9 ms·

Printers Which Do or Do Not Display Tracking Dots

142 points by 8_hours_ago 12y ago

Qantourisc 12y ago
Is this even allowed outside of the US?
- schoen 12y ago
  It was a multinational initiative, at least in its later stages. (You're welcome to ask a local data protection authority if they approve...)
joesb 12y ago
I never notice that before. Can I see the scanned image of that yellow dot?
- 8_hours_ago 12y ago
  There are images of some of the tracking dots, along with more background information here: https://www.eff.org/wp/investigating-machine-identification-code-technology-color-laser-printers https://www.eff.org/wp/investigating-machine-identification-...
- cnvogel 12y ago
  http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=51 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=51 ...wherein a flatbed-scanner is modified to illuminate the paper with blue LEDs thereby making the yellow dots more visible.
ridgeguy 12y ago
Is it known whether inkjet printers have a similar issue? My brief search didn't find anything.
- schoen 12y ago
  They don't appear to. There are forensic methods (for example, based on irregular wear of the gears!) but no known deliberate forensic marks.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  If they did, the feature would stop working correctly by the end of the first ink cartridge.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    So does printing.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      http://thatsthejoke.net/ http://thatsthejoke.net/
userbinator 12y ago
It seems there could be a demand for open-source printer firmware... but I'm not aware of any projects. There are some efforts to get around cartridge DRM though, but they tend to be relatively small. I suppose one problem could be the massive number of different models out there, although from what I've seen a lot of models are based on the same mechanics and processor platforms. On the other hand, completely open-source 3D printers seem to be a lot more prominent and successful.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  Oddly enough, the original inspiration for GNU was a proprietary printer control program that upset RMS enough that he decided to start a revolution. You'd think somebody would be working on that. Printers are so evil, in general, that I try very, very, very, hard to avoid them entirely. I've been known to take a picture of my signature and edit it in GIMP and paste it into a document in order to avoid using a printer to print/sign something.
  - psykovsky 12y ago
    I do work for a record label where artists sometimes do stuff like that, take a photo of their signature and use Paint to add it to the contracts. The guys at the office get mad. They want them to print it, sign it, scan it and send it back. Oh, well...
    - literalusername 12y ago
      Any intentional mark is a legally valid signature. It doesn't matter what tool is used to make the mark, be it a computer, a muddy twig, or anything else. The established legality of electronic signatures is the reason why we have HelloSign.
      - psykovsky 12y ago
        Tried to exhaustion to convince them. I've given up. They're like tied up to that specific process and nothing will change their mind, not even reason it seems.
aikah 12y ago
I guess it's time for an opensource DIY kit for printers which, of course, an opensource firmware...
- jkestner 12y ago
  That is literally how Richard Stallman got into open source software. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Events_leading_to_GNU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Events_leading...
- e12e 12y ago
  Well, at least one can modify a rep-rap style 3d printer into a poor man's plotter... But it won't really do for printing a 600 page manifesto to send to newspapers in preparation for a grand terrorist attack...
- gabriel34 12y ago
  simpler solution would be to add lots of noise by printing your own wellow dots in every printed page best solution is openhardware and software, but printers are subsidezed by the ink cartridges, so it would cost a lot more than commercial ones.
  - aikah 12y ago
    yes, ink is definitely the problem.
lucaspiller 12y ago
I wonder what the purpose of this tracking is. If you want to avoid it* then the simple solution is don't use a laser printer or just use a printer in a public location like a library. It seems like if you want to avoid it, then it is pretty simple. Even if you do know the serial number it is going to be pretty hard to find out the owner of the printer, they could have paid cash on Craigslist for example. *I mean in terms of carrying out nefarious activities. I'm not saying this tracking is ethical.
- dingaling 12y ago
  > or just use a printer in a public location like a library. My library identity is encoded in the printing job ( I've seen the queue that the librarians manage to release the job ) so a determined authority wouldn't have much difficulty rounding-up the suspects.
  - OliverJones 12y ago
    Hmm. The librarians I know are among the most determined defenders of personal privacy you can imagine. They've even worked out ways of letting people know if they've been hit with a "PATRIOT" act demand. Still, you're right that a relentless agency could grab the data.
    - JadeNB 12y ago
      > They've even worked out ways of letting people know if they've been hit with a "PATRIOT" act demand. How?
      - schoen 12y ago
        Probably a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary originally proposed by Jessamyn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessamyn_West_%28librarian%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessamyn_West_%28librarian%29
- seanwilson 12y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
Joke's on the Feds: my next printer is a 1980s daisy-wheel printer which is completely incapable of printing tracking dots! (Also expensive, slow, incredibly noisy, power-inefficient) Though I remember that the Stasi could tell which typewriter something was printed from (assuming that detail of Das Leben der Anderen was true), and a daisy-wheel printer works much like a typewriter.
- lisper 12y ago
  If you're the only one using daisy wheel printer then it won't be hard to figure out where the daisy-wheel-printed document came from. Also, it's hard to print convincing counterfeit currency using a daisy wheel printer, which is the main thing the government wants to stop with these tracking dots.
  - gus_massa 12y ago
    And probably each daisy well has small differences that make your prints identifiable. One they get you and your daisy well, you have no deniability.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
      As I mentioned (typewriters, Stasi) In the old days they'd magnify the printout and compare the characters to the prints that the manufacturers had given them.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    > If you're the only one using daisy wheel printer then it won't be hard to figure out where the daisy-wheel-printed document came from. Yes, that's also an issue I'd considered. > Also, it's hard to print convincing counterfeit currency using a daisy wheel printer, which is the main thing the government wants to stop with these tracking dots. Yes, but that's not why anyone is worried about it. The problem with tracking dots is they mean you can connect documents by the same person.
- akavel 12y ago
cmdrfred 12y ago
I wonder if this is the real reason why some printers won't allow you to print in black and white when you run out of color ink.
- mark-r 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure the reason for that is just to make sure you spend money for more cartridges. It's hard to do counterfeiting in black-and-white.
- avn2109 12y ago
  That and that they want you to buy more ink.
throwawayexleo 12y ago
These identification dots have been around at least 15 years. Working in a LEO in 1999, I was aware both laser and inkjet printers were traceable then (not just color). For serious enough cases (drugs mostly at that time, the terrorism stuff was strictly post 2001) prints could be sent for technical analysis (probably via 3 letter agency) and details came back (within 24 hours if it was serious enough). No-one seems to have picked up on the more concerning fact that nowadays with internet connected everything, your printer driver can quite easily report in the printer details via your connection (that friendly, 'do you want me to check for updates?' or 'live ink/toner status' tool can do more than what they say and if it's a net connected printer itself, it can do it directly). So now, an IP/location/ISP bill payer can be identified with the printer (even over time if you sell it on). Much better tracking than before when it relied on you filling in and sending off that 'warranty registration' card. Better hope you've got details of who you sold the printer to if it happens that Craigslist John Doe has some other use in mind other than printing vacation photos.
Cowicide 12y ago
Could this be done with jpeg and gif compression? For example, could Adobe's apps export jpegs laced with patterns within the compressed pixels that could be traced back to the owner of the app? And, has anyone checked for this behavior?

