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Hertz puts cameras in its rental cars, says it has no plans to use them
- bsbechtel 12y agoIt'll be up to consumers to decide if it bothers them or not. There are plenty of other rental car companies out there, not to mention a few startups trying to disrupt the space. If Hertz makes the wrong move here, they're going to hurt from it.
- hackuser 12y agoNot if the others do the same. For example, which smartphone will you buy that protects your privacy? Which app will you download? With expertise and effort, you might find some that meet your needs, but often competition and the marketplace provide no choice for consumers on important issues.
- bsbechtel 12y agoIf one company decides not to install cameras and consumers flock to that company, then they've decided. There are enough small rental car outfits out there that can't afford cameras to put this theory to the test. The rental car market is not the ogilopoly that is the tech hardware industry these days.
- PhantomGremlin 12y agoIt is an oligopoly, at least in the USA. See my previous post nearby. Business customers rent most of the cars. Most businesses have year-long contracts with one of the big companies. That way they get discounts on their rentals. They're not going to make a deal with a small "outfit" that doesn't have national airport coverage. That leaves leisure customers. Those are very price sensitive. They're not going to spend an extra nickel to rent a car w/o a camera. Sometimes they will put up with taking a shuttle to an off-airport rental to save a few bucks. But, and this is very important, the smaller companies are less sophisticated in terms of customer screening. So the smaller companies are more susceptible to being scammed by customers. So they will probably be even more eager than the big guys to installing cameras, GPSes, etc to keep track of their cars.
- PhantomGremlin 12y agoThere aren't "plenty of other rental car companies out there". It's an oligopoly. There are only three: Enterprise also owns National and Alamo. Avis also owns Budget, Payless, and Zipcar. Hertz also owns Dollar and Thrifty.
- bediger4000 12y agoRight, no distinct plans, but if a redhead with a really nice rack rents a car, well, then....
- ChuckMcM 12y agoWith no plan to use them, they suffer no economic harm if I remove it then right? :-) Or what if we put opaque camera lens stickers over them?
- pavel_lishin 12y ago> Or what if we put opaque camera lens stickers over them? I strongly recommend reading your rental agreement before doing this.
- windexh8er 12y agoAnd Hertz is going to do what exactly? Let's say I rent a vehicle and something happens to cover the camera. If in fact I get notified while I have the rental vehicle what Hertz has said publicly is a lie (epic failure scenario #1). Second, what are they going to do to me as the customer? Are they going to charge me a penalty for obstructing the camera (epic failure scenario #2)? Again - they would put themselves in an awkward position bringing about the infraction. With this in mind I will not rent from Hertz. If I am, however, forced to then I will take the risk of obscuring the camera. However knowing that there is a camera means there is likely a microphone as well - just as concerning, but much harder to obfuscate. Find the pinhole. Or I guess renting from Hertz will require either a short term fuse removal or clever cover for the "NeverLost" unit which will address audio and video.
- kaybe 12y agoHuh. For the last car I rented in Iceland, I was told that they had a GPS tracker on the car (supposedly only to be read with contact to the car) but would only check the data if there was a dispute about damage to the car which looks like it happened by driving one of the mountain roads (which is not allowed with 2WD).
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y agoHow often do you rent a car.
- tfe 12y agoI know I can obstruct the camera lens, but does anyone know how to effectively block the microphone on a device like this? Perhaps there is non-destructive way to remove power entirely?
- dragonwriter 12y agoThe simple solution is just don't use Hertz rental cars.
- abawany 12y agoI agree. I have been avoiding them since a nasty fracas where they wouldn't rent my reserved car to me without the credit card that I had used to reserve the car (even though I presented valid ID.) Trying to rent another car on the spot resulted in an atrocious quote, all while trying to talk to some guy on a screen instead of a real person behind the counter.
- evan_ 12y agoloud music
- pavel_lishin 12y agoRandom snippets of conversation.
- jessaustin 12y agoPerhaps there is non-destructive way to remove power entirely? Automobiles are equipped with fuse panels. Removing (then, presumably, replacing before returning the vehicle) the proper fuse would be non-destructive, and if this device is properly integrated, would do what you want. However, I wouldn't be surprised to find that this device is actually wired into the radio circuit, so in order to turn it off you'll have to forgo listening to music. It's also possible that the contract you sign with Hertz forbids removing a fuse for this purpose. IANAL but that would be shitty. To completely CYA, it might be better to remove the fuse, intentionally burn it out by shorting across the battery posts, then return the burned-out fuse to the panel. Then you could plausibly claim "hey the device just stopped working".
