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If you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or t

If you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. It's surprising how far some men will go if the behavior is tolerated. Often socially dominant men or those who have some kind of position of authority will get worse and worse. They will often not address the comments at anyone in particular but will just say lewd things and talk about sexual topics when doing so is not invited or warranted, often mixed with humor. When a joke is told by a person with some authority, the response is typically laughter, even if the joke was inappropriate. Even those who might otherwise disapprove tend not to say anything. Many women are just ambitious enough to ignore it, thinking that such behavior is in their best career interest (and it may be). Some people have a knee-jerk negative reaction to feminism, but the important thing to realize is that when you are a woman you have to constantly turn down sex and sexual interest from males. This is true 100x for attractive women. When coupled with organizational power dynamics this is a very serious issue because it causes the victims extra stress and is bullying and unfair. To generalize, don't ever hire or work with anyone you'd characterize as a bully.

detcader 12y ago
I agree very much with all of this, except, women aren't responsible for fixing male violence and objectification, we men are. So I would concur with the first sentence if "you" is aimed at men.
- grandalf 12y ago
  Just to clarify, you was aimed at men and women equally. We all have to act to fix it.
  - detcader 12y ago
    Women don't have do, do they? "Have" implies responsibility. See my reply to esgoto.
    - grandalf 12y ago
      I don't think it implies responsibility beyond just being partly responsible for the overall corporate culture and being willing to do something about it when something is harming it.
      - detcader 12y ago
        I think what we are dealing with is male culture, not any sort of corporate culture. If we're talking about a corporate culture of not being able to hold people accountable for mistakes in general, then I would agree.
        grandalf 12y ago
        I've observed that some women buy into it and seem to like/admire those who do some of that behavior.
        detcader 12y ago
        "Some women" believe that women are meant to serve their husband's every command, but this is not consequential to the responsibility of the men in these subcultures (like those often within religious communities, for example). You note that women "buy", but what is the merchant?
        grandalf 12y ago
        Not sure how to respond to this. I don't think responsibility matters in this case, it's more of a pragmatic question of how can those of us who do care about it make a positive impact in a world where many people don't care to (for one reason or another).
        detcader 12y ago
        That's good, I agree that there are avenues pretty much anyone can take to make change in the world.
- esgoto 12y ago
  That's akin to saying we non-murderers aren't responsible for fixing murders, only murderers are. Anyone can help fix this. You're right that ultimately it comes down to men's attitude and actions but anyone can help achieve the changes necessary.
  - detcader 12y ago
    I never said that women can't help or change things, I said it is not their responsibility. If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men. "Why didn't you leave the company? Why didn't you talk to all the men about appropriate behavior before one of them attacked you?"
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      I don't see why it's massively more the responsibility of men that don't harass than women that don't harass. It really is a societal problem, involving everybody, like the murder rate. >could say that People will use anything as excuses. Don't give in to them, and don't use their conclusions to make arguments about the premises.
      - detcader 12y ago
        You use the word "societal". But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? I'm not "giving in" to anything, why is this about me? Do you know what I meant by the word "we"?
        Dylan16807 12y ago
        You're giving in to the (abstract but real) person that says "If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men." That person is wrong and terrible. That person will demonstrate that a particular woman has the smallest iota of responsibility and then blame them 100%. Don't listen to that person. Don't use their flawed argument to support your argument. >But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? Non-abusing women and non-abusing men both sometimes act as enablers for abusers. By not speaking out. By not firing bad actors. Etc. The abusers are directly to blame, and everyone is indirectly to blame. There is no sane way to conclude that all men but only men are to blame.
- Dewie 12y ago
  Fuck off. "Men" is not a hive mind. I'm not responsible for what another man does. I might be complicit if I encourage it and join in in a sexist culture. But by simply existing as another man? Fuck no. I am an individual, and you have no idea who I engage with, what cultures or attitudes or promote, or what kind of company I keep. Stop looking at people as being spokespeople for their group - gender, religion, nationality. We are individuals.
  - dang 12y ago
    > Fuck off. That is totally out of line. Please re-read the rules and follow them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tomp 12y ago
  I'm not responsible for violence either, even though I'm not a woman. Only the perpetrators themselves are responsible for the violence.
rwbcxrz 12y ago
> If you work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. A thousand times this. We all have a responsibility to stop workplace harassment. As a manager, it would infuriate me to learn that a member of my team had been treated this way. It saddens me to think that for most people, incidents like these won't reduce people's interest in working for Google.
- grandalf 12y ago
  The description of Vic Gundotra, if true, is disappointing. One would think that someone so polished and smart would have the sense to realize that such behavior is over the line.
  - thomasahle 12y ago
    You mean this tweet? > After hours, having drinks with Vic and the gang. Vic talking about how G+ was promoting Sasha Grey. Starts talking about how hot she is. I may be entirely clueless, but is this not considered an acceptable topic for after hours drinks? - Edit: I found another Vic tweet that you were more likely referring to: > "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - grandalf 12y ago
        Women are typically judged/evaluated excessively on the basis of their looks, so his assertion basically says "yep I/Google evaluate women on the basis of their looks".
        meowface 12y ago
        Is there a link with a collection of all of the comments?
afarrell 12y ago
Standing up to something in the moment, individually...is really hard and can actually be rather embarrassing. If you found you kept your mouth shut or laughed along at something so as to avoid social awkwardness, that doesn't mean you failed. You still have the opportunity to right things. Reach out to an colleague for moral support. To quote pervocracy: """ When I worked on an ambulance (this is my personal "one time in band camp"), we were at a nursing home, dropping a patient off after a routine transport, when we saw something disturbing. A nurse was giving liquid medication to another patient who was clearly choking on it. The patient was gagging horribly, the nurse was holding his head in place and forcing the oral syringe down his throat even as he was thrashing and making drowning noises, and after she finished she walked away even though he was coughing up medication all over his pillow. My work partner and I saw this, and, with that creeped out feeling of "did I just see what I think I saw?" and "something's not right," we... left and took another call and went off to the hospital. Then we grabbed some lunch. Then one of us--I don't even remember which one--blurted it out. "That thing at the nursing home... you saw that too, right? That was kind of fucked up, right?" Those two sentences started the chain of events that lead to us filing a formal elder abuse report. """ http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-one-ally.html?m=1 http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-one-ally.html?m=...
- grandalf 12y ago
  Exactly. If enough people do something small it can make a big difference, it's not necessary to vocally confront anyone or even do anything publicly (though if you do all the better).
- jheriko 12y ago
  doing the right thing is hard. we need to encourage it more...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
downandout 12y ago
> If you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. This is true. However, this incident - by itself - isn't evidence of a "culture that is harassing/hostile to women" at Google. All I see in this incident is evidence of a single employee, making a single inappropriate comment, with an over-the-top, attention seeking reaction by its recipient. This is a matter for HR - not for Twitter/Google+. On the bright side, this is probably the most action that Google+ has seen in quite a while.
- leereeves 12y ago
  She pinned a single quote, but she alleges much more: a pattern of behavior, and willful ignorance or worse by HR. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163769
  - powertower 12y ago
    3 statements, one of which seemed to be made under the influence, and the other 2 which where simple quick compliments (and in no way harassment), made offsite, and years apart, is not a pattern. It's dots. Her further allegations of being pigeon holed or moved out because of this are not proven, and might not be true at all.
    - leereeves 12y ago
      If you mean that we shouldn't destroy a man's or a company's reputation based solely on these allegations, I absolutely agree.
- x0x0 12y ago
  And congrats, you are the problem. Either 1 - you didn't read her claims; or 2 - you don't see the problem in a supervisor making such a comment, necessitating the employee's career advancement stop so she wouldn't report directly to him. So it's not just a single employee, but other people involved making sure she doesn't report to him. The instant he made that comment Google had to choose, and they chose him over her. And claiming she needs a reprimand... I don't even.

