12 ms·

The decline of Vancouver

165 points by mathattack 12y ago

larsiusprime 12y ago
Sounds like Vancouver could use a little Georgism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
- koenigdavidmj 12y ago
  Or as a simpler, more politically palatable approximation, set up a pied-à-terre property tax for residential properties above a certain value that are lived in for less than three months per year.
  - desdiv 12y ago
    Couldn't the absentee owners just rent the properties out to dodge that?
    - wvenable 12y ago
      But that would increase the number of rental properties, theoretically drive down rents, and then possibly even decrease housing prices.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        niwri 12y ago
        That is really low for Vancouver. I don't know anyone in a 1 bedroom in the city centre that pays ~$1400 CAD. The lowest I've heard from my co-workers is ~$1650 CAD, going all the way up to ~$2100.
        purewater 12y ago
        Even 2100 CAD ($1670 USD) is about half of San Francisco 1 bedroom rent. His post is still correct in terms of ratios. http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/03/mapping_the_median_rent_of_a_onebedroom_in_san_francisco.php http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/03/mapping_the_median_...
        robotresearcher 12y ago
        There are lots of well paid jobs in SF. Not so in Vancouver.
        serge2k 12y ago
        Yeah, but you make 50-100% more in SF.
        kennywinker 12y ago
        Experientially, Vancouver has high rental prices, and a shortage of rental properties on the lower end. I don't think the numbers reported by the site you linked to accurately reflect the reality of living in a city like Vancouver. Counter evidence: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/vancouver-tops-list-of-most-expensive-cities-in-canada-again-1.2704078 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/vancouver-tops-list-of-most-... And http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/02/vancouver-expensive-city-north-america/ http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/02/vancouver-expensive-city-...
        cperciva 12y ago
        Vancouver has high rental prices Compared to most other cities, yes. Compared to the cost to buy identical properties, Vancouver's rental prices are extraordinarily low. I'm paying $1700/month to rent a two-bedroom condo which would sell for around $500k; after strata fees and property taxes, my landlord is making less money than if he had bought Government of Canada bonds. If you look at detached houses, the situation is even worse; for $2000/month you can rent a house which would cost over a million dollars to buy.
        yourapostasy 12y ago
        This is effectively the difference in market clearing functions between cash-only and government-underwritten credit-based markets. For a variety of historical reasons, governments around the world have enacted an infrastructure of government-backed credit and near-"exorbitant privilege"-level asset treatments (in many areas like regulatory, legislative, judicial, financial...the reach is quite broad) for residential real estate. I have contrary views regarding this differential treatment, which I consider excessively improvident in our current era. But the views are strongly unpopular in the mainstream and the mainstream views are embedded into the very warp and weft of most people's conception of wealth and income, so I shy away from discussing my views in depth (and HN is not the forum to explore the attending issues). However, in much of the discussion surrounding Piketty's recent work [1], there is increasing acknowledgement of the role the growth in housing asset pricing (interpreted as "wealth" in most venues) is playing in the increasing returns to capital-holders. Whether those returns are ever-increasing or only currently-increasing depends upon whether you think Piketty or Rognlie is more persuasive, respectively. This somewhat parallels our industry's own discussions around the productive or dubious nature and wealth-building or wealth-destroying trend of so much enormous human talent and inventiveness devoted to what proponents call new forms of capital and economics, and detractors call frivolous ("cat memes"). This discussion is far from over. There's a deeper, more philosophically-oriented set of decisions that our polities around the globe will have to grapple with in the unfolding years ahead, regarding the nature of wealth, income, and money. [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/06/thomas-pikettys-capital http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/06/thomas-p...
rdlecler1 12y ago
I've lived in Vancouver. There are really only three industries: (dodgy) junior mining, retail, and real estate. Property is bought by absentee owners who take supply out of the market, drive up prices, but do not contribute to the economy. The city is more expensive than NY without the amenities (except the outdoors), culture, or opportunity. The city should be Canada's powerhouse but it's turned into a high price vacation area without tourism.
- ams6110 12y ago
  So what's the motivation to buying property you don't live in. Are they renting it out? The OP made it sound like many units are vacant. Are they buying and holding hoping to sell later for more? Normally a boom in high-end housing is good for local trades (plumbers, electicians, carpenters, painters, decorators, etc) as the first thing most upper-tier home buyers do when they buy a place is renovate, remodel, or at least redecorate.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - brookside 12y ago
    The motivation is often wanting to move assets to a location out-of-reach for the Chinese government to potentially seize.
    - chaostheory 12y ago
      So these homes are vacant? From my experience in the Bay Area, these homes house their wives and small children; or their adult children. When you think about it this makes more sense than leaving them empty considering China's environment pollution.
      - cherls 12y ago
        Some of the owners move their families over. But they often own more than one property, so the unused ones are completely vacant.
desdiv 12y ago
A 2011 study by Landcor Data showed that 74 per cent of luxury purchases in Richmond and Vancouver’s west side were by buyers with mainland Chinese names with no western variant. Not surprising, given that Richmond is 55% Chinese[0]. West side Vancouver is probably around the same. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_British_Columbia#Demographics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_British_Columbia#Demo...
- msie 12y ago
  So it hinges on Chinese people westernizing their last name to ensure they are counted as Canadian? Plus this is only counting luxury properties. Sadly it's really important now WHICH set of rich people own those properties.
  - kazinator 12y ago
    Canada does not have any statute which says you need an Anglo last name to be counted as a Canadian. I do not have such a name, and, by golly, I'm a citizen of this little patch of dirt. I suspect that it would certain that such a renaming requirement would violate something in the Canadian Constitution and its Charter of Rights and Freedoms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada
  - purplefruit 12y ago
    In Vancouver it's well known that the overwhelming majority of Chinese people who emigrate here have English variants to their name. If anything the study underestimates the figure as many non-Canadian Chinese (particularly in HK) do have western variants.
  - ericd 12y ago
    To your last point (assuming I'm reading your last sentence correctly). I don't think its a race/nationalism thing - I think it's more of a concern because people don't want properties being used as investment vehicles for foreign money and driving up the price for people whose primary use of houses in the area is shelter.
wvenable 12y ago
Here is a link to one my favorite sites about housing in Vancouver. Take the quiz: http://www.crackshackormansion.com/ http://www.crackshackormansion.com/ http://www.crackshackormansion.com/part2.html http://www.crackshackormansion.com/part2.html
- tempestn 12y ago
  The trick is to look at the neighbouring houses!
- BrainInAJar 12y ago
  Yeah, the real solution is to knock down the single family homes on the CoV peninsula (Which is only about 100 square kilometers) and put up multi-family dwellings. It doesn't really matter one iota what a single family home costs, they're land-inefficient. How much would a single family home in Manhattan cost?
melling 12y ago
According to Wikipedia, Vancouver only has 600k people. Shouldn't people expect the city to grow to a few million people over the next 100 years? More people are moving to cities, after all. I'd think that with proper urban planning, there's enough space to grow. Urban planning means more mass transit, of course. That's not something that we do very well in the western hemisphere. Even NYC could be a lot better. People are still trying to jam several thousand buses into Manhattan every day. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/20/nyregion/port-authority-agrees-on-the-need-to-replace-its-bus-terminal-but-little-else.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/20/nyregion/port-authority-ag...
- wvenable 12y ago
  If you count the main suburbs of Vancouver, there are already over 2 million people. The transit system in Metro Vancouver moves over 400k people a day.
  - melling 12y ago
    Then the city should be able to absorb the increased demand in housing/apartments? SF refuses to allow for more housing and mass transit isn't extensive enough so you are required to live in certain areas. And Manhattan is an island so that's why you get outrageous pricing there. People want to live close to where they work and there's a certain commute time that they are willing to put up with. If people could live 60 miles away from Manhattan in any direction, and reach it within 30 minutes, for example, then real estate prices would decrease.
    - wvenable 12y ago
      The geography of Vancouver prevents expansion. Rivers and inlets cut across all the major regions and it's almost impossible to add more mass transit. People are moving further and further out but the commutes are pretty outrageous. I live in a suburb that is a 45 minute bus commute to the city and nearly every house in my neighborhood is worth a million dollars.
    - Tiktaalik 12y ago
hiyou102 12y ago
As a student in Vancouver this worries me. It think it's about time either the city or metro Vancouver started putting forward some absentee homeowner legislation. We have a lot of talented young people that are leaving to places like Calgary and Seattle because the Vancouver doesn't have the opportunities to support them.
- eps 12y ago
  That time was 10 years ago. The government has no reason to put such legislation in place, because it lives off taxes on empty buildings and because it would crash the f#ck out of RE market if they turn their back on Chinese money and it starts flowing out.
  - hackerboos 12y ago
