11 ms·

There seems to be a movement to accept any and all behaviors of children on the spectrum, and from the comments on this otherwise excellent article ("I resemble

There seems to be a movement to accept any and all behaviors of children on the spectrum, and from the comments on this otherwise excellent article ("I resemble that remark!") there are people that see any interventions or attempts to treat these children as abusive. My six year daughter is asperger (or would be if that were still distinct) and frankly her behavior is not just disruptive but absolutely horrible - she tantrums, bites and hurts anyone around her when she can't properly communicate her current "need" - and that need may be something completely unreasonable like ordering that the Santa at the mall be immediately removed from her vacinity. Not all behaviors of autistic children - or adults - is ok and to be be cherished as a "difference". There are some behaviors that are fine - obsessions about dinosaurs, say, but there are many more that must be addressed before the child enters society. Smearing yourself with poo is NOT one of those differences that should be embraced. Sorry, ranty after an afternoon having the shit kicked out of me because I wouldn't forward the Harry Potter audiobook to the correct precise instant she wants.

i14ng 12y ago
As with any child, one can address behavior issues without shaming or hating who the child is. In an adult relationship, it's the difference between "You make me feel bad when you do xyz" and "Why do you always have to be such an a-hole" - these are two very different ways to raise an issue. That's what many (including me) are saying about autism. The point is not to cherish harmful behaviors. The point is to cherish the children who are different. Their differences make it harder for them to learn some behaviors, but they do have a positive side much of the time. My son is awesome and I would change nothing. Personally I find him much easier to get along with than "typical" kids.
- gress 12y ago
  In addition to this, bearing in mind that people with autism process emotion differently, it is very likely that shaming is an ineffective way to promote learning.
jstoiko 12y ago
> is asperger (or would be if that were still distinct) What do you mean by that?
- indlebe 12y ago
  Aspergers in the medical community is no longer distinct from ASD (autism spectrum disorder)
  - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
    Specifically it was folded into ASD in the DSM-5, the 2013 edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The change was rather controversial, and in any case the DSM is only considered gospel in the USA. (As a person with autism/Asperger's, I'm not sure I have a strong opinion. Asperger's is clearly at least related to autism, and the autistic spectrum is a pretty broad umbrella anyway.)
- salgernon 12y ago
  When initially diagnosed, the doctor refused to write a diagnosis become the new DSM was about to be published, and she wanted us to come back In two months once it was published so she could write the disgnosis as autism spectrum disorder. Aspergers is now considered part of the autistic spectrum rather than a distinct diagnosis - and this is particularly only really important when considering what services are made available. For instance, having the autism disgnosis allows the public school she attends to pay for an individual aid for her in a mainstream first grade class, while a year ago, Aspergers as a diagnosis would have fallen through the cracks sand she might have been sent to a special education classroom because of her disruptive behavior.
  - jstoiko 12y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. I have heard a similar story before.
salgernon 12y ago
One other completely unrelated thought on this matter is that I really think that 1000 years ago, children that exhibited the type of developmental problems I've described would likely have been left in the fields to perish. The Germanic myths around "elves" stealing children and replacing them with "changelings" often referred to as "oafs" seems to correlate with the behavior changes commonly seen around 3 years old in autistic children. The myths that I've researched commonly described parents leaving their "changeling children" outside in the hopes that the elves would return their original children - but three year olds are not best known for their survival skills even when they're not autistic...
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  I'd think they would get beaten first before being left out in the fields. To quote wikipedia[0] on the matter: > Until quite recently, children had very few rights in regard to protection from abuse by their parents, and still continue to do so in many parts of the world. Historically, fathers had virtually unlimited rights in regard to their children and how they chose to discipline them. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse#History
- jseliger 12y ago
  Take a look at David Lancy's The Anthropology of Childhood; he describes in extensive, verging on exhaustive, detail precisely what you're saying. I just read it and wrote much more about the book here: http://jakeseliger.com/2015/03/05/thoughts-on-the-anthropology-of-childhood-by-david-lancy http://jakeseliger.com/2015/03/05/thoughts-on-the-anthropolo....
scoggs 12y ago
I see where you are coming from and I felt urges to leave a comment on that page for reasons similar and others as well. It's almost as if the diagnosis permits the parents to allow their children to misbehave. The diagnosis explains away the need to punish them, it's just the way "I made my kid". That sounds worse if you ask me!
- kstenerud 12y ago
  > It's almost as if the diagnosis permits the parents to allow their children to misbehave. It may seem that way on the outside, but that's only because you haven't lived on the inside. It's about understanding where these behaviors come from so that you and your child are better equipped to deal with them.
- wvenable 12y ago