- aeykie 12y agoNo plans on how to use them vs Plans to not use them. Sneaky.
- dragonwriter 12y agoIf it really has no plans to use them and has spent money putting them in its cars, HTZ shareholders should be furious. But, I suspect "has no plans to use them" means "is not prepared to publicly disclose its plans for using them at this time". EDIT: Actually, the article indicates that they had very firm ideas of how they would be used (for two-way video streaming contact with agents from the device), but that they have "no plans" to use them based on the fact that they currently have insufficient infrastructure -- particularly, in terms of data bandwidth to the car -- to support the intended use.
- wahsd 12y agoWhen and why would anyone need to see the driver or the driver a CS rep? How does that help in any kind of scenario that is relevant to driving a rental vehicle? Seriously, can anyone come up with a legitimate and relevant use-case?
- fpgeek 12y agoTo take one example, the details of rental car controls can sometimes be unfamiliar. I've generally been comfortable pulling out the manual in those situations, but I'm sure some people would prefer a live walkthrough, if available.
- MichaelGG 12y agoSeeing the rep makes sense, but the rep doesn't need to see you. Unless you've broken off the car controls in your hand and want to show them. Otherwise it seems rather a massive net negative.
- dhimes 12y agoI was thinking along the lines of a five minute video clip available when you rent- kind of a training, if you will, like they have for personal watercraft. Optional, but available.
- fragmede 12y agoWhen you go rent a car from Hertz, they have video kiosks for the CS reps, so instead of dealing with someone in-person, you talk to a computer monitor with a webcam, and there's a live person on the other end video chatting with you. Given they already have that, adding it to their cars doesn't seem like that much of a stretch.
- evan_ 12y agoI assume the "NeverLost" device is just a rebadged commodity Android tablet that includes a camera.
- JoshTriplett 12y agoIf it's anything like the extremely terrible devices in their current vehicles, those are custom device similar to existing off-the-shelf GPSes. If they're in any way based on Android, they've gone well out of their way to completely replace the UI with something entirely unlike Android.
- tfe 12y agoThe new devices are actually much different than the clunky old ones you're referring too. I wouldn't be surprised if they were exactly a commodity Android tablet.
- qq66 12y agoIt looks like they've changed the hardware, but the Hertz Neverlosts that I used in 2005 and 2006 were vastly superior to a 2015 smartphone.
- logfromblammo 12y agoWhy would they say they have no plans, when it would be obvious even to a deafblind dead man that they are trying to roll their own OnStar, with video? If they can't handle the video bandwidth, there is little to prevent an initial audio-only rollout.
- msoad 12y agoCamera is easy. You put a tape on it's lens but what about the mic?
- iagooar 12y agoTake an earphone with some ductape and play an annoying song loud into the microphone.
- lessthanzero 12y agoThe point is to find it. The microphone could be everywhere.
- iagooar 12y agoWell, if the device is tablet-like it probably will be near the camera / screen.
- wahsd 12y agoI don't buy the argument about customer service. Why, and under what circumstances would it ever be necessary for a CS rep to see the driver? There is none that does not violate various principles that have nothing whatsoever to do with assisting a person renting and driving a vehicle.
- eric_h 12y agoIIRC, some hertz rental locations already have kiosks that support video chatting with CS reps. This would seem to be an extension of that same functionality.
- random3 12y agoThe presence of a mic and camera in a rental car can be debated. However, WRT to intention, it seems it was to provide a better service to customers through video communication. I'm thinking (given that it's default for Gold) that they were thinking of a Concierge service. Keep in mind that most people have a phone with mic, camera, accelerometer, etc. in their pockets most of the time...
- MichaelGG 12y agoHow does having a camera help deliver a better service? What real use cases are there for the rep needing to see from that viewpoint?
- malkia 12y agoBig Brother Hertz :)
- Shivetya 12y agofrom an insurance perspective even a still photo of who was behind the wheel at the time the vehicle is in motion is invaluable, from a customer perspective it comes down to the desire for privacy weighted against perceived benefits of allowing the camera to be activated without your control. so perhaps initially providing it as a service will eventually convince people that its existence is benign
- teej 12y agoWhat I suspect is that they will offer a "safe driver discount" to those who don't opt-out, effectively charging a fee for privacy.
