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We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
- dschobel 17y agoIt's fascinating to see how even a nation with a free media can still have total buy-in to an entirely delusional self-image. Scary stuff.
- noelchurchill 17y agoDo you mean the US or Norway? Also, I'll note this article is from 2005, so I'm not sure how much these figures have changes since then.
- dschobel 17y agoNorway in this case. I'm not sure what America's delusion would be. I've been living here too long to tell. In any event, I think America's dirty laundry has been thoroughly scrutinized at this point. Every time I return to Europe most people are all too happy to remind me what precisely is wrong with America (income disparity, minority incarceration rates, healthcare, etc etc).
- pedrocr 17y agoI agree that continuously pointing out those gets tiring fast (even though they are true). But then the US response tends to be "but on average we make more money". It's great that the US produces more (and can borrow more) and can buy more stuff, but that in itself does not guarantee quality of living. Diminishing returns on happiness of having more money kick in too soon for that to be a full argument.
- electromagnetic 17y agoIt's a testament to the differences between perception and reality. The NHS in the UK regularly gets poor ratings, in fact they're regularly flat out abysmal on national satisfaction scales, yet all out-patient questionnaire's regularly return with satisfaction rates >90%. People perceive the NHS as this behemoth incapable of performing, but the reality is that it performs amazingly well and provides one of the best health care in the world. Perceptions of America suffer a similar thing, it's always direly low in many countries. A very recent poll in Canada showed that they like Obama, and that a vast majority like Americans as individuals. Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before. Even I have recognized the cognitive dissonance of liking many Americans, liking the Presidency, I even like a vast amount of Americas culture, yet there's something ingrained in me that dislikes 'America'. Perhaps it's just the politics.
- chrischen 17y agoWhat you dislike are probably all the bad things that come out of America. The bad things tend to stick in the mind and define things. Probably doesn't help that America's so big and diverse; there's a lot there to hate.
- lupin_sansei 17y ago> one of the best health care in the world Are you serious? Check the poor cancer survival rates in UK compared to the rest of world: "Since that time, cancer survival rates in England have been steadily improving for but we (Department of Health spokesman) accept that there is further work to do to reduce the gap between us and the rest of northern and western Europe and America." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm
- bilbo0s 17y agoUh . . . Had to call this one. Full Disclosure: Cancer Researcher here. I looked into how to analyze data over time to elicit better outcomes in a former life. Cancer is a hard problem, REALLY hard. Hematological Cancers as well, super hard. It is less than wise to judge a health care system by its ability to treat cancer. Literally, there are often times when a patient is being attended solely for the purposes of learning as much as we can before she dies. Thus, hopefully, getting us into a better position to help the next person. Let's try to confine the discussion to areas where you get the most bang for the buck. Primary care for instance. Further disclosure: I am American. Limited experience with using UK health system. So 'good' or 'bad' are assessments it would be out of place for me to make. This is simply a post to add context to the discussion.
- lupin_sansei 17y agoI think it's fair enough to ask how come a country that claims to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world (the UK) has such bad cancer survival rates?
- berntb 17y agoIf Norway is as Sweden/Finland, the food prices can be seen as a result of monopolists/oligopolies, Microsoft-style. Since the population still mostly read local media, they aren't aware of reality. And it is possible for the food chains to avoid getting the population enlightened using large ad accounts in the media. This has become a bit better in Sweden over the last decade, but e.g. Finland is still almost as expensive [edit: almost as expensive as Norway]. A fun data point is when the only non-ad supported tv in Sweden found a big scandal about remarking minced meat, almost certainly based on whistleblowers. Those whistleblowers have certainly talked to other media -- and to the controlling government agency for years... without effect. (I've never heard the term "regulatory capture" in Swedish, it seems our political masters don't want us to know. 1/2 :-) So yes, it is the media -- and lobbyists.
- Ras_ 17y agoWe had a meat re-dating scandal in Finland too. I believe it was this summer. Omnipresent consensus-mentality unique to Scandinavia does sometimes prevent seeing the wood for the trees.
- sbt 17y agoI hope you're talking about the US.
