need - I mean really need: Clean air, clean water, shelter, nutrition, sanitation, family, community, companionship; how much of what you're being sold every day is truly "needed" and how much of it is a want to fulfill some notion that has been sold to you by the media?
- visarga 11y ago
  You're right to put happiness in terms of needs, instead of wants. There is this psychological system called Nonviolent Communication (NVC) that relies exactly on making this distinction between needs and wants. They have identified a list (an inventory of basic human needs). https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory
  - leppr 11y ago
    Seeing this list of needs I'm wondering what kind of positive 'thing' doesn't fit in it one way or another. Didn't find any 'wants' inventory in there or anything else that could enlighten me on the distinction. If you don't mind, would you care elaborating a bit on that?
a3voices 11y ago
Yea, but you only live once, and the most interesting thing you can do is build technology. Making things will always be more important to me than relationships.
analyst74 11y ago
I was actually talking to a couple new friends from Sweden and Germany yesterday somewhat related to this. It seems the people who have moved around or traveled a lot tend to be more open to making new friends. While those who never left their hometown tend to be less approachable, and prefer the company of friends they already have.
- kleer001 11y ago
  I'm the opposite. As I've aged making true "friends" has become tiring and unrewarding, more and more so as the years go by.
hipsterrific 11y ago
Having grown up in a big city like Chicago, yes, ambition gets drilled into you at a young age. My dad was pretty ambitious and many of my extended family are the same way. So I turned out to be as ambitious as they are. Now that I'm 35, it seems that all those years of having spent "making sacrifices" were both good and bad. I had to move to Minnesota to learn what it meant to have community. I'm a regular church attender but never really took part in church community life until, oh, 4 years ago. Prior to that I had friends but it was an arm's length friendship. Having traveled, and some times traveling alone, true friends are a rarity and, even though the fame and glamour of a career is amazing, what the author's sister had was far more worthwhile knowing that as she passed, there were people around her that cared and loved her. I'm guilty of assessing small town people as "simple" but in reality, while some crave simplicity, it's not all that bad because these are people who genuinely care for each other's needs and burdens. One thing I took away from that article is that my ambition - though good - can be used to help the people I love. If my ambitions drives me to make more or earn more, then there's no stopping me from giving more. Community is, in a sense, all about giving abundantly and receiving well.
kleer001 11y ago
tl;dr vague feel good lessons, no data just anecdotes.
jqm 11y ago
The whole community got together and helped.... That's nice. They seem to have left out the part where the whole community got together and talked smack about the person or avoided her or did any other number of things like this. There is much that is bad in small towns. Very much.
keerthiko 11y ago
As a "third country migrant", I see this whole post as some kind of B-grade Hollywood movie representation -- a place I cannot see myself fitting into in any way. Immigrant communities in most parts of the world (esp. Indian/Chinese, that have moved to Middle East, America, EU) often grow in isolation from the locals. As such, the kids growing up there may feel camaraderie with their peers (fellow immigrants in their Asian-dominated school) but not really with the city. They go to the coffee shop and see someone "not like them" working there. They don't know what it's like growing up in our household. If the town isn't a higher education or career hotbed, we probably leave for college and never come back. Even when we visit home, none of our friends are there anymore. I have no such thing as a home. I love my parents who are still together, but I can't relate to anything to their home -- where they grew up in their home country. The place I grew up in? Some strangers live there since it was some (series of) tiny rented apartments near my middle/high school. I am a foreigner everywhere I go. But sometimes I'm in a city where I relate to more people, I make friends easily, the city cares about the same things as I do. It may feel like home. But often circumstances won't let someone like me stay in such a city long enough for it to really be my home. The city that feels closest to being home for me, I've spent merely 2 years in, during my early 20s. I haven't been able to go back the last 2 years, and I miss it like how I guess other people say they miss home, that I never understood until recently. "Home" and "where are you from" are confusing and loaded phrases for many people like me.
- NTDF9 11y ago
  As a first generation immigrant, you have no idea how much worse it is for me. Grew up in different cities in "home country". Moved to a new city in another country for college education. Moved to a different city for work. Next job took me to another place. I've been lucky with friends. But yeah, I can sense your pain too!

