16 ms·

American students head to Germany for free college

191 points by carlosgg 12y ago

tsotha 12y ago
How could this possibly make sense to German taxpayers?
- Daishiman 12y ago
  > According to the DAAD, half of foreign students getting a degree in Germany will stay. That's not just in the short term either — 40 percent of students plan on remaining for at least 10 years. In the U.S., only 12 percent of international students opt to stay for even one year That probably makes financial sense. Of course, it doesn't scale, but for the number of people studying right now it's probably a net benefit.
  - yandie 12y ago
    US Visa system is not very friendly to foreign students either.
    - spiritplumber 12y ago
      Yeah. Right now the US offers its educational infrastructure to foreigners to study in, and then destroys most of the good will that this generates in the student by basically kicking them out after graduation. Not sure how this makes sense from either a business or a PR standpoint.
      - anon4 12y ago
        I'm wondering if creating per-state Visas would help this. States that want to be more open to foreigners could potentially fast-track such visas, but getting a full USA citizenship would require jumping through more hoops.
        eru 12y ago
        That sounds like an excellent idea. I wonder what political forces would oppose this?
  - jsonne 12y ago
    Germany has an abysmal fertility rate. It's probably in their best interest to attract young educated workers with subsidized college.
- deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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- jacalata 12y ago
  From the article: >Germany wants these international students here, even though their taxpayers foot the bill. >“Germany is not a country that's growing,” Malone says. “Its population is not growing. They need people, they need immigrants. They want to be a migration country.” >Think about it this way: it’s a global game of collecting talent. All of these students are the trading cards, and the collectors are countries. If a country collects more talent, they'll have an influx of new ideas, new businesses and a better economy.
  - clusterbits 12y ago
    True. There is big discussion on how to pay benefits in the future and how to stay competitive in global markets. To me the only way to solve this two problems is to attract smart people from foreign countries.
    - sz4kerto 12y ago
      Look at Singapore, where 40% of the population is immigrant.
  - adventured 12y ago
    I completely get the premise of drawing talent. I don't agree with the concerns over population numbers itself. You see this fear from Japan, Germany, and much of Europe. Entering into an age that will be dominated by robotics, greater general automation, artificial intelligence, etc., having more people across the board will not be a net benefit. Germany is worrying about this at exactly the wrong time. Germany has vastly expanded their economy since 1970, while adding zero additional people. They'll be able to do exactly the same thing over the next 40 years by leveraging the incredible productivity gains that are inbound right now. No population growth is necessary or desirable; if Germany holds its population steady, and increases economic output through greater productivity, they'll greatly improve the odds that the median standard of living will increase in line.
    - jvienna 12y ago
      The intention in germany is much more to try to keep the population stable (it is currently decreasing). The current development is somewhat frightening regard the german pension insurance system. For a comparison see: http://populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/ http://populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/ http://populationpyramid.net/germany/ http://populationpyramid.net/germany/
- seren 12y ago
  Educating someone from 1 to 20 is not free either. Being able to attract educated people is historically a big competitive advantage of the USA. It is better to get someone who has already graduated, but getting someone about to graduate and contribute to the economy is not bad either.
- omegaham 12y ago
  They'll make it back with the increased business. You're having a large number of people come to Germany, make friendships, and learn the language. Some will stay. Some will do business with German companies even when they move back to the US. Also, the program is selective, which means that you're hopefully only grabbing decent people and not riffraff. This further maximizes your return.
  - davidw 12y ago
    I think riffraff went to the university here in Italy: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=riffraff https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=riffraff :-)
- cJ0th 12y ago
  I don't think it is free for foreigners. It is just that those fees you have to pay (maybe a few hundred Euros per term[0]) are nothing compared to what it costs to attend an US university. However, since more and more Germans want to go to uni some fields of study are jammed with students in recent years. This in turn means that the quality of education goes down (for example: not enough capacities for tutors and not enough actual seats for students) So from that perspective it doesn't make sense for German taxpayers. If capacities are already stressed getting more students doesn't help. On a more human level it is probably beneficial when Germans and Americans form more friendships and thus learn to understand eachothers views of the world. --- [0]"Although you can study in Germany for free at public institutions as an undergraduate, there is a charge per semester for enrolment, confirmation and administration – usually between €150 and €250 (US$170-280) depending on the university. There may be an additional charge of around €100 for a “Semesterticket”, which covers public transport expenses for six months. If you exceed the standard period of study by more than four semesters, you may also face a long-term fee charge, which could be as much as €800 (US$920) per semester." www.topuniversities.com/.../how-much-does-it-cost-study-germany
  - douche 12y ago
    All of these fees combined are peanuts compared to the cost of attending any U.S. public university (I'm most familiar with UMaine and UNH, which is $10-15k, and around $30k for non-state residents, in tuition). Private colleges are often on the order of $35-50k for tuition. It's really outrageous. 35 years ago when my parents were in college, they could make enough money doing typical college-kid jobs (waiting tables, working summers, the same sort of things college students do now), to support themselves AND pay their tuition. I'm a software developer, working full-time, and I don't clear enough money after taxes in a year to pay for a year of tuition at the college I graduated from, unless I were going to be living in a van down by the river and surviving on free pizza provided by student groups.
- sonium 12y ago
  Beside what was already said, one needs to consider that German universities have a much lower expense per student. This is because the universities have a chronic lack of money. This means that little is invested into 'feel good' facilities e.g. university run Gyms / extensive libraries. From my experience they offer little that is not essential to studying, but this doesn't keep them from providing a great education.
  - gigigigihkv 12y ago
    That's contrary to all my experiences. Gym/sports/languages courses/... are easily on par with US private unis, except less expensive.
    - the_rosentotter 12y ago
      Competitive college sports is pretty much non-existent in Europe.
      - revelation 12y ago
        Thats a funny distinction. Competitive sports are not centralized at universities, but of course they exist all the same. What you are saying is that if you want to do competitive sports, you won't get a degree in history of business or other feign courses pros take in the US university sports system.
- sonium 12y ago
  Beside what was already said, one needs to consider that German universities have a much lower expense per student. This is because the universities have a chronic lack of money. This means that little is invested into 'feel good' facilities e.g. university run Gyms / extensive libraries. From my experience they offer little that is not essential to studying, but this doesn't keep them from providing a great education.
- drvd 12y ago
  Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if bad luck happens and getting proper education than on the single only monetary principle "I don't pay taxes!".
  - stingraycharles 12y ago
    Also, you could argue that it is a good investment to have high educated foreigners receive their education in your country: it's like extending your business network on a nation-wide level.
    - allendoerfer 12y ago
      I think so, too. Contacts become contracts.
    - tsotha 12y ago
      Yes, it is like that if you only charge for your model of business expansion is to charge for your product in your own town and give it away for free everywhere else.
  - chli 12y ago
    Where did you get the idea that Swiss are obsessed with not paying taxes ? In fact Switzerland and Germany are very similar in all the aspects you mention.
    - wolfgke 12y ago
      I agrree. Being German, it's my impression that the Swiss are even more honest with taxes than the Germans. The general impression in many countries rather is: The Swiss are very honest with their taxes, but don't care about tax honesty about foreigners in their own countries (getting people to be honest about their taxes is a problem that each country has to solve by itself). This is different from the German mentality - also rather honest, but very missionary about tax honesty in other countries (especially the Greek seem to have a serious problem with this ;-) ). As one says humorously in German "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen." (freely translated with "The world shall recover by the German quiddity.").
- wongarsu 12y ago