- pedrocr 17y agoThe statistics are misleading and muddy: - Comparing adjusted disposable income between Scandinavia and the US is highly misleading. The disposable income in Scandinavia doesn't need to cover any healthcare, education and other public services. I wonder how much, if any, the difference is once you adjust for that. - The argument mistakes distribution of wealth with average output per capita. Portugal is in the bottom of the list in the GDP per capita comparison between US states and EU countries. In Portugal there is a somewhat high wage disparity which means that those with high wages can afford to pay those with low wages to get cheap pizza (the example given). The same disparity exists in the US and pizza is cheap too, even though the US GDP per capita is at the other extreme of the comparison. Scandinavian countries have low wage disparity so things are more expensive by comparison. It has nothing to do with the output of the economy. Basically it is trying to draw conclusions about the strength of the economies based on statistics that don't properly control for very relevant factors. The only good argument is the 2.2% vs 3% GDP growth rates. Considering the article is from 2005, recent events may throw some doubt into that picture. The latest estimates on Wikipedia were 2.6% in Norway and 1.1% in the US.
- chrischen 17y agoExactly. Watermelon cost like 50 cents in China, doesn't mean people are wealthier there. Although for some reason the iPhone costs several hundred dollars more... But I'm sure they'll come to their senses soon and lower it.
- wisty 17y agoDomestic goods are cheap, imports are expensive. Import taxes are lower in Hong Kong, but then service expensive.
- chrischen 17y agoDomestic goods are cheap because the labor is cheap, and because the cost of living is lower. iPhones are expensive because China Unicom is stupid. Plus, iPhones are made in China, so they're not imported. And the irony is that the imported phones, which originated from China too, actually cost less.
- tragiclos 17y agoThe Timbro study that makes up the bulk of the author's argument can be found at http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf. Most of the numbers are based on the US economy circa 1995-2000. Bonus points for equating the economic prosperity of Spain with the alcoholic content of their drinks.
- berntb 17y agoConsidering the high prices of alcohol in Sweden, it is quite effective for the local population to compare that metric.
- hop 17y agoThe Economist's Big Mac compares purchasing power pretty well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index
- wisty 17y agoHow will they calculate the Big Mac index for Iceland, now that McDonalds has left? http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/27/news/international/McDonalds_Iceland.cnnw/index.htm http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/27/news/international/McDonalds...
- hop 17y agoThat accurately reflects a currency collapse :)
- tianaco 17y agoThis confirms my brother's stories. He has a penchant for dating Scandinavian women--thusfar he's dated women from Denmark and Norway and has visited them and their families. Denmark was, of course, expensive by US standards. But upon returning from Norway, he remarked on the absurdly high cost of living. He made lasagna for his Norwegian girlfriend's family and it ended up costing around $60 US--just for the ingredients and a soft drink. Eating out at a burger-type joint ran nearly $100. It's not affordable unless you're absurdly wealthy.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- michael_dorfman 17y agoI'm an American living in Norway, and I can confirm half of what you write: the costs you describe are pretty accurate. However, you drop the ball when you write "It's not affordable unless you're absurdly wealthy." The fact is, the salary range in Norway is high, and quite compressed. Everyone can afford to make lasagna.
- zackattack 17y agoAre you KIDDING me? How is this possible? Can you please tell me exactly how much ingredients cost, and what a typical starting salary is for a college graduate in Norway? Not to say "I don't believe you", but I'm incredulous. This is shocking. P.S. Why are you an American living in Norway? How is it?
- michael_dorfman 17y agoMy wife is Norwegian. I've been here 12 years, and love it. In terms of salary: I've never heard of a college graduate making less than 250.000NOK = $43,000 USD, even in the most trivial, entry-level job. Note that that's for 32.5 hours/week, with 5 weeks paid vacation and full health care included. I don't have the lasagna ingredient prices available at home (most items don't have price tags, but shelf-tags at the store), but I can tell you that gasoline is over $7/gallon, if that's something to go by.