    There are policies that can be gradually brought in that wouldn't crash the market. Firstly, you make it more expensive to own an empty home. In my home city in the UK, landlords are no longer able to claim council tax discounts for empty properties after 6 months. If your home is vacant. You pay up. Secondly, you incentivise rentals through tax breaks to landlords. Finally, you have to push prices down. After all, rising prices is why foreigners own these assets in the first place. - Stop foreign ownership of more than 50% of a building. That way, projects still get funded and locals get housing. - Increase stamp duty taxes on foreigners purchasing homes - Use the money you gain in tax revenue to fund cheaper real estate building for locals - Any other real estate can only be bought by foreigners if they are locally resident in BC for a year or more What is really outstanding with all of this though is that Canadians cannot own property in Hong Kong (lease only, lots of Government owned real estate) and cannot own property in the PRC without meeting residency requirements. Why should Canada treat people differently? That being said I don't think any of this is possible with the likes of NAFTA.
- thecambie 12y ago
  When I was finishing school, there was also lot of fear post tech bubble, and we were probably mid housing runup (although I didn't know it yet). I guess my only advice is, don't count on other people to fix problems. If you focus on your own skills - always be coding, always be learning - I think you'll do fine here or elsewhere. We are not Seattle, nor SF, nor NY, nor London. Each city offers their own mix of good, bad, and ugly, and you need to determine which city provides the right mix for you. I'm from Ontario, but that right mix is Vancouver for me right now. My parents immigrated to Canada and worked their asses off during a recession with a 20% interest rate on their mortgage. I'm sure the media said the sky was falling then as well. I always remembered how hard they had to work, so I learned that we cannot take things for granted. Internet commenters complaining about kids half my age with lambos? Not my problem - I have more constructive things to do. If you are willing to fight to the good fight and enter politics to make positive change for the amazing city we all want it to be, I will vote for you!
jmspring 12y ago
I've been going to Vancouver regularly (about once a year) since the mid 90s. As the return of Hong Kong to China approached, the influx of Chinese investment spiked. It started in Vancouver, people who had been in the better parts of Vancouver and were of retirement age sold and moved out (basically the first wave) and those being bought out moved to places like the Okanogan, etc. Then, single story buildings in Kits, for example, gave way to three+ story multi-use (commercial downstairs, residential upstairs) units. Some of this is still happening around the city. Where older 2-3 story condo buildings exist, some were vacated for building some more towers. Funny this story shows up now. It is something that has been happening for almost 20 years. It is also amazing to me, given the beauty, the availability of technology, and the desirability, Vancouver never has become a tech hub. There were a few startups circa 2000-ish that made waves, some were sham puffed up deals like those lead by Dick Hardt (sxip). There has traditionally been a lot of media (popular for hollywood filming), gaming, and smaller startups, but nothing that served as an anchor. Vancouver and BC are probably at the top of my favorite places on the west coast, but the issues it has in technology, building an industry, and being affordable go back in time well before this simple blog post. edit: typos
- spitfire 12y ago
  In the early/mid 2000's Vancouver had a healthy games industry. Not sure about now. But your point is valid. Vancouver doesn't really have any technology industry that's in a virtuous cycle yet.
  - jmspring 12y ago
    Google / Microsoft / others are building office complexes in Richmond, Surrey, and other places close to the border because of "US immigration" limitations, but those aren't going to help build industry. Until the mid 2000s, I was looking for a viable company / excuse to move to Vancouver (meet the required points/immigration first bar), but never felt like tech was taking off there. I was involved in the identity arena from the late 90s to mid/late 2000s, the aware of sxip (Dick's company) and had me again exploring the vancouver scene. Funding and major players then were a handful of people and not growing. Not healthy for long term growth -- at least for the risk assessment I was running personally.
luketych 12y ago
Vancouver is one of the worst places to live in the western world imo. Poverty and violence are much bigger problems than people realize. I have many friends who already have pretty bad health problems, and they're only in their 20s. I have no idea why this is happening, but I believe stress and hopelessness must be playing a large role. Kids can't seem to afford to do anything in this city except abuse drugs and vandalize. The aboriginal population in this city is even worse off. I feel really bad for most of my friends and wish I could help. People think Vancouver is a really diverse city, but it is the most segregated city I have ever been to. The Chinese live in Richmond and West Van, the Indians live in Surrey, and the other ethnicities (Aboriginals, Caucasians, etc.) are getting squeezed in the middle. It's quite sad. Edit: Not just white people, I also mentioned aboriginals. I also have some chinese and indian friends who face the same issues, but I did not mention them due to the nature of the article. I grew up in the suburbs where the real problems seem to be much more obvious than a city-dweller who can safely live in his or her bubble and ignore the real issues. Don't really give a fuck what most of you think. If you want to see unhappy people, take a drive out to Delta or Surrey. Note: I am not comparing Vancouver to Oakland or some other ghettos, I was attempting to compare it to other major western cities. But obviously I have to be perfect with my words, otherwise I will leave myself open to leeches.
- kylepdm 12y ago
  Really? One of the "worst" places? edit: Like I completely agree with the sentiment that Vancouver is just too expensive to live in. But one of the "worst" places in the Western world is a pretty ridiculous hyperbole. Just as a reference point, where exactly else have you lived?
- vangroovy 12y ago
  I've lived in Vancouver for 15 years and have no idea how you can even come close to those conclusions. Maybe you live in a different world than me but I have never felt close to unsafe in the city and don't know anyone with health problems in their 20's. Yeah, buying a house is expensive but rent isn't unreasonable if you're ok with roommates. In the summer I'd argue its one of the best cities in the western world. Beaches, mountains, and beautiful people.
allochthon 12y ago
The article reminds me of a real estate agent in Miami, who on the radio called the apartments out there "apartment-shaped financial instruments." (In Vancouver, apparently, they are detached homes.) This seems to be a recurring theme in certain cities, e.g., Vancouver, San Francisco, London, New York.
- msie 12y ago
  Somehow the people of Vancouver think they can avoid the fate of those other cities.
  - curiously 12y ago
    Especially when they say, 'oh but our banking and financial system is sound' without any knowledge of the subject.
- eigenvector 12y ago
  The difference between Vancouver and SF/London/NYC is that it has no accompanying income boom to make the real estate prices affordable for working people. There's no significant financial or tech industry. Nobody gets rich from working in Vancouver. In fact, Vancouver tech jobs generally pay _less_ than other Canadian cities despite the greatly higher cost of living.
  - msie 12y ago
    Vancouver firms can offer less pay because there aren't many alternatives when it comes to Canadian cities for a tech worker. Let's see...Toronto, Montreal, Waterloo and Calgary. And the winter weather east of the Rockies is horrible.
    - eigenvector 12y ago
      I agree, as the only Canadian city west of the Rockies Vancouver employers seem to think they don't need to compete with Toronto/Montreal/Calgary pay. And to a certain extent they're right. But with more and more US firms hiring Canadians on TN visas, the new competition is Seattle/SF.
goalieca 12y ago
From Vancouver, love the city but had to leave. Almost all of my friends left too. Cost of living was one thing but the quality of life just wasn't there for the suburban commuters and the city always felt depressed. There was no heart beat when walking the streets.
- badsock 12y ago
  I lived there for a couple of years, and couldn't agree more. There's a lot of awesome people making their best efforts to counter it, but really it's a dead city. I remember realizing that all the cafes closed around 6 or 7 in the downtown area, then finding out it was because of lack of demand. A city of 2.5 million people that can't keep a coffee shop open past dinner - coming from Toronto it was bizarre. I also remember the absolutely awful experience of trying to find an appartment to rent. There were so many people competing that we had to line up and "audition" - I ended up getting to know a lot of my fellow contestants by name because you had to show up to practically every single Craigslist listing if you were to have half a chance. Then finally getting a place and seeing that half of apartments in the towers around us were empty. Vancouver in the 80's was apparently one the hippest places in Canada, definitely not any more.
  - cpncrunch 12y ago
    I've lived in various places in Canada, and now live on mid Vancouver Island, which IMO has the best overall quality of life anywhere in Canada (if not the world). You get the same amazing scenery and outdoor activities, but with reasonable property prices and no traffic or urban sprawl. I live in a luxury, new 1200sqft townhome which I rent for $1200/month, I can walk into town or to the sea, and I'm 15 mins from Vancouver by floatplane (well, about an hour once you add the drive to Harbour Air, etc).
  - starky 12y ago
    I've lived in Vancouver since 2007 and have rented 3 places within the city and 2 in the suburbs (Richmond and Maple Ridge). I was only turned down from getting the place I wanted once, and that was purely because I called back an hour after I said I would respond and the landlady had given it to another person.
raquo 12y ago
If you look at the ruling party's donor list it shouldn't come as a surprise. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371306-vv-pre-election-disclosure.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371306-vv-pre-elect... Oh wait, corporate contributions are only a tiny percentage! Wow, this party is funded by The People! Now scroll all the way down (previous to last page) to see corporate donors. Observe every single developer in Vancouver being on that list donating tens of thousands of dollars, more than any other corporation. Notice how that doesn't stack up with the pie chart you just saw. Now scroll back to the top of the page to and observe that the contribution-bysource piechart is by number of contributions rather than by aggregate value. This should tell you enough.
