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"Europe" competing with a small neighborhood on the west coast where the vast majority of the world's tech capital lives? Sorry I don't see it. Combined with

• hikz 12y ago
  Here in Denmark IT companies are extremely elitist. Tons of simple ASP.NET and Java EE jobs require a master's degree in CS or CE. Contrast this with the coding bootcamps and "everyone can learn to code" culture in the US and you can see why innovation is so slow here in Denmark. I am a CS student genuinely interested in compiler construction, distributed systems and programming language design so I don't feel I'm being forced to take a CS degree to get an IT job. But I still think it's sad that you need an advanced degree to get CRUD web/business app development jobs.
  • jpkeisala 12y ago
    I think it is common everywhere to have out of portion experience and education requirements for programming jobs even in USA. I don't have any CS education and nobody has ever asked me about my education. Though, I have been in business since 1997.
  • wobbleblob 12y ago
    Innovation isn't slow in Denmark at all (source: I work for a Danish software company). Do you have any evidence people from these 'everyone can learn to code bootcamps' actually land good jobs or end up doing something innovating in the US? I think the difference between Denmark and Silicon valley is investment money and the size of the domestic market. If the EU wants to recreate Silicon Valley, it's not tech they need to stimulate, but money. I think trying to recreate silicon valley is like trying to recreate Hollywood or Mecca.
    • saosebastiao 12y ago
      I can't speak for the bootcamps, but I know dozens of self taught developers working at Amazon and Google, and the large companies are typically more credentialist. I have no problem believing that coding bootcamps can result in high paying jobs.
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  • rdudek 12y ago
    Isn't this more of a supply/demand issue than anything else? Most my friends back in Poland are coders and engineers and they all have master degrees in their fields.
    • Kurtz79 12y ago
      My thoughts exactly. A difference between US and Europe is that in EU countries a degree is cheaper (or completely free if you meet some financial and grades requirements), since it is subsidized by the state in many cases. But I agree with the parent that it shouldn't be a discrimination, especially if you can demonstrate relevant experience in the field.
      • adventured 12y ago
        Despite the cost of tuition doubling in the last decade or so, the US still produces a vast number of college graduates. It ranks #6 in the world in terms of college graduates (assoc. degree or higher) per capita (behind Russia, Canada, Israel, New Zealand, Japan). The US is also now producing twice the number of masters graduates per capita it was 25 years ago. One thing that US isn't lacking for, is college degrees. And when it comes to the free aspect - if that's so great, how come 3/4 of European countries have vastly lower college graduation rates versus the US?
      • tormeh 12y ago
        Not free of opportunity costs, and even if the degree is free, you still have to eat and pay rent.
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  • _delirium 12y ago
    There's some of that, but I've also met quite a few self-taught programmers in the Nordic region. They mostly do have some very "solid" alternative credentials. One of the more common alternative credentials, which I think is a bit unique to the region, is the heavy role of people from the demoscene. If you look at programmers in many tech companies, there are a lot of demoscene people lacking university degrees who fill senior roles. This is more true outside the very traditional sectors, though; IO Interactive has more demoscene alumni than Danske Bank does.
• iagooar 12y ago
  Could you elaborate on the nature of European VC's (as compared to American ones)? I'm genuinely curious.
  • tormeh 12y ago
    Not the parent, but what I've heard is that they're cash-strapped, risk-averse and don't really care about growth.
  • jpkeisala 12y ago
    Basically European VC's in hightech are living in SF. Very few are staying here.
  • solve 12y ago
    It's a classic "market for lemons". The best EU VCs move or get moved to Silicon Valley. The ones that are left are nearly always bad. Best description of them is a bunch of used car salesmen who would rather make their money by extracting value through tricking and hurting entrepreneurs, than by working hard to add value and make great bets. Sad, but that's been my experience over the years. You could make a long list of specific differences, but that's the general situation.
  • madamepsychosis 12y ago
    Here's a recent anecdote: A company in London had developed a seriously impressive, breakthrough technology. When they went to meet European VCs, they wanted a business plan, revenue graphs, etc., nothing about how the technology worked. They were mostly ex-McKinsey and ex-banking and probably would not have understood the mechanics anyway. They lowballed/ passed on this company, because they were raising > £10 million, which by EU standards is a massive amount, and the financials of this < 5 y/o company were too shaky. Then the founders went out to SF for a month, and pretty soon were practically drowning in termsheets.
• pea 12y ago
  Never is a strong word. I agree with you on the VC front; but talent-front, I am so blown away w/ what London has to offer. Plus excellent schemes like Entrepreneur First are really changing stuff. But the attitudes of investors is lacking massively: Aaron Harris tweeted that "When reading YC apps, the most important question isn't "Why could this fail?" but "How could this be incredible?"" -- this sentiment needs to seep into the minds here, who seem more focused on risk aversion than optimising for upside. I hope this is the 'easy' bit to change (I'm not sure). My gut says it's an old guard that will eventually be replaced.