- thingie 17y agoI can get drunk for few euros (certainly less than 5), yet I don't feel rich (neither happy). By which I don't mean the article is completely wrong, just the presented metrics are quite strange.
- fnid 17y agoFirst of all, averages aren't that significant. What are the numbers on the median? Furthermore, what about debt? How much credit card debt do Americans have relative to Europeans? When I lived there, almost no one even had a credit card. They spent money they had. This is really a very bad picture of the situation. I spent a lot of time in a lot of places in Europe from Italy to the arctic circle and from spain to Poland and I found it to be a generally richer place over all. In fact, I was amazed at what I saw. I thought, "Wow, look at how amazing this place is. They have everything!" I find this article really hard to believe. Really, I couldn't care less about the numbers, I've been there and I've seen it and Europe is a richer place than America. It doesn't matter if we spend more on cars or not. They don't put value in those things like we do. Europe isn't about what you have or where you work, it's about who you are and enjoying life. I remember once asking someone in a group, "What do you do?" just curious. The response was, "You're so American." I didn't even realize how much status we put on people's jobs. It's how we define ourselves. What an eye opener.
- wheels 17y agoActually it's not just that averages are bad indicators -- the examples that he chose are obviously hand picked to make his case -- which to a knowledgeable reader destroys the credibility of the article in which he does most likely have a valid point. For example he picks a mixed drink as a buying power indicator, but Norway has an off the charts "sin tax" on alcohol, which has little to do with the buying power for, say, a burger. Perceptions of quality of life are always skewed by the attitude of the perceiver: you being on vacation, or the author being sick of Norway, for example. I think the real thesis of the article is that there's a gap between Norway's perception of its own wealth and actual buying power, which really hit home for me when I interviewed for a job there (and ended up moving to Germany instead). The more deeper seated cultural values, notably between how the wealth of a society is measured, are naturally harder to measure analytically. My theory (having grown up in the US and spent most of my adult life in Europe) is that the US is a society that is more "hero" driven -- and people that "make it" are more rewarded across the spectrum, whereas Europe tends to focus on a well-functioning welfare state. As a result, the American version of poverty is rare in most western european countries, but society is also less structured for empowering individuals. Both have their up and downsides.
- guelo 17y agoIn the US the average worker works 1,777 hours per year, in Norway it's 1,328. That's a lot of extra time for family, friends, hobbies, etc. They've made a choice about their work/life balance and we (or our capitalist masters) have made a choice about what is important to us. How much salary would you give up in exchange for 25% less time at work? Also, the Norwegian bottom 10% makes twice as much as the American bottom 10%. Again, it's a matter of choices, how much of your income would you give up to not have poor people in your community and the associated crime and social problems?
- lupin_sansei 17y agoCould you supply some sources to back up your claims, particularly about the crime and social problems in Norway vs the US, and also work hours.
- eric_t 17y agoThe police in Norway doesn't carry guns, that should give you an indication...
- mcd 17y agoThe police in Botswana also doesn't carry guns...
- AlisdairO 17y agoJust off the top of my head, 25 days off a year (not including public holidays) is the norm in Britain, compared to, what, 5-10 in the US? The attitude towards work is very different in Europe, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if working hours were lower.
- masklinn 17y ago> Just off the top of my head, 25 days off a year (not including public holidays) is the norm in Britain I think the EU mandates 4 or 5 weeks (not sure which), in the US as far as I know there is no federal mandates. Also, paid sick days.
- known 17y agorecent research suggests that Britain and particularly the United States have less social mobility than the Nordic countries and Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
- sbt 17y agoBruce Bawer reminds me of a religious zealot, having been confronted with facts forcing him to accept that the world is more nuanced than what the American post-war era he grew up in propounded. The reaction is predictable, but ensues nonetheless.
