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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

• smt88 12y ago
  I didn't understand what this was about, based on the title. As it turned out, it's an incredibly interesting, important, and sad essay on the severe consequences that exist for women who fight for their own physical/emotional safety (and the safety of others). If you want to know how people can repeatedly rape coworkers and get away with it, you should read this article.
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  • tracker1 12y ago
    I think it all sucks... on the one hand, being falsly accused of something because someone made a bad decision in a moment, or exaggerated is pretty bad. * Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision) * A person asks another person they work with out. (this isn't harassment, though once a firm no is given they should not ask again) The problem with the first, is it does happen, for any number of reasons... the second less so, but often women will give a soft decline instead of just saying they aren't interested. On the flip side, continual harassment, rape, sexism and just general asshole behavior does exist, and should rightly be called out. The trouble is, without repeated offenses, it's almost impossible to know the difference as an outsider.
    • cstrahan 12y ago
      > * Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision) Did I miss somewhere in the post where the regret of a (mutually) drunken one-night-stand was equated with rape? Or are you bringing this up because you believe such occurrences happen often? If it's the latter, would you mind sharing sources? I've heard people suggest that these things happen (where the "victim" was either embarrassed of sleeping with the person, or perhaps was ashamed due to their morals), but I have never seen a man or women ever claim that they were raped when it was in reality just "a bad decision" ... which makes me wonder if the mentioning of the scenario you give is just a common device for distracting from the topic of rape.
      • tracker1 12y ago
        As someone who WAS falsely accused of rape (in my early 20's), I'm pretty sensitive to the issue... and yes, it does happen often enough.
• hrktb 12y ago
  The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand. Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arresting a co-worker wouldn't be whistleblowing, just basic law inforcement.
  • bluehat 12y ago
    I defined rape as the kind with the (bad) screaming and the blood, or tried to. I am aware that some people steal because they are starving but most theft I have seen was somebody who wanted to prove that they could do it. In the same way, I know some people rape in other complicated situations, but the rape I have seen in my life was individuals who just wanted to prove that they could do whatever they wanted, and nobody was going to stop them. My reading does not suggest that all rape produces irrefutable physical evidence, nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety. If you have evidence to the contrary, I can't tell you how excited I'd be to hear it.
    • hrktb 12y ago
      > * nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety* Has there ever been any evidence that charging a person of power of any crime comes with protection from collateral professional/personal consequences ? In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise my professional or personal comfort over getting justice. I am also considering that if some place would refuse me a job because I got someone charged for a criminal offence, perhaps that's not a place I'd like to work for in the first place. I understand that can feel idealistic, and some situations can be a lot more complex than that, especially when a whole industry is mainly filled with assholes in power positions. But I'd believe that making things clear (have a judge validate a claim for instance) can help to get away from overly abusive environments and alleviate the "he/she's just making stuff up" bullshit thrown around the victims.
• bluehat 12y ago
  I'm really sad this got downvoted off the front page (this article is only one hour old with 9 points, things 3 hours old with 9 points are still on the page). It's cool if not everybody is interested in talking about this, but I feel like the entire point of this article was that making whistle-blowers harder to hear is not good for society.
  • grey-area 12y ago
    Good to see people speaking up with their experiences on this topic, however painful it is - whistleblower is definitely the right word for coming forward about sexual harassment and rape in the workplace. Re the story dropping down below other stories - it might not be flagging, it seems there are many complex rules all interacting to rank stories so it's hard to know what causes story placement here but it's probably mechanical rather than deliberate. Seems to be moving up again now.
  • wglb 12y ago
    I found it on the front page.
  • dang 12y ago
    It didn't get downvoted; medium.com is in a class of websites that get mildly penalized by default pending moderator review. Not a great solution, but the alternative is reams of blogspam and fluff making the front page just because so much of it gets posted. We remove the penalty from solid articles (and typically reset the clock on them to restore a fair time window for upvotes), but it sometimes takes a while before that happens. In the long run we intend to have the community do most of this, but finding and implementing the right mechanisms for that is a lengthy process.
    • bluehat 12y ago
      I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear that. Thanks for telling me!
    • ramchip 12y ago
      I appreciate how moderators sometime join in comment threads to explain their approach. HN moderation used to feel like a black box but I find the interaction with the community much better nowadays. Thanks!
• rds2000 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviancy_amplification_spiral http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviancy_amplification_spiral You can't simply cry abuse and magically learn data structures and algorithms. You can't tweet or sue (well, suing require hard evidence) your way to gainful employment as an engineer. You also don't need social support to study programming, it's a hobby you can master regardless of what you look like. How did you manage Thomas Sowell said (pertaining to an article on using the nuke in Japan, but he uses it to test liberal media-hype later): Much of the self-righteous nonsense that abounds on so many subjects cannot stand up to three questions: 1. Compared to what? 2. At what cost? and 3. What are the hard facts?
• littletimmy 12y ago
  She was raped several times over several months? What on earth? Why isn't this being reported to the police? There is a whole department of law enforcement (funded by our money) that deals precisely with issues of violence. Just use it instead of blogging about your troubles.