- maged 12y ago
  Which party is this?
  - raquo 12y ago
    Vision Vancouver
msie 12y ago
This is a really tiresome issue for me. Lots of xenophobia and misinformation. As much as I hate an absentee owner tax maybe it would shut up the racists. I fear the issue isn't the high property prices.
sterl 12y ago
This is the most misinformed comments thread I've ever seen on Hacker News.
- aaron695 12y ago
  I think intelligent HN readers are starting to just skip these racist/entitlement based real estate posts. I hope.
curiously 12y ago
Funny, this was on /r/vancouver not too long ago. There's so many things broken with Vancouver but nobody is willing to confront these out of fear of displeasing the wrong crowd that backs them into power. In other major cities, there's very good protection against foreign ownership of properties to prevent the exact situation vancouver is in. In other major cities, there's a strong and large economy to grow with the cities cost of living. Vancouver's wages have remained unchanged for a few decades, barely adjusting for inflation. Having grown up in Vancouver, I feel sad, sad that I have to leave my hometown to find better opportunities. I find that most sane people have already left Vancouver, including my circles. Senior engineers are hard to find in Vancouver because nobody with a family are willing to stick around for a low salary and high cost of living. Employees know that the labor market is tight and that people are desperate for jobs, and frequently exploit them. Tech companies are strapped for cash, large tech companies come to Vancouver to hire foreigners (Microsoft being the most controversial to date), video game industry is unstable. Vancouver is a sinking ship.
olalonde 12y ago
Surprised there was no mention of Hong Kong as Vancouver is often dubbed Hongcouver and Hong Kong has to deal with the same kind of problems right now (that is, the younger generation can't afford to live there).
- nas 12y ago
  > the younger generation can't afford to live there So live somewhere else. I don't really get the problem, seems like normal market forces to me. Canada is a huge country.
  - hellgas00 12y ago
    If only humans were robots without emotional attachments, family or a desire for happiness, applying market solutions to problems would be so easy! Being priced out of the city you grew up in because foreign investors are looking for a place to hide money safely is not good for a city in the long run, or its inhabitants. Perhaps more stringent foreign ownership rules could be applied and produces an effect that didn't require the next generation to pack up and leave for greener pastures.
  - vlasev 12y ago
    Canada is huge but the nice livable places are few and far between.
narrator 12y ago
All the money flooding into Vancouver is the results of billions and billions of dollars flooding out the U.S trade deficit, hitting China, and boomeranging back into hard assets all over the world.
- LiweiZ 12y ago
  Insightful comment buried again. +1
  - cylinder 12y ago
    Because it doesn't add much value. Most/all western countries have a trade deficit, especially with China, these days. So what? Are we going to propose that the solution to fixing Vancouver is "achieve US trade surplus" and "stop rich Chinese people existing"
    - LiweiZ 12y ago
      Viewing the issue from a more macro perspective is way less appreciated here. Micro and macro perspectives are both essential to have a deeper understanding before there is some kind of methodology to unify every dimension (the possibility for this happening is really low in social science, and economics is considered as social science by some). It's just my personal point of view and my own preference. Also, it's not easy to propose a nice solution without taking the systemic limit into account. People are prone to enjoy debating on symptoms instead digging deeper to find those causes. I myself find many comments in the lower half are more valuable. The byproduct of HN's comments seems a better fit for me. However, without the existence of major upvoted comments, there would be no such byproduct.
- nzp 12y ago
  Funny how the globalization stick has two ends, isn't it? Who'd a thunk it!
dennispi 12y ago
I live in Vancouver, and have for many years.. as such, I hope I can try and help inform an otherwise misinformed set of posts. I suspect they're off-base largely because a lot has changed since some of the authors of other posts have lived here. First, there are many technology companies in Vancouver. Hootsuite, Bench, A Thinking Ape, Clio, Slack, Amazon.. these are just the ones that came to mind. I know authoritatively that each and every single one is looking for senior sales, marketing, engineering and product talent. Here is a slightly more comprehensive list: http://www.techvibes.com/company-directory/vancouver/tag/startup http://www.techvibes.com/company-directory/vancouver/tag/sta... Is the tech ecosystem as big as in SF? No.. but where else is it? Second, yes.. it is an incredibly expensive place to live. Part of this is due to the large number of homes which are owned by foreigners and are vacant. I'm not aware of a concrete way of measuring this.. but anecdotally, I suspect it's close to 30-40% of the downtown residential core. This is definitely a worrisome issue, but too complex to cover in just a few lines of this post. Third, be careful not to compare (downtown) Vancouver with it's suburbs. The downtown core is one of the few places in the world where people live and work in the same area... there are a multitude of activities. As many as you'd expect of a city of this size. Finally, commutes range from 5-30 minutes (and that's going to cover people who walk, bike and take transit). Vancouver is consistently rated as one of the most livable cities in the world.. but there will definitely need to be changes if we want that to continue to be the case in the long term.
- edwinnathaniel 12y ago
  Hear hear! Here's my comment to back up dennispi post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9245915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9245915 As per my post (the TL;DR summary here...): Intermediate Engineer 90k or more, Senior 110k or more. Better health insurance/coverage. For example: child-birth cost almost nothing (VIP room costs $100 ish for 2-3 days after corp. insurance cover the rest, regular room is covered by basic health insurance I think). >Finally, commutes range from 5-30 minutes (and that's going to cover people who walk, bike and take transit). I'd like put that in bold (as stated in my comment as well). This is different compare to the States where Highway is the One True Way :). (I used to live in LA before settling down in Vancouver).
edwinnathaniel 12y ago
Vancouver seems to get better (at least from my perspective) in terms of tech-hub and while my opinions seem to pain pretty picture of Vancouver, I think some of the concern are legit when it comes to the inflated real estate price. Anyhow, here we go: Amazon plans to hire 1000 people for their new office. Despite the claim that they only do interview but not hiring I think that's misinformed. They _are_ hiring people. I know a few people who work there and have a friend who's friend was hired there not too long ago. They have private invite sessions once in a while too. Microsoft said that they're hiring 400 people for their new Vancouver HQ. They also had a private invite sessions around the end of 2014. The recruiter stated that they're hiring 120 people within a year, and more to come. Sounds like they will do this in phase. Body shop like Facebook and Twitter pointed out up-front that they only do training and only hire fresh-grad to be shipped to the USA. Salesforce is ACTIVELY hiring in Vancouver. They poached my co-worker last year. I've been hearing that their offer is in the range of 120-140k for intermediate engineer. 90k is the minimum current rate for intermediate engineer for mid-size to BigCo (Salesforce being the outlier). Small-to-mid offers around 70k to high 80k with laid-back/better work-life balance and frequent to work from home. Source: recruiters, I know some of them and have maintain good relationship. SauceLabs is recruiting with 4 current "seed" employees for their Vancouver branch. I know someone tried to recruit a Vancouver-based OpenDNS employee where the requested salary is between $110k-120k. I can only guess OpenDNS paid their employee here probably around 90k or more. A Thinking Ape (YC backed) is here. Mozilla has a medium-sized presence here. The list goes on. So whether the pay is low, I'd say that's relative. I don't know the compensation for the rest of the USA cities except SF and Seattle. Seattle is nice but damn... the food, the outdoor, the culture, the diversity are below Vancouver (I spent a short stint in MS). The commute is also bad. Also don't forget we have basic health insurance and probably "saner" government. Let's go over the real-estate a little bit: I've been scouting and am invited to a few "VIP sessions" for apartments and townhouses (the kind of estate that none of these rich Chinese would probably buy since it's below their range; they only buy fancy houses no?) hold by the developers. Most of the sessions I went to usually managed to sell 100% of their "phase one" development and 70% of their "phase two" development. Somehow there seems to be an influx of buyers and NO, they're not dominated by mainland Chinese people. A friend of mine recently purchased a townhouse (3 floors, 3br, 2.5 bath, super small backyard, 1400sq ft finished, brand-new, new appliances, etc) for $599k in the suburb, very close to the train station (10 mins walk), 20 minutes via train to Downtown core. This location is quite ideal too: near the biggest mall in Vancouver, relatively good suburban area, close to food and entertainments. My manager came from Down Under (Oz) and said that at least he can afford an apartment in the downtown area that does not blow a huge hole on his wallet compare to Sydney (NSW). Rent is definitely cheaper compare to the big cities (Sydney, NYC, SF, LA): 1400-1500 1br in downtown area, a wee bit more expensive in the posh-downtown area or near the Coal Harbour. 1200 for decent size 1-br apartment near the biggest Mall in GVRD (Greater Vancouver District). Do keep in mind that the public transportation is pretty good compare to most cities I've ever been to (except Singapore, HK, NYC, or London). The buses and trains are well maintained despite a few occasional service hiccups. I've taken BART in SF before, smelly, dingy, weird people, and slightly more complex fare calculation. I've taken Sydney (NSW) train before, still manual (operated by human), not frequent, more expensive. Vancouver also has an "express" train (different path/route than the main stream) that connects the downtown core and some of the further suburbs. The city keeps improving and expanding the train services further east to cover more area. A few years ago the city just wraps up the line that connects the airport to the end of the Downtown core where the Cruise sails, where the startup/hip/US-branch companies have offices. The path takes about 30 minutes trip. And whenever someone said "40 minutes driving" from downtown core, that's 40 minutes via REGULAR street/road not Highway like in the USA. In the States, the default is almost always "Highway" if you're coming from the 'burbs. In Vancouver, it's just a normal street which means distance wise is not that far. Crime rate is very low around here.