• sschueller 12y ago
  I think that is a good thing that Europe may never have a Silicon Valley. Some things in the US corporate world are extremely reckless and pray on the many to profit the few.
  • rockdoe 12y ago
    Is that an accurate characterization of Silicon Valley, though? If you're an engineer in a startup you known you're making somewhat of a gamble. But even if you lose, you're not exactly going to be poor. If you're a founder, my impression at least is that the US culture is much more tolerant of people whose business went bankrupt. In Europe you're just one step up from a criminal.
    • pluma 12y ago
      To be fair, a lot of American startups only work because of the lack of privacy and labour laws in the US (compared to the EU). EU legislature may be a hassle at times, but it tends to give customers and employees a lot of protection they wouldn't get in the US. But what you say about startups in the EU is true. In many EU countries insolvency can have drastic consequences for the founder(s). In some of them it's also much harder to incorporate than in the US (e.g. in Germany you need to raise € 25k to form a "GmbH"; there is now also a transitional form called "UG (haftungsbeschränkt)" (yes, always unabbreviated or you can be sued) but you still need to follow all the legal and tax requirements and everyone will think you're poor and/or a scam). Additionally VCs seem to focus more on traditional requirements and metrics, like business plans or profit estimates, rather than growth or traction. For example it seems to be nearly impossible to get funding for open source companies ("So let me get this right: you're giving it away for free and you expect us to fund you?").
• michaelochurch 12y ago
  Silicon Valley VCs can be spineless as well. There's a lot of herd mentality: plenty of VCs who check others' opinions before deciding whether they like you. Perhaps the difference is that 10% who aren't spineless. We may have a critical mass that Europe doesn't: a small percentage of non-spineless VCs that is just enough to get a few things off the ground. Unfortunately, the not-spineless VCs who actually show leadership and think for themselves are also inaccessible without a social advantage: you have to get that introduction first. You can't just call up Sequoia and get an afternoon with a senior partner. "Europe" (speaking broadly, because it's a huge (sub)continent) has advantages on the ground. It's not a horrible place to live. Europe has a lot of problems, but they have universal healthcare, a culture of substance, and attractive architecture. Silicon Valley, on the other hand, is soulless, ugly, expensive, and detached from reality. I'd live in Budapest or London before Palo Alto or Mountain View and it's not even close. (This isn't an America vs. Europe comparison. I like New York and Chicago quite a lot.) All of that said, Europe does need, if it wants to be significant in the technology game, to overcome the McKinsey/Rocket mentality that seems to exist in the upper reaches. SV's upper tier (investors) is bad but theirs is even more stifling, elitist, and detrimental (although probably less immature and obnoxious).
• namlem 12y ago
  The closest thing Europe has to a major tech hub is Tel Aviv.
  • solve 12y ago
    So the best tech hub in Europe is - not in Europe? Figures. :) True though, serious stuff seems to be happening with Israel. I even know of a growing number of US-based startups who've been raising parts of their rounds from Israel-based investors in the past few years. Correct me if I'm wrong, my impression is that they don't have the anti-American nationalism and not invented here syndrome mentalities that countries in Europe seem to have. Big advantage.
    • bsaul 12y ago
      Europe corps aren't anti-american when it's about tech. Pretty much the opposite. We had to pretend our french tech was developped at our US office to be able to sell it to german companies.
      • solve 12y ago
        I was unclear. Of course they have no hesitation about consuming US products or services. I meant about adopting the US business culture & investment habits in their offices.
    • eli_gottlieb 12y ago
      >Correct me if I'm wrong, my impression is that they don't have the anti-American nationalism and not invented here syndrome mentalities that countries in Europe seem to have. Big advantage. Israeli philo-Americanism is its own can of worms. But in general: Israel is a very young country, often only a couple of steps up from the developing world, and is thus lacking in an "establishment" to "disrupt". This makes it a very good place to experiment, simply because, what the hell, nobody's going to try to stop you, and the masses and government feel more bolstered by your experimentation than threatened. But this comes with a distinct downside for the country: that big, serious stuff is assumed to either be "kmo ba'hul" (like [it is] abroad), or to eventually necessitate a move abroad. Successful Israeli entrepreneurs and engineers hope to move to Silicon Valley or New York, with the unfortunate result that Israel stays a very young country with comparatively less-developed infrastructure.
• api 12y ago
  You really just described most of the world, not just Europe. The Bay Area is among a small number of bright spots where people actually do things.
  • k-mcgrady 12y ago
    >> The Bay Area is among a small number of bright spots where people actually do things. Talk about living in a bubble...
  • deleted 12y ago
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