  • tomlock 12y ago
    There are many many reasons why women don't report rapes to the police.
    • littletimmy 12y ago
      Look. That's fine. But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. The alternative is what many feminists seem to be doing these days, which is "I wish men were nicer..." That is borderline stupid. The world will never be a perfectly safe place. You have to report crimes, and hold people accountable, and use the mechanism for corrective justice.
      • tomlock 12y ago
        The solution system that you've recognized is also recognized by many, many women. Are you suggesting that the woman writing this piece was not aware of that system?
      • jackweirdy 12y ago
        > But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. Disagree: That’s exactly what whistleblowing is.
        • rqvgjcfm 12y ago
          Whistleblowing is providing concrete facts that would hold up to scrutiny, outside the system that they should be reported.
• danso 12y ago
  I don't know what it's like to be raped or sexually harassed, but I am frequently amused at how skeptics think it's so cut-and-dry to just report the issue. This came up in Kelly Ellis's public revelation yesterday that she had been sexually harassed at Google. The Twitter thread starts here: https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497 The following is Ellis's statement, and then one of her more earnest "Oh really?" critics: Ellis: Rod Chavez is an engineering director at Google, he sexually harassed me, Google did nothing about it. Reprimanded me instead of him Twitter user: That's a very serious allegation. Hope you have evidence to back it up. Ellis: Lol already dudes going, "where's the proof?" Do you expect women to wear wires whenever they're sexually harassed? Trust women. Twitter user: there is a difference between questioning and accusations. I'm not calling her liar. Just requesting evidence...In general, to have been a victim of a crime, and not seeing the offender be punished must be awful. But there is a reason...we have the right to a fair trial. We all know the consequences of letting random people on the Internet serve justice. Again, I've never been raped. But the last time I made a criminal complaint, it was when I was robbed of my phone at gunpoint a few years ago in New York. Granted, I acted quite foolishly...not having my phone, and not having used a payphone in years...My first instinct was to continue heading home, which was about 6 to 7 blocks away, so that I could lookup the nearest police station and walk over there...not realizing I could dial 911 anywhere, or at least go into the nearest storefront. So that bizarre behavior led to me getting quite the grilling from the first detective to respond, who outright accused me of making up the story because I didn't want to admit that I had a rough night with a hooker who robbed me of my belongings (apparently it's weird for a man to walk alone through Greeenwich Village at night)? Anyway, long story short, no big deal. I knew I had plenty of evidence that this happened to me, including having tracking software on my (Android) phone...and while that was my first time being a victim of a violent crime, I've had enough experience with cops (being a former cops reporter) to understand where the skepticism was coming from, and also, to know that it was pretty tame compared to what other victims get. That said, if that was the treatment that I got, for an extremely cut-and-dry kind of crime (not too many debates over what constitutes armed robbery)...can you imagine the process that a rape victim has to go through? Or in the case of Ellis, someone who experienced non-criminal sexual harassment? Reporting a crime or a violation isn't as simple as hitting a button, it always consists of a non-trivial process (for me, besides the 4 hours of waiting for and then talking to the detective on the night of the incident, I missed a couple days of work to go to the station, fill out paperwork, do more interviews, etc). To use the parlance of today's times, there's considerable "friction" in reporting an incident, regardless of the complexity of the issue. Whatever your stance on "is sexual harassment a prevalent problem or not?", at least recognize that the reporting of such a problem is easier to think about than to actually do. edit: To elaborate a little more...in my situation, the choice to report a crime was pretty obvious: I want my phone back, and also, the robber is obviously in the wrong. Quite frankly, I don't think I would've gone to the cops had it been a midnight phone-snatching (it's New York after all)...but since the robber escalated it by introducing a weapon, can't really just ignore the incident. From my understanding, a rape or harassment victim does not have even remotely such an easy decision. Besides the emotional trauma, there's a huge amount of plain confusion -- rape/harassment is almost always perpetrated by someone who knows the victim, and sometimes someone the victim considered to be a friend. If a friend randomly punches me and takes my phone, after the "WTF was that about?" that I'd go through...I'm not even sure I could just go straight to the cops...Maybe my friend was drunk? Or pulling an elaborate prank? I'd at least want to call him (or email him, since he has my phone). And I guarantee that unless the punch caused serious injury to me, the cops are going to say, "WTF is wrong with you and your friend?", not immediately put out an all-points-bulletin to arrest my friend. And even if he's clearly in the wrong, think about all awkwardness in your social network that comes when the cops do arrive and arrest your friend...and we're not even at the indictment phase yet. So again, just making assumptions, but when the crime is as controversial and "he said/she said" as rape or harassment...the decision to make a report does not at all seem like an easy one.
• mrbig4545 12y ago
  I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop
  • elmin 12y ago
    I'm in America, and I've certainly never had a conversation where this level of sexism was mentioned. The worst I've heard is a creepy coworker who likes to give back rubs. For all the reasons in the article, I think it's something which is not discussed as much as it should be. All I can say, is anyone who does this stuff should not be employed anywhere.