- Confusion 17y agoThese comparisons are obviously bogus. If Norway is worse than the US, why do they have a good public healthcare system and a much lower poverty rate? And don't get me started on that slur about 'drug users crowding the streets'. Please, check your facts. About 'frugal living' and 'underpaid teachers': perhaps we feel rich, precisely because we are satisfied with our ten year old toaster and our home-made lunch. Partly because we don't feel the need to consume-consume-consume, as the US has brainwashed its citizens to do. Partly because of simple cultural differences: Norwegians like to bring their own lunch; Spaniards like to go to a neighbouring lunchroom. The relative cost of said lunchroom has nothing to do with it. Also nice to see this together with http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=918590 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=918590 . Anyone wonder why no European state has these kinds of problems?
- coffeemug 17y agoWe don't feel the need to consume-consume-consume, and we certainly aren't brainwashed. This is really uncalled for - we do like a certain standard of living, but it doesn't mean we're brainwashed consumption machines born to satisfy an economic purpose as laid out by the federal reserve. Yes, most of my friends have playstations, flat screen TVs, and leased cars. Some of this stuff is financed by debt. But they do lead a pretty good life and they're not crippled by debt or three backbreaking jobs. We love to play, and we work hard to do it. It's a different mindset - there is no reason to be insulting.
- masklinn 17y ago> This is really uncalled for - we do like a certain standard of living, but it doesn't mean we're brainwashed consumption machines […] > > Yes, most of my friends have playstations, flat screen TVs, and leased cars. See? That's how brainwashing works: you don't realize it. That's the point.
- scotch_drinker 17y agoAnd it's just as easy to say that Europeans have been brainwashed to say things like all Americans are brainwashed to consume, consume, consume. It's a highly condescending argument on several levels to make sweeping statements like that about people who have different motivations for doing what they do. We might as well all be brainwashed, there's no proving we're not if that's your argument. The original poster in this thread was being insulting and condescending. There's no other way to look at it, whether he meant to or not.
- mortenoffline 17y agoThe statistics are misleading, but the problems they point out are inherent in the political system of Norway. The distribution of wealth using taxes (income, land and VAT) for all political parties is more or less the same. T here are few really rich people and few poor people. The real difference to the US as I see it is the purchase power of the middle class and upper middle class. In Norway, oil and the middle class is paying the bill for the expansive and expensive state. 5 years of uni education only gets you a 25%-40% extra pay when you start out (compared to uneducated work), but makes it possible to double it over time.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- anateus 17y agoThe article, as many of its ilk, presupposes that certain things are "good" and others are "bad". Purchasing power is used, rather than GDP as some other commenters have assumed, but it only tells you what is possible to purchase rather than how closely what is possible matches what is desired by that population! Interacting with Scandinavians I've found that the concept known variously as hyggelig , gemytligt, hyggw, koselig, gemuetlichkeit (in various northern European languages) is very central to their cultural identities. It represents a sort of... "social coziness", a comfortable harmony, and this is what is sought. To me this stands in contrast to states of mind that would make an American happy. Don't take my comment as saying that this cultural concept somehow renders Scandinavians superior. I find that my own preferences tend towards having the greatest purchasing power, but without delving into the murky depths of cultural relativism it's important to understand that the subjective evaluation of objective economic parameters can vary wildly.
- silentbicycle 17y agoWhile I don't know about the rest of Scandinavia, Sweden also has a prominent cultural idea of "lagom" - that enough is better than too much or too little. "Enough is as good as a feast."
- abrahamsen 17y agoAt the low point (2000) the EUR was 0.8 USD. At the high point (2008) it was 1.6 USD. The (old) EU and the US are close enough economically for a factor two to decide the outcome of most comparisons. Also, when people say Norway is rich, it is not just because it has the second highest GDP of the world. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Economy). It is also because they have saved a good part of the oil money (more than USD 100.000 per capita, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_...) preparing for the combination of an aging population and finite North Sea oil resources). So they are rich also in the literal sense of having a lot of money, not just spending a lot of money.
- daniel-cussen 17y agoIn the US, putting more people in prison both makes the GDP go up and reduces the number of homeless. Nothing is distorted as GDP statistics or its GDP per capita derivative.
- galactus 17y ago"Yes, yest... they have great education and great healthcare for everybody BUT ..BUT.. they have to use old furniture and prepare their own meals!!!!!! THE US IS STILL THE BEST"