raverbashing 12y ago
". Vancouver has experienced no commensurate economic or income boom" Then it's not a boom, it's a bubble. It's that simple
- serge2k 12y ago
  The money is flowing into the housing market from outside, so the bubble is free to keep growing until that flow gets cutoff.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rbobby 12y ago
> One problem was that its figures excluded the tens of thousands of Canadians (30-50% of whom estimated to buy property in Vancouver) who bought their residency through the recently defunct Immigrant Investor Program. Hold on a second. I think it's pretty rude, and bordering on xenophobic, that the author wants to call these folks foreigners. Especially if you turn it around and say outright what he's suggesting: People who gained their citizenship through the Immigrant Investor program aren't _real_ citizens like us. Immigrants _are_ Canadians... even folks who used the Immigrant Investor Program.
- twic 12y ago
  The article does touch on this: > According to our Immigration Minister “There is little evidence that immigrant investors as a class are maintaining ties to Canada or making a positive economic contribution to the country”. Indeed, there is an estimated 300,000 – 400,000 Canadians living in China, the majority of whom are ethnic Chinese. If someone who started life as a foreigner, with no ties to Canada at all, comes along and essentially buys Canadian citizenship, then continues living in China, do they stop being a foreigner? Whilst they are indisputably Canadian citizens, i would say they aren't Canadian in any other sense, and so yes, they are still foreign. They aren't even immigrants, as they never immigrated! Whereas, of course, someone who moves to Canada and makes a life there is a real immigrant, and becomes a real Canadian. I don't think the author of the article would dispute that.
  - rbobby 12y ago
    Kinda doubling down on the whole "they're not real canadians" thing aren't ya? Here's an interesting study from U.Ottawa in 2010: http://sciencessociales.uottawa.ca/grei-rgei/fra/documents/Ware_Fortin_Paradis_Canada_IIP_Report_English.pdf http://sciencessociales.uottawa.ca/grei-rgei/fra/documents/W... Of interest: 1986-2010 only 130,000 individuals gained citizenship via the immigrant investor program. Of those about 32,000 were the primary applicant, and 97,000 were family members (on average 3... so wife + 2 kids). This bit is also pretty telling: > Contrary to popular belief, a majority of respondents (82%) reside in Canada on average between 10 and 12 months a year (Table 4). In addition, another 11% of respondents indicated that they stay in Canada for 7 to 9 months a year. The only official and comparable figures on this topic come from the province of Quebec, where about half of all immigrant investors who landed in Canada since 2003 still lived in the country in 2007 (Figure 12). Our survey results give a higher estimate on a national basis of the proportion of immigrant investors who reside permanently in Canada compared with statistics from the province of Quebec Trusting the Conservatives to tell the truth about immigration issues is foolish. The minister's comments are directly refuted by this study. Especially his "or making a positive economic impact"... here's a quote from the start of the study: > The Program clearly constitutes a positive economic initiative for Canada. Considering that about 2,500 immigrant investor families enter Canada each year, this means that the Program provides an annual economic contribution of $1.9 to $2 billion to the Canadian economy
fit2rule 12y ago
The same story could be told about a number of Western cities. Perth, Australia - for example - is another city that has gone through massively over-inflated property prices as, over the last few decades, foreign investors come to the place, see its beauty, and - because they have the context of other major, metropolitan wasteland-cities - heavily invest. To me this really means that those of us who live in the privileged band of Western civilization really need to get out of our little bubbles and go and see how the rest of the world really lives. If you're in some safe, comfortable city on the edge of it all - go pierce the heart of human civilization, and see what life is like in Hong Kong, Shanghai, or any other major metropolis in Europe for example. Being ignorant of the teeming masses is how these over-inflated bubbles occur in the first place - if you think your lifestyle is great, beware the attention it will gain from those who have managed to accrue substantial wealth, in lesser circumstances ... complacency and decadence will always be exploited by those who have run the gauntlet of human civilization.
michaelochurch 12y ago
Kudos to this article for pointing out the problem: absentee foreign investors, often laundering dirty money. Real estate in the most desirable cities is becoming the 21st century's Nazi Gold: stolen wealth that is parked in another country, and with too many third-party beneficiaries who refuse to do the right thing. Here's another factor that doesn't get much play: price inelasticity. Consider the 1970s oil crises. A 5% drop in supply availability would cause prices to go up 4-5 times. People can look at the statistics and say, "This only effects 10% of property, so it's not a big deal." Wrong. A small amount of supply destruction or removal can have a huge effect on the price. Why do you think De Beers sits on vaults of unused diamonds? Inelasticity has an interesting effect of creating a lot of fake wealth, which is why so many people are complicit in the crime: Baby Boomer NIMBYs in California who don't give a damn either way about Chinese corruption or money laundering, but who become financially vested in blocking any positive change that might threaten property values by increasing supply (i.e. letting the market do what it's fucking supposed to do). Too many people are afraid to appear politically incorrect by blaming overseas malefactors. First, it's not just "the Chinese". It's corrupt officials and criminals from all over the world: including some from rich European countries like Italy and France. You don't see them in the SF or Vancouver market, but you have a lot of European drug kingpins buying in Manhattan. Second: these people are the exact opposite of the traditional immigrants that made (and are continuing to make) the U.S. and Canada great. The traditional immigrants were and are trying to get away from poverty, oppression, and a lack of opportunity. They were trying to escape the flaws of other (often corrupt and failing) societies. We welcomed them with open arms, as we should, even though many of them had nothing in terms of economic wealth. These new buyers are the opposite, because they often don't live here (and won't, unless they get caught stealing from their home countries and have to escape) and because they are just trying to park their ill-gotten assets somewhere. Instead of trying to escape from corrupt societies, they're people who actively profit from overseas corruption and our using our real estate to launder their loot.
- api 12y ago
  Real estate hyperinflation is a scourge of the modern world. It is time for cities and even countries to act to curtail absentee landlords playing Ponzi games with real estate to the extreme detriment of cities, culture, and the real economy. This is the worst kind of non productive market pathology... Worse in many ways than stock market bubbles and non-physical financial Ponzi schemes. Kudos for pointing out the complicity of baby boomer land owners in this. It's another way for them to screw their children, something they've been systemically good at.
kyllo 12y ago
Seattle is objectively a much better place to live right now if you can. It has cheaper housing (at least for now), more and higher-paying jobs, especially in tech. But Vancouver is a beautiful city and has better Asian food. Every once in a while my wife and I drive up there on the weekend to walk around the city and eat some fantastic Chinese food. We fantasize about living in Vancouver, but in the end it just doesn't make any economic sense.
harvey56 12y ago
This article could have been written replacing the words Canada and Vancouver by resp. Australia and Sydney. It is exactly the same thing happening in Aus. Australia introduced that significant investor visa program which the facts show that it is about 90% of PRC people coming in with their clean or not so clean money. Investment, in the context of this visa scheme, is mostly about property speculation. Property prices in Sydney are very high and locals and migrants who work here cannot afford. The government introduced negative gearing to help to inflate that property bubble. As in Canada, Australia agreed to co operate with the Chinese gov to help track those Chinese who run away with all their dirty money, which almost always end up in property. I am renting now and have been inspecting units for a year as I wanted to buy. At any inspection I went, other people walking in were mostly PRC. not australian asians. you can tell from their strong accent. Whenever I made an offer, above the asking price, there was a chinese to outbid by like 10% the price of the unit. You sometimes hear sick conversations between the potential buyer and the agent like once that young PRC girl who asked the agent : "I already have 2 units here and am planning to buy another one; if I buy this one can I still get the first home owner grant ?" (I really heard that I'm not joking). Few times, at the end of an inspection, when I would ask questions to the agent, he would answer me : "I have a call scheduled tonight with the owner in china, I will ask him". if they really want to track the dirty money pouring in Australia, it's not that hard. You see houses that sell for $3 million whereas they sold for $1.5 million only exactly one year earlier. In Sydney inner west, I can see every day luxury cars driven by young chinese kids. Seriously the guy does not even have pubic hair yet and he's driving a custom bentley. There are parts of the city that do not necessarily look luxurious : no luxury goods shops around, average condition roads, very few shops and restaurants, though you feel like you are in monaco when you look at the cars around. I don't know what can be done about it. Wish for a serious financial crash in china, or wish for the politics to really mean what they say, or wish for a lot more crime (which would encourage those people to look elsewhere to spend their money), or find ways to move to smaller towns where all that dirty money has not been yet and property is still available ?