142 points by luckysahaf 11y ago

This is (yet another) reason to read a little about philosophy. There was a chap called Epicurus who lived in Greece in about 300BC. Around that time the Greeks had city states with a wealthy elite, democracy, and status that arose from owning property. He taught the idea that those things didn't actually make you happy. Essentially he wrote that pleasure comes from avoiding suffering - and a desire to get more material goods leads to jealousy of those who have more which is a root cause of suffering. Epicurus taught that living a simple life with friends, food, exercise and art would make you truly happy. He also invented epistemology which is pretty cool.

greekgod 11y ago
I do like your comment about Epicurus. However I don't know if he invented epistemology as such. He certainly extended it. However, Plato discussed theories of knowledge in some of his dialogues well before this [0]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theaetetus_%28dialogue%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theaetetus_%28dialogue%29
personlurking 11y ago
Here's Alain de Botton in a 24m video on Epicurus and Happiness. In it, he goes over what Epicurus said is needed to attain happiness. The three things are essentially: self-sustainability, time to reflect and friends. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irornIAQzQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irornIAQzQY
magnifyingglass 11y ago
> Epicurus taught that living a simple life with friends, food, exercise and art would make you truly happy He must have never heard of eating disorders and competition between artists. Epictetus taught something that is similar to some kinds of buddhism. He was a Greek Stoic philosopher who was born a slave. Suffering is an inevitable part of life, and the best one can do is choose to be free from it in their mind. You either give the suffering power over you, or you separate yourself from it. People can suffer over anything, but it is callous to assume that they can flip it off easily through the strength of mind, and it is naive to assume everyone has the same root causes of suffering. It is also naive to assume the process of alleviating suffering is the same for everyone in a general sense. You can't get to your philosophy through the words of others. That is the most I have learned through every philosopher - that they did not choose to think to relieve the pain of others, but to first relieve it for themselves. How can you expect to teach something if you don't know that it works? And that is the problem I have with philosophy. You have to keep believing in it to make it work. This leads to study about the nature and existence of truth.
- Delmania 11y ago
  To notpick, Epicurus was not a stoic, he was a peer to Zeno and taught his own school. Epicurus's approach to suffering was essentially to maximize pleasure and minimize pain.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    Epictetus was a stoic. Epicurus was not.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  he didn't write anything about overeating nor competing with artists. For me, message is clear - enjoy good food (quality over quantity), and enjoy arts - even seeing/reading/watching them gives many people including me a pleasant experience (a good step towards happiness)

dcw303 11y ago

This triggered some feelings in someone who lives thousands of kilometres away from their country home town. But when I stop to think about my own (ambitious) path, I considered something that this article doesn't: Can ambitious people be happy staying put? I may not have the contentedness of the stay-at-home types, but I know for certain that I am a lot happier for leaving.

