7 ms·

"We refund the data you don't use" is basically a way of saying "you pay by the megabyte for the data you do use" -- which is actually really great, I've been f

by MBlume 12y ago

"We refund the data you don't use" is basically a way of saying "you pay by the megabyte for the data you do use" -- which is actually really great, I've been frustrated that everyone's settled on "all-you-can-eat" data as the standard, it doesn't align incentives well at all. And they really are refunding it: if you use 1.2GB per month, it doesn't matter whether you sign up for 2, 5, or 10GB, your bill comes out exactly the same.

higherpurpose 12y ago
That's a good point. It's one thing to offer "unlimited data" for a fixed price - which is about ideal for a consumer, but that doesn't exist anymore. What you get is a fixed amount of data for a fixed price. But the provider has an incentive to make you use as little as possible, to increase its profits. But if instead you get the data returned to you, or you pay a reasonable amount by the MB, then the provider has an incentive to make you use as much data as possible. That could mean giving you a much faster service for example.
- MBlume 12y ago
  Also, notice that they're not charging extra for tethering, or care how many devices you tether to. As far as they're concerned, data is data because you're paying for it.
  - pluma 12y ago
    Why would they charge extra for tethering? Is that a thing in some countries?
    - wmf 12y ago
      It's a thing in the US, because "computer data" is better and more expensive than "phone data".
      - pluma 12y ago
        Amazing. How do they tell whether you're tethering, though? If you're using your own smartphone, I mean.
        jpco 12y ago
        They don't, but on-phone software (stock iOS, as a prominent example) enforces the policy.
        pluma 12y ago
        I was furious when I bought a Nexus 7 (first version) and found out that tethering wasn't available on the device (although there was no obvious reason it shouldn't be and rooting the device would have allowed me to enable it). Running into this on stock devices seems absurd.
        psquid 12y ago
        There's various ways: Some rely on the device itself to enforce it, but that's obviously fragile if you can bring your own device. Some check the TTL of your packets when they enter the carrier's network, because tethering is at least one more hop and so even if your computer's OS and phone's OS agree on what TTL starts at, the TTL will still be different than expected for your device's platform. Obviously this can still be mitigated by adjusting your TTL, but outside of software that'll handle this for them, that's already beyond a lot of customers. Some even take the route of only checking HTTP traffic, and detecting tethering based on User-Agent, but I think a lot have abandoned that because it doesn't catch other protocols, and is easily bypassed even on HTTP.
  - wtallis 12y ago
    Won't the new FCC net neutrality rules effectively prevent tethering charges when they go into effect? Specifically, since providers will no longer be allowed to do anything to interfere with tethering, any tethering fees will be completely optional to the consumer.
- yellowapple 12y ago
  > It's one thing to offer "unlimited data" for a fixed price - which is about ideal for a consumer, but that doesn't exist anymore. Yes it does; both Sprint and T-Mobile offer it (alongside their respective non-unlimited plans). The fact that Google Fi doesn't despite using those two carriers as its "partners" is incredibly disappointing.
  - EwanG 12y ago
    To Be Clear, they offer it, but T-Mobile will throttle your speeds after a certain number of megs. Sprint also used to do so, but apparently has stopped doing so due to a need to try to get folks to at least check them out.
    - khuey 12y ago
      T-Mobile does offer an unlimited LTE plan.
    - yellowapple 12y ago
      T-Mobile also offers an unthrottled unlimited plan. Theirs is priced a little lower than Sprint's.
  - repsilat 12y ago
    If bandwidth is scarce there's always an incentive to go towards "pay for what you use" schemes, though. It's like an insurance "death spiral"[1] -- if one provider provides fixed-cost internet (or wide "bands"), the customers who use the least data will subsidise those who use the most. If another provider offers them internet at the true marginal rate, they'll move there. After they've moved on, the fixed-cost internet provider has to increase its rates, rinse and repeat. Of course, customers may prefer to be insulated in the months they use more data than usual, and moving between providers may not be free, or they may just not care at all... 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_spiral_(insurance) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_spiral_(insurance)
    - yellowapple 12y ago
rhino369 12y ago
I just wish it had peak/non-peak pricing. Even something as basic as free nights.
- MBlume 12y ago
  Or better yet, some sort of dynamic pricing when, say, you're on a crowded subway platform. You'd really want solid software integration for that, though, so the user isn't unpleasantly surprised by it.
  - mentat 12y ago
    Type "2.5" to accept surge pricing.
    - eli 12y ago
      But I want my email and push notifications to happen the background without paying extra. Unless it's been a while, then I probably am willing to pay extra. Seems awfully tricky.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        Doesn't seem too tricky to me. Email and push notifications are almost zero data; go ahead and let them pay full price. Download updates and podcasts at 4AM. Maybe ask before doing interactive high-bandwidth things, depends on user preference.
