8 ms·

I agree very much with all of this, except, women aren't responsible for fixing male violence and objectification, we men are. So I would concur with the first

I agree very much with all of this, except, women aren't responsible for fixing male violence and objectification, we men are. So I would concur with the first sentence if "you" is aimed at men.

grandalf 12y ago
Just to clarify, you was aimed at men and women equally. We all have to act to fix it.
- detcader 12y ago
  Women don't have do, do they? "Have" implies responsibility. See my reply to esgoto.
  - grandalf 12y ago
    I don't think it implies responsibility beyond just being partly responsible for the overall corporate culture and being willing to do something about it when something is harming it.
    - detcader 12y ago
      I think what we are dealing with is male culture, not any sort of corporate culture. If we're talking about a corporate culture of not being able to hold people accountable for mistakes in general, then I would agree.
      - grandalf 12y ago
        I've observed that some women buy into it and seem to like/admire those who do some of that behavior.
        detcader 12y ago
        "Some women" believe that women are meant to serve their husband's every command, but this is not consequential to the responsibility of the men in these subcultures (like those often within religious communities, for example). You note that women "buy", but what is the merchant?
        grandalf 12y ago
        Not sure how to respond to this. I don't think responsibility matters in this case, it's more of a pragmatic question of how can those of us who do care about it make a positive impact in a world where many people don't care to (for one reason or another).
        detcader 12y ago
        That's good, I agree that there are avenues pretty much anyone can take to make change in the world.
        camgunz 12y ago
        Women are free to do that, because they're the oppressed group. They aren't members of the patriarchy, they're oppressed by it. Whether or not they're behaving that way due to internalized sexism or personal preference is irrelevant to the point that this is a pattern of male sexual aggression.
        detcader 12y ago
        Thanks, this is what I was trying to say, but without words like "oppressed" and "patriarchy" because most of my fellow men don't understand what these words mean or deny the reality the that they refer to.
        camgunz 12y ago
        Yeah I feel like whenever "patriarchy" gets into my posts, I get 500 downvotes. I'm a white male too, fwiw. Go team. EDIT: Aaaaaaand there we go. Finally.
      - Dewie 12y ago
        I'm a man who happens to not participate in that culture. You think I have any responsibility with regards to this issue? You think that, despite me not making lewd comments, encouraging lewd comments or behaviour, I am partly responsible for the fact that this happens? No. You don't get to put a collective blame on me just because I happen to have a penis.
esgoto 12y ago
That's akin to saying we non-murderers aren't responsible for fixing murders, only murderers are. Anyone can help fix this. You're right that ultimately it comes down to men's attitude and actions but anyone can help achieve the changes necessary.
- detcader 12y ago
  I never said that women can't help or change things, I said it is not their responsibility. If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men. "Why didn't you leave the company? Why didn't you talk to all the men about appropriate behavior before one of them attacked you?"
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    I don't see why it's massively more the responsibility of men that don't harass than women that don't harass. It really is a societal problem, involving everybody, like the murder rate. >could say that People will use anything as excuses. Don't give in to them, and don't use their conclusions to make arguments about the premises.
    - detcader 12y ago
      You use the word "societal". But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? I'm not "giving in" to anything, why is this about me? Do you know what I meant by the word "we"?
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        You're giving in to the (abstract but real) person that says "If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men." That person is wrong and terrible. That person will demonstrate that a particular woman has the smallest iota of responsibility and then blame them 100%. Don't listen to that person. Don't use their flawed argument to support your argument. >But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? Non-abusing women and non-abusing men both sometimes act as enablers for abusers. By not speaking out. By not firing bad actors. Etc. The abusers are directly to blame, and everyone is indirectly to blame. There is no sane way to conclude that all men but only men are to blame.
Dewie 12y ago
Fuck off. "Men" is not a hive mind. I'm not responsible for what another man does. I might be complicit if I encourage it and join in in a sexist culture. But by simply existing as another man? Fuck no. I am an individual, and you have no idea who I engage with, what cultures or attitudes or promote, or what kind of company I keep. Stop looking at people as being spokespeople for their group - gender, religion, nationality. We are individuals.
- dang 12y ago
  > Fuck off. That is totally out of line. Please re-read the rules and follow them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tomp 12y ago
I'm not responsible for violence either, even though I'm not a woman. Only the perpetrators themselves are responsible for the violence.