zongitsrinzler 11y ago
I think this is an interesting idea. Might it be that ambitious people are happy as they hunt their dreams and when achieving it need to dream bigger to be happy again.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  and there lies their fallacy - sooner or later they'll reach a hill they cannot climb/run out of time/any other reason. Truly ambitious people I've met, on the outside, from the distance seem like ideal human beings - achieving a lot, always moving forward. When I became to know them more, pattern was same - they will never be as happy as I am right now, was yesterday, will probably be tomorrow and so on. For them, life is never-ending race, at the finish line of one goal run for next one already begun. Somebody to run my country/company/whatever? Probably very good choice. Do I want this never-ending mental treadmill? Hell NO! :)
  - 4nof 11y ago
    I had a Chinese Algorithms/Computer Graphics professor tell me something that has stuck with me for awhile. He said, "lower your expectations, and you will be happier" I have been ambitious for a long time , and this makes sense. Like saya-jin stated, >>" For them, life is never-ending race, at the finish line of one goal run for next one already begun" Life's short, ambition is a tiring habit. I'm 24, B.S. comp sci degree, cg enthusiast, musician, and Jack of all trades - I'm headed out to SF California for a few weeks. I'm mostly doing it because I've wanted to see if I can look for VR development or at least see how they do it out there. What stories do I want to tell my kids and grandkids? What am I building for their generations? If I focus on always building and never investing in relationships, I won't see grandkids due to putting off life until the job gets done. If I focus on relationships and communities , there's a chance that I might never build anything "great" (or expensive/popular) for the world. There's a balance. I'm realizing now that if there was a black and white choice, I'd much rather have grandkids in a supportive community and build a love of computer graphics & community wherever I'm at.

corv 11y ago

This goes to show how the values of modern society are backwards. We see advertisements depicting happy people using a product and striving towards it means a stressful life of work. We covet status symbols that cause resentment in others. We meticulously create artificial impressions of us that we publish on social networks which ultimately detach us from real social ties that would strengthen us, provide meaning and make us happier. It takes awareness and courage to break free from such harmful habits when they are so ingrained throughout society.

collyw 11y ago
The Dali Lama has some wonderful quotes around such subjects: Man sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. Then he is so anxious about the future that he doesn't enjoy the present: the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.
- steamy 11y ago
  You should thank capitalism for this.
- Luc 11y ago
  Well that is pretty judgmental, and doesn't sound like something the Dalai Lama would say. At least it's not a supposed Einstein quote for a change...
  - pavlov 11y ago
    Why do you feel it's judgemental? I read it as saying "there are people like this", which is certainly true in my opinion.
    - Luc 11y ago
      'Man' is mankind, so all of humanity. Anyway, Wikiquote concurs with my feeling about it being misattributed: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama#.22What_surprises_you_most_about_humanity.3F.22 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama#...

NhanH 11y ago

Materialistic is not the only type of ambition. Are we actually sure it's not the problem with materialistic, rather than ambition? It would be interesting to have such study comparing with another culture: specifically the Eastern culture. The level of constraint by relationships in Eastern society will laugh any idea of Western constraint out the main door (and the window, too!).

amyjess 11y ago
> Materialistic is not the only type of ambition. Are we actually sure it's not the problem with materialistic, rather than ambition? This should be stressed. Look at 4nof and jasode's posts elsewhere in this thread: ambition to "start a family" can be just as harmful as ambition to "perform great works", "strike it rich", or "build a career". Relentless pursuit of any ambition can be detrimental to your happiness. When society tells you "you have to be/do X in order to be happy", but you derive your happiness from Y (and what each person derives happiness from varies from person to person), then you're going to end up being very unhappy if you listen to society. And most people do listen to society since it's drummed into you at all ages and by all groups of people. And then there's me: I'm very materialistic, but I'm not ambitious at all. My only goal in life is to do everything I liked to do as a kid (or wanted to do, but couldn't), only without my parents and teachers to tell me I need to do something else. I eat ice cream whenever I want, my job involves taking things apart and figuring out how they work, I watch all the Netflix I want on nights and weekends, and I get to see the cute girl I always wanted to be in the mirror. I'm pretty happy with that... I'm basically living the life I always wanted to live.

erikb 11y ago

What I really don't like about this kind of article is that it's really hard to get the gist of it without reading all the story telling in it. Is there something to learn inside, or is it "just" the life story of a few guys?

