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I'm not sure if the author of this page understands what "race" means in D&D terms. It's basically species. Dwarves aren't just little people. They're literally

by guyzero 12y ago

I'm not sure if the author of this page understands what "race" means in D&D terms. It's basically species. Dwarves aren't just little people. They're literally not inter-fertile with humans. Now, fair enough, much of the "race" difference manifests itself as differences in cultural background - cultural norms, language, etc. But it's not the same way people use the term "race" in the real world.

thedz 12y ago
It is, and isn't. "Dwarf" is a different species than Humans, true, but D&D also use the "subrace" classificatin for things like Mountain Dwarves, etc. D&D is hardly the only or even first offender in this regard (it's a common and much talked issue in the larger Fantasy/RPG milieu).
- guyzero 12y ago
  Given the descriptions usually associated with subraces like the Drow or Mountain Dwarves I'm not sure if the racial stereotyping is a lot more offensive than the fact that the groups as portrayed have non-existent or stone-age economies. You know why Dwarves aren't portrayed as reading books? Because they're not portrayed as owning books or anything beyond pickaxes for that matter. Games and game worlds can and have been designed differently but this is how D&D is. There's definitely space for critical commentary, but complaining about it or calling it "evil" is like complaining about the physics in a "Transformers" movie. If you want an accurate simulation of reality, there's reality. Or GURPS.
TillE 12y ago
There's a lot of little things that D&D invented and have quietly become standard gaming tropes, and I think that slightly incorrect usage of "race" might be one of them. Other games have both "races" and cultures, which makes things a bit clearer.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > I think that slightly incorrect usage of "race" might be one of them. D&D "race" isn't exactly like "race" in the real world, but I don't think its an incorrect use of the term so much as deliberate, context-specific jargon because there is no existing readily recognized term that exactly captures D&D race (which isn't species -- though some D&D races are also distinct species from some or all of the other D&D races -- since there are D&D races which both can produce fertile offspring and do voluntarily produce offspring together) and "race" is the nearest readily recognized term. > Other games have both "races" and cultures, which makes things a bit clearer. D&D has both races and cultures (and in some settings in some versions of the rules, the latter also can have game mechanical effects), though only the former is somewhat "generic" across different game worlds, and the latter is gameworld specific.
chucksmash 12y ago
Even if on the surface the in-universe beings are from another species, that isn't necessarily a get out of jail free card. People can and will read between the lines. This happened in the context of sci-fi when The Phantom Menace came out. I remember reading criticisms of both the Gungans[1] and the Trade Federation aliens as weakly veiled racial stereotypes. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks#Allegations_of_racial_caricature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks#Allegations_of_ra...
- TillE 12y ago
  But the Phantom Menace stuff is terrible because it's very similar to real-world racial stereotypes. Except for the orc problem (ie, sentient beings we are free to kill), I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having fantasy races with very broad physical and social similarities. Humans are distinctly weird in a lot of ways if you step back and think about it.
Rodeoclash 12y ago
It's somewhat ambiguous though, has you can half-elves (human/elf). Actually, it also looks like you can half-dwarves (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Dwarf_%283.5e_Race%29 http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Dwarf_%283.5e_Race%29) too.
- guyzero 12y ago
  I reject 3.5e as non-canonical. Ha!
e12e 12y ago
Then again, both Orcs and Elves can breed with humans. Playing up the racial part of fantasy settings can be very a very interesting avenue for discussing racism, apartheid etc. The mis-understood neutral good half-orc, the result of a war crime rape, or an illicit love affair? In other settings, where for instance orcs might prefer the succulent taste of human flesh: is it acceptable if you only eat the flesh of warriors defeated in honourable battle? Etc, etc. It's just a game, but it can also be so much more than just a game...

by guyzero 12y ago

thedz 12y ago

It is, and isn't. "Dwarf" is a different species than Humans, true, but D&D also use the "subrace" classificatin for things like Mountain Dwarves, etc. D&D is hardly the only or even first offender in this regard (it's a common and much talked issue in the larger Fantasy/RPG milieu).

guyzero 12y ago
Given the descriptions usually associated with subraces like the Drow or Mountain Dwarves I'm not sure if the racial stereotyping is a lot more offensive than the fact that the groups as portrayed have non-existent or stone-age economies. You know why Dwarves aren't portrayed as reading books? Because they're not portrayed as owning books or anything beyond pickaxes for that matter. Games and game worlds can and have been designed differently but this is how D&D is. There's definitely space for critical commentary, but complaining about it or calling it "evil" is like complaining about the physics in a "Transformers" movie. If you want an accurate simulation of reality, there's reality. Or GURPS.

TillE 12y ago

There's a lot of little things that D&D invented and have quietly become standard gaming tropes, and I think that slightly incorrect usage of "race" might be one of them. Other games have both "races" and cultures, which makes things a bit clearer.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> I think that slightly incorrect usage of "race" might be one of them. D&D "race" isn't exactly like "race" in the real world, but I don't think its an incorrect use of the term so much as deliberate, context-specific jargon because there is no existing readily recognized term that exactly captures D&D race (which isn't species -- though some D&D races are also distinct species from some or all of the other D&D races -- since there are D&D races which both can produce fertile offspring and do voluntarily produce offspring together) and "race" is the nearest readily recognized term. > Other games have both "races" and cultures, which makes things a bit clearer. D&D has both races and cultures (and in some settings in some versions of the rules, the latter also can have game mechanical effects), though only the former is somewhat "generic" across different game worlds, and the latter is gameworld specific.

chucksmash 12y ago

Even if on the surface the in-universe beings are from another species, that isn't necessarily a get out of jail free card. People can and will read between the lines. This happened in the context of sci-fi when The Phantom Menace came out. I remember reading criticisms of both the Gungans[1] and the Trade Federation aliens as weakly veiled racial stereotypes. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks#Allegations_of_racial_caricature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks#Allegations_of_ra...

TillE 12y ago
But the Phantom Menace stuff is terrible because it's very similar to real-world racial stereotypes. Except for the orc problem (ie, sentient beings we are free to kill), I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having fantasy races with very broad physical and social similarities. Humans are distinctly weird in a lot of ways if you step back and think about it.

Rodeoclash 12y ago

It's somewhat ambiguous though, has you can half-elves (human/elf). Actually, it also looks like you can half-dwarves (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Dwarf_%283.5e_Race%29 http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Dwarf_%283.5e_Race%29) too.

guyzero 12y ago
I reject 3.5e as non-canonical. Ha!

e12e 12y ago

Then again, both Orcs and Elves can breed with humans. Playing up the racial part of fantasy settings can be very a very interesting avenue for discussing racism, apartheid etc. The mis-understood neutral good half-orc, the result of a war crime rape, or an illicit love affair? In other settings, where for instance orcs might prefer the succulent taste of human flesh: is it acceptable if you only eat the flesh of warriors defeated in honourable battle? Etc, etc. It's just a game, but it can also be so much more than just a game...