  According to the article there are about 100 American Students at the University of Cologne. That should be about 1% of the students. Having 1% more students more who pay exactly as much as domestic students isn't something that concerns me as German taxpayer, even if there would be no benefit for us. If I would have a problem with our budget there would be much bigger fish to fry.
  - Symbiote 12y ago
    When I started at Imperial College London in 2004, about 30% of the students in my class were from China, Taiwan or similar. Many wanted to work in the US, some had applied to US universities. By the time we graduated, after having lived here and with the US tightening its immigration policies, most took jobs in the UK. That was with £17,000+/year fees (for non-EU students), so they were super-rich and also clever. If studying at Cologne is free for them, and in English, that will attract potential students away from Britain. I paid about £1000 year, like all British students, but I'd definitely consider Germany if I was 17 now. Fees for British students have increased to ~£9000/year! My workplace has a very international staff, all bilingual staff's teenage children are pretty much guaranteed to study elsewhere in the EU, with others considering it.
  - th0br0 12y ago
    The University of Cologne has a rather high number of students that are only enrolled there for the Semesterticket (public transportation ticket valid in most of North-Rhine Westfalia) and as such, the official number is slightly below 50000 students if I recall correctly. Compared to that, the 100 students are just 0,2%. The number of "active" students is around 20k I think - so the ratio is still significantly below 1%
    - pluma 12y ago
      To be fair, it's impossible to get anything close to resembling the NRW Ticket (flat fee for unlimited use of regional public transit in all of North-Rhine Westphalia) as a non-student. The closest equivalents are either offered by the local public transit unions (which are limited to the region covered by that public transit union, of which there are a ton in NRW) or the BahnCard 100 (which covers all of Germany -- but not necessarily all local public transit -- and is ridiculously expensive).
- aikah 12y ago
  The question is how could that expensive US education could possibly make sense for americans? In Europe,in most countries, education is virtually free, just look at the cost of law school or med school in France or Belgium for instance. It's what $500 dollars a year at most? Of course there are plenty of private schools in Europe, but even these are usually half the cost of American ones. I graduated in computer science, in France. 4 years of college education cost me, what, 1000$ at most? Now sure, I pay a LOT of taxes. But I know at least some of it goes into education and allow other student like I was to afford a good education. Having stayed in US for a while, while salaries seemed higher I don't think the cost of life is cheaper than in western Europe.
  - doyoulikeworms 12y ago
    Public university used to be cheap. In the 1960's, tuition & fees at a UC school was less than $2000 (2015 dollars) per year. In the 1950's, it was less than $750 per year.[1][2] Today, tuition & fees at a UC will cost you $15,000 per year. In order to completely pay for tuition and fees, the state of California would have to increase revenue $3 billion per year. Or increase tax revenues by just 3%.[1][3] I, as a citizen, feel like our government's priorities have been absolutely abysmal since the 1980's. To me, this level of insanity transcends political ideology. It's just plain dumb not to fix this. > Now sure, I pay a LOT of taxes. But I know at least some of it goes into education and allow other student like I was to afford a good education. Having stayed in US for a while, while salaries seemed higher I don't think the cost of life is cheaper than in western Europe. Cost of living is lower in the US (as a whole) than Western European countries, and median household income adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP) is quite a bit higher in the US.[4][5] That doesn't make any of this sensible, though. Sure, I'd take lower taxes if Californian kids had to pay just a couple thousand more to college than French kids. But $14k more? Insanity. Raise my taxes please. 1. http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-1868/ http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-... 2. http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=84&year1=1956&year2=2015 http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=84&year1=1956&y... 3. http://www.sco.ca.gov/state_finances_101_state_taxes.html http://www.sco.ca.gov/state_finances_101_state_taxes.html 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity#OECD_comparative_price_levels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity#OECD_co...
- golergka 12y ago
  I would gladly pay more taxes if it meant attracting intellectual and ambitious (and you have to be both to explore this kind of opportunity — also, I suspect that you have to pass some exams, right?) people from other countries.
- sauere 12y ago
  The mindset here is different. 1. We have a 20% sales tax, income tax that is usually somewhere between 35%-45%... car taxes, highest energy costs in the world... just taxes everywhere. 2. The overall mindset here is much less libertarian and much more "let the Goverment handle it". 3. Smart brains are needed for the local economy to stay competitive. 4. Another thing to keep in mind: the actual cost for a student isn't really that much money. There are no million dollar sports teams, luxury gyms, technical equipment usually just isn't on the same level...
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise. IIRC this is what happens in the US too (parents having to save for their kids' college education, assuming they actually have money left after paying the bills), which leads to reduced mobility (the poor stay poor)
  - tsotha 12y ago
    >Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise. No, that's not the alternative at all. The alternative would be to have people from other countries pay their own way and provide free education to your own citizens.
    - eru 12y ago
      Isn't it nice that some countries try to transcend the accidents of birth within or beyond an imaginary line?
      - tsotha 12y ago
        Sure, it's nice that the Germans are doing it. I don't want my country doing it, though.
        eru 12y ago
        But you want your country doing it for your countrymen? If yes, why do you care about helping some people who were born inside some invisible line more than others? (If not, that's at least not nationalistic..)
- holri 12y ago
  Maybe they understand that education is a universal good.
Htsthbjig 12y ago
Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. I studied engineering in Europe. When I went to Boston or London to work it was like I was the boss or something because I was much better prepared than Americans or British. But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in any field. The world is controlled by the petrodollar and Americans enjoy lots of benefits as a result. Europe is old and taking risks is so hard here. In Asia it is even harder.
- Pirate-of-SV 12y ago
  > Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. Could you be a little more specific? The size of Europe, America and Asia is too huge for statements like that. There are definitely universities in Europe that are more similar to some in the US than other universities in Europe. I'm a student in Sweden and I have not experienced anything that supports the quote above.
  - Maakuth 12y ago
    It's the same in Finland, at least in universities. If you don't pass your courses, the state stops paying the student benefits[1], but you can stay at the university. There is another, very low number of courses you need to pass every year in order to stay in, but that is very low indeed, it's only meant to keep registers clean of people not studying at all. 1: That's right, Finns are paid to study. I think students in most of the Nordic countries are. edit: formatting
    - userulluipeste 12y ago
      "Finns are paid to study. I think students in most of the Nordic countries are." There are scholarships (all over Europe) that depend on acquiring a minimal number of Bologna-credits, and those (at least in some countries) existed since the foundation of the higher education itself.
Paul_S 12y ago
...and Germany gets the better side of this deal. Unless you overinflate fees and run your education system like a business educating people is a net benefit.
iamjdg 12y ago
I am on a temporary work assignment in Germany (2 years). I would come back in a minute if I wanted to further my education. Its a great country, safe, modern, and residents (permanent or not) get a lot of support from the government. Free university is for the German people, but they extend it to foreigners because Germany needs people and they hope they stay. I've learned a lot in Germany I will take back with me an apply to my work and everyday life (focus, directness, efficiency, attention to detail, basing decisions on first principles). I imagine getting an education here would reflect these principles and be of very high quality. Most German engineers I interact with our exceptional. Germany has an export to import ratio of ~1.2 meaning for every euro they spend, they earn 1.20 euros. They can afford this. The US is less than 1 (perhaps 0.8 or something) and Canada (my home) is about 1 mostly because we have so many natural resources. The benefits one gets in the US and Canada pale in comparison to Germany, it is embarrassing. The US and Canada need to push their export to import ratios higher through innovation and efficiency improvements (real economic growth, not like artificial economic growth based on low interests, real estate speculation, and the financial/banking worlds investment/money magic tricks) in order to be able to afford the benefits a German resident gets.
- tormeh 12y ago
  the ideal export to import ratio is 1, BTW. Anything else is an imbalance and a ticking bomb. The internal trade imbalances in the EU have already blown up once.