  Before my son was diagnosed with any issues and before we had guidance, my son was is a constant state of being punished for behaviors that any parent would punish for. He hit the age where children become defiant and push boundaries and, having already had another older kid, we thought we knew what we were doing. It turns out that really my son was suffering and punishing him for his behavior wasn't helping him. He was miserable, we were miserable, and nothing was improving. Only once we understood what we dealing with and changed away from thinking of his behavior as misbehaving did we start to make progress. And now he's a wonderful well behaved kid. I think it's really important for kids with actual issues to be diagnosed. For every kid were diagnosis might possibly permit parents to make excuses for their children, I suspect there are 10 more with frustrated parents doing all the wrong things.
DanBC 12y ago
> There seems to be a movement to accept any and all behaviors of children on the spectrum, I would be interested to see comments made by people who use the diagnosis to excuse poor behaviour. (Edit: I reworded this to be less confrontational and less angry. Sorry for original wording.) I am aware of people struggling to get more acceptance of neuro diversity. That's because they're fed-up of being mocked (if lucky) or murdered (less lucky) by police http://www.inquisitr.com/1726930/alabama-police-officers-recorded-mocking-special-needs-children-at-a-local-learning-center/ http://www.inquisitr.com/1726930/alabama-police-officers-rec... http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/5-times-police-killed-people-mental-disabilities http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/5-times-police-kille... http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/06/29/37770.htm http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/06/29/37770.htm > DAYTON, Ohio (CN) - Dayton police "mistook" a mentally handicapped teenager's speech impediment for "disrespect," so they Tasered, pepper-sprayed and beat him and called for backup from "upward of 20 police officers" after the boy rode his bicycle home to ask his mother for help, the boy's mom says. It's not really surprising that neuro-atypical people are getting militant when they're faced with widespread discrimination that causes shorter, less good, lives.
- zaroth 12y ago
  I think @salgernon was expressing his perception, practically in the form of a question, seeking constructive dialog on the topic. I think a call for citation followed by random anecdote is not a great response to an invitation for a thoughtful dialog with someone with unique experience in the field. I'm not sure if you're talking about a completely different issue, or the flip side of the same coin. Awareness and sensitivity to others' abilities I guess could be on the same spectrum as making excuses for violent behavior, but I think it's different forces at play. We definitely need more empathy in this world (and lets not even get into police assault here). But at the same time, there can be a good reason why a child is misbehaving or even acting violently, but that behavior is still unacceptable. I've never personally experienced the parent who feels like their child is entitled to their kid's violent outburst in public space ____, but certainly we hear the stories. More often, I just feel awful for parents who are dealing with a meltdown in the moment, because, been there, done that. As a parent in that situation, it's usually just, "ok, lets get the heck out of here." As a parent watching those situations, I always want to help somehow, but it seems like there's a huge taboo to even acknowledge the situation, let alone try to intervene. Personally I'd be too afraid to even open my mouth because the other parent would assume I was going to chastise them rather than try to help somehow.
Hytosys 12y ago
I feel your frustration, too. ASD is a phenomenon very poorly understood by the general public. Luckily, science is leading the way (as usual) and providing us with methodology such as pivotal response therapy. The future is bright.
e12e 12y ago
> There seems to be a movement to accept any and all behaviors of children on the spectrum, and from the comments on this otherwise excellent article ("I resemble that remark!") there are people that see any interventions or attempts to treat these children as abusive. Maybe. But there's another trend that's beneficial, and can sometimes be mistaken for "everything is acceptable/justifiable/let it be" -- and that is the movement to understand any and all behaviours. The latter is very important in diagnosing and helping children. In order to know what is abnormal, we must first find out what is normal. And a helpful, meaningful definition of "normal" certainly isn't as simple as "what I/we used to do as children". It is rather unfortunate when children services, psychologists and teachers are sometimes so wrong/ignorant that such a simple definition of normality is actually better than what the "professionals" live by. Thankfully that is also something that can be and is being improved with education (and research).
biehl 12y ago
Hi. Does your daughter have stomach problems? Have you worked with that in any way? http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0068322 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....
simonebrunozzi 12y ago
Sad to hear about your situation. A very close friend of mine is in a similar one, and I see how his life is. It's hard. I always tell him he's lucky to have a lot of faith, otherwise I don't know how he would have coped with it (I wouldn't have been able to, in his shoes).
overgryphon 12y ago
You're reading too much into the article than is there. The father in the article mentioned speech therapy, therapists and lots of doctors. It's clear that he is doing what he can to help his daughter, this particular article just wasn't about that part. This article was about self-acceptance, about accepting something about yourself and your family that you didn't choose. That doesn't mean that he ignores it, or doesn't work to change his daughter's behavior. Acceptance doesn't require you do nothing. Acceptance can help see all the ways the disorder is impacting things more clearly, and that can lead to more effective interventions. (Side note- I do absolutely agree with you on the current trend of explaining away mental disorders as gifts, 'differences' to be tolerated, or evolutionary trends that don't make sense anymore. No, autism\ADHD\ect are not a gift. Serious disorders that affect all aspects of your life are not something to celebrate or ignore.)