165 points by mathattack 12y ago

Sounds like Vancouver could use a little Georgism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

koenigdavidmj 12y ago
Or as a simpler, more politically palatable approximation, set up a pied-à-terre property tax for residential properties above a certain value that are lived in for less than three months per year.
- desdiv 12y ago
  Couldn't the absentee owners just rent the properties out to dodge that?
  - wvenable 12y ago
    But that would increase the number of rental properties, theoretically drive down rents, and then possibly even decrease housing prices.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - niwri 12y ago
        That is really low for Vancouver. I don't know anyone in a 1 bedroom in the city centre that pays ~$1400 CAD. The lowest I've heard from my co-workers is ~$1650 CAD, going all the way up to ~$2100.
        purewater 12y ago
        Even 2100 CAD ($1670 USD) is about half of San Francisco 1 bedroom rent. His post is still correct in terms of ratios. http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/03/mapping_the_median_rent_of_a_onebedroom_in_san_francisco.php http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/03/mapping_the_median_...
        robotresearcher 12y ago
        There are lots of well paid jobs in SF. Not so in Vancouver.
        serge2k 12y ago
        Yeah, but you make 50-100% more in SF.
      - kennywinker 12y ago
        Experientially, Vancouver has high rental prices, and a shortage of rental properties on the lower end. I don't think the numbers reported by the site you linked to accurately reflect the reality of living in a city like Vancouver. Counter evidence: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/vancouver-tops-list-of-most-expensive-cities-in-canada-again-1.2704078 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/vancouver-tops-list-of-most-... And http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/02/vancouver-expensive-city-north-america/ http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/02/vancouver-expensive-city-...
        cperciva 12y ago
        Vancouver has high rental prices Compared to most other cities, yes. Compared to the cost to buy identical properties, Vancouver's rental prices are extraordinarily low. I'm paying $1700/month to rent a two-bedroom condo which would sell for around $500k; after strata fees and property taxes, my landlord is making less money than if he had bought Government of Canada bonds. If you look at detached houses, the situation is even worse; for $2000/month you can rent a house which would cost over a million dollars to buy.
        yourapostasy 12y ago
        This is effectively the difference in market clearing functions between cash-only and government-underwritten credit-based markets. For a variety of historical reasons, governments around the world have enacted an infrastructure of government-backed credit and near-"exorbitant privilege"-level asset treatments (in many areas like regulatory, legislative, judicial, financial...the reach is quite broad) for residential real estate. I have contrary views regarding this differential treatment, which I consider excessively improvident in our current era. But the views are strongly unpopular in the mainstream and the mainstream views are embedded into the very warp and weft of most people's conception of wealth and income, so I shy away from discussing my views in depth (and HN is not the forum to explore the attending issues). However, in much of the discussion surrounding Piketty's recent work [1], there is increasing acknowledgement of the role the growth in housing asset pricing (interpreted as "wealth" in most venues) is playing in the increasing returns to capital-holders. Whether those returns are ever-increasing or only currently-increasing depends upon whether you think Piketty or Rognlie is more persuasive, respectively. This somewhat parallels our industry's own discussions around the productive or dubious nature and wealth-building or wealth-destroying trend of so much enormous human talent and inventiveness devoted to what proponents call new forms of capital and economics, and detractors call frivolous ("cat memes"). This discussion is far from over. There's a deeper, more philosophically-oriented set of decisions that our polities around the globe will have to grapple with in the unfolding years ahead, regarding the nature of wealth, income, and money. [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/06/thomas-pikettys-capital http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/06/thomas-p...

rdlecler1 12y ago

I've lived in Vancouver. There are really only three industries: (dodgy) junior mining, retail, and real estate. Property is bought by absentee owners who take supply out of the market, drive up prices, but do not contribute to the economy. The city is more expensive than NY without the amenities (except the outdoors), culture, or opportunity. The city should be Canada's powerhouse but it's turned into a high price vacation area without tourism.

ams6110 12y ago
So what's the motivation to buying property you don't live in. Are they renting it out? The OP made it sound like many units are vacant. Are they buying and holding hoping to sell later for more? Normally a boom in high-end housing is good for local trades (plumbers, electicians, carpenters, painters, decorators, etc) as the first thing most upper-tier home buyers do when they buy a place is renovate, remodel, or at least redecorate.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- brookside 12y ago
  The motivation is often wanting to move assets to a location out-of-reach for the Chinese government to potentially seize.
  - chaostheory 12y ago
    So these homes are vacant? From my experience in the Bay Area, these homes house their wives and small children; or their adult children. When you think about it this makes more sense than leaving them empty considering China's environment pollution.
    - cherls 12y ago
      Some of the owners move their families over. But they often own more than one property, so the unused ones are completely vacant.

desdiv 12y ago

A 2011 study by Landcor Data showed that 74 per cent of luxury purchases in Richmond and Vancouver’s west side were by buyers with mainland Chinese names with no western variant. Not surprising, given that Richmond is 55% Chinese[0]. West side Vancouver is probably around the same. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_British_Columbia#Demographics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_British_Columbia#Demo...

msie 12y ago
So it hinges on Chinese people westernizing their last name to ensure they are counted as Canadian? Plus this is only counting luxury properties. Sadly it's really important now WHICH set of rich people own those properties.
- kazinator 12y ago
  Canada does not have any statute which says you need an Anglo last name to be counted as a Canadian. I do not have such a name, and, by golly, I'm a citizen of this little patch of dirt. I suspect that it would certain that such a renaming requirement would violate something in the Canadian Constitution and its Charter of Rights and Freedoms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada
- purplefruit 12y ago
  In Vancouver it's well known that the overwhelming majority of Chinese people who emigrate here have English variants to their name. If anything the study underestimates the figure as many non-Canadian Chinese (particularly in HK) do have western variants.
- ericd 12y ago
  To your last point (assuming I'm reading your last sentence correctly). I don't think its a race/nationalism thing - I think it's more of a concern because people don't want properties being used as investment vehicles for foreign money and driving up the price for people whose primary use of houses in the area is shelter.

wvenable 12y ago

Here is a link to one my favorite sites about housing in Vancouver. Take the quiz: http://www.crackshackormansion.com/ http://www.crackshackormansion.com/ http://www.crackshackormansion.com/part2.html http://www.crackshackormansion.com/part2.html

tempestn 12y ago
The trick is to look at the neighbouring houses!
BrainInAJar 12y ago
Yeah, the real solution is to knock down the single family homes on the CoV peninsula (Which is only about 100 square kilometers) and put up multi-family dwellings. It doesn't really matter one iota what a single family home costs, they're land-inefficient. How much would a single family home in Manhattan cost?

melling 12y ago

According to Wikipedia, Vancouver only has 600k people. Shouldn't people expect the city to grow to a few million people over the next 100 years? More people are moving to cities, after all. I'd think that with proper urban planning, there's enough space to grow. Urban planning means more mass transit, of course. That's not something that we do very well in the western hemisphere. Even NYC could be a lot better. People are still trying to jam several thousand buses into Manhattan every day. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/20/nyregion/port-authority-agrees-on-the-need-to-replace-its-bus-terminal-but-little-else.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/20/nyregion/port-authority-ag...

wvenable 12y ago
If you count the main suburbs of Vancouver, there are already over 2 million people. The transit system in Metro Vancouver moves over 400k people a day.
- melling 12y ago
  Then the city should be able to absorb the increased demand in housing/apartments? SF refuses to allow for more housing and mass transit isn't extensive enough so you are required to live in certain areas. And Manhattan is an island so that's why you get outrageous pricing there. People want to live close to where they work and there's a certain commute time that they are willing to put up with. If people could live 60 miles away from Manhattan in any direction, and reach it within 30 minutes, for example, then real estate prices would decrease.
  - wvenable 12y ago
    The geography of Vancouver prevents expansion. Rivers and inlets cut across all the major regions and it's almost impossible to add more mass transit. People are moving further and further out but the commutes are pretty outrageous. I live in a suburb that is a 45 minute bus commute to the city and nearly every house in my neighborhood is worth a million dollars.
  - Tiktaalik 12y ago

hiyou102 12y ago

As a student in Vancouver this worries me. It think it's about time either the city or metro Vancouver started putting forward some absentee homeowner legislation. We have a lot of talented young people that are leaving to places like Calgary and Seattle because the Vancouver doesn't have the opportunities to support them.