  - iamjdg 12y ago
    1? really? i guess you mean reinvesting your net positive export income into efficiency improvements and innovation and maintaining infrastructure? ok, i can agree with that. but one still needs save for a rainy day (emergencies, downturns) so maybe the ideal is slightly greater than 1.
    - glesica 12y ago
      No, because if it is slightly greater than 1 for one country, it must be slightly less than 1 for at least one other country.
stfu 12y ago
As far as I know this has been mostly about boosting "diversity" quotas at German Universities in order to perform better in international rankings. Previously this had been done by rising the amount of students coming from low-income regions (e.g. ex-Russian territory, Asia), so it is certainly a welcome change to see US students making use of that system.
- r3m6 12y ago
  How about: "...to improve academic overall performance" instead of "... in order to perform better in international rankings." Diversity has proven benefits in many cases, I see it in my daily work. It is much more than just a number in a ranking. > low-income regions (e.g. ex-Russian territory, Asia) Asia? Low-income? These times are gone in many places. You need to update your knowledge. Diversity in your workplace could help :-)
  - stfu 12y ago
    You don't find it a "bit" surprising that U.S. students don't even make it in the Top10 countries of origin? http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/Germany/International-Students-In-Germany http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/Germany/Internatio... In regards to the ranking - one of the most important rankings for international Universities is the Times Higher Education World University Rankings. Methodology section: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking/methodology http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... this factor is measured by the ratio of international to domestic students and is worth 2.5 per cent of the overall score. German Universities have a big issue about ranking performances, case and point giving certain Universities a Government issued "elite" title.
- brazzy 12y ago
  Bullshit. University has been tuition-free in Germany for decades, except for some states for a few years recently.
  - k__ 12y ago
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chrido 12y ago
Other European countries are similiar, e.g., Austria € 726,72 per semester for students outside the EU, for EU citizen its free, as long as they are in minimum time http://www.studyinaustria.at/study_in_austria/tuition_fees/ http://www.studyinaustria.at/study_in_austria/tuition_fees/
yodsanklai 12y ago
I wonder if American students fleeing their country to save on education tax is more than anecdotical. BTW, the article mentions Germany, but isn't education cheap in most European countries?
- deleted 12y ago
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  - interdrift 12y ago
    That highly depends on the university and the country.
  - brazzy 12y ago
    Sources? Because I'm pretty sure that's wrong: http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees
    - the_rosentotter 12y ago
      I based this on the rules in the countries that I investigated some time ago (among them Sweden and Denmark), according to your link they seem to be the only ones to charge such high fees for non-residents. Thanks for the correction.
    - pluma 12y ago
      That site's information about Germany is outdated. There was a €500 fee (the legal maximum) for a while after a law was passed that allowed universities to charge it. That was followed by protests and a few years later all universities have completely dropped it. There is a marginal fee (<€300 for most universities) that is mostly used to fund the student council (e.g. services like cafés and various co-operations, like student tickets for regional public transit), but that already existed before. The €500 tuition fee was paid on top of that and directly went to the university itself. The >50% of the regular fees that goes to the student council is also set by the council (e.g. it went up by a few euros in Cologne when the student ticket was extended to all of North-Rhine Westphalia instead of just the local public transit union -- which was decided by a direct vote of the students themselves). Also, the public scholarship (BAföG) AFAIK didn't cover the €500 tuition fee, so some universities advertised student loans offered by publicly owned banks (which would only cover the €500 tuition fee, not the regular base fee). Anyway, the tuition fees were rather short-lived. Except for the distance learning university of Hagen (the only distance learning university in Germany, and the only non-private distance learning higher-education institution in Germany) which charges an even lower base fee but then additionally charges for the course materials (making it slightly more expensive for full-time study), the fees are generally much lower than €500 these days.
DrinkWater 12y ago
I would have killed to get the chance to study in the US. American students are far more complex and broad in their knowledge. And that's a very good thing you shouldn't underestimate. It helps a lot in your career. Germany loves hierarchy and "conservative" thinking. And that is reflected in every aspect of society, even academic education. The main focus is to produce people that Germany needs. We have a shitload of "Fachidioten" here. That's a good thing, and also a bad thing. tl;dr If you want to reach for the stars in your career, study somewhere else.
- _stephan 12y ago
  These broad statements seem ridiculous to me. If you're speaking from personal experience, you should at least add which subject you studied and at which Uni/FH you studied.
  - doyoulikeworms 12y ago
    Agreed. But the German education system isn't like Anglo (e.g., US) systems. 27% of this generation of Germans have post-secondary education, compared to 43% of their American counterparts. Someone explained to me that this is due to Germany's focus on trades and apprenticeship.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - doyoulikeworms 12y ago
        Source? OECD put it at 27% in 2011[1]. If that number is 38% today, then over 2 million Germans earned post-secondary degrees in the last 4 years. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_25%E2%80%9334_year_olds_having_a_tertiary_education_degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_25%E2%80%9...
        creshal 12y ago
personlurking 12y ago
Here's a Reddit /Bestof on the German university application process. It's not exactly free. http://reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/2itsz2/germany_offers_tuitionfree_college_to_all/cl5hwra http://reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/2itsz2/germany_of...
- bpires 12y ago
  I thought it was obvious that there are still going to be fees, but that in comparison to the tens of thousands americans pay in tuition, it's basically free.
  - pluma 12y ago
    To be fair, to a German the tens of thousands Americans pay sound preposterous. The only way we (Germans) rationalize the higher costs in the US is that the quality of education is better -- which doesn't seem to be the case for the majority of universities.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  Well that post took the wind out of my sails. I was browsing the Cologne University website until I saw this comment.
  - eru 12y ago
    Why? Doesn't sound too bad.
darkhorn 12y ago
You can study at METU / Turkey. It is one of the best 100 universities in the world. Very cheap compared to the USA. And it is a state university, founded with the help of the USA during the cold war. http://www.metu.edu.tr/announcement/odtu-among-top-100-universities-world http://www.metu.edu.tr/announcement/odtu-among-top-100-unive... Less than €550 per semester for foreign students (if you are Turkic it is cheaper (might be free), or if you are Turkic country citizen, or if you have graduated from a Turkish high-school in a foreign country etc). http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-amounts http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-amounts Also there is another campus in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which is private (acts like a private). http://international.ncc.metu.edu.tr/tuition-scholarships/ http://international.ncc.metu.edu.tr/tuition-scholarships/
- eru 12y ago
  I've been at METU for Erasmus. It was fun and I recommend it! But do not go for the academic quality. The best courses were just on par with the average course I had at a no-name German university. I don't know how they came up with the top 100 ranking---perhaps it's based on research?
  - darkhorn 12y ago
    Methodology -> Criteria and Weighting -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings#Methodology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_Un... For the academic quality, I don't know foreign universities thus I cannot compare them. But at least I can say that almost all teachers are professors and most of them are idealist. And in order to be an academic member at METU you must get at least one degree (B.S or masters etc) abroad. My teachers were not best teachers but at least they were very knowledgeable at their fields. It is not the best of course, however other Turkish universities are worse than METU. For the teaching quality, I have wished it to be better. May be METU is good for forcing you to study very much in detail, but it is not providing easy to study material and easy to understand teachers.
    - eru 12y ago
mcbetz 12y ago