  - rhino369 12y ago
    I think customers would be pissed about never knowing when data will suddenly surge in price, even if you warn them. It would also kill the user experience. And stuff like background updates and push messages would be a pain. I'm sure the usage pattern is steady enough to make a pretty good model.
  - saidajigumi 12y ago
    I have a lot of problems with surge pricing in general, not the least of which (in this example) is that it creates two classes of 'net users: those with enough disposable income to probably not care about surge pricing ever and those for whom it's a burden. Yes, that's a reflection on larger societal issues, but it's still there. Worse, surge pricing is often a distraction for nearly everyone. IMO, it's not ethical to implement surge pricing without allowing a user some mechanism to opt-out of it and to understand why they aren't getting bandwidth at that time. But having put that stake in the ground, the UX now requires that the user waste mental decision energy on ... business bullshit[1]. Last not far from least, it aligns the incentives of carriers against providing enough coverage to handle capacity. We're learning how to handle higher density wireless scenarios (cf. articles on stadium and other heavy-use event network systems). Would we rather incentivize trickle-down of these systems into high-traffic public areas (e.g. commuter zones), or just further line the pockets of a few near-monopolist carriers at our own expense? [1] This relates to why users rightly don't like metered billing -- it creates decision pressure. A payment structure that alleviates use of decision energy is a value add.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
tomhschmidt 12y ago
This plan actually makes no sense. Overage charges are the same rate ($10 / GB), so why am I buying a "plan" at all? Why don't they just charge $10 * x gigs / month instead of all this buying / refunding business?
- nevir 12y ago
  It lets you impose a upper limit of how much you want to spend (I think)
  - RKearney 12y ago
    Not quite. Per the FAQ[0] > Project Fi will first alert you if you're getting close to > your data budget. If you go over, you'll still get full-speed > data and data is charged at the same $10 per GB rate. For > example, if you go over your data budget by 350MB, $3.50 will > be added to your next bill. [0]: https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4 https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4
- MBlume 12y ago
  People think they don't want to pay by the megabyte, so they're calling it something else. Also the plan provides a cap so that you know you're not going to pay more than $X per month without going to some app and adjusting something.
  - ElijahLynn 12y ago
    There isn't actually a cap. Q: What happens if I go over my data budget? A: Project Fi will first alert you if you're getting close to your data budget. If you go over, you'll still get full-speed data and data is charged at the same $10 per GB rate. For example, if you go over your data budget by 350MB, $3.50 will be added to your next bill." source: https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4 https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4
- yellowapple 12y ago
  Or better yet: why aren't they offering an unlimited data plan like what T-Mobile and Sprint (Google Fi's "partners") already offer? Why aren't they even at least going with T-Mobile's approach of "throttle the connection once you go past your data cap, but don't charge overages"? It's like they're taking the best things of both carriers - their unlimited data plans - and pretending those things don't exist, that they're some figment of consumers' imaginations, and instead just taking the AT&T/Verizon approach, but using a soft and squishy dildo instead of a spiked rusty iron dildo to screw us with.
ikeboy 12y ago
http://www.straighttalk.com/wps/portal/home/shop/serviceplans http://www.straighttalk.com/wps/portal/home/shop/serviceplan... has a 3GB plan for a year at $41.25 per month. Google's pricing for the same amount is $50 per month. So the question is whether all the new features (wifi calling, international roaming, pay-for-usage) justify the extra $9, plus the cost of a new phone for those without a Nexus 6. (Wifi calling should probably be left out of that list, since it's most likely going to come to the other carriers later this year.)
- nissimk 12y ago
  It's not just international roaming. StraightTalk does not support international texting. There is no way to text canadian phones from StraightTalk US. If you want International calling you can get that, but it costs more.
  - ikeboy 12y ago
    You can get that for free with Google Voice already, though. If Google already offers something for free, we shouldn't count it in the value calculation.
- durin42 12y ago
  It's worth pointing out that with Fi you only pay for the data you _actually use_, so if you only use 1G you end up saving a bunch, and if you need more you can still get it when it's required.
- wlesieutre 12y ago
  T-Mobile has a 5GB (LTE) + unlimited (slowed after 5GB) plan for $30/month. It only has 100 minutes, but you can use Google Voice or similar over data. And who talks on the phone anymore anyway?
  - ikeboy 12y ago
    The reason I mentioned Straight Talk was that it works with all 4 main US carriers. T-Mobile doesn't have service everywhere. >And who talks on the phone anymore anyway? I know a number of people who wouldn't buy a plan unless it had unlimited minutes. Some people use their phones for talking heavily.