eps 12y ago
That time was 10 years ago. The government has no reason to put such legislation in place, because it lives off taxes on empty buildings and because it would crash the f#ck out of RE market if they turn their back on Chinese money and it starts flowing out.
- hackerboos 12y ago
  There are policies that can be gradually brought in that wouldn't crash the market. Firstly, you make it more expensive to own an empty home. In my home city in the UK, landlords are no longer able to claim council tax discounts for empty properties after 6 months. If your home is vacant. You pay up. Secondly, you incentivise rentals through tax breaks to landlords. Finally, you have to push prices down. After all, rising prices is why foreigners own these assets in the first place. - Stop foreign ownership of more than 50% of a building. That way, projects still get funded and locals get housing. - Increase stamp duty taxes on foreigners purchasing homes - Use the money you gain in tax revenue to fund cheaper real estate building for locals - Any other real estate can only be bought by foreigners if they are locally resident in BC for a year or more What is really outstanding with all of this though is that Canadians cannot own property in Hong Kong (lease only, lots of Government owned real estate) and cannot own property in the PRC without meeting residency requirements. Why should Canada treat people differently? That being said I don't think any of this is possible with the likes of NAFTA.
thecambie 12y ago
When I was finishing school, there was also lot of fear post tech bubble, and we were probably mid housing runup (although I didn't know it yet). I guess my only advice is, don't count on other people to fix problems. If you focus on your own skills - always be coding, always be learning - I think you'll do fine here or elsewhere. We are not Seattle, nor SF, nor NY, nor London. Each city offers their own mix of good, bad, and ugly, and you need to determine which city provides the right mix for you. I'm from Ontario, but that right mix is Vancouver for me right now. My parents immigrated to Canada and worked their asses off during a recession with a 20% interest rate on their mortgage. I'm sure the media said the sky was falling then as well. I always remembered how hard they had to work, so I learned that we cannot take things for granted. Internet commenters complaining about kids half my age with lambos? Not my problem - I have more constructive things to do. If you are willing to fight to the good fight and enter politics to make positive change for the amazing city we all want it to be, I will vote for you!

jmspring 12y ago

I've been going to Vancouver regularly (about once a year) since the mid 90s. As the return of Hong Kong to China approached, the influx of Chinese investment spiked. It started in Vancouver, people who had been in the better parts of Vancouver and were of retirement age sold and moved out (basically the first wave) and those being bought out moved to places like the Okanogan, etc. Then, single story buildings in Kits, for example, gave way to three+ story multi-use (commercial downstairs, residential upstairs) units. Some of this is still happening around the city. Where older 2-3 story condo buildings exist, some were vacated for building some more towers. Funny this story shows up now. It is something that has been happening for almost 20 years. It is also amazing to me, given the beauty, the availability of technology, and the desirability, Vancouver never has become a tech hub. There were a few startups circa 2000-ish that made waves, some were sham puffed up deals like those lead by Dick Hardt (sxip). There has traditionally been a lot of media (popular for hollywood filming), gaming, and smaller startups, but nothing that served as an anchor. Vancouver and BC are probably at the top of my favorite places on the west coast, but the issues it has in technology, building an industry, and being affordable go back in time well before this simple blog post. edit: typos

spitfire 12y ago
In the early/mid 2000's Vancouver had a healthy games industry. Not sure about now. But your point is valid. Vancouver doesn't really have any technology industry that's in a virtuous cycle yet.
- jmspring 12y ago
  Google / Microsoft / others are building office complexes in Richmond, Surrey, and other places close to the border because of "US immigration" limitations, but those aren't going to help build industry. Until the mid 2000s, I was looking for a viable company / excuse to move to Vancouver (meet the required points/immigration first bar), but never felt like tech was taking off there. I was involved in the identity arena from the late 90s to mid/late 2000s, the aware of sxip (Dick's company) and had me again exploring the vancouver scene. Funding and major players then were a handful of people and not growing. Not healthy for long term growth -- at least for the risk assessment I was running personally.

luketych 12y ago

Vancouver is one of the worst places to live in the western world imo. Poverty and violence are much bigger problems than people realize. I have many friends who already have pretty bad health problems, and they're only in their 20s. I have no idea why this is happening, but I believe stress and hopelessness must be playing a large role. Kids can't seem to afford to do anything in this city except abuse drugs and vandalize. The aboriginal population in this city is even worse off. I feel really bad for most of my friends and wish I could help. People think Vancouver is a really diverse city, but it is the most segregated city I have ever been to. The Chinese live in Richmond and West Van, the Indians live in Surrey, and the other ethnicities (Aboriginals, Caucasians, etc.) are getting squeezed in the middle. It's quite sad. Edit: Not just white people, I also mentioned aboriginals. I also have some chinese and indian friends who face the same issues, but I did not mention them due to the nature of the article. I grew up in the suburbs where the real problems seem to be much more obvious than a city-dweller who can safely live in his or her bubble and ignore the real issues. Don't really give a fuck what most of you think. If you want to see unhappy people, take a drive out to Delta or Surrey. Note: I am not comparing Vancouver to Oakland or some other ghettos, I was attempting to compare it to other major western cities. But obviously I have to be perfect with my words, otherwise I will leave myself open to leeches.

kylepdm 12y ago
Really? One of the "worst" places? edit: Like I completely agree with the sentiment that Vancouver is just too expensive to live in. But one of the "worst" places in the Western world is a pretty ridiculous hyperbole. Just as a reference point, where exactly else have you lived?
vangroovy 12y ago
I've lived in Vancouver for 15 years and have no idea how you can even come close to those conclusions. Maybe you live in a different world than me but I have never felt close to unsafe in the city and don't know anyone with health problems in their 20's. Yeah, buying a house is expensive but rent isn't unreasonable if you're ok with roommates. In the summer I'd argue its one of the best cities in the western world. Beaches, mountains, and beautiful people.

allochthon 12y ago

The article reminds me of a real estate agent in Miami, who on the radio called the apartments out there "apartment-shaped financial instruments." (In Vancouver, apparently, they are detached homes.) This seems to be a recurring theme in certain cities, e.g., Vancouver, San Francisco, London, New York.

msie 12y ago
Somehow the people of Vancouver think they can avoid the fate of those other cities.
- curiously 12y ago
  Especially when they say, 'oh but our banking and financial system is sound' without any knowledge of the subject.
eigenvector 12y ago
The difference between Vancouver and SF/London/NYC is that it has no accompanying income boom to make the real estate prices affordable for working people. There's no significant financial or tech industry. Nobody gets rich from working in Vancouver. In fact, Vancouver tech jobs generally pay _less_ than other Canadian cities despite the greatly higher cost of living.
- msie 12y ago
  Vancouver firms can offer less pay because there aren't many alternatives when it comes to Canadian cities for a tech worker. Let's see...Toronto, Montreal, Waterloo and Calgary. And the winter weather east of the Rockies is horrible.
  - eigenvector 12y ago
    I agree, as the only Canadian city west of the Rockies Vancouver employers seem to think they don't need to compete with Toronto/Montreal/Calgary pay. And to a certain extent they're right. But with more and more US firms hiring Canadians on TN visas, the new competition is Seattle/SF.

goalieca 12y ago

From Vancouver, love the city but had to leave. Almost all of my friends left too. Cost of living was one thing but the quality of life just wasn't there for the suburban commuters and the city always felt depressed. There was no heart beat when walking the streets.

badsock 12y ago
I lived there for a couple of years, and couldn't agree more. There's a lot of awesome people making their best efforts to counter it, but really it's a dead city. I remember realizing that all the cafes closed around 6 or 7 in the downtown area, then finding out it was because of lack of demand. A city of 2.5 million people that can't keep a coffee shop open past dinner - coming from Toronto it was bizarre. I also remember the absolutely awful experience of trying to find an appartment to rent. There were so many people competing that we had to line up and "audition" - I ended up getting to know a lot of my fellow contestants by name because you had to show up to practically every single Craigslist listing if you were to have half a chance. Then finally getting a place and seeing that half of apartments in the towers around us were empty. Vancouver in the 80's was apparently one the hippest places in Canada, definitely not any more.
- cpncrunch 12y ago
  I've lived in various places in Canada, and now live on mid Vancouver Island, which IMO has the best overall quality of life anywhere in Canada (if not the world). You get the same amazing scenery and outdoor activities, but with reasonable property prices and no traffic or urban sprawl. I live in a luxury, new 1200sqft townhome which I rent for $1200/month, I can walk into town or to the sea, and I'm 15 mins from Vancouver by floatplane (well, about an hour once you add the drive to Harbour Air, etc).
- starky 12y ago
  I've lived in Vancouver since 2007 and have rented 3 places within the city and 2 in the suburbs (Richmond and Maple Ridge). I was only turned down from getting the place I wanted once, and that was purely because I called back an hour after I said I would respond and the landlady had given it to another person.

raquo 12y ago

If you look at the ruling party's donor list it shouldn't come as a surprise. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371306-vv-pre-election-disclosure.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371306-vv-pre-elect... Oh wait, corporate contributions are only a tiny percentage! Wow, this party is funded by The People! Now scroll all the way down (previous to last page) to see corporate donors. Observe every single developer in Vancouver being on that list donating tens of thousands of dollars, more than any other corporation. Notice how that doesn't stack up with the pie chart you just saw. Now scroll back to the top of the page to and observe that the contribution-bysource piechart is by number of contributions rather than by aggregate value. This should tell you enough.