i14ng 12y ago

As with any child, one can address behavior issues without shaming or hating who the child is. In an adult relationship, it's the difference between "You make me feel bad when you do xyz" and "Why do you always have to be such an a-hole" - these are two very different ways to raise an issue. That's what many (including me) are saying about autism. The point is not to cherish harmful behaviors. The point is to cherish the children who are different. Their differences make it harder for them to learn some behaviors, but they do have a positive side much of the time. My son is awesome and I would change nothing. Personally I find him much easier to get along with than "typical" kids.

gress 12y ago
In addition to this, bearing in mind that people with autism process emotion differently, it is very likely that shaming is an ineffective way to promote learning.

jstoiko 12y ago

> is asperger (or would be if that were still distinct) What do you mean by that?

indlebe 12y ago
Aspergers in the medical community is no longer distinct from ASD (autism spectrum disorder)
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  Specifically it was folded into ASD in the DSM-5, the 2013 edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The change was rather controversial, and in any case the DSM is only considered gospel in the USA. (As a person with autism/Asperger's, I'm not sure I have a strong opinion. Asperger's is clearly at least related to autism, and the autistic spectrum is a pretty broad umbrella anyway.)
salgernon 12y ago
When initially diagnosed, the doctor refused to write a diagnosis become the new DSM was about to be published, and she wanted us to come back In two months once it was published so she could write the disgnosis as autism spectrum disorder. Aspergers is now considered part of the autistic spectrum rather than a distinct diagnosis - and this is particularly only really important when considering what services are made available. For instance, having the autism disgnosis allows the public school she attends to pay for an individual aid for her in a mainstream first grade class, while a year ago, Aspergers as a diagnosis would have fallen through the cracks sand she might have been sent to a special education classroom because of her disruptive behavior.
- jstoiko 12y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. I have heard a similar story before.

salgernon 12y ago

One other completely unrelated thought on this matter is that I really think that 1000 years ago, children that exhibited the type of developmental problems I've described would likely have been left in the fields to perish. The Germanic myths around "elves" stealing children and replacing them with "changelings" often referred to as "oafs" seems to correlate with the behavior changes commonly seen around 3 years old in autistic children. The myths that I've researched commonly described parents leaving their "changeling children" outside in the hopes that the elves would return their original children - but three year olds are not best known for their survival skills even when they're not autistic...

xtrumanx 12y ago
I'd think they would get beaten first before being left out in the fields. To quote wikipedia[0] on the matter: > Until quite recently, children had very few rights in regard to protection from abuse by their parents, and still continue to do so in many parts of the world. Historically, fathers had virtually unlimited rights in regard to their children and how they chose to discipline them. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse#History
jseliger 12y ago
Take a look at David Lancy's The Anthropology of Childhood; he describes in extensive, verging on exhaustive, detail precisely what you're saying. I just read it and wrote much more about the book here: http://jakeseliger.com/2015/03/05/thoughts-on-the-anthropology-of-childhood-by-david-lancy http://jakeseliger.com/2015/03/05/thoughts-on-the-anthropolo....

scoggs 12y ago

I see where you are coming from and I felt urges to leave a comment on that page for reasons similar and others as well. It's almost as if the diagnosis permits the parents to allow their children to misbehave. The diagnosis explains away the need to punish them, it's just the way "I made my kid". That sounds worse if you ask me!

kstenerud 12y ago
> It's almost as if the diagnosis permits the parents to allow their children to misbehave. It may seem that way on the outside, but that's only because you haven't lived on the inside. It's about understanding where these behaviors come from so that you and your child are better equipped to deal with them.
wvenable 12y ago
Before my son was diagnosed with any issues and before we had guidance, my son was is a constant state of being punished for behaviors that any parent would punish for. He hit the age where children become defiant and push boundaries and, having already had another older kid, we thought we knew what we were doing. It turns out that really my son was suffering and punishing him for his behavior wasn't helping him. He was miserable, we were miserable, and nothing was improving. Only once we understood what we dealing with and changed away from thinking of his behavior as misbehaving did we start to make progress. And now he's a wonderful well behaved kid. I think it's really important for kids with actual issues to be diagnosed. For every kid were diagnosis might possibly permit parents to make excuses for their children, I suspect there are 10 more with frustrated parents doing all the wrong things.