142 points by 8_hours_ago 12y ago

Qantourisc 12y ago

Is this even allowed outside of the US?

schoen 12y ago
It was a multinational initiative, at least in its later stages. (You're welcome to ask a local data protection authority if they approve...)

joesb 12y ago

I never notice that before. Can I see the scanned image of that yellow dot?

8_hours_ago 12y ago
There are images of some of the tracking dots, along with more background information here: https://www.eff.org/wp/investigating-machine-identification-code-technology-color-laser-printers https://www.eff.org/wp/investigating-machine-identification-...
cnvogel 12y ago
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=51 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=51 ...wherein a flatbed-scanner is modified to illuminate the paper with blue LEDs thereby making the yellow dots more visible.

ridgeguy 12y ago

Is it known whether inkjet printers have a similar issue? My brief search didn't find anything.

schoen 12y ago
They don't appear to. There are forensic methods (for example, based on irregular wear of the gears!) but no known deliberate forensic marks.
SwellJoe 12y ago
If they did, the feature would stop working correctly by the end of the first ink cartridge.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  So does printing.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    http://thatsthejoke.net/ http://thatsthejoke.net/

userbinator 12y ago

It seems there could be a demand for open-source printer firmware... but I'm not aware of any projects. There are some efforts to get around cartridge DRM though, but they tend to be relatively small. I suppose one problem could be the massive number of different models out there, although from what I've seen a lot of models are based on the same mechanics and processor platforms. On the other hand, completely open-source 3D printers seem to be a lot more prominent and successful.

SwellJoe 12y ago
Oddly enough, the original inspiration for GNU was a proprietary printer control program that upset RMS enough that he decided to start a revolution. You'd think somebody would be working on that. Printers are so evil, in general, that I try very, very, very, hard to avoid them entirely. I've been known to take a picture of my signature and edit it in GIMP and paste it into a document in order to avoid using a printer to print/sign something.
- psykovsky 12y ago
  I do work for a record label where artists sometimes do stuff like that, take a photo of their signature and use Paint to add it to the contracts. The guys at the office get mad. They want them to print it, sign it, scan it and send it back. Oh, well...
  - literalusername 12y ago
    Any intentional mark is a legally valid signature. It doesn't matter what tool is used to make the mark, be it a computer, a muddy twig, or anything else. The established legality of electronic signatures is the reason why we have HelloSign.
    - psykovsky 12y ago
      Tried to exhaustion to convince them. I've given up. They're like tied up to that specific process and nothing will change their mind, not even reason it seems.