    • emj 12y ago
      I've heard a girl talk about her rape in a friendly environment where we were all good friends, it became awkward and impossible to go on. If I was in her shoes I would never bring it up again, so the chances of hearing stuff like these is slim.
    • bluehat 12y ago
      Yeah I don't generally talk about this because it brings conversations to a screaming halt, and you have to spend all your time comforting whoever you just told.
  • chroma 12y ago
    The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute. In fact, the most sexist behavior I've encountered in the workplace was a manager who had a propensity to interrupt women more often than men. I mentioned this to him in private. Apparently, it was an unconscious bias. Afterwards, he made an effort to correct for it. Outside of the workplace (parties, bars, public transportation), I've encountered much worse: people getting cornered, felt-up, etc. But that's always involved strangers or acquaintances, not coworkers. And it should go without saying, but I really feel for the author. :(
• abalone 12y ago
  I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a focal point for specific change. For example, how do colleagues end up even physically alone in the same space together especially after the first RAPE? Does this stem from unsupervised after-work parties that employees feel obligated to attend? Is it related to conferences or work travel? Clearly she would seek to avoid being near her rapist alone but couldn't. Are there things companies can be doing to better avoid such scenarios?
  • rayiner 12y ago
    Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss. 3) Why let it happen more than once? If you've ruled out calling the police, what are you going to do? Can you afford to quit your job on the spot? Can you compromise your long term future at the firm by bringing it to the management? You've worked years to get to where you are, and you just want to do your job and try to get ahead, just like your coworkers who didn't catch the eye of some creep.
    • learc83 12y ago
      > Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss. Would the police do anything about the scenario you outlined above? Wouldn't sexual harassment where the boss trades sexual favors for promotions/job security be considered a civil matter in most places?
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• deleted 12y ago
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• mattmaroon 12y ago
  I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or accepted in tech than anywhere else. It's certainly not systematized or condoned. I can't believe Google (for whom she has worked) has any more lenient of a policy on sexual harassment or assault than any other Fortune 500. And if it were this bad, why would she fear being ostracized? If my options were to stay in an industry and be repeatedly harassed, beaten, and raped, or switch careers, I don't think it'd be a tough call.
  • stepjump 12y ago
    > unless maybe it turned out to be false I'm assuming most of the people who have been sexually assaulted have no proof of the incident. So while it wouldn't necessarily "turn out to be false," there's a definite risk of people thinking that she was making the whole incident up for attention/out of spite/to get the other guy fired, etc. I think that's where the author's fear is coming from.
  • bluehat 12y ago
    I don't know that it is more common in tech because I have only worked in tech. Does that make it OK in tech if it happens everywhere else too? Would that make you want to fix it any less if you knew it was wrong that it happened everywhere?
  • geofft 12y ago
    I don't think there's a particular reason to believe this is significantly worse in tech than it is elsewhere (although if this I'm wrong, I'd definitely appreciate being corrected on this). But there are a few things I'd say: - Tech has this particular weird cultural self-view that we all see ourselves and each other as middle-school nerds emerging victorious, as people who got past the bullies and the ills of "normal people" society, as people who were friendless (and dateless) in school but have found our own little environment now where we can be accepted as we are. So there's a tendency to think that we're not capable of the same sort of awfulness, and that we're better people than the other industries. There's a tendency, subconsciously, to think that if someone's saying something bad about any of our people, they're no better than our middle school bullies. We need to get over that and admit that the tech industry is like any other industry. - On a different and simpler note, tech is our industry. I don't have nearly as much say about the culture of, say, big law firms or furniture design studios, than I do about the culture of companies where I work and where I might consider working. Regarding Google, did you see this discussion, which was on the HN home page yesterday? https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25 https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25
• lettergram 12y ago
  I don't want to openly doubt rape, but jesus, several times over several months? Call the police, or at least avoid a situation if possible. Clearly she is willing to talk about it, so where's the police report? Also, every time I read one of these articles I cringe. There's a big movement to "include women in tech", but it's interesting to note that (in my experience) there is a large group (bordering on majority) of women in tech that are just as disgusted by these articles. My girlfriend finds it particularly offensive, her comments usually being something along the lines of: "If women want to be treated as equals, they should act like equals, not complain." Point being, she finds these articles counter productive, and most of the women whinny. She thinks a lot of the people in tech can be weird, and this can lead to people believing it there sexism, when in actuality it is just awkward behavior. Finally, and my personal opinion, no one supports rape, sexual harassment or racism, and any subconscious bias is pretty hard to discern. It would be better to involve the authorities if you feel you are being rapped or harassed. From my personal point of view I have seen SO many women complain about being harassed or put down, and the fact is they may have, but I have never seen it. I work regularly with women in my jobs and I've never seen or had a problem. Some are bad team members and some are good. They are usually treated by skill level from my experience, and I have seen this taken as sexism more than once. Other places are different (apparently) and if that's the case, punish the crap out of the people who harass women/race. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, stop putting me in a group with these people. I'm calling bullshit on not just this article, but half these articles. There is definitely less women in tech, and nothing is inherently wrong with that. If there's something I can do to make it more inclusive, I will. However, please OP and anyone reading this, come at it with an open mind. Just because women aren't in tech does not imply something is wrong. Women and men are different, it's okay as long as it is not a sexist barrier. Just not having a lot of women does not mean there is that barrier. Every situation is different, and you may have indeed been wronged (and I can sympathize), but stop generalizing. It's borderline sexism to claim "everyone in tech is sexist against women," we all know males have to watch themselves and be careful. That's probably why the OP was offered money, people are so scared of being called sexist, because it's so blown out of proportion. Handle it like everything else, with a clear mind. If we are going to talk about sexism, give me the facts, give me the barrier, and give me a way I can fix it besides just being "subconsciously and uncontrollably bias." If that can't be done, then there probably isn't justification to discuss the concerns (yet).