Yes, there is a massive flow of incoming students, especially here in Berlin and in other large cities (Hamburg, Munich, Cologne). But after graduation, exactly those cities do not offer great job opportunities. What makes our economic system strong are the many small to medium entreprises, often family businesses. And those are seldomly in the nice urban areas but mostly in the southern countryside. So you will see many highly qualified graduates working as waiters or in startups who pay little to nothing - so they can stay in posh Berlin. At the same time companies in the countryside have a very, very hard time to get employees. Apart from that spatial problem, there is one huge drawback: the language. Most of the study programs are still solely taught in German. And the requirements are tough! I had some classes in English and it was totally weird, as there were never more than 2 students who were not German natives. Quality dropped as well, when you're discussing German philosophy in English, obviously.
- eru 12y ago
  Posh Berlin? Exciting perhaps, but not posh. I hope that the startups and competition between them will drive up salaries eventually.
tempodox 12y ago
If the Germans have any sense, they will lift a fee from U.S. students. Taxpayers won't appreciate having their money thrown away just so that aliens can have a free ride.
- bpires 12y ago
  Foreigners have been studying for free in german universities for decades. This is not going to change.
- adaml_623 12y ago
  Just ask yourself if there are any other benefits to having U.S. students studying in your country. Think outside the box. Your comment comes across as quite xenophobic with it's 'aliens can have a free ride'.
  - tempodox 12y ago
    Calling someone xenophobic because they would be unwilling to give away for free what is worth money everywhere else to people who didn't contribute to what they're taking, comes across as quite self-serving.
    - eru 12y ago
      But they ARE willing to do just that. Go figure!
      - tempodox 12y ago
        I can't speak for “them”, only for myself. And I for one disagree.
chrisBob 12y ago
This is an interesting contrast to the US. Germany educates foreigners for free because they want them to stay. In the US it is very hard for someone to stay after going through a publicly funded PhD program. Other than exporting our culture I am not sure what the goal could be.
- eru 12y ago
  It's more than one goal. The visa regime is a complex (and foul) compromise between different political pressure groups.
khabaal 12y ago
As a german who works for a german university, i would like to point out that studying is actually not totally free. Here at the University of applied sciences in Münster, you would have to pay a total 235€ every six month, consisting of a social contribution of 85.44€ and a student body contribution of 145.75€, for which you will get a ticket for free travel by bus or by train inside North Rhine-Westphalia for the whole six month. Some people in here just register because of that ticket. :D To study in germany, you normally just need to prove that you have a specific amount of money to survive, pay for a flat, food and health insurance. And thats it. As the website stated, we need skilled immigrants, because with a birth rate of just 1.3 childs per woman, the germans are slowly dying out, not to mention that our society is getting older and older like the one in japan. Attracting foreign students with a nearly free college is a great and very cheap way of getting highly skilled workers, its makes perfect sense.
- bpires 12y ago
  It is not about it being completely free. The whole point is how 235€ or even 1000€ per semester is nothing compared to tens of thousands americans pay in tuiton. Top universities in the US like MIT and Stanford charge over $40000 per year. With half of that you could comfortably live as a student in Germany for a year with all expenses paid. I live as a student in Germany on 650€/mo. That's less than $10000 a year.
  - k__ 12y ago
    The professors always told us, that the US is much more expensive with their education, but the people know this and have many options to save this money till the children are old enough to study, so it shouldn't be so bad...
    - mhurron 12y ago
      Funny guy.
    - MaximillianII 12y ago
      German comma detected above.
aros 12y ago
Why do people think these services are "free"?
k__ 12y ago
Funny story: The four years I took for my bachelor were the only four years with study-fees in Germany. So I paid more for my degree than the Americans who study here now.
kleiba 12y ago
The CS department at the German university I work for started offering their lectures in English a number of years back. While a very good command of English is not uncommon in other parts of Europe, such as e.g. Scandinavia, this move is remarkable in my opinion because English is (more or less) ubiquitous only in the younger generation in Germany. A lot of middle-aged people do not speak English, or only at a very rudimentary level. Of course you won't have any problems getting around just on English in places like Berlin or Heidelberg, but this effect does not generalize across the board. So the biggest problem I see with moving to English within the German higher education system is that it creates the illusion that you don't really need to speak German to live in that country. But at the university, you live inside a bubble: some of my coworkers have come here from other countries five or more years ago, and still speak hardly any German. And that's fine because the working language in our department is de facto English. There are even German classes that the university offers and that some of my coworkers took, but since they never really needed it inside the bubble, their success at learning German has remained rather humble. Now, one of my coworker wants to move on from academia and has been looking for jobs -- IT-related, that is. He's (over?)-specialized (with his PhD almost finished) in a specific area (speech signal analysis), but basically speaks no German. He's having a really hard time getting any reactions at all to his job applications. Most of the time, the companies do not even send rejection notes. I've been helping him a little bit with this, and given his credentials, I really find it difficult to understand why he cannot even get to the interview stage -- except for his lack of German. The big problem is: if he cannot find something very soon, his visa will expire and he will be forced to leave the country. He's got a wife and two young daughters, the younger one of which was 2 years old when the family came to Germany. She's now 7 -- Germany is the country she grew up in, and she might be forced to leave it soon and move to the country of her father. Ironically, she doesn't even speak her parents' language perfectly. So, there is a caveat when studying in Germany if your goal is to start a life here afterwards. Language matters. What I cannot understand at all in this matter, though, is that by offering university courses in English and not requiring students to acquire very good German skills as well, Germany is basically investing a lot of (tax) money in the education of people who are more or less guaranteed to leave again when they're done with their studies. The return of investment is thus pretty low... you could say, almost non-existent.
grkvlt 12y ago
> [The] German admissions process [...] is vastly different than it is in the United States [...] It's much more transparent, and it is entirely academic based [...] There are no recommendations or extensive resumes. This is exactly the way University admission should be handled. It's much the same throughout Europe and the UK. I would hate to have had to go through the hoop jumping exercise of the US college admission process with all of the emphasis on extracurricular activities and proving that I'm the 'right kind of person' for them. To apply in the UK, I sent a form with my exam results, and that was it. I could have added a 'personal essay' but didn't even bother. Not sure if this has changed much, but I hope it hasn't...
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  How does it handle things like schools that can afford dedicated SAT (or German equivalent) prep classes compared to those that can't?
  - grkvlt 12y ago
    The entry criteria aren't based on something like the SAT, although International Baccelaureate perhaps comes close in Europe? Not sure, maybe someone else can explain? So there are no prep classes or anything like that in the UK. Everyone sits the same set of exams (modulo being Scottish or English/Welsh/NI, which have different types of qualification) and those results dictate whether you can go to University or not. I suppose you could study more if you wanted?
    - ryandrake 12y ago
      Surely anywhere there are exams, there are rich parents paying for exam prep in order to gain an advantage.
      - chronial 12y ago
        In Germany, university admission is based on your final grades in school, which are an accumulation of your grades of the last two years. Rich parents can of course help their kids be better in school, but there is no efficient exam prepping.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
Quite frankly, Germany is eating the US' lunch when it comes to advanced Computer Vision research and applications. My guess is that it's because of things like this. So, that is a tough thing for us when recruiting because they have so many easier options over there instead of working, even remote, for people in the US.
cabinpark 12y ago
I am doing a PhD here in Germany and I absolutely love it. It's completely free (except for the 300 euro fee per semester, but that includes the UBahn ticket which is like 200 of the 300 fee and is worth it) and I actually get paid really, really well. Plus PhDs are only 3 years and I don't have to deal with TAing and can just research. And because I am a student, I don't have pay taxes because my salary is considered a "stipendium" or whatever. It's quite nice. And where I am living, Frankfurt, which is apparently very expensive, is still cheap to me. But, as others have said in this thread, there are drawbacks, which have been addressed. But that's true of anything anywhere. So overall I highly recommend Germany for studies. Plus German is just a cool language to know as well.
malaya21 12y ago
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fred_is_fred 12y ago
You can go to college for free and have a great chance to improve your life, then you major in North American studies. WTF is that.