aikah 12y ago

I guess it's time for an opensource DIY kit for printers which, of course, an opensource firmware...

jkestner 12y ago
That is literally how Richard Stallman got into open source software. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Events_leading_to_GNU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Events_leading...
e12e 12y ago
Well, at least one can modify a rep-rap style 3d printer into a poor man's plotter... But it won't really do for printing a 600 page manifesto to send to newspapers in preparation for a grand terrorist attack...
gabriel34 12y ago
simpler solution would be to add lots of noise by printing your own wellow dots in every printed page best solution is openhardware and software, but printers are subsidezed by the ink cartridges, so it would cost a lot more than commercial ones.
- aikah 12y ago
  yes, ink is definitely the problem.

lucaspiller 12y ago

I wonder what the purpose of this tracking is. If you want to avoid it* then the simple solution is don't use a laser printer or just use a printer in a public location like a library. It seems like if you want to avoid it, then it is pretty simple. Even if you do know the serial number it is going to be pretty hard to find out the owner of the printer, they could have paid cash on Craigslist for example. *I mean in terms of carrying out nefarious activities. I'm not saying this tracking is ethical.

dingaling 12y ago
> or just use a printer in a public location like a library. My library identity is encoded in the printing job ( I've seen the queue that the librarians manage to release the job ) so a determined authority wouldn't have much difficulty rounding-up the suspects.
- OliverJones 12y ago
  Hmm. The librarians I know are among the most determined defenders of personal privacy you can imagine. They've even worked out ways of letting people know if they've been hit with a "PATRIOT" act demand. Still, you're right that a relentless agency could grab the data.
  - JadeNB 12y ago
    > They've even worked out ways of letting people know if they've been hit with a "PATRIOT" act demand. How?
    - schoen 12y ago
      Probably a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary originally proposed by Jessamyn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessamyn_West_%28librarian%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessamyn_West_%28librarian%29
seanwilson 12y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago

Joke's on the Feds: my next printer is a 1980s daisy-wheel printer which is completely incapable of printing tracking dots! (Also expensive, slow, incredibly noisy, power-inefficient) Though I remember that the Stasi could tell which typewriter something was printed from (assuming that detail of Das Leben der Anderen was true), and a daisy-wheel printer works much like a typewriter.

lisper 12y ago
If you're the only one using daisy wheel printer then it won't be hard to figure out where the daisy-wheel-printed document came from. Also, it's hard to print convincing counterfeit currency using a daisy wheel printer, which is the main thing the government wants to stop with these tracking dots.
- gus_massa 12y ago
  And probably each daisy well has small differences that make your prints identifiable. One they get you and your daisy well, you have no deniability.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    As I mentioned (typewriters, Stasi) In the old days they'd magnify the printout and compare the characters to the prints that the manufacturers had given them.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  > If you're the only one using daisy wheel printer then it won't be hard to figure out where the daisy-wheel-printed document came from. Yes, that's also an issue I'd considered. > Also, it's hard to print convincing counterfeit currency using a daisy wheel printer, which is the main thing the government wants to stop with these tracking dots. Yes, but that's not why anyone is worried about it. The problem with tracking dots is they mean you can connect documents by the same person.
akavel 12y ago

cmdrfred 12y ago

I wonder if this is the real reason why some printers won't allow you to print in black and white when you run out of color ink.

mark-r 12y ago
I'm pretty sure the reason for that is just to make sure you spend money for more cartridges. It's hard to do counterfeiting in black-and-white.
avn2109 12y ago
That and that they want you to buy more ink.

throwawayexleo 12y ago

These identification dots have been around at least 15 years. Working in a LEO in 1999, I was aware both laser and inkjet printers were traceable then (not just color). For serious enough cases (drugs mostly at that time, the terrorism stuff was strictly post 2001) prints could be sent for technical analysis (probably via 3 letter agency) and details came back (within 24 hours if it was serious enough). No-one seems to have picked up on the more concerning fact that nowadays with internet connected everything, your printer driver can quite easily report in the printer details via your connection (that friendly, 'do you want me to check for updates?' or 'live ink/toner status' tool can do more than what they say and if it's a net connected printer itself, it can do it directly). So now, an IP/location/ISP bill payer can be identified with the printer (even over time if you sell it on). Much better tracking than before when it relied on you filling in and sending off that 'warranty registration' card. Better hope you've got details of who you sold the printer to if it happens that Craigslist John Doe has some other use in mind other than printing vacation photos.

Cowicide 12y ago

Could this be done with jpeg and gif compression? For example, could Adobe's apps export jpegs laced with patterns within the compressed pixels that could be traced back to the owner of the app? And, has anyone checked for this behavior?