by MBlume 12y ago

higherpurpose 12y ago

That's a good point. It's one thing to offer "unlimited data" for a fixed price - which is about ideal for a consumer, but that doesn't exist anymore. What you get is a fixed amount of data for a fixed price. But the provider has an incentive to make you use as little as possible, to increase its profits. But if instead you get the data returned to you, or you pay a reasonable amount by the MB, then the provider has an incentive to make you use as much data as possible. That could mean giving you a much faster service for example.

MBlume 12y ago
Also, notice that they're not charging extra for tethering, or care how many devices you tether to. As far as they're concerned, data is data because you're paying for it.
- pluma 12y ago
  Why would they charge extra for tethering? Is that a thing in some countries?
  - wmf 12y ago
    It's a thing in the US, because "computer data" is better and more expensive than "phone data".
    - pluma 12y ago
      Amazing. How do they tell whether you're tethering, though? If you're using your own smartphone, I mean.
      - jpco 12y ago
        They don't, but on-phone software (stock iOS, as a prominent example) enforces the policy.
        pluma 12y ago
        I was furious when I bought a Nexus 7 (first version) and found out that tethering wasn't available on the device (although there was no obvious reason it shouldn't be and rooting the device would have allowed me to enable it). Running into this on stock devices seems absurd.
      - psquid 12y ago
        There's various ways: Some rely on the device itself to enforce it, but that's obviously fragile if you can bring your own device. Some check the TTL of your packets when they enter the carrier's network, because tethering is at least one more hop and so even if your computer's OS and phone's OS agree on what TTL starts at, the TTL will still be different than expected for your device's platform. Obviously this can still be mitigated by adjusting your TTL, but outside of software that'll handle this for them, that's already beyond a lot of customers. Some even take the route of only checking HTTP traffic, and detecting tethering based on User-Agent, but I think a lot have abandoned that because it doesn't catch other protocols, and is easily bypassed even on HTTP.
- wtallis 12y ago
  Won't the new FCC net neutrality rules effectively prevent tethering charges when they go into effect? Specifically, since providers will no longer be allowed to do anything to interfere with tethering, any tethering fees will be completely optional to the consumer.
yellowapple 12y ago
> It's one thing to offer "unlimited data" for a fixed price - which is about ideal for a consumer, but that doesn't exist anymore. Yes it does; both Sprint and T-Mobile offer it (alongside their respective non-unlimited plans). The fact that Google Fi doesn't despite using those two carriers as its "partners" is incredibly disappointing.
- EwanG 12y ago
  To Be Clear, they offer it, but T-Mobile will throttle your speeds after a certain number of megs. Sprint also used to do so, but apparently has stopped doing so due to a need to try to get folks to at least check them out.
  - khuey 12y ago
    T-Mobile does offer an unlimited LTE plan.
  - yellowapple 12y ago
    T-Mobile also offers an unthrottled unlimited plan. Theirs is priced a little lower than Sprint's.
- repsilat 12y ago
  If bandwidth is scarce there's always an incentive to go towards "pay for what you use" schemes, though. It's like an insurance "death spiral"[1] -- if one provider provides fixed-cost internet (or wide "bands"), the customers who use the least data will subsidise those who use the most. If another provider offers them internet at the true marginal rate, they'll move there. After they've moved on, the fixed-cost internet provider has to increase its rates, rinse and repeat. Of course, customers may prefer to be insulated in the months they use more data than usual, and moving between providers may not be free, or they may just not care at all... 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_spiral_(insurance) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_spiral_(insurance)
  - yellowapple 12y ago

rhino369 12y ago

I just wish it had peak/non-peak pricing. Even something as basic as free nights.