maged 12y ago
Which party is this?
- raquo 12y ago
  Vision Vancouver

msie 12y ago

This is a really tiresome issue for me. Lots of xenophobia and misinformation. As much as I hate an absentee owner tax maybe it would shut up the racists. I fear the issue isn't the high property prices.

sterl 12y ago

This is the most misinformed comments thread I've ever seen on Hacker News.

aaron695 12y ago
I think intelligent HN readers are starting to just skip these racist/entitlement based real estate posts. I hope.

curiously 12y ago

Funny, this was on /r/vancouver not too long ago. There's so many things broken with Vancouver but nobody is willing to confront these out of fear of displeasing the wrong crowd that backs them into power. In other major cities, there's very good protection against foreign ownership of properties to prevent the exact situation vancouver is in. In other major cities, there's a strong and large economy to grow with the cities cost of living. Vancouver's wages have remained unchanged for a few decades, barely adjusting for inflation. Having grown up in Vancouver, I feel sad, sad that I have to leave my hometown to find better opportunities. I find that most sane people have already left Vancouver, including my circles. Senior engineers are hard to find in Vancouver because nobody with a family are willing to stick around for a low salary and high cost of living. Employees know that the labor market is tight and that people are desperate for jobs, and frequently exploit them. Tech companies are strapped for cash, large tech companies come to Vancouver to hire foreigners (Microsoft being the most controversial to date), video game industry is unstable. Vancouver is a sinking ship.

olalonde 12y ago

Surprised there was no mention of Hong Kong as Vancouver is often dubbed Hongcouver and Hong Kong has to deal with the same kind of problems right now (that is, the younger generation can't afford to live there).

nas 12y ago
> the younger generation can't afford to live there So live somewhere else. I don't really get the problem, seems like normal market forces to me. Canada is a huge country.
- hellgas00 12y ago
  If only humans were robots without emotional attachments, family or a desire for happiness, applying market solutions to problems would be so easy! Being priced out of the city you grew up in because foreign investors are looking for a place to hide money safely is not good for a city in the long run, or its inhabitants. Perhaps more stringent foreign ownership rules could be applied and produces an effect that didn't require the next generation to pack up and leave for greener pastures.
- vlasev 12y ago
  Canada is huge but the nice livable places are few and far between.

narrator 12y ago

All the money flooding into Vancouver is the results of billions and billions of dollars flooding out the U.S trade deficit, hitting China, and boomeranging back into hard assets all over the world.

LiweiZ 12y ago
Insightful comment buried again. +1
- cylinder 12y ago
  Because it doesn't add much value. Most/all western countries have a trade deficit, especially with China, these days. So what? Are we going to propose that the solution to fixing Vancouver is "achieve US trade surplus" and "stop rich Chinese people existing"
  - LiweiZ 12y ago
    Viewing the issue from a more macro perspective is way less appreciated here. Micro and macro perspectives are both essential to have a deeper understanding before there is some kind of methodology to unify every dimension (the possibility for this happening is really low in social science, and economics is considered as social science by some). It's just my personal point of view and my own preference. Also, it's not easy to propose a nice solution without taking the systemic limit into account. People are prone to enjoy debating on symptoms instead digging deeper to find those causes. I myself find many comments in the lower half are more valuable. The byproduct of HN's comments seems a better fit for me. However, without the existence of major upvoted comments, there would be no such byproduct.
nzp 12y ago
Funny how the globalization stick has two ends, isn't it? Who'd a thunk it!

dennispi 12y ago

I live in Vancouver, and have for many years.. as such, I hope I can try and help inform an otherwise misinformed set of posts. I suspect they're off-base largely because a lot has changed since some of the authors of other posts have lived here. First, there are many technology companies in Vancouver. Hootsuite, Bench, A Thinking Ape, Clio, Slack, Amazon.. these are just the ones that came to mind. I know authoritatively that each and every single one is looking for senior sales, marketing, engineering and product talent. Here is a slightly more comprehensive list: http://www.techvibes.com/company-directory/vancouver/tag/startup http://www.techvibes.com/company-directory/vancouver/tag/sta... Is the tech ecosystem as big as in SF? No.. but where else is it? Second, yes.. it is an incredibly expensive place to live. Part of this is due to the large number of homes which are owned by foreigners and are vacant. I'm not aware of a concrete way of measuring this.. but anecdotally, I suspect it's close to 30-40% of the downtown residential core. This is definitely a worrisome issue, but too complex to cover in just a few lines of this post. Third, be careful not to compare (downtown) Vancouver with it's suburbs. The downtown core is one of the few places in the world where people live and work in the same area... there are a multitude of activities. As many as you'd expect of a city of this size. Finally, commutes range from 5-30 minutes (and that's going to cover people who walk, bike and take transit). Vancouver is consistently rated as one of the most livable cities in the world.. but there will definitely need to be changes if we want that to continue to be the case in the long term.

edwinnathaniel 12y ago
Hear hear! Here's my comment to back up dennispi post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9245915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9245915 As per my post (the TL;DR summary here...): Intermediate Engineer 90k or more, Senior 110k or more. Better health insurance/coverage. For example: child-birth cost almost nothing (VIP room costs $100 ish for 2-3 days after corp. insurance cover the rest, regular room is covered by basic health insurance I think). >Finally, commutes range from 5-30 minutes (and that's going to cover people who walk, bike and take transit). I'd like put that in bold (as stated in my comment as well). This is different compare to the States where Highway is the One True Way :). (I used to live in LA before settling down in Vancouver).

edwinnathaniel 12y ago

Vancouver seems to get better (at least from my perspective) in terms of tech-hub and while my opinions seem to pain pretty picture of Vancouver, I think some of the concern are legit when it comes to the inflated real estate price. Anyhow, here we go: Amazon plans to hire 1000 people for their new office. Despite the claim that they only do interview but not hiring I think that's misinformed. They _are_ hiring people. I know a few people who work there and have a friend who's friend was hired there not too long ago. They have private invite sessions once in a while too. Microsoft said that they're hiring 400 people for their new Vancouver HQ. They also had a private invite sessions around the end of 2014. The recruiter stated that they're hiring 120 people within a year, and more to come. Sounds like they will do this in phase. Body shop like Facebook and Twitter pointed out up-front that they only do training and only hire fresh-grad to be shipped to the USA. Salesforce is ACTIVELY hiring in Vancouver. They poached my co-worker last year. I've been hearing that their offer is in the range of 120-140k for intermediate engineer. 90k is the minimum current rate for intermediate engineer for mid-size to BigCo (Salesforce being the outlier). Small-to-mid offers around 70k to high 80k with laid-back/better work-life balance and frequent to work from home. Source: recruiters, I know some of them and have maintain good relationship. SauceLabs is recruiting with 4 current "seed" employees for their Vancouver branch. I know someone tried to recruit a Vancouver-based OpenDNS employee where the requested salary is between $110k-120k. I can only guess OpenDNS paid their employee here probably around 90k or more. A Thinking Ape (YC backed) is here. Mozilla has a medium-sized presence here. The list goes on. So whether the pay is low, I'd say that's relative. I don't know the compensation for the rest of the USA cities except SF and Seattle. Seattle is nice but damn... the food, the outdoor, the culture, the diversity are below Vancouver (I spent a short stint in MS). The commute is also bad. Also don't forget we have basic health insurance and probably "saner" government. Let's go over the real-estate a little bit: I've been scouting and am invited to a few "VIP sessions" for apartments and townhouses (the kind of estate that none of these rich Chinese would probably buy since it's below their range; they only buy fancy houses no?) hold by the developers. Most of the sessions I went to usually managed to sell 100% of their "phase one" development and 70% of their "phase two" development. Somehow there seems to be an influx of buyers and NO, they're not dominated by mainland Chinese people. A friend of mine recently purchased a townhouse (3 floors, 3br, 2.5 bath, super small backyard, 1400sq ft finished, brand-new, new appliances, etc) for $599k in the suburb, very close to the train station (10 mins walk), 20 minutes via train to Downtown core. This location is quite ideal too: near the biggest mall in Vancouver, relatively good suburban area, close to food and entertainments. My manager came from Down Under (Oz) and said that at least he can afford an apartment in the downtown area that does not blow a huge hole on his wallet compare to Sydney (NSW). Rent is definitely cheaper compare to the big cities (Sydney, NYC, SF, LA): 1400-1500 1br in downtown area, a wee bit more expensive in the posh-downtown area or near the Coal Harbour. 1200 for decent size 1-br apartment near the biggest Mall in GVRD (Greater Vancouver District). Do keep in mind that the public transportation is pretty good compare to most cities I've ever been to (except Singapore, HK, NYC, or London). The buses and trains are well maintained despite a few occasional service hiccups. I've taken BART in SF before, smelly, dingy, weird people, and slightly more complex fare calculation. I've taken Sydney (NSW) train before, still manual (operated by human), not frequent, more expensive. Vancouver also has an "express" train (different path/route than the main stream) that connects the downtown core and some of the further suburbs. The city keeps improving and expanding the train services further east to cover more area. A few years ago the city just wraps up the line that connects the airport to the end of the Downtown core where the Cruise sails, where the startup/hip/US-branch companies have offices. The path takes about 30 minutes trip. And whenever someone said "40 minutes driving" from downtown core, that's 40 minutes via REGULAR street/road not Highway like in the USA. In the States, the default is almost always "Highway" if you're coming from the 'burbs. In Vancouver, it's just a normal street which means distance wise is not that far. Crime rate is very low around here.