191 points by carlosgg 12y ago

tsotha 12y ago

How could this possibly make sense to German taxpayers?

Daishiman 12y ago
> According to the DAAD, half of foreign students getting a degree in Germany will stay. That's not just in the short term either — 40 percent of students plan on remaining for at least 10 years. In the U.S., only 12 percent of international students opt to stay for even one year That probably makes financial sense. Of course, it doesn't scale, but for the number of people studying right now it's probably a net benefit.
- yandie 12y ago
  US Visa system is not very friendly to foreign students either.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    Yeah. Right now the US offers its educational infrastructure to foreigners to study in, and then destroys most of the good will that this generates in the student by basically kicking them out after graduation. Not sure how this makes sense from either a business or a PR standpoint.
    - anon4 12y ago
      I'm wondering if creating per-state Visas would help this. States that want to be more open to foreigners could potentially fast-track such visas, but getting a full USA citizenship would require jumping through more hoops.
      - eru 12y ago
        That sounds like an excellent idea. I wonder what political forces would oppose this?
- jsonne 12y ago
  Germany has an abysmal fertility rate. It's probably in their best interest to attract young educated workers with subsidized college.
deleted 12y ago
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deleted 12y ago
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jacalata 12y ago
From the article: >Germany wants these international students here, even though their taxpayers foot the bill. >“Germany is not a country that's growing,” Malone says. “Its population is not growing. They need people, they need immigrants. They want to be a migration country.” >Think about it this way: it’s a global game of collecting talent. All of these students are the trading cards, and the collectors are countries. If a country collects more talent, they'll have an influx of new ideas, new businesses and a better economy.
- clusterbits 12y ago
  True. There is big discussion on how to pay benefits in the future and how to stay competitive in global markets. To me the only way to solve this two problems is to attract smart people from foreign countries.
  - sz4kerto 12y ago
    Look at Singapore, where 40% of the population is immigrant.
- adventured 12y ago
  I completely get the premise of drawing talent. I don't agree with the concerns over population numbers itself. You see this fear from Japan, Germany, and much of Europe. Entering into an age that will be dominated by robotics, greater general automation, artificial intelligence, etc., having more people across the board will not be a net benefit. Germany is worrying about this at exactly the wrong time. Germany has vastly expanded their economy since 1970, while adding zero additional people. They'll be able to do exactly the same thing over the next 40 years by leveraging the incredible productivity gains that are inbound right now. No population growth is necessary or desirable; if Germany holds its population steady, and increases economic output through greater productivity, they'll greatly improve the odds that the median standard of living will increase in line.
  - jvienna 12y ago
    The intention in germany is much more to try to keep the population stable (it is currently decreasing). The current development is somewhat frightening regard the german pension insurance system. For a comparison see: http://populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/ http://populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/ http://populationpyramid.net/germany/ http://populationpyramid.net/germany/
seren 12y ago
Educating someone from 1 to 20 is not free either. Being able to attract educated people is historically a big competitive advantage of the USA. It is better to get someone who has already graduated, but getting someone about to graduate and contribute to the economy is not bad either.
omegaham 12y ago
They'll make it back with the increased business. You're having a large number of people come to Germany, make friendships, and learn the language. Some will stay. Some will do business with German companies even when they move back to the US. Also, the program is selective, which means that you're hopefully only grabbing decent people and not riffraff. This further maximizes your return.
- davidw 12y ago
  I think riffraff went to the university here in Italy: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=riffraff https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=riffraff :-)
cJ0th 12y ago
I don't think it is free for foreigners. It is just that those fees you have to pay (maybe a few hundred Euros per term[0]) are nothing compared to what it costs to attend an US university. However, since more and more Germans want to go to uni some fields of study are jammed with students in recent years. This in turn means that the quality of education goes down (for example: not enough capacities for tutors and not enough actual seats for students) So from that perspective it doesn't make sense for German taxpayers. If capacities are already stressed getting more students doesn't help. On a more human level it is probably beneficial when Germans and Americans form more friendships and thus learn to understand eachothers views of the world. --- [0]"Although you can study in Germany for free at public institutions as an undergraduate, there is a charge per semester for enrolment, confirmation and administration – usually between €150 and €250 (US$170-280) depending on the university. There may be an additional charge of around €100 for a “Semesterticket”, which covers public transport expenses for six months. If you exceed the standard period of study by more than four semesters, you may also face a long-term fee charge, which could be as much as €800 (US$920) per semester." www.topuniversities.com/.../how-much-does-it-cost-study-germany
- douche 12y ago
  All of these fees combined are peanuts compared to the cost of attending any U.S. public university (I'm most familiar with UMaine and UNH, which is $10-15k, and around $30k for non-state residents, in tuition). Private colleges are often on the order of $35-50k for tuition. It's really outrageous. 35 years ago when my parents were in college, they could make enough money doing typical college-kid jobs (waiting tables, working summers, the same sort of things college students do now), to support themselves AND pay their tuition. I'm a software developer, working full-time, and I don't clear enough money after taxes in a year to pay for a year of tuition at the college I graduated from, unless I were going to be living in a van down by the river and surviving on free pizza provided by student groups.
sonium 12y ago
Beside what was already said, one needs to consider that German universities have a much lower expense per student. This is because the universities have a chronic lack of money. This means that little is invested into 'feel good' facilities e.g. university run Gyms / extensive libraries. From my experience they offer little that is not essential to studying, but this doesn't keep them from providing a great education.
- gigigigihkv 12y ago
  That's contrary to all my experiences. Gym/sports/languages courses/... are easily on par with US private unis, except less expensive.
  - the_rosentotter 12y ago
    Competitive college sports is pretty much non-existent in Europe.
    - revelation 12y ago
      Thats a funny distinction. Competitive sports are not centralized at universities, but of course they exist all the same. What you are saying is that if you want to do competitive sports, you won't get a degree in history of business or other feign courses pros take in the US university sports system.
sonium 12y ago
Beside what was already said, one needs to consider that German universities have a much lower expense per student. This is because the universities have a chronic lack of money. This means that little is invested into 'feel good' facilities e.g. university run Gyms / extensive libraries. From my experience they offer little that is not essential to studying, but this doesn't keep them from providing a great education.
drvd 12y ago
Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if bad luck happens and getting proper education than on the single only monetary principle "I don't pay taxes!".
- stingraycharles 12y ago
  Also, you could argue that it is a good investment to have high educated foreigners receive their education in your country: it's like extending your business network on a nation-wide level.
  - allendoerfer 12y ago
    I think so, too. Contacts become contracts.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    Yes, it is like that if you only charge for your model of business expansion is to charge for your product in your own town and give it away for free everywhere else.
- chli 12y ago
  Where did you get the idea that Swiss are obsessed with not paying taxes ? In fact Switzerland and Germany are very similar in all the aspects you mention.
  - wolfgke 12y ago
    I agrree. Being German, it's my impression that the Swiss are even more honest with taxes than the Germans. The general impression in many countries rather is: The Swiss are very honest with their taxes, but don't care about tax honesty about foreigners in their own countries (getting people to be honest about their taxes is a problem that each country has to solve by itself). This is different from the German mentality - also rather honest, but very missionary about tax honesty in other countries (especially the Greek seem to have a serious problem with this ;-) ). As one says humorously in German "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen." (freely translated with "The world shall recover by the German quiddity.").
wongarsu 12y ago
According to the article there are about 100 American Students at the University of Cologne. That should be about 1% of the students. Having 1% more students more who pay exactly as much as domestic students isn't something that concerns me as German taxpayer, even if there would be no benefit for us. If I would have a problem with our budget there would be much bigger fish to fry.
- Symbiote 12y ago
  When I started at Imperial College London in 2004, about 30% of the students in my class were from China, Taiwan or similar. Many wanted to work in the US, some had applied to US universities. By the time we graduated, after having lived here and with the US tightening its immigration policies, most took jobs in the UK. That was with £17,000+/year fees (for non-EU students), so they were super-rich and also clever. If studying at Cologne is free for them, and in English, that will attract potential students away from Britain. I paid about £1000 year, like all British students, but I'd definitely consider Germany if I was 17 now. Fees for British students have increased to ~£9000/year! My workplace has a very international staff, all bilingual staff's teenage children are pretty much guaranteed to study elsewhere in the EU, with others considering it.
- th0br0 12y ago
  The University of Cologne has a rather high number of students that are only enrolled there for the Semesterticket (public transportation ticket valid in most of North-Rhine Westfalia) and as such, the official number is slightly below 50000 students if I recall correctly. Compared to that, the 100 students are just 0,2%. The number of "active" students is around 20k I think - so the ratio is still significantly below 1%
  - pluma 12y ago
    To be fair, it's impossible to get anything close to resembling the NRW Ticket (flat fee for unlimited use of regional public transit in all of North-Rhine Westphalia) as a non-student. The closest equivalents are either offered by the local public transit unions (which are limited to the region covered by that public transit union, of which there are a ton in NRW) or the BahnCard 100 (which covers all of Germany -- but not necessarily all local public transit -- and is ridiculously expensive).
aikah 12y ago
The question is how could that expensive US education could possibly make sense for americans? In Europe,in most countries, education is virtually free, just look at the cost of law school or med school in France or Belgium for instance. It's what $500 dollars a year at most? Of course there are plenty of private schools in Europe, but even these are usually half the cost of American ones. I graduated in computer science, in France. 4 years of college education cost me, what, 1000$ at most? Now sure, I pay a LOT of taxes. But I know at least some of it goes into education and allow other student like I was to afford a good education. Having stayed in US for a while, while salaries seemed higher I don't think the cost of life is cheaper than in western Europe.
- doyoulikeworms 12y ago
  Public university used to be cheap. In the 1960's, tuition & fees at a UC school was less than $2000 (2015 dollars) per year. In the 1950's, it was less than $750 per year.[1][2] Today, tuition & fees at a UC will cost you $15,000 per year. In order to completely pay for tuition and fees, the state of California would have to increase revenue $3 billion per year. Or increase tax revenues by just 3%.[1][3] I, as a citizen, feel like our government's priorities have been absolutely abysmal since the 1980's. To me, this level of insanity transcends political ideology. It's just plain dumb not to fix this. > Now sure, I pay a LOT of taxes. But I know at least some of it goes into education and allow other student like I was to afford a good education. Having stayed in US for a while, while salaries seemed higher I don't think the cost of life is cheaper than in western Europe. Cost of living is lower in the US (as a whole) than Western European countries, and median household income adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP) is quite a bit higher in the US.[4][5] That doesn't make any of this sensible, though. Sure, I'd take lower taxes if Californian kids had to pay just a couple thousand more to college than French kids. But $14k more? Insanity. Raise my taxes please. 1. http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-1868/ http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-... 2. http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=84&year1=1956&year2=2015 http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=84&year1=1956&y... 3. http://www.sco.ca.gov/state_finances_101_state_taxes.html http://www.sco.ca.gov/state_finances_101_state_taxes.html 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity#OECD_comparative_price_levels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity#OECD_co...
golergka 12y ago
I would gladly pay more taxes if it meant attracting intellectual and ambitious (and you have to be both to explore this kind of opportunity — also, I suspect that you have to pass some exams, right?) people from other countries.
sauere 12y ago
The mindset here is different. 1. We have a 20% sales tax, income tax that is usually somewhere between 35%-45%... car taxes, highest energy costs in the world... just taxes everywhere. 2. The overall mindset here is much less libertarian and much more "let the Goverment handle it". 3. Smart brains are needed for the local economy to stay competitive. 4. Another thing to keep in mind: the actual cost for a student isn't really that much money. There are no million dollar sports teams, luxury gyms, technical equipment usually just isn't on the same level...
Cthulhu_ 12y ago
Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise. IIRC this is what happens in the US too (parents having to save for their kids' college education, assuming they actually have money left after paying the bills), which leads to reduced mobility (the poor stay poor)
- tsotha 12y ago
  >Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise. No, that's not the alternative at all. The alternative would be to have people from other countries pay their own way and provide free education to your own citizens.
  - eru 12y ago
    Isn't it nice that some countries try to transcend the accidents of birth within or beyond an imaginary line?
    - tsotha 12y ago
      Sure, it's nice that the Germans are doing it. I don't want my country doing it, though.
      - eru 12y ago
        But you want your country doing it for your countrymen? If yes, why do you care about helping some people who were born inside some invisible line more than others? (If not, that's at least not nationalistic..)
holri 12y ago
Maybe they understand that education is a universal good.