kev6168 11y ago
Glad I wasn't the only one struggling to figure out what the true value or insight this kind of articles provide, other than supplying random anecdotes regarding "paths of life". To put it another way, if the coin was flipped and Mr. Rod Dreher stayed at his small home town, a place where he was bullied and misunderstood, instead of leaving for journalism career in big cities, then today he could very well be giving an interview about how he lacked courage to pursue his dream and how he had been trapped in an unhappy life because of that. Then an article would be produced on the detriments of not fighting back against the constraints of relationships and backwards communities. We don't know. Would he be happy or unhappy if he stayed? The article (and all the 'academic' research mentioned) makes the answer to the question even more elusive.

jasode 11y ago

Some extra thoughts the article doesn't address... 1) the "ambition" may be deeply rooted in a person's genetics if it's connected to unchangeable personality traits like novelty seeking[1]. It would be a general feeling of wanderlust and/or wanting to make a change in the world. (e.g. The older brother Ron in the article.) This would be contrasted with someone who has a genetic disposition that prefers routine and familiarity. The visible effects we'd notice would be the person's need for long and stable relationships, and living in close proximity to his/her childhood home. (e.g. The sister Ruthie in the article.) 2) The "quality" of friends people are likely to encounter. Depending on the circumstances (e.g. living in Los Angeles), people can accumulate "friends" but those colleagues from work, fellow church members, etc are not necessarily free of materialism like the Amish neighbors or the Dali Lama. If one is living in Los Angeles, it may be hard to acquire genuine friends who are not plastic. When a difficult life event happens (like losing a job), many so-called "friends" will disappear. When you're hot, everybody wants to know you; when you're not, nobody returns your calls. It's not like the close-knit community of friends the article talks about. 3) a combination of the genetic disposition for restlessness and a society structure that often defaults to shallow friends, is it possible for some types of individuals for the correct advice to be turned on its head: "Ambition is more important than relationships." Think of the mother who has a child (probably the most important "relationship" to nurture) but she is constantly resentful that parenting is blocking the life she could have had (actress, opera singer, etc). Or the adult son that stays in his small town home caring for his sick mother but harbors resentment over missing out on exciting opportunities in London/Manhattan. It's the whole "I could've been a contender!" sentiment. The mother may have been happier getting her tubes tied and pursuing her dreams. The son may have been happier finding other care giving arrangements for his elderly mother instead of being enslaved by a constant guilt trip. For those folks, relationships are still important but it's the relationships that are a consequence of their ambitions that actually become meaningful. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_seeking#Genetics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_seeking#Genetics [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensation_seeking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensation_seeking [3]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICouldaBeenAContender http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICouldaBeenAConte...

Spooky23 11y ago

tyrael71 11y ago

The article is well written, but the comparison is made on a false premise. People do not choose ambition over relationships, or vice-versa. These terms are much more abstract than people think. The underlying denominator should be purpose, or rather definiteness of purpose. What I mean by that is, the arbiter of whether you should invest resources in your 'ambition' or your 'relationships' is the purpose with which you choose to live. If my self-determination and calling is to colonize mars and build self-driving cars to better humanity, I will position myself to do so, be it through relationships or allocation of other resources. The problem is most people do not have a purpose, ambition can be interpreted both ways, as with everything. If I am defined by egotism and vanity, I might do almost anything I can to feed my vices, whether by buying cars, houses or spending money poorly. People would characterize me as ambitious, and they would be right, but it would be irrelevant, my purpose is built on a flawed foundation, a psychological need to prove myself to others. TL;DR: We shouldn't be comparing terms without considering the purpose through which we choose our everyday actions.

normloman 11y ago
You can be ambitious and have relationships. But let's not kid ourselves. People sacrifice relationships for their ambitions all the time. There was an article on HN two weeks ago about a game studio during a death march. How do you have time to bond with friends when you're at work 7 days out of the week and sleeping in a cot in your cubicle? (Even if you have friends at work, they probably aren't your best friends, and doing a death march isn't exactly quality time.)

ilaksh 11y ago

Good article, but some concepts are being mixed a little too freely I think. Mental and physical well-being are not the same as happiness. Also, people who have mental or physical health problems are more likely to be relatively isolated. So it is sometimes a cause rather than an effect.