raverbashing 12y ago

". Vancouver has experienced no commensurate economic or income boom" Then it's not a boom, it's a bubble. It's that simple

serge2k 12y ago
The money is flowing into the housing market from outside, so the bubble is free to keep growing until that flow gets cutoff.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rbobby 12y ago

> One problem was that its figures excluded the tens of thousands of Canadians (30-50% of whom estimated to buy property in Vancouver) who bought their residency through the recently defunct Immigrant Investor Program. Hold on a second. I think it's pretty rude, and bordering on xenophobic, that the author wants to call these folks foreigners. Especially if you turn it around and say outright what he's suggesting: People who gained their citizenship through the Immigrant Investor program aren't _real_ citizens like us. Immigrants _are_ Canadians... even folks who used the Immigrant Investor Program.

twic 12y ago
The article does touch on this: > According to our Immigration Minister “There is little evidence that immigrant investors as a class are maintaining ties to Canada or making a positive economic contribution to the country”. Indeed, there is an estimated 300,000 – 400,000 Canadians living in China, the majority of whom are ethnic Chinese. If someone who started life as a foreigner, with no ties to Canada at all, comes along and essentially buys Canadian citizenship, then continues living in China, do they stop being a foreigner? Whilst they are indisputably Canadian citizens, i would say they aren't Canadian in any other sense, and so yes, they are still foreign. They aren't even immigrants, as they never immigrated! Whereas, of course, someone who moves to Canada and makes a life there is a real immigrant, and becomes a real Canadian. I don't think the author of the article would dispute that.
- rbobby 12y ago
  Kinda doubling down on the whole "they're not real canadians" thing aren't ya? Here's an interesting study from U.Ottawa in 2010: http://sciencessociales.uottawa.ca/grei-rgei/fra/documents/Ware_Fortin_Paradis_Canada_IIP_Report_English.pdf http://sciencessociales.uottawa.ca/grei-rgei/fra/documents/W... Of interest: 1986-2010 only 130,000 individuals gained citizenship via the immigrant investor program. Of those about 32,000 were the primary applicant, and 97,000 were family members (on average 3... so wife + 2 kids). This bit is also pretty telling: > Contrary to popular belief, a majority of respondents (82%) reside in Canada on average between 10 and 12 months a year (Table 4). In addition, another 11% of respondents indicated that they stay in Canada for 7 to 9 months a year. The only official and comparable figures on this topic come from the province of Quebec, where about half of all immigrant investors who landed in Canada since 2003 still lived in the country in 2007 (Figure 12). Our survey results give a higher estimate on a national basis of the proportion of immigrant investors who reside permanently in Canada compared with statistics from the province of Quebec Trusting the Conservatives to tell the truth about immigration issues is foolish. The minister's comments are directly refuted by this study. Especially his "or making a positive economic impact"... here's a quote from the start of the study: > The Program clearly constitutes a positive economic initiative for Canada. Considering that about 2,500 immigrant investor families enter Canada each year, this means that the Program provides an annual economic contribution of $1.9 to $2 billion to the Canadian economy

fit2rule 12y ago

The same story could be told about a number of Western cities. Perth, Australia - for example - is another city that has gone through massively over-inflated property prices as, over the last few decades, foreign investors come to the place, see its beauty, and - because they have the context of other major, metropolitan wasteland-cities - heavily invest. To me this really means that those of us who live in the privileged band of Western civilization really need to get out of our little bubbles and go and see how the rest of the world really lives. If you're in some safe, comfortable city on the edge of it all - go pierce the heart of human civilization, and see what life is like in Hong Kong, Shanghai, or any other major metropolis in Europe for example. Being ignorant of the teeming masses is how these over-inflated bubbles occur in the first place - if you think your lifestyle is great, beware the attention it will gain from those who have managed to accrue substantial wealth, in lesser circumstances ... complacency and decadence will always be exploited by those who have run the gauntlet of human civilization.

michaelochurch 12y ago

Kudos to this article for pointing out the problem: absentee foreign investors, often laundering dirty money. Real estate in the most desirable cities is becoming the 21st century's Nazi Gold: stolen wealth that is parked in another country, and with too many third-party beneficiaries who refuse to do the right thing. Here's another factor that doesn't get much play: price inelasticity. Consider the 1970s oil crises. A 5% drop in supply availability would cause prices to go up 4-5 times. People can look at the statistics and say, "This only effects 10% of property, so it's not a big deal." Wrong. A small amount of supply destruction or removal can have a huge effect on the price. Why do you think De Beers sits on vaults of unused diamonds? Inelasticity has an interesting effect of creating a lot of fake wealth, which is why so many people are complicit in the crime: Baby Boomer NIMBYs in California who don't give a damn either way about Chinese corruption or money laundering, but who become financially vested in blocking any positive change that might threaten property values by increasing supply (i.e. letting the market do what it's fucking supposed to do). Too many people are afraid to appear politically incorrect by blaming overseas malefactors. First, it's not just "the Chinese". It's corrupt officials and criminals from all over the world: including some from rich European countries like Italy and France. You don't see them in the SF or Vancouver market, but you have a lot of European drug kingpins buying in Manhattan. Second: these people are the exact opposite of the traditional immigrants that made (and are continuing to make) the U.S. and Canada great. The traditional immigrants were and are trying to get away from poverty, oppression, and a lack of opportunity. They were trying to escape the flaws of other (often corrupt and failing) societies. We welcomed them with open arms, as we should, even though many of them had nothing in terms of economic wealth. These new buyers are the opposite, because they often don't live here (and won't, unless they get caught stealing from their home countries and have to escape) and because they are just trying to park their ill-gotten assets somewhere. Instead of trying to escape from corrupt societies, they're people who actively profit from overseas corruption and our using our real estate to launder their loot.

api 12y ago
Real estate hyperinflation is a scourge of the modern world. It is time for cities and even countries to act to curtail absentee landlords playing Ponzi games with real estate to the extreme detriment of cities, culture, and the real economy. This is the worst kind of non productive market pathology... Worse in many ways than stock market bubbles and non-physical financial Ponzi schemes. Kudos for pointing out the complicity of baby boomer land owners in this. It's another way for them to screw their children, something they've been systemically good at.

kyllo 12y ago

Seattle is objectively a much better place to live right now if you can. It has cheaper housing (at least for now), more and higher-paying jobs, especially in tech. But Vancouver is a beautiful city and has better Asian food. Every once in a while my wife and I drive up there on the weekend to walk around the city and eat some fantastic Chinese food. We fantasize about living in Vancouver, but in the end it just doesn't make any economic sense.

harvey56 12y ago

This article could have been written replacing the words Canada and Vancouver by resp. Australia and Sydney. It is exactly the same thing happening in Aus. Australia introduced that significant investor visa program which the facts show that it is about 90% of PRC people coming in with their clean or not so clean money. Investment, in the context of this visa scheme, is mostly about property speculation. Property prices in Sydney are very high and locals and migrants who work here cannot afford. The government introduced negative gearing to help to inflate that property bubble. As in Canada, Australia agreed to co operate with the Chinese gov to help track those Chinese who run away with all their dirty money, which almost always end up in property. I am renting now and have been inspecting units for a year as I wanted to buy. At any inspection I went, other people walking in were mostly PRC. not australian asians. you can tell from their strong accent. Whenever I made an offer, above the asking price, there was a chinese to outbid by like 10% the price of the unit. You sometimes hear sick conversations between the potential buyer and the agent like once that young PRC girl who asked the agent : "I already have 2 units here and am planning to buy another one; if I buy this one can I still get the first home owner grant ?" (I really heard that I'm not joking). Few times, at the end of an inspection, when I would ask questions to the agent, he would answer me : "I have a call scheduled tonight with the owner in china, I will ask him". if they really want to track the dirty money pouring in Australia, it's not that hard. You see houses that sell for $3 million whereas they sold for $1.5 million only exactly one year earlier. In Sydney inner west, I can see every day luxury cars driven by young chinese kids. Seriously the guy does not even have pubic hair yet and he's driving a custom bentley. There are parts of the city that do not necessarily look luxurious : no luxury goods shops around, average condition roads, very few shops and restaurants, though you feel like you are in monaco when you look at the cars around. I don't know what can be done about it. Wish for a serious financial crash in china, or wish for the politics to really mean what they say, or wish for a lot more crime (which would encourage those people to look elsewhere to spend their money), or find ways to move to smaller towns where all that dirty money has not been yet and property is still available ?