Htsthbjig 12y ago

Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. I studied engineering in Europe. When I went to Boston or London to work it was like I was the boss or something because I was much better prepared than Americans or British. But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in any field. The world is controlled by the petrodollar and Americans enjoy lots of benefits as a result. Europe is old and taking risks is so hard here. In Asia it is even harder.

Pirate-of-SV 12y ago
> Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. Could you be a little more specific? The size of Europe, America and Asia is too huge for statements like that. There are definitely universities in Europe that are more similar to some in the US than other universities in Europe. I'm a student in Sweden and I have not experienced anything that supports the quote above.
- Maakuth 12y ago
  It's the same in Finland, at least in universities. If you don't pass your courses, the state stops paying the student benefits[1], but you can stay at the university. There is another, very low number of courses you need to pass every year in order to stay in, but that is very low indeed, it's only meant to keep registers clean of people not studying at all. 1: That's right, Finns are paid to study. I think students in most of the Nordic countries are. edit: formatting
  - userulluipeste 12y ago
    "Finns are paid to study. I think students in most of the Nordic countries are." There are scholarships (all over Europe) that depend on acquiring a minimal number of Bologna-credits, and those (at least in some countries) existed since the foundation of the higher education itself.

Paul_S 12y ago

...and Germany gets the better side of this deal. Unless you overinflate fees and run your education system like a business educating people is a net benefit.

iamjdg 12y ago

I am on a temporary work assignment in Germany (2 years). I would come back in a minute if I wanted to further my education. Its a great country, safe, modern, and residents (permanent or not) get a lot of support from the government. Free university is for the German people, but they extend it to foreigners because Germany needs people and they hope they stay. I've learned a lot in Germany I will take back with me an apply to my work and everyday life (focus, directness, efficiency, attention to detail, basing decisions on first principles). I imagine getting an education here would reflect these principles and be of very high quality. Most German engineers I interact with our exceptional. Germany has an export to import ratio of ~1.2 meaning for every euro they spend, they earn 1.20 euros. They can afford this. The US is less than 1 (perhaps 0.8 or something) and Canada (my home) is about 1 mostly because we have so many natural resources. The benefits one gets in the US and Canada pale in comparison to Germany, it is embarrassing. The US and Canada need to push their export to import ratios higher through innovation and efficiency improvements (real economic growth, not like artificial economic growth based on low interests, real estate speculation, and the financial/banking worlds investment/money magic tricks) in order to be able to afford the benefits a German resident gets.