• meric 12y ago
  I feel they could have done it without making my boss feel like he was being directly threatened with a huge HR complaint. It’s a real shame for our tech culture that there is no way to get somebody tutored about what is and isn’t appropriate without also landing them in deep trouble. I'd like to add the only education available to teach people social interactions, outside of being self-taught, is PUA material, as well as in-house education on how to influence masses in the intelligence community. Which means if you weren't in a situation to talk to enough people while you were growing up, later on in life you'll miss out on jobs, you'll feel insecure, you'll make inappropriate comments, you'll have difficulty making friends, you'll have difficulty seducing a potential mate, you'll get divorced later on due to inability to manage arguments and fights and conflicts. Families have been getting smaller - first people stopped living with close to their relatives, then people stopped living with their parents and siblings, and now people begin to stop living with their husbands or wives, and children without at least one of their parents, and parents having fewer siblings in general. People are receiving less practical experience in interacting socially as they are growing up. You either fit in at school and do well, or you don't and isolate yourself and fall behind. We have a mess at university campuses. We have a mess in tech companies. We have growing numbers of men who are 'losers'. We have growing numbers of women who can't get married if they want to. We have growing instances of inappropriate behaviour at work. Men and women resorting to electronic means to communicate, and avoiding face-to-face interaction, even among friends. Parents sent to nursing homes, pension spending growing and unsustainable. People growing up with little to no spiritual values besides materialism. etc, etc. I think all of these stem from smaller families, causing less exposure to social interaction with others of the same age as well as with the older generation, resulting in less wisdom passed down, and decreased social ability of people growing up. And it's only going to continue to get worse. Though maybe people getting poor and being forced to stay with their parents for long might just be where the second derivative is beginning to turn.
  • frandroid 12y ago
    Because there was less rape when there were larger family. Right...
    • 12y ago
• aaron695 12y ago
  You run the risk when trying to say two issues, which many people consider separate, are related that you will just battle harden the opposing side. This is not a healthy article for discussion on either issue.
• deleted 12y ago
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  • bluehat 12y ago
    Would that make it OK here? If it happened any less anywhere else? Would that make you want to fight against a thing that was wrong any less? I feel like we all joined this community because we thought we could change stuff.
    • AnkhMorporkian 12y ago
      If it happens at an equal rate, then that means perhaps we shouldn't be focusing on tech companies specifically but in the legal framework that allows this to slip through the cracks. Morality can be on our side all we like, but companies of any decent size are way more interested in the law than morality.
      • jrochkind1 12y ago
        One of the things I found most useful and insightful in the OP is a focus on things we can do to change our organizational and personal behaviors to actually keep people safe and treated with dignity, as opposed to just avoiding legal liability, since that has not succeeded in making people safe and treated with dignity. A "focus on the legal frameworks" is not the only avenue for action, and may not be the most effective -- whether in the tech industry or elsewhere. We're talking about the tech industry because it's HN and we're all in the talk industry, that's the one we know. If we started the conversation with the tech industry -- which we know best -- but used what we learned to expand to look at other industries and environments too, talking to people in them too, that sounds like it could be useful. Instead, somehow here we are bizarrely motivated to expand the focus from the tech industry to 'everywhere' as a means to avoid talking about it at all?
        • AnkhMorporkian 12y ago
          I'm not trying to discourage discussion, but I think history has proven that even strong sexual harassment policies do little by themselves. Some people will harass regardless of the consequences, and companies will do what they can to avoid lawsuits and making waves. Changing behaviors is great, but the best time to do that isn't anywhere near the workplace, it's during the formative years. People don't suddenly start working at Google and decide to sexually harass. While we can work on our own to try to improve the tech sector, I firmly believe that a more effective solution (for both the tech sector and the country at large) is to address it via legal means and education.
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• empressplay 12y ago
  I've heard men in the tech space who I would normally have considered very nice people say extremely sexist / homophobic / transphobic things. When I've called them out on it, they've been surprised that anyone was offended. As I've said, otherwise really nice guys, but they seem to have just thought such comments were acceptable in the context of the 'community'. Strange stuff.