I agree very much with all of this, except, women aren't responsible for fixing male violence and objectification, we men are. So I would concur with the first sentence if "you" is aimed at men.

grandalf 12y ago

Just to clarify, you was aimed at men and women equally. We all have to act to fix it.

detcader 12y ago
Women don't have do, do they? "Have" implies responsibility. See my reply to esgoto.
- grandalf 12y ago
  I don't think it implies responsibility beyond just being partly responsible for the overall corporate culture and being willing to do something about it when something is harming it.
  - detcader 12y ago
    I think what we are dealing with is male culture, not any sort of corporate culture. If we're talking about a corporate culture of not being able to hold people accountable for mistakes in general, then I would agree.
    - grandalf 12y ago
      I've observed that some women buy into it and seem to like/admire those who do some of that behavior.
      - detcader 12y ago
        "Some women" believe that women are meant to serve their husband's every command, but this is not consequential to the responsibility of the men in these subcultures (like those often within religious communities, for example). You note that women "buy", but what is the merchant?
        grandalf 12y ago
        Not sure how to respond to this. I don't think responsibility matters in this case, it's more of a pragmatic question of how can those of us who do care about it make a positive impact in a world where many people don't care to (for one reason or another).
        detcader 12y ago
        That's good, I agree that there are avenues pretty much anyone can take to make change in the world.
      - camgunz 12y ago
        Women are free to do that, because they're the oppressed group. They aren't members of the patriarchy, they're oppressed by it. Whether or not they're behaving that way due to internalized sexism or personal preference is irrelevant to the point that this is a pattern of male sexual aggression.
        detcader 12y ago
        Thanks, this is what I was trying to say, but without words like "oppressed" and "patriarchy" because most of my fellow men don't understand what these words mean or deny the reality the that they refer to.
        camgunz 12y ago
        Yeah I feel like whenever "patriarchy" gets into my posts, I get 500 downvotes. I'm a white male too, fwiw. Go team. EDIT: Aaaaaaand there we go. Finally.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      I'm a man who happens to not participate in that culture. You think I have any responsibility with regards to this issue? You think that, despite me not making lewd comments, encouraging lewd comments or behaviour, I am partly responsible for the fact that this happens? No. You don't get to put a collective blame on me just because I happen to have a penis.

esgoto 12y ago

That's akin to saying we non-murderers aren't responsible for fixing murders, only murderers are. Anyone can help fix this. You're right that ultimately it comes down to men's attitude and actions but anyone can help achieve the changes necessary.

detcader 12y ago
I never said that women can't help or change things, I said it is not their responsibility. If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men. "Why didn't you leave the company? Why didn't you talk to all the men about appropriate behavior before one of them attacked you?"
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  I don't see why it's massively more the responsibility of men that don't harass than women that don't harass. It really is a societal problem, involving everybody, like the murder rate. >could say that People will use anything as excuses. Don't give in to them, and don't use their conclusions to make arguments about the premises.
  - detcader 12y ago
    You use the word "societal". But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? I'm not "giving in" to anything, why is this about me? Do you know what I meant by the word "we"?
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      You're giving in to the (abstract but real) person that says "If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men." That person is wrong and terrible. That person will demonstrate that a particular woman has the smallest iota of responsibility and then blame them 100%. Don't listen to that person. Don't use their flawed argument to support your argument. >But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? Non-abusing women and non-abusing men both sometimes act as enablers for abusers. By not speaking out. By not firing bad actors. Etc. The abusers are directly to blame, and everyone is indirectly to blame. There is no sane way to conclude that all men but only men are to blame.

Dewie 12y ago

Fuck off. "Men" is not a hive mind. I'm not responsible for what another man does. I might be complicit if I encourage it and join in in a sexist culture. But by simply existing as another man? Fuck no. I am an individual, and you have no idea who I engage with, what cultures or attitudes or promote, or what kind of company I keep. Stop looking at people as being spokespeople for their group - gender, religion, nationality. We are individuals.

dang 12y ago
> Fuck off. That is totally out of line. Please re-read the rules and follow them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tomp 12y ago

I'm not responsible for violence either, even though I'm not a woman. Only the perpetrators themselves are responsible for the violence.