tormeh 12y ago
the ideal export to import ratio is 1, BTW. Anything else is an imbalance and a ticking bomb. The internal trade imbalances in the EU have already blown up once.
- iamjdg 12y ago
  1? really? i guess you mean reinvesting your net positive export income into efficiency improvements and innovation and maintaining infrastructure? ok, i can agree with that. but one still needs save for a rainy day (emergencies, downturns) so maybe the ideal is slightly greater than 1.
  - glesica 12y ago
    No, because if it is slightly greater than 1 for one country, it must be slightly less than 1 for at least one other country.

stfu 12y ago

As far as I know this has been mostly about boosting "diversity" quotas at German Universities in order to perform better in international rankings. Previously this had been done by rising the amount of students coming from low-income regions (e.g. ex-Russian territory, Asia), so it is certainly a welcome change to see US students making use of that system.

r3m6 12y ago
How about: "...to improve academic overall performance" instead of "... in order to perform better in international rankings." Diversity has proven benefits in many cases, I see it in my daily work. It is much more than just a number in a ranking. > low-income regions (e.g. ex-Russian territory, Asia) Asia? Low-income? These times are gone in many places. You need to update your knowledge. Diversity in your workplace could help :-)
- stfu 12y ago
  You don't find it a "bit" surprising that U.S. students don't even make it in the Top10 countries of origin? http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/Germany/International-Students-In-Germany http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/Germany/Internatio... In regards to the ranking - one of the most important rankings for international Universities is the Times Higher Education World University Rankings. Methodology section: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking/methodology http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... this factor is measured by the ratio of international to domestic students and is worth 2.5 per cent of the overall score. German Universities have a big issue about ranking performances, case and point giving certain Universities a Government issued "elite" title.
brazzy 12y ago
Bullshit. University has been tuition-free in Germany for decades, except for some states for a few years recently.
- k__ 12y ago

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chrido 12y ago

Other European countries are similiar, e.g., Austria € 726,72 per semester for students outside the EU, for EU citizen its free, as long as they are in minimum time http://www.studyinaustria.at/study_in_austria/tuition_fees/ http://www.studyinaustria.at/study_in_austria/tuition_fees/

yodsanklai 12y ago

I wonder if American students fleeing their country to save on education tax is more than anecdotical. BTW, the article mentions Germany, but isn't education cheap in most European countries?

deleted 12y ago
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- interdrift 12y ago
  That highly depends on the university and the country.
- brazzy 12y ago
  Sources? Because I'm pretty sure that's wrong: http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees
  - the_rosentotter 12y ago
    I based this on the rules in the countries that I investigated some time ago (among them Sweden and Denmark), according to your link they seem to be the only ones to charge such high fees for non-residents. Thanks for the correction.
  - pluma 12y ago
    That site's information about Germany is outdated. There was a €500 fee (the legal maximum) for a while after a law was passed that allowed universities to charge it. That was followed by protests and a few years later all universities have completely dropped it. There is a marginal fee (<€300 for most universities) that is mostly used to fund the student council (e.g. services like cafés and various co-operations, like student tickets for regional public transit), but that already existed before. The €500 tuition fee was paid on top of that and directly went to the university itself. The >50% of the regular fees that goes to the student council is also set by the council (e.g. it went up by a few euros in Cologne when the student ticket was extended to all of North-Rhine Westphalia instead of just the local public transit union -- which was decided by a direct vote of the students themselves). Also, the public scholarship (BAföG) AFAIK didn't cover the €500 tuition fee, so some universities advertised student loans offered by publicly owned banks (which would only cover the €500 tuition fee, not the regular base fee). Anyway, the tuition fees were rather short-lived. Except for the distance learning university of Hagen (the only distance learning university in Germany, and the only non-private distance learning higher-education institution in Germany) which charges an even lower base fee but then additionally charges for the course materials (making it slightly more expensive for full-time study), the fees are generally much lower than €500 these days.

DrinkWater 12y ago

I would have killed to get the chance to study in the US. American students are far more complex and broad in their knowledge. And that's a very good thing you shouldn't underestimate. It helps a lot in your career. Germany loves hierarchy and "conservative" thinking. And that is reflected in every aspect of society, even academic education. The main focus is to produce people that Germany needs. We have a shitload of "Fachidioten" here. That's a good thing, and also a bad thing. tl;dr If you want to reach for the stars in your career, study somewhere else.

_stephan 12y ago
These broad statements seem ridiculous to me. If you're speaking from personal experience, you should at least add which subject you studied and at which Uni/FH you studied.
- doyoulikeworms 12y ago
  Agreed. But the German education system isn't like Anglo (e.g., US) systems. 27% of this generation of Germans have post-secondary education, compared to 43% of their American counterparts. Someone explained to me that this is due to Germany's focus on trades and apprenticeship.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - doyoulikeworms 12y ago
      Source? OECD put it at 27% in 2011[1]. If that number is 38% today, then over 2 million Germans earned post-secondary degrees in the last 4 years. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_25%E2%80%9334_year_olds_having_a_tertiary_education_degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_25%E2%80%9...
      - creshal 12y ago

personlurking 12y ago

Here's a Reddit /Bestof on the German university application process. It's not exactly free. http://reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/2itsz2/germany_offers_tuitionfree_college_to_all/cl5hwra http://reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/2itsz2/germany_of...

bpires 12y ago
I thought it was obvious that there are still going to be fees, but that in comparison to the tens of thousands americans pay in tuition, it's basically free.
- pluma 12y ago
  To be fair, to a German the tens of thousands Americans pay sound preposterous. The only way we (Germans) rationalize the higher costs in the US is that the quality of education is better -- which doesn't seem to be the case for the majority of universities.
xtrumanx 12y ago
Well that post took the wind out of my sails. I was browsing the Cologne University website until I saw this comment.
- eru 12y ago
  Why? Doesn't sound too bad.

darkhorn 12y ago

You can study at METU / Turkey. It is one of the best 100 universities in the world. Very cheap compared to the USA. And it is a state university, founded with the help of the USA during the cold war. http://www.metu.edu.tr/announcement/odtu-among-top-100-universities-world http://www.metu.edu.tr/announcement/odtu-among-top-100-unive... Less than €550 per semester for foreign students (if you are Turkic it is cheaper (might be free), or if you are Turkic country citizen, or if you have graduated from a Turkish high-school in a foreign country etc). http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-amounts http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-amounts Also there is another campus in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which is private (acts like a private). http://international.ncc.metu.edu.tr/tuition-scholarships/ http://international.ncc.metu.edu.tr/tuition-scholarships/

eru 12y ago
I've been at METU for Erasmus. It was fun and I recommend it! But do not go for the academic quality. The best courses were just on par with the average course I had at a no-name German university. I don't know how they came up with the top 100 ranking---perhaps it's based on research?
- darkhorn 12y ago
  Methodology -> Criteria and Weighting -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings#Methodology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_Un... For the academic quality, I don't know foreign universities thus I cannot compare them. But at least I can say that almost all teachers are professors and most of them are idealist. And in order to be an academic member at METU you must get at least one degree (B.S or masters etc) abroad. My teachers were not best teachers but at least they were very knowledgeable at their fields. It is not the best of course, however other Turkish universities are worse than METU. For the teaching quality, I have wished it to be better. May be METU is good for forcing you to study very much in detail, but it is not providing easy to study material and easy to understand teachers.
  - eru 12y ago

mcbetz 12y ago

Yes, there is a massive flow of incoming students, especially here in Berlin and in other large cities (Hamburg, Munich, Cologne). But after graduation, exactly those cities do not offer great job opportunities. What makes our economic system strong are the many small to medium entreprises, often family businesses. And those are seldomly in the nice urban areas but mostly in the southern countryside. So you will see many highly qualified graduates working as waiters or in startups who pay little to nothing - so they can stay in posh Berlin. At the same time companies in the countryside have a very, very hard time to get employees. Apart from that spatial problem, there is one huge drawback: the language. Most of the study programs are still solely taught in German. And the requirements are tough! I had some classes in English and it was totally weird, as there were never more than 2 students who were not German natives. Quality dropped as well, when you're discussing German philosophy in English, obviously.