MBlume 12y ago
Or better yet, some sort of dynamic pricing when, say, you're on a crowded subway platform. You'd really want solid software integration for that, though, so the user isn't unpleasantly surprised by it.
- mentat 12y ago
  Type "2.5" to accept surge pricing.
  - eli 12y ago
    But I want my email and push notifications to happen the background without paying extra. Unless it's been a while, then I probably am willing to pay extra. Seems awfully tricky.
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Doesn't seem too tricky to me. Email and push notifications are almost zero data; go ahead and let them pay full price. Download updates and podcasts at 4AM. Maybe ask before doing interactive high-bandwidth things, depends on user preference.
- rhino369 12y ago
  I think customers would be pissed about never knowing when data will suddenly surge in price, even if you warn them. It would also kill the user experience. And stuff like background updates and push messages would be a pain. I'm sure the usage pattern is steady enough to make a pretty good model.
- saidajigumi 12y ago
  I have a lot of problems with surge pricing in general, not the least of which (in this example) is that it creates two classes of 'net users: those with enough disposable income to probably not care about surge pricing ever and those for whom it's a burden. Yes, that's a reflection on larger societal issues, but it's still there. Worse, surge pricing is often a distraction for nearly everyone. IMO, it's not ethical to implement surge pricing without allowing a user some mechanism to opt-out of it and to understand why they aren't getting bandwidth at that time. But having put that stake in the ground, the UX now requires that the user waste mental decision energy on ... business bullshit[1]. Last not far from least, it aligns the incentives of carriers against providing enough coverage to handle capacity. We're learning how to handle higher density wireless scenarios (cf. articles on stadium and other heavy-use event network systems). Would we rather incentivize trickle-down of these systems into high-traffic public areas (e.g. commuter zones), or just further line the pockets of a few near-monopolist carriers at our own expense? [1] This relates to why users rightly don't like metered billing -- it creates decision pressure. A payment structure that alleviates use of decision energy is a value add.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

tomhschmidt 12y ago

This plan actually makes no sense. Overage charges are the same rate ($10 / GB), so why am I buying a "plan" at all? Why don't they just charge $10 * x gigs / month instead of all this buying / refunding business?

nevir 12y ago
It lets you impose a upper limit of how much you want to spend (I think)
- RKearney 12y ago
  Not quite. Per the FAQ[0] > Project Fi will first alert you if you're getting close to > your data budget. If you go over, you'll still get full-speed > data and data is charged at the same $10 per GB rate. For > example, if you go over your data budget by 350MB, $3.50 will > be added to your next bill. [0]: https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4 https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4
MBlume 12y ago
People think they don't want to pay by the megabyte, so they're calling it something else. Also the plan provides a cap so that you know you're not going to pay more than $X per month without going to some app and adjusting something.
- ElijahLynn 12y ago
  There isn't actually a cap. Q: What happens if I go over my data budget? A: Project Fi will first alert you if you're getting close to your data budget. If you go over, you'll still get full-speed data and data is charged at the same $10 per GB rate. For example, if you go over your data budget by 350MB, $3.50 will be added to your next bill." source: https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4 https://fi.google.com/about/faq/#plan-and-pricing-4
yellowapple 12y ago
Or better yet: why aren't they offering an unlimited data plan like what T-Mobile and Sprint (Google Fi's "partners") already offer? Why aren't they even at least going with T-Mobile's approach of "throttle the connection once you go past your data cap, but don't charge overages"? It's like they're taking the best things of both carriers - their unlimited data plans - and pretending those things don't exist, that they're some figment of consumers' imaginations, and instead just taking the AT&T/Verizon approach, but using a soft and squishy dildo instead of a spiked rusty iron dildo to screw us with.

ikeboy 12y ago

http://www.straighttalk.com/wps/portal/home/shop/serviceplans http://www.straighttalk.com/wps/portal/home/shop/serviceplan... has a 3GB plan for a year at $41.25 per month. Google's pricing for the same amount is $50 per month. So the question is whether all the new features (wifi calling, international roaming, pay-for-usage) justify the extra $9, plus the cost of a new phone for those without a Nexus 6. (Wifi calling should probably be left out of that list, since it's most likely going to come to the other carriers later this year.)

nissimk 12y ago
It's not just international roaming. StraightTalk does not support international texting. There is no way to text canadian phones from StraightTalk US. If you want International calling you can get that, but it costs more.
- ikeboy 12y ago
  You can get that for free with Google Voice already, though. If Google already offers something for free, we shouldn't count it in the value calculation.
durin42 12y ago
It's worth pointing out that with Fi you only pay for the data you _actually use_, so if you only use 1G you end up saving a bunch, and if you need more you can still get it when it's required.
wlesieutre 12y ago
T-Mobile has a 5GB (LTE) + unlimited (slowed after 5GB) plan for $30/month. It only has 100 minutes, but you can use Google Voice or similar over data. And who talks on the phone anymore anyway?
- ikeboy 12y ago
  The reason I mentioned Straight Talk was that it works with all 4 main US carriers. T-Mobile doesn't have service everywhere. >And who talks on the phone anymore anyway? I know a number of people who wouldn't buy a plan unless it had unlimited minutes. Some people use their phones for talking heavily.