  • randyrand 12y ago
    "they've been surprised that anyone was offended" What did they say?
    • empressplay 12y ago
      Yes, and their apologists often sound like you. True fact: "We always say shit like this, it doesn't mean anything" is not justification for acting like an ass.
      • randyrand 12y ago
        I agree. That is not justification at all. I just think if you call people misogynist/homophobic/etc you shouldn't be hesitant to provide a concrete example of them acting that way.
        • hudibras 12y ago
          Also, would you mind showing me evidence of any negative thing any sea lion has ever done to you?
  • Mandatum 12y ago
    Have also seen casual sexism and racism used. I assume these people aren't racist or sexist to the point it would affect anything they do professionally, however it does detract from my view of them. On the other hand I swear like a sailor, although I try to pull back from it in public - I occasionally slip. Especially when I'm dropping the C bomb (usually targeted at an inanimate object). Is it unprofessional? Yes. Should I be judged? Fuck yes. Do I care? Yep.
• datashovel 12y ago
  "I have been raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months." As much as I want to read this as hyperbole it doesn't look like that's the case. I guess it may be because I consider myself a level-headed person, and have (to the best of my knowledge) never even interacted with someone that vicious. A person like that doesn't deserve just to be reprimanded. They should be in jail.
• brandonmenc 12y ago
  > he frequently came out with scary-harsh messages that had little relation to reality, like being worried about who he asked to help carry heavy equipment That's "scary-harsh?" Fact: women are not as strong as men. It's not even a question. Go look at weightlifting records, if you don't believe that. Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps with just a moderate amount of training. Disclaimer: I believe everything else cited in the article is absolutely horrible, but this particular thing is not.
  • Thriptic 12y ago
    > Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps with just a moderate amount of training. That's not a true statement. A quick look at the IPF female world records shows an unequipped lifter putting up a 230 kg squat at 107 kg body weight. That would be considered almost an elite lift for a male of the same weight class, which requires far more than "moderate" training. Regardless, the main point of your post holds true.
    • donw 12y ago
      Massively offtopic, but powerlifting records (http://www.usapowerlifting.com/records/national-championship-records/ http://www.usapowerlifting.com/records/national-championship...) support that yes, elite female powerlifters top out at what would be considered a rep weight for a male lifter in the same weight class.
      • Thriptic 12y ago
        I'm not arguing that males aren't stronger than females in the same weight class. I'm saying an untrained male can't receive moderate training and suddenly massively out lift elite female powerlifers in the same weight class.
        • donw 12y ago
          Oh, certainly. To address the original post, though, the numbers that the top-tier gals are putting up are in the same league as male lifters with 2-3 years of training, which sounds fairly moderate to me.
• yason 12y ago
  I cannot fathom how it is possible to get raped by a co-worker several times. This is obviously a sore point socially so I'll emphasize here that that's what I assume has happened because she wrote so. I'm just curious about how that could, in reality, happen? I can think of a few cases where rape could plausibly happen in a work setting but I can't see how they could continue: 1) violent rape using physical force: there will be fighting back, injuries, scars, and blood from the assault, and the victim goes to file a report to the police, and gets to a doctor to be examined and her (his?) intimate cavities analyzed for the rapist DNA. These facts can be verified quite easily if the rapist is known. 2) a dinner, for example, at a work trip together with the co-worker went one step too far: depending on what actually happened this could translate back to 1) or fall in the grey area in which case the bare minimum that can be done is to not spend time with said co-worker alone again in non-public places. A majority of rapes fall into domestic relationships, dating gone wrong, passing out in wrong company after too much alcohol, or other circumstances projected on an established or a potential sexual relationship, and these might traditionally be the cases where women generally don't report them as rapes for one reason or another. Maybe she is loyal to her abusing husband. Or maybe she thinks she gave wrong signals at the end of the date. But work relations do not by default imply sexual relations: there's no pretense that could escalate in a horribly wrong way. This sounds stupid but, for example, you can't go to too many meetings and let someone interpret that as a "yes". So I'm just wondering that barring 1), the violent assault, how does this happen?