detcader 12y ago

I agree very much with all of this, except, women aren't responsible for fixing male violence and objectification, we men are. So I would concur with the first sentence if "you" is aimed at men.

grandalf 12y ago
Just to clarify, you was aimed at men and women equally. We all have to act to fix it.
- detcader 12y ago
  Women don't have do, do they? "Have" implies responsibility. See my reply to esgoto.
  - grandalf 12y ago
    I don't think it implies responsibility beyond just being partly responsible for the overall corporate culture and being willing to do something about it when something is harming it.
    - detcader 12y ago
      I think what we are dealing with is male culture, not any sort of corporate culture. If we're talking about a corporate culture of not being able to hold people accountable for mistakes in general, then I would agree.
      - grandalf 12y ago
        I've observed that some women buy into it and seem to like/admire those who do some of that behavior.
        detcader 12y ago
        "Some women" believe that women are meant to serve their husband's every command, but this is not consequential to the responsibility of the men in these subcultures (like those often within religious communities, for example). You note that women "buy", but what is the merchant?
        grandalf 12y ago
        Not sure how to respond to this. I don't think responsibility matters in this case, it's more of a pragmatic question of how can those of us who do care about it make a positive impact in a world where many people don't care to (for one reason or another).
        detcader 12y ago
        That's good, I agree that there are avenues pretty much anyone can take to make change in the world.
esgoto 12y ago
That's akin to saying we non-murderers aren't responsible for fixing murders, only murderers are. Anyone can help fix this. You're right that ultimately it comes down to men's attitude and actions but anyone can help achieve the changes necessary.
- detcader 12y ago
  I never said that women can't help or change things, I said it is not their responsibility. If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men. "Why didn't you leave the company? Why didn't you talk to all the men about appropriate behavior before one of them attacked you?"
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    I don't see why it's massively more the responsibility of men that don't harass than women that don't harass. It really is a societal problem, involving everybody, like the murder rate. >could say that People will use anything as excuses. Don't give in to them, and don't use their conclusions to make arguments about the premises.
    - detcader 12y ago
      You use the word "societal". But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? I'm not "giving in" to anything, why is this about me? Do you know what I meant by the word "we"?
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        You're giving in to the (abstract but real) person that says "If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men." That person is wrong and terrible. That person will demonstrate that a particular woman has the smallest iota of responsibility and then blame them 100%. Don't listen to that person. Don't use their flawed argument to support your argument. >But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea? Non-abusing women and non-abusing men both sometimes act as enablers for abusers. By not speaking out. By not firing bad actors. Etc. The abusers are directly to blame, and everyone is indirectly to blame. There is no sane way to conclude that all men but only men are to blame.
Dewie 12y ago
Fuck off. "Men" is not a hive mind. I'm not responsible for what another man does. I might be complicit if I encourage it and join in in a sexist culture. But by simply existing as another man? Fuck no. I am an individual, and you have no idea who I engage with, what cultures or attitudes or promote, or what kind of company I keep. Stop looking at people as being spokespeople for their group - gender, religion, nationality. We are individuals.
- dang 12y ago
  > Fuck off. That is totally out of line. Please re-read the rules and follow them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tomp 12y ago
I'm not responsible for violence either, even though I'm not a woman. Only the perpetrators themselves are responsible for the violence.