personlurking 11y ago

My relationships are all over the place (literally, my few friendships are with people in different cities, on different continents), a consequence of them and I having left our own homes in search of something more, and at one time or another, ending up in the same cities. Like Dreher, I left and haven't really looked back. But I didn't do it for that kind of ambition (ie, to attain material things or career advances), I did it simply to know the world better. It's very hard to reconcile my 'digital nomad' lifestyle with that of anyone else I meet. I have the hardest time meeting anyone who has forsaken ambition in the sense mentioned above. Etymonline says this of ambition: "a going around," especially to solicit votes, hence "a striving for favor, courting, flattery; a desire for honor, thirst for popularity". I definitely go around but not for those reasons. I simply seek better understanding of the world and myself, in addition to more knowledge. If I have any material goals, they're to have a small house that I build, in nature but near enough to the city, where I can grow some of my own food, have books, wifi, a motorcycle and a A-to-B car, working just for what I need. But I'm made to feel lesser than for wanting simplicity. In addition, I've been told I'll be 'old and alone' just because I don't wish to marry and have kids (even though I've had several long-term relationships and am in one right now). I've also been left behind by a lot of people I used to call friends because they took the traditional path and I have not. The funny thing is, I'm not looking to be a monk nor to become a 'hippy in an alternative community'. I just feel like I'm normal but want simple things and a handful of good friends. How to reconcile this with what life keeps telling me, I don't know. ___ Some examples of people whose stories I've enjoyed: "Pro-snowboarder, Mike Basich, tours his self-built 225 square foot home in the middle of his 40 acre snow covered property near Truckee, CA - and shows how being close to nature drives his most creative decisions." (7m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sadOfmkTtpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sadOfmkTtpw Daniel Norris signed a bonus worth just over $2 million to join the Blue Jays organization out of high school. While life on the road becomes normal for any pro athlete, the 21-year-old takes things to the next level by spending his summers living in a Volkswagen camper van. (6m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKPa3uVddbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKPa3uVddbU David Welsford has given up the luxuries of land in search for happiness and adventure on a 50-year old wooden boat he restored from a scrap heap. (8m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw

11y ago

wvh 11y ago

But how can you (be happy to) come home without having been away? Maybe a lot of people need to have been out to try and experience things, only to return home a bit wiser and calmer. Ideally you'd try many things in life when young and restless, and then let old age and wisdom decide what to prioritise (if life has given you the freedom of that choice).

balabaster 11y ago

What is heartwarming about this is that most "small minded, small town" people don't know this so much as this is just the only way they know... if that makes sense. It's not until you leave and try something else and realize what you thought was so much more; what you thought was better; the dream you chase is really just an illusion. There may be so much more to life than small town living, but what the small town people often don't know they know is that they have everything that's important in life - family, friends, community. The rest is just fluff laid on us as "important", "necessary" and "deserved" by the propaganda fed to us every day by the media. "By God you work hard, you deserve these luxuries in life." What they fail to impart: Most of these luxuries are meaningless, a constant cycle of planned obsolescence, consumerism and mindless spending designed to keep you in a state of want. I was the ambitious one, the one that strayed far from home, chasing the dream, getting caught up in the consumerism. I'm glad that by the age of 38 I have come to realize that I had everything that was important before I left. The remainder was a constant cycle of churn, want more, want bigger, want better, want newer, want more convenient. Except it's hard when it's being fed to you every day by every billboard, every sign, every menu, every advert, every press release, every news story, every TV show to differentiate between want and need. When you stop to analyze what you actually need - I mean really need: Clean air, clean water, shelter, nutrition, sanitation, family, community, companionship; how much of what you're being sold every day is truly "needed" and how much of it is a want to fulfill some notion that has been sold to you by the media?