• peteretep 12y ago
  I didn't read the whole article on my first read, and missed the most important parts, which are "What can I do?". So I'm going to throw HN etiquette to the wind, and just quote it verbatim. > What needs to change is three-fold. > > The first thing needed is pretty simple: In all organizations, demand that there > exists a code of conduct and clear methodto report misconduct. Imagine right > now that you have just witnessed something inappropriate in your workplace, at > a conference or in a community. Do you have a place you could report it? Do you > trust that it would be handled properly, or would they just try to avoid > liability? Do you believe you would personally suffer for making such a report? > If you’re not comfortable with any of those answers, you have work to do. > Reconsider what systems have been created, and fight for ones that treat this > like a whistleblowing issue, not something to be “kept under control.” > > Second, while there will always be truly malicious people, most people are just > don’t realize the harm of their action. There needs to be correction without > punishment for people who are not malicious. With such a mechanism in place, > people who see sexism in action can help fix it. At the same time, it allows > those who are doing things wrong to learn in a safe environment. For more about > this approach, check out some of the great articles about call-in culture. The > goal is simple here: help your well-intentioned friends figure out they are > hurting people without making it seem like a threat or shaming. It’s easiest for > you if you aren’t the one being wronged. This step is important because > whistleblowers need allies, and we need people to not be afraid of announcing > they are allies. This means two things: One, that we be welcoming and patient > with those striving to be better, and two, that our allies (and those of us > trying to lead the charge) be committed to self-improvement whenever the > opportunity presents. > > Third, and most important, is making a serious personal commitment to solving > this. You’re tired of hearing about this “women in tech” stuff, and we’re tired > of living it, but there are some big issues here, and we’re not going to solve > them by pretending they don’t exist because we’re bored or afraid of them. We > need serious discussions, and we have to have educated opinions about what’s > wrong and how to fix it. We need to mull these ideas around until we come to > some combination of hard data and cultural consensus before we can get > meaningful change. > > Making a personal commitment means forming an opinion on more than just the > broad concepts. It also requires learning about specific instances of > harassment. Spend enough time reading material from both sides to develop a > well-informed opinion, or be honest about not knowing enough. Don’t defend an > opinion that isn’t well thought through. Then, use that opinion to make sure > whistleblowing is taken seriously. When we fail to engage whistleblowing in our > own lives or in institutions we deal with, we’re hanging the whistleblowers out > to dry. At best, we allow them to be marked as “liabilities”; at worst, we leave > them to suffer from enemies we don’t care to protect them against. > > For clarity, I’m going to now state my three specific requests: > > 1. Make sure the systems to handle malicious abuses of power against women have > teeth, and that they seek to let the disenfranchised blow the whistle, rather > than simply “keeping stuff under control.” > > 2. Help your well-intentioned peers who are still making mistakes do better > without threatening them or humiliating them. > > 3. Make a public commitment to taking potential whistleblowers seriously. Commit > to educating yourself, to having an opinion, and, if you believe the > whistleblower’s claims might have merit, to helping. Live up to that commitment. >
• kendallpark 12y ago
  Every time an article like this gets posted, ignorant commenters pretty much prove the thesis of the article. So far I have learned from HN commenters: - a hetero male would never give a BJ to a superior male no matter what therefore it is hard to understand why a woman would feel coerced into do so. - It is not possible/credible for a woman to be raped multiple times by a coworker. - It is the clearly the woman's fault for being raped multiple times because she should've reported it the first time and/or known how to avoid her rapist in the future - Women calling out sexual harassers in tech will hurt the cause of getting more women in tech, therefore they should stop - "You can't simply cry abuse and magically learn data structures and algorithms. You can't tweet or sue (well, suing require hard evidence) your way to gainful employment as an engineer. You also don't need social support to study programming, it's a hobby you can master regardless of what you look like. How did you manage" Disappointing.
  • imaginenore 12y ago
    Writing whiny articles is counterproductive. A rapist is not going to read it and think - "Uh oh, turns our rape is bad, I should stop". If there's some abuse/assault/rape, you deal with it like in any other field - you call the police, and then you press charges, and then you sue. It's the only thing that really stops the abusers/rapists.
    • bluehat 12y ago
      Your argument is that writing an article doesn't stop rape. I find it true that writing an article won't fix my rape seeing as writing an article is not magic a time machine. However, I find it hard to believe that writing an article would not help reduce rape. Writing this article helps people understand rape is common and hopefully make people be more likely to believe the next person who comes forward and is ready to press charges. How is writing an article counterproductive though? What am I hurting?
      • imaginenore 12y ago
        Rape is actually not common at all. 26-27 per 100,000 population. So one in 3700 - 3840 people get raped. 91% of them are women. And it's steadily declining. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics Again, how does complaining about rape stop a rapist?
• Jemaclus 12y ago
  As a hetero male that is relatively new to management, what can I do to let my direct reports, indirect reports, and other colleagues know that they can report these kinds of things to me, and I will take them seriously? I don't have any women reporting directly to me right now, but it's very likely to happen over the next year, and I want to be proactive from the get-go.
  • Mandatum 12y ago
    Address or write about the issue publicly.
  • bluehat 12y ago
    Your eagerness to help is very good, and I think expressing that you care about these issues to your employees is great, but unless you tattoo it on your forehead, most employees won't know about your personal stances. Your personal stance will come much more into play when a complaint is brought to management level, since the odds of you being the one randomly handed it are pretty low. I think the lowest hanging fruit in your own workplace will be to make sure the escalation structures that already exist are strong, protect those who are afraid, and have clearly defined expected fair outcomes for when a complaint is heard. Too often reports of problems just disappear into management and die down before anything happens because nobody's planned out what they are suppose to do if there is a problem.