rwbcxrz 12y ago

> If you work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. A thousand times this. We all have a responsibility to stop workplace harassment. As a manager, it would infuriate me to learn that a member of my team had been treated this way. It saddens me to think that for most people, incidents like these won't reduce people's interest in working for Google.

grandalf 12y ago
The description of Vic Gundotra, if true, is disappointing. One would think that someone so polished and smart would have the sense to realize that such behavior is over the line.
- thomasahle 12y ago
  You mean this tweet? > After hours, having drinks with Vic and the gang. Vic talking about how G+ was promoting Sasha Grey. Starts talking about how hot she is. I may be entirely clueless, but is this not considered an acceptable topic for after hours drinks? - Edit: I found another Vic tweet that you were more likely referring to: > "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - grandalf 12y ago
      Women are typically judged/evaluated excessively on the basis of their looks, so his assertion basically says "yep I/Google evaluate women on the basis of their looks".
      - meowface 12y ago
        Is there a link with a collection of all of the comments?

afarrell 12y ago

Standing up to something in the moment, individually...is really hard and can actually be rather embarrassing. If you found you kept your mouth shut or laughed along at something so as to avoid social awkwardness, that doesn't mean you failed. You still have the opportunity to right things. Reach out to an colleague for moral support. To quote pervocracy: """ When I worked on an ambulance (this is my personal "one time in band camp"), we were at a nursing home, dropping a patient off after a routine transport, when we saw something disturbing. A nurse was giving liquid medication to another patient who was clearly choking on it. The patient was gagging horribly, the nurse was holding his head in place and forcing the oral syringe down his throat even as he was thrashing and making drowning noises, and after she finished she walked away even though he was coughing up medication all over his pillow. My work partner and I saw this, and, with that creeped out feeling of "did I just see what I think I saw?" and "something's not right," we... left and took another call and went off to the hospital. Then we grabbed some lunch. Then one of us--I don't even remember which one--blurted it out. "That thing at the nursing home... you saw that too, right? That was kind of fucked up, right?" Those two sentences started the chain of events that lead to us filing a formal elder abuse report. """ http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-one-ally.html?m=1 http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-one-ally.html?m=...

grandalf 12y ago
Exactly. If enough people do something small it can make a big difference, it's not necessary to vocally confront anyone or even do anything publicly (though if you do all the better).
jheriko 12y ago
doing the right thing is hard. we need to encourage it more...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

downandout 12y ago

> If you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. This is true. However, this incident - by itself - isn't evidence of a "culture that is harassing/hostile to women" at Google. All I see in this incident is evidence of a single employee, making a single inappropriate comment, with an over-the-top, attention seeking reaction by its recipient. This is a matter for HR - not for Twitter/Google+. On the bright side, this is probably the most action that Google+ has seen in quite a while.

leereeves 12y ago
She pinned a single quote, but she alleges much more: a pattern of behavior, and willful ignorance or worse by HR. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163769
- powertower 12y ago
  3 statements, one of which seemed to be made under the influence, and the other 2 which where simple quick compliments (and in no way harassment), made offsite, and years apart, is not a pattern. It's dots. Her further allegations of being pigeon holed or moved out because of this are not proven, and might not be true at all.
  - leereeves 12y ago
    If you mean that we shouldn't destroy a man's or a company's reputation based solely on these allegations, I absolutely agree.
x0x0 12y ago
And congrats, you are the problem. Either 1 - you didn't read her claims; or 2 - you don't see the problem in a supervisor making such a comment, necessitating the employee's career advancement stop so she wouldn't report directly to him. So it's not just a single employee, but other people involved making sure she doesn't report to him. The instant he made that comment Google had to choose, and they chose him over her. And claiming she needs a reprimand... I don't even.