eru 12y ago
Posh Berlin? Exciting perhaps, but not posh. I hope that the startups and competition between them will drive up salaries eventually.

tempodox 12y ago

If the Germans have any sense, they will lift a fee from U.S. students. Taxpayers won't appreciate having their money thrown away just so that aliens can have a free ride.

bpires 12y ago
Foreigners have been studying for free in german universities for decades. This is not going to change.
adaml_623 12y ago
Just ask yourself if there are any other benefits to having U.S. students studying in your country. Think outside the box. Your comment comes across as quite xenophobic with it's 'aliens can have a free ride'.
- tempodox 12y ago
  Calling someone xenophobic because they would be unwilling to give away for free what is worth money everywhere else to people who didn't contribute to what they're taking, comes across as quite self-serving.
  - eru 12y ago
    But they ARE willing to do just that. Go figure!
    - tempodox 12y ago
      I can't speak for “them”, only for myself. And I for one disagree.

chrisBob 12y ago

This is an interesting contrast to the US. Germany educates foreigners for free because they want them to stay. In the US it is very hard for someone to stay after going through a publicly funded PhD program. Other than exporting our culture I am not sure what the goal could be.

eru 12y ago
It's more than one goal. The visa regime is a complex (and foul) compromise between different political pressure groups.

khabaal 12y ago

As a german who works for a german university, i would like to point out that studying is actually not totally free. Here at the University of applied sciences in Münster, you would have to pay a total 235€ every six month, consisting of a social contribution of 85.44€ and a student body contribution of 145.75€, for which you will get a ticket for free travel by bus or by train inside North Rhine-Westphalia for the whole six month. Some people in here just register because of that ticket. :D To study in germany, you normally just need to prove that you have a specific amount of money to survive, pay for a flat, food and health insurance. And thats it. As the website stated, we need skilled immigrants, because with a birth rate of just 1.3 childs per woman, the germans are slowly dying out, not to mention that our society is getting older and older like the one in japan. Attracting foreign students with a nearly free college is a great and very cheap way of getting highly skilled workers, its makes perfect sense.

bpires 12y ago
It is not about it being completely free. The whole point is how 235€ or even 1000€ per semester is nothing compared to tens of thousands americans pay in tuiton. Top universities in the US like MIT and Stanford charge over $40000 per year. With half of that you could comfortably live as a student in Germany for a year with all expenses paid. I live as a student in Germany on 650€/mo. That's less than $10000 a year.
- k__ 12y ago
  The professors always told us, that the US is much more expensive with their education, but the people know this and have many options to save this money till the children are old enough to study, so it shouldn't be so bad...
  - mhurron 12y ago
    Funny guy.
  - MaximillianII 12y ago
    German comma detected above.

aros 12y ago

Why do people think these services are "free"?

k__ 12y ago

Funny story: The four years I took for my bachelor were the only four years with study-fees in Germany. So I paid more for my degree than the Americans who study here now.

kleiba 12y ago

The CS department at the German university I work for started offering their lectures in English a number of years back. While a very good command of English is not uncommon in other parts of Europe, such as e.g. Scandinavia, this move is remarkable in my opinion because English is (more or less) ubiquitous only in the younger generation in Germany. A lot of middle-aged people do not speak English, or only at a very rudimentary level. Of course you won't have any problems getting around just on English in places like Berlin or Heidelberg, but this effect does not generalize across the board. So the biggest problem I see with moving to English within the German higher education system is that it creates the illusion that you don't really need to speak German to live in that country. But at the university, you live inside a bubble: some of my coworkers have come here from other countries five or more years ago, and still speak hardly any German. And that's fine because the working language in our department is de facto English. There are even German classes that the university offers and that some of my coworkers took, but since they never really needed it inside the bubble, their success at learning German has remained rather humble. Now, one of my coworker wants to move on from academia and has been looking for jobs -- IT-related, that is. He's (over?)-specialized (with his PhD almost finished) in a specific area (speech signal analysis), but basically speaks no German. He's having a really hard time getting any reactions at all to his job applications. Most of the time, the companies do not even send rejection notes. I've been helping him a little bit with this, and given his credentials, I really find it difficult to understand why he cannot even get to the interview stage -- except for his lack of German. The big problem is: if he cannot find something very soon, his visa will expire and he will be forced to leave the country. He's got a wife and two young daughters, the younger one of which was 2 years old when the family came to Germany. She's now 7 -- Germany is the country she grew up in, and she might be forced to leave it soon and move to the country of her father. Ironically, she doesn't even speak her parents' language perfectly. So, there is a caveat when studying in Germany if your goal is to start a life here afterwards. Language matters. What I cannot understand at all in this matter, though, is that by offering university courses in English and not requiring students to acquire very good German skills as well, Germany is basically investing a lot of (tax) money in the education of people who are more or less guaranteed to leave again when they're done with their studies. The return of investment is thus pretty low... you could say, almost non-existent.

grkvlt 12y ago

> [The] German admissions process [...] is vastly different than it is in the United States [...] It's much more transparent, and it is entirely academic based [...] There are no recommendations or extensive resumes. This is exactly the way University admission should be handled. It's much the same throughout Europe and the UK. I would hate to have had to go through the hoop jumping exercise of the US college admission process with all of the emphasis on extracurricular activities and proving that I'm the 'right kind of person' for them. To apply in the UK, I sent a form with my exam results, and that was it. I could have added a 'personal essay' but didn't even bother. Not sure if this has changed much, but I hope it hasn't...

Lawtonfogle 12y ago
How does it handle things like schools that can afford dedicated SAT (or German equivalent) prep classes compared to those that can't?
- grkvlt 12y ago
  The entry criteria aren't based on something like the SAT, although International Baccelaureate perhaps comes close in Europe? Not sure, maybe someone else can explain? So there are no prep classes or anything like that in the UK. Everyone sits the same set of exams (modulo being Scottish or English/Welsh/NI, which have different types of qualification) and those results dictate whether you can go to University or not. I suppose you could study more if you wanted?
  - ryandrake 12y ago
    Surely anywhere there are exams, there are rich parents paying for exam prep in order to gain an advantage.
    - chronial 12y ago
      In Germany, university admission is based on your final grades in school, which are an accumulation of your grades of the last two years. Rich parents can of course help their kids be better in school, but there is no efficient exam prepping.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

Quite frankly, Germany is eating the US' lunch when it comes to advanced Computer Vision research and applications. My guess is that it's because of things like this. So, that is a tough thing for us when recruiting because they have so many easier options over there instead of working, even remote, for people in the US.

cabinpark 12y ago

I am doing a PhD here in Germany and I absolutely love it. It's completely free (except for the 300 euro fee per semester, but that includes the UBahn ticket which is like 200 of the 300 fee and is worth it) and I actually get paid really, really well. Plus PhDs are only 3 years and I don't have to deal with TAing and can just research. And because I am a student, I don't have pay taxes because my salary is considered a "stipendium" or whatever. It's quite nice. And where I am living, Frankfurt, which is apparently very expensive, is still cheap to me. But, as others have said in this thread, there are drawbacks, which have been addressed. But that's true of anything anywhere. So overall I highly recommend Germany for studies. Plus German is just a cool language to know as well.

malaya21 12y ago

fred_is_fred 12y ago

You can go to college for free and have a great chance to improve your life, then you major in North American studies. WTF is that.