• fenomas 12y ago
  #2 of the recommendations at the end (correction without punishment when appropriate) is an excellent point that I've rarely/never seen discussed in articles like this. It reminds me of a past job where a friend of mine silently put up with (relatively low-level) harassment because she didn't want to get the guy pilloried. I think one confounding issue with sexism in tech is that companies find it so uncomfortable to talk about that they shy away from real analysis - adopting whatever policy comes to mind without seriously examining what the root cause was and whether they're addressing it. The only solution is cogent discussion, like this excellent article.
• unimportant 12y ago
  >I have been raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months. Stopped reading there - obvious feminist propaganda.
  • bluehat 12y ago
    Because it isn't possible for that to be true?
    • exodust 12y ago
      It's possible that an alien spaceship is buried under Antarctica.
      • bluehat 12y ago
        https://i.imgflip.com/inawd.jpg https://i.imgflip.com/inawd.jpg
  • jmathes 12y ago
    That is a monumentally stupid thing to say, and that's coming from a guy who's an active reader of /r/mensrights. I know the author personally and she's telling the truth. Women with careers who accuse others of rape are telling the truth. False rape claims always come from someone who believes she stands to gain, and women with careers ruin their careers by reporting rape. Because of mouthbreathers like you. Go climb back under your rock.
• anaximander 12y ago
  It seems to me that a lot of women are left with pretty much two options in a lot of these situations: the lethal option, and submission. Calling the police or going to HR is the "lethal" option, meaning that, in all likelihood, there is going to be a big problem, and somebody is going to suffer. I think the following scenario should be easy to understand (if not familiar) for most people: A person is walking down the street, when somebody approaches them and tells them to surrender their wallet. What would most people recommend in this situation? "Let them take your wallet, there's no point in risking your life"? What if the person being mugged revealed they were carrying a weapon capable of deadly force? Would you recommend that they use it to defend themselves? Would your recommendation change if the threatening person in question had a position of default trust (e.g. a police officer), or a member of a powerful gang? Now imagine a person in a scenario where, instead of just walking down the street, they are approached _in their office_ by somebody they trust, and instead of being asked for their wallet, they are asked for something incredibly more traumatic and unrecoverable, under the threat of complete financial destruction or possibly even physical harm. I would never want to find out which way I would decide, in any of these situations. It's abominable that anyone should have to make that kind of choice, and it's worse still that it seems to be happening under our very noses and nobody can see it. I think this article sets forth some very powerful, actionable ideas that are not only gender-neutral, but generally applicable in many other industries for many other classes of people who need options.
• jrochkind1 12y ago
  Wow. This is such a good piece. Seriously, this is incredibly well-thought out and well-written, in a very intentional way. Thanks to the author. I am pleased that it's on the HN front page. And I was at first pleased to see such a long comments thread, that people were interested in discussing it. But man, this discussion is depressing me. Arguing about the legal definition of rape, really, that's what HN feels like talking about in response to this piece?
  • MichaelGG 12y ago
    The discussion on the definition is because we're shocked that someone could be repeatedly raped without calling the cops. From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed. If someone were to say they were mugged several times by a colleague, we'd ask why the cops weren't called. Hence it's terribly upsetting to hear a colleague repeatedly does worse. But if the definition of mugged was that someone's colleague repeatedly left them with $500 bar tabs that they felt compelled to pay, then we might say, yeah, I see the issue. It's not actually a legal mugging in such a case, even if it's effectively as bad (minus the trauma of having, say, a gun pointed at you).
    • jrochkind1 12y ago
      "From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed." For real, bro? So let me get this straight, you're either upset that someone was mugged or stabbed without calling the cops, or you're upset (but maybe not as upset) that a colleague has done something worse than mugging or stabbing (a colleague of yours? that you know of? Have you considered calling the police?) You can 'see the issue' with $500 bar tabs, but not with muggings? Or wait, by 'you can see the issue' you mean you don't believe the author, you think she's lying or confused when she writes 'rape', unless she says that she didn't really mean rape, in which case now you 'see the issue' and are wiling to support doing something about it? If you don't believe the author, it would be less confusing if you just said so. Or is it that you're only willing to do something about $500 bar tabs if you can first convince the person subject to them to stop calling it a mugging, cause that's the important thing here, eliminating that mugging/bar-tab confusion which is a scourge on our society? Me, I'd start out assuming if the author wrote rape she didn't mean a $500 bar tab. But the ironic thing is that most of the essay isn't actually about rape. Man. Yeah, I'm not contributing to a useful conversation, I realize. I have no idea how the author manages to engage in this sort of conversation -- which the OP article is, an engagement in this sort of conversation, as well as the author's participation in this reddit thread -- while maintaining such an even temper, and always making the most charitable possible interpretation of everyone's comments (or at least successfully pretending to). I am impressed. I would need to work a lot harder than apparently I'm willing to, to pull that off.