visarga 11y ago
You're right to put happiness in terms of needs, instead of wants. There is this psychological system called Nonviolent Communication (NVC) that relies exactly on making this distinction between needs and wants. They have identified a list (an inventory of basic human needs). https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory
- leppr 11y ago
  Seeing this list of needs I'm wondering what kind of positive 'thing' doesn't fit in it one way or another. Didn't find any 'wants' inventory in there or anything else that could enlighten me on the distinction. If you don't mind, would you care elaborating a bit on that?

a3voices 11y ago

Yea, but you only live once, and the most interesting thing you can do is build technology. Making things will always be more important to me than relationships.

analyst74 11y ago

I was actually talking to a couple new friends from Sweden and Germany yesterday somewhat related to this. It seems the people who have moved around or traveled a lot tend to be more open to making new friends. While those who never left their hometown tend to be less approachable, and prefer the company of friends they already have.

kleer001 11y ago
I'm the opposite. As I've aged making true "friends" has become tiring and unrewarding, more and more so as the years go by.

hipsterrific 11y ago

Having grown up in a big city like Chicago, yes, ambition gets drilled into you at a young age. My dad was pretty ambitious and many of my extended family are the same way. So I turned out to be as ambitious as they are. Now that I'm 35, it seems that all those years of having spent "making sacrifices" were both good and bad. I had to move to Minnesota to learn what it meant to have community. I'm a regular church attender but never really took part in church community life until, oh, 4 years ago. Prior to that I had friends but it was an arm's length friendship. Having traveled, and some times traveling alone, true friends are a rarity and, even though the fame and glamour of a career is amazing, what the author's sister had was far more worthwhile knowing that as she passed, there were people around her that cared and loved her. I'm guilty of assessing small town people as "simple" but in reality, while some crave simplicity, it's not all that bad because these are people who genuinely care for each other's needs and burdens. One thing I took away from that article is that my ambition - though good - can be used to help the people I love. If my ambitions drives me to make more or earn more, then there's no stopping me from giving more. Community is, in a sense, all about giving abundantly and receiving well.

kleer001 11y ago

tl;dr vague feel good lessons, no data just anecdotes.

jqm 11y ago

The whole community got together and helped.... That's nice. They seem to have left out the part where the whole community got together and talked smack about the person or avoided her or did any other number of things like this. There is much that is bad in small towns. Very much.

keerthiko 11y ago

As a "third country migrant", I see this whole post as some kind of B-grade Hollywood movie representation -- a place I cannot see myself fitting into in any way. Immigrant communities in most parts of the world (esp. Indian/Chinese, that have moved to Middle East, America, EU) often grow in isolation from the locals. As such, the kids growing up there may feel camaraderie with their peers (fellow immigrants in their Asian-dominated school) but not really with the city. They go to the coffee shop and see someone "not like them" working there. They don't know what it's like growing up in our household. If the town isn't a higher education or career hotbed, we probably leave for college and never come back. Even when we visit home, none of our friends are there anymore. I have no such thing as a home. I love my parents who are still together, but I can't relate to anything to their home -- where they grew up in their home country. The place I grew up in? Some strangers live there since it was some (series of) tiny rented apartments near my middle/high school. I am a foreigner everywhere I go. But sometimes I'm in a city where I relate to more people, I make friends easily, the city cares about the same things as I do. It may feel like home. But often circumstances won't let someone like me stay in such a city long enough for it to really be my home. The city that feels closest to being home for me, I've spent merely 2 years in, during my early 20s. I haven't been able to go back the last 2 years, and I miss it like how I guess other people say they miss home, that I never understood until recently. "Home" and "where are you from" are confusing and loaded phrases for many people like me.

NTDF9 11y ago
As a first generation immigrant, you have no idea how much worse it is for me. Grew up in different cities in "home country". Moved to a new city in another country for college education. Moved to a different city for work. Next job took me to another place. I've been lucky with friends. But yeah, I can sense your pain too!