DanBC 12y ago

> There seems to be a movement to accept any and all behaviors of children on the spectrum, I would be interested to see comments made by people who use the diagnosis to excuse poor behaviour. (Edit: I reworded this to be less confrontational and less angry. Sorry for original wording.) I am aware of people struggling to get more acceptance of neuro diversity. That's because they're fed-up of being mocked (if lucky) or murdered (less lucky) by police http://www.inquisitr.com/1726930/alabama-police-officers-recorded-mocking-special-needs-children-at-a-local-learning-center/ http://www.inquisitr.com/1726930/alabama-police-officers-rec... http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/5-times-police-killed-people-mental-disabilities http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/5-times-police-kille... http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/06/29/37770.htm http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/06/29/37770.htm > DAYTON, Ohio (CN) - Dayton police "mistook" a mentally handicapped teenager's speech impediment for "disrespect," so they Tasered, pepper-sprayed and beat him and called for backup from "upward of 20 police officers" after the boy rode his bicycle home to ask his mother for help, the boy's mom says. It's not really surprising that neuro-atypical people are getting militant when they're faced with widespread discrimination that causes shorter, less good, lives.

zaroth 12y ago
I think @salgernon was expressing his perception, practically in the form of a question, seeking constructive dialog on the topic. I think a call for citation followed by random anecdote is not a great response to an invitation for a thoughtful dialog with someone with unique experience in the field. I'm not sure if you're talking about a completely different issue, or the flip side of the same coin. Awareness and sensitivity to others' abilities I guess could be on the same spectrum as making excuses for violent behavior, but I think it's different forces at play. We definitely need more empathy in this world (and lets not even get into police assault here). But at the same time, there can be a good reason why a child is misbehaving or even acting violently, but that behavior is still unacceptable. I've never personally experienced the parent who feels like their child is entitled to their kid's violent outburst in public space ____, but certainly we hear the stories. More often, I just feel awful for parents who are dealing with a meltdown in the moment, because, been there, done that. As a parent in that situation, it's usually just, "ok, lets get the heck out of here." As a parent watching those situations, I always want to help somehow, but it seems like there's a huge taboo to even acknowledge the situation, let alone try to intervene. Personally I'd be too afraid to even open my mouth because the other parent would assume I was going to chastise them rather than try to help somehow.

Hytosys 12y ago

I feel your frustration, too. ASD is a phenomenon very poorly understood by the general public. Luckily, science is leading the way (as usual) and providing us with methodology such as pivotal response therapy. The future is bright.

e12e 12y ago

> There seems to be a movement to accept any and all behaviors of children on the spectrum, and from the comments on this otherwise excellent article ("I resemble that remark!") there are people that see any interventions or attempts to treat these children as abusive. Maybe. But there's another trend that's beneficial, and can sometimes be mistaken for "everything is acceptable/justifiable/let it be" -- and that is the movement to understand any and all behaviours. The latter is very important in diagnosing and helping children. In order to know what is abnormal, we must first find out what is normal. And a helpful, meaningful definition of "normal" certainly isn't as simple as "what I/we used to do as children". It is rather unfortunate when children services, psychologists and teachers are sometimes so wrong/ignorant that such a simple definition of normality is actually better than what the "professionals" live by. Thankfully that is also something that can be and is being improved with education (and research).

biehl 12y ago

Hi. Does your daughter have stomach problems? Have you worked with that in any way? http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0068322 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

simonebrunozzi 12y ago

Sad to hear about your situation. A very close friend of mine is in a similar one, and I see how his life is. It's hard. I always tell him he's lucky to have a lot of faith, otherwise I don't know how he would have coped with it (I wouldn't have been able to, in his shoes).

overgryphon 12y ago

You're reading too much into the article than is there. The father in the article mentioned speech therapy, therapists and lots of doctors. It's clear that he is doing what he can to help his daughter, this particular article just wasn't about that part. This article was about self-acceptance, about accepting something about yourself and your family that you didn't choose. That doesn't mean that he ignores it, or doesn't work to change his daughter's behavior. Acceptance doesn't require you do nothing. Acceptance can help see all the ways the disorder is impacting things more clearly, and that can lead to more effective interventions. (Side note- I do absolutely agree with you on the current trend of explaining away mental disorders as gifts, 'differences' to be tolerated, or evolutionary trends that don't make sense anymore. No, autism\ADHD\ect are not a gift. Serious disorders that affect all aspects of your life are not something to celebrate or ignore.)