- Raphmedia 12y agoThis is not an issue. You rent a car, a 50k+ product. You should expect there to be a GPS, Camera, Mic, etc. This is not your product that is filled with spy devices. You are renting one of their product and it's their right to make sure you are not mistreating it. That being said, if they were to sell those recording, yes it would be an issue. Edit: Yes, your landlord shouldn't be allowed to put microphones and cameras in your apartment. However, when you are renting a Hertz car, you are renting a piece of equipment for a short duration. This isn't a living space we are talking about. It's the short term rental of a piece of machinery.
- sologoub 12y agoBy your argument when one rents a $500k+ apartment, the landlord SHOULD be filling it with cameras and microphones. This is exactly why we have the "right to quiet enjoyment" and privacy when you rent a home. This car is covered by various insurances and there really is no reason for Hertz to try and spy on the customers.
- mholt 12y agoWell I hope my apartment that I'm renting doesn't also come with mics and cameras, even if there are "no plans to use them." Inspecting the product after I return it is almost certainly cheaper and easier than building out a massive, distributed monitoring infrastructure. I can't imagine their motives are exactly agreeable with privacy advocates.
- samtho 12y agoThe apartment argument is faulty. You're leasing the apartment for a long-term stay in addition to having laws requiring privacy in your own home. A landlord, for example, does not have the right to enter an occupied home without permission. A vehicle, by contrast, is equipment that is being rented. There is a greater chance of getting into a wreck with a vehicle than an apartment with the burden of insurance on the car rental company. A communication device such as this could be used for mal-intent, but does any company want a rep for spying on people? More than likely this is being used for safety and insurance in addition to a direct line to Hertz if you get into an accident or require roadside assistance. This is basically going to be OnStar taken to the 2010's of technology.
- adanatturack 12y agoTo me this does not seem like an issue to get worked up over. If they called it OnStar would it then be ok?
- Someone1234 12y agoOnStar has cameras in your car?
- hippich 12y agoNothing that chewing gum from corner store won't fix :)
- killertypo 12y agothe verbiage is crappy and vague, but I can see a use if you need support or help and they want to give you a personable experience. That said, this issue is two-fold...it is very easy to get riled up about security (especially as it seems we lose more and more freedoms each day to "securing" our nation). On the other hand, this offers them the ability to improve the customer experience. They just could not have picked a worse way to introduce the device, especially since they are not ready to publicly talk about its use-cases. A definite gray middle-area, but technically you do not own the car and it is their property. If you want to rent the car then they definitely can record its use to ensure that damages were not from a dog pissing on the seat vs. "i spilled some juice"
- windexh8er 12y agoI'm curious how having the capability to either take a picture of me or possibly have a video conference improves the end user experience? First of all - doing the latter would involve me being forced to stop a moving car to engage in such an interaction. I have a rental car because my intent is to drive somewhere, not interact with someone I do not know through means of video. "Personablity" does not play into this conversation at all unfortunately - unless a random Hertz employee complimenting me on my attire or hair style at a given moment is a contributing factor to my car rental experience. Regarding "it is very easy to get riled up about security". Yes, it is - as it very well should be. What happens if I hand a credit card over to a passenger and the "NeverLost" snaps an image of the digits? Highly unlikely but plausible - is Hertz going to guarantee PCI compliance of the footage? What if a group of individuals working for a defense contractor rent a car and are all discussing a secret, or top secret, program they are all cleared for? What are the implications of controlling that data? I fully understand there is a gray middle-ground - however people have an expectation of privacy in a vehicle today. There are just as many counter-point scenarios to the "dog pissing" one presented (which is rather weak in my opinion). That leads me to the question: do rental car companies have that much loss with which can be offset by having monitoring capabilities (video and audio)? There is considerable risk and infrastructure cost to implementing and protecting this "feature". I doubt that the amount of loss with regard to the vehicles themselves comes close to an all-encompassing monitoring system which could be based on the features that seem to be apparent in the latest version of "NeverLost". If the utility is for customer experience improvement - again, it's a large risk for Hertz to take on to provide minimal improvement in a rental experience and I doubt they've considered the edge cases that may put them in more fiscal predicament than not having it at all. If anything these devices should be opt-in, meaning they can be removed by any customer prior to taking the rental vehicle. Customers will make choices based on privacy, if that seems minimal it may be today. But overall awareness exists and is garnering more consideration over time.