• AstroChimpHam 12y ago
  > Realistically, only bad things happen to the whistleblower. So when someone tries to discredit one, ask yourself — what could the whistleblower’s motive possibly be? They’re knowingly ruining their own lives. Whistle blowers become folk heroes to a lot of people. No one cared what Edward Snowden, the NSA analyst had to say. Everyone cares what Edward Snowden, the whistleblower has to say. If you want that kind of popularity and respect, be a whistleblower. I'm by no means saying that's the motivation for all whistleblowers, but I'd be dumbfounded if it wasn't the motivation for some, and separating the two is frequently difficult.
• exodust 12y ago
  "I have had interviewers attempt to solicit sexual favors from me mid-interview and discuss in significant detail precisely what they would like to do" Bullshit.
  • bluehat 12y ago
    Of every claim you have heard, this is the one you think isn't real?
    • MrScruff 12y ago
      I think the reason you always see these sort of responses in these threads is that most men really have zero awareness of what women have to put up with in everyday life. If we imagine that only 1 in 20 guys is a creep or worse, and that all of these men will remain regular offenders throughout their life, that's still a huge amount of individual incidents of women being made to feel uncomfortable (or worse). When you look at it this way, it's easy to see how a woman might find herself being harassed in some way or another on almost daily basis. Discussion with female friends bears this out. I personally know of several guys who, while I'm not claiming they've committed any crimes, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving them alone with female friends. But because a lot of men don't have any first hand experience of this sort of behaviour, it's difficult for them to believe it's real.
      • exodust 12y ago
        Give me a break. She's been raped, bribed, assaulted, abused... the list goes on. Could it be any more dramatic? I see a movie in this. Perhaps someone is writing a script? More fiction: "I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off." If you can't recognise that as BS, I can't help you. I'm not denying sexism exists in the world, but we shouldn't deny that some people do have a tendency to fill in the blanks of an otherwise uninteresting but personal incident in their lives to give it more attention. She needs support and help, and probably not the wrath of comments like mine. But as "someone on the internet" I have no reason other than to call it as I see it. The other possibility is she suffers from schizophrenia and actually believed two dozen men were chanting at a professional conference for her to take her top off. Most conferences are recorded... let's see or hear the tape. Show me the evidence of this event and I'll donate $500 to the charity of your choice. She wrote this for international women's day. But it's not about women, it's about her, and it's fiction. My advice to her would be to stick with robotics, games and the other interesting things she does, and report incidents as they happen to the relevant authorities. MOST MEN in tech are decent human beings, and I for one am not going to sit here and take an article meant for international women's day turned personal vendetta aimed at an entire industry and the men within. With lines such as "fundamentally change the balance of power between genders", and "sexism in tech is out of control"... she has a hidden agenda, and I'm not on board. Good luck to her anyway!
• gretful 12y ago
  This is a sad article. There used to exist guidelines to beahvior, one being "don't fish off the company dock". Following that would eliminate almost all of the sexual harassment BS.
• aviziva 12y ago
  U.N. Finds ‘Alarmingly High’ Levels of Violence Against Women - About 35 percent of women worldwide — more than one in three — said they had experienced violence in their lifetime, whether physical, sexual, or both, the report finds. One in 10 girls under the age of 18 was forced to have sex, it says.
• BrassBody 12y ago
  I'm willing to put $10,000 into escrow as a bet that this is all made up for attention. The OP is just a feminist propaganda spreading troublemaker. Put your money where your mouth is. You produce proof, I pay you $10,000.
  • brohee 12y ago
    The DefCon "show us your tits" incident is pretty well documented... Feel free to donate the money to RAINN (https://www.rainn.org/ https://www.rainn.org/)
• hashed 12y ago
  This girl is lying, the story doesn't make sense and everybody here are too nice to point it out so they try with this typical programmer passive nice way to point out how the story doesn't add up and how nobody actually faced this kind of environment anywhere. Guys, have some balls, call bullshit when it's due. The tech industry is not more sexist than any other industry, the opposite. I have seen much more mischief in one coked up night among traders than my whole career in tech. And you know what, girls love those people and want to work with them or do other things with them, because they don't apologise and they call girls on their bullshit. That's why you will see more women in finance or law than in tech. It's also easier and you don't have to spend your days and night secluded in front of a monitor. It is all excuses by women who don't want to put the time, effort and social price that it takes to become a good software developer. The women who do it right and i have worked with some during the years, don't complain about rape, they write great code and everybody respect them for that.
  • bluehat 12y ago
    What evidence do you have that the tech industry is less sexist than other places? Are you arguing that women like working with sexist people through your finance experience? Are you arguing that women who talk about rape don't have the respect of their peers and must be bad coders? I don't understand any of what you said.
    • hashed 12y ago
      What evidence you got that it is more sexist? Girls don't like sexist people, they like confident people and I have learned it from life. As for the last claim, I don't know how you read it from my comment.
      • bluehat 12y ago
        I have no evidence it is more sexist than anywhere else. I only said it was a problem and that it needs solving.
• somereddit 12y ago
  http://www.reddit.com/user/bluehrair http://www.reddit.com/user/bluehrair <- that's her reddit account