- JustSomeNobody 12y agoSeems much ado about nothing. They had a use case, ordered the HW, decided not to use it. Several of the comments on the article are over the top idiotic. It's fun to read a couple, but after that it just gets ya sick.
- mc32 12y agoI don't see the use of an inward looking camera. I can see the use of an outward looking camera --as Russians can attest, this can prove useful in insurance claims against you. If you allow the camera, you get a ten, twenty percent discount, whatever. But inward looking, what would that assist with other than invasion of privacy?
- chiph 12y agoSo that Hertz can show that the driver abused the rental. Perhaps they smoked in the car, broke interior parts, had someone not on the contract behind the wheel, or other reasons. Live streaming isn't required for this - it takes a snapshot when the car is started, when g-forces indicate it's been in a crash, or even every 2 minutes "just in case". So yes, it's for insurance reasons -- theirs, not yours.
- prawn 12y agoOr drove a sedan off-road.
- neurotech1 12y agoI was told by a lawyer that its good practice to do a walk-around 'pre-flight' inspection with a rental car before driving off. If there is any damage, it should be reported immediately. In some states, the rental company is technically required to physically check the car with the driver, or minor damage can be disputed later. In practice this is only done for high-end luxury rentals. As for "abuse" - This can often be detected by the car computer from other sensors, no camera required.
- jadeddrag 12y agoCar2go records audio, which should be more disturbing, but most people don't seem to care.
- guyht 12y agoSource?
- robertfw 12y agoAlso would love a source on this. I have been using Car2go more recently.
- adrianpike 12y agoNot seeing anything in any of their privacy policies, trip agreements, or T&C's, and this is the first time I've heard that, got a source?
- edgan 12y agoI bet this will be used by the FBI in the short term. They secretly track cars. A camera in the car would make this even easier.
- marincounty 12y agoOr, the FBINSAGOV(I don't even like to use any buzz words casually) told them to install the cameras? Anyway, all this cheap technology is bitting us in the ass? O.K. the government can track you in a rental car--so will the Hackers? I used to think the only way of protesting was not using the particular product, but that's not happening. Homedepot takes my picture when I buy a bolt.(BTY--it's Internsl theft. Treat your employees better and everyone up to the store managers will stop stealing?) My only form of protection is filming them too. In this case, I'm just talking about cops. I use front and rear cameras on my vechicles. When walking I bring a smart phone and make sure I have the video app accessible.
- lvs 12y agoThis is an interesting one for state wiretap laws, especially if there's a hot mic. Is there an expectation of privacy in a rental vehicle? Tapping a vehicle you own would definitely violate most state wiretap statutes.
- scrrr 12y agoWell, this will go on until consumers react.
- smegel 12y agoI'm guessing this is probably corporate tone deafness rather than something sinister - it seems quite believable to upsell customers to a "gold" package that offers live video conferencing to Hertz staff to "book me a hotel and dinner" (at least believable that the corporate marketing department would think this is a good idea). As always, the danger will come from incompetently, corporately developed systems that are vulnerable to hackers who will be live streaming the inside of Hertz cars for lolz.
- chvid 12y agoHey - this is great. It must mean that the insurance Hertz is selling now gets much cheaper ... No?
- chvid 12y agoHey - this is great. It must mean that the insurance Hertz is selling now gets much cheaper ... No?
- yellowapple 12y agoThe picture of the device in question makes it look like it might be some COTS product; perhaps the vendor Hertz has been buying from all this time decided to throw in the camera and Hertz just decided "well fuck it, it's not like we're paying more for it, so we'll just leave it switched off"?
- 6t6t6 12y agoI think it would make sense that Hertz cars have cameras, but the memory card should be visible by the customer and he should be able to easily delete its contents.
- megablast 12y agoI have no problem with cars being tracked at all. Every car should be tracked. There are far too many accidents involving cars. Over 1.2 million people each year are killed in car accidents.
- sup14 12y agoWhat you're looking at is an LED and a reflector. The camera is right next to it behind the black glass rectangle. This black glass rectangle is a piece of liquid crystal glass and it stays opaque when the camera is not in use. It turns transparent only when they want to allow filming. And the rotating button on the top of the device mechanically controls the direction of the camera. Switch it to 'off' and the camera will not face the interior of the car. Also, the hackathon screenshots are just quick mock-ups. The developers didn't have access to a working prototype to make them. (Source : I was at this hackathon).