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Why didn't you back me up?
- myko 12y agoQuite a long thread but holy crap, this behavior and what is described on Kelly's twitter feed (https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok) are sickening. Quite shocked that this is considered acceptable at such high levels at Google.
- gos12- 12y agoFor what it's worth, she describes herself as "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." in her Twitter bio. I'd take whatever she says with a grain of salt.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- geofft 12y agoI'd describe myself as that too, if I'd quit Google last year after being sexually harassed and watching my company turn against me.
- sayhar 12y agoThank you for saying this.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y agoI wouldn't describe myself as bitchy but I am a software engineer who thinks the patriarchy needs smashing.
- obisw4n 12y agoSeriously, lol. Just wow.
- electronous 12y agotips fedora
- zachwooddoughty 12y agoI'm not a fan of saying we should "take whatever she says with a grain of salt". It's casually dismissive of the entire situation. If you want to accuse her of having fabricated the entire story, do that and try to find evidence for it. From the limited evidence provided surrounding this incident, there seems to be a fair amount of evidence supporting her. Declaring oneself "bitchy" and wanting to "smash the patriarchy" does not mean you are inclined to quit your job and falsely call out several members of your former team.
- gos12- 12y agoI definitely don't think she's lying about this, but someone with such a strongly-worded bio is definitely more likely to exaggerate or be over-sensitive to perceived sexual harassment. (Think Adria Richards)
- detcader 12y agoI would hope that everyone would be "sensitive" to sexual harassment, in that they would be ready to identify when it is happening to them and others. How can a perosn "exaggerate" quotes?
- caminante 12y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_conte...
- detcader 12y ago>I'd take whatever she says with a grain of salt. If you mean this universally, then you are not in favor of law enforcement, at least how it is carried out in the modern world.
- gos12- 12y agoWhat? I certainly hope we don't convict people based on hearsay evidence
- Frondo 12y agoDo you have any reason to disbelieve the woman? Does she have a history of telling lies? It seems awfully dismissive to call it "hearsay evidence". Also, it doesn't look like the law is involved, so I don't think any conviction is taking place. My take on it: yet another creepy dude in power in a tech company. There's still a little of the "circle the wagons" attitude, but thankfully a lot less than I was expecting.
- at_ 12y agoThe fact you can post this after reading that twitter feed only makes me believe it harder
- texthompson 12y agoWhy do you think that?
- irremediable 12y agoSo you're saying she's a liar?
- gos12- 12y agoNo, that's not what I said. Don't misconstrue my words. I'm saying that we shouldn't be so quick to take her words as an unbiased, unexaggerated account of what happened
- irremediable 12y agoHmm. In retrospect, my phrasing was confrontational. Sorry about that. It still seems as if you're calling her a liar, though, if you're saying her account was exaggerated and biased.
- skylan_q 12y ago"bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." Doesn't HR vet self-proclaimed troublemakers anymore, or is it OK to hire anti-establishment people as long as they're of the right flavor? If I had "asshole software engineer. doing what I can to smash the matriacrchy" in my twitter bio, I would be figuratively destroyed.
- Dylan16807 12y agoDepends on what the hell you mean by "matriarchy". The problem there isn't political views, it's when your wording implies you're so blinded by bigotry you've lost touch with reality. You can favor this or that party but don't tell me you're disappointed in the korean takeover of alabama.
- ebfe 12y agoThe word "matriarchy" is an accurate characterization of our society to the same extent that "patriarchy" is. The former conveys how men are overrepresented at the bottom of society while failing to address their overrepresentation at the top, while the latter does the opposite.
- detcader 12y agoYou would be "figuratively destroyed"? What does this mean and how do you come to this conclusion? I don't think the quoted bio describes a "troublemaker", could you explain this?
- geofft 12y agoI thought we're all disruptors here. So if a company's trying to disrupt things, its HR should be hiring self-proclaimed troublemakers.
- robterrell 12y agoHave you considered that she might have written that bio after these events forced her to leave Google?
- rosser 12y agoAd hominem. EDIT: Really? Sometimes, HN makes me sad. "Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments. Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy." [1] "Arguments of this kind focus not on the evidence for a view but on the character of the person advancing it; they seek to discredit positions by discrediting those who hold them." [2] "It is irrelevant, however, to call into question the reliability or morality or anything else about a person when the issue is whether that person's reasons for making a claim are good enough reasons to support the claim." [3] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Abusive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Abusive [2]: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/ad-hominem/ http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/ad-hominem/ [3]: http://www.skepdic.com/adhominem.html http://www.skepdic.com/adhominem.html
- 6d0debc071 12y agoThe woman making the claim isn't, as far as I can tell, making an argument on this point. She's making a statement. In statements the credibility of the person making the claim is important. Like if I lied every single time I spoke, and you knew me to do so, and I said that I definitely was going to give you £100, you would be right to be sceptical of me. Nost arguments have two parts: Factual claims that may or may not align with how the world actually is, and a logical structure. If X then Y, X therefore Y. Would be an example of one such structure (modus ponens being the underlying rule.) Another example would be If X then Y, not Y therefore not X (modus tollens.) Something where the structure is an example of a way of reasoning that preserves truth values is called 'valid,' and something where the structure does so and the claims that are made using that structure are true is called 'sound.' Now if I, being an always-liar in the original assumption, used one of those structures, my character would have no bearing on the validity of the underlying logic. The example of logical form would either be a valid way to argue; preserving the truth states of my predicates; or it wouldn't. And one can lie within the constraints of a logical form or not. 'Logic is true of any world, so it doesn't tell you where you happen to be.' Likewise, it is incorrect to say that when someone just lies a lot that their character absolutely means that what they're saying will always be a lie. So you can't directly state that because someone's character is low that when they use a logical form they are, of necessity, expressing something false. In these latter two senses it would be a mistake to equate - on a 1-1 basis - the soundness of someone's argument with the content of their character. However in the latter of those two senses, it is only a fallacy to state that someone's argument is equated on a 1-1 basis. It is not a fallacy to say that someone, for example, lies a lot so the claims in their argument are less likely to be true. So, someone comes along and makes a fairly direct claim and someone challenges their credibility, saying that they'd take it with a pinch of salt because the claim favours what they take to the claimant's previously expressed political interests. That's not a fallacy. If they said that she was obviously lying, then that would be more than is warranted by the evidence, but the form of the statement they're making isn't an example of an ad hominem fallacy.
- urda 12y ago> she describes herself as "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." I lost respect of her immediately after reading this.
- detcader 12y agoWhy? If you don't actually elaborate, why does this matter to anyone else?
- urda 12y agoThat's completely unprofessional and demonstrates a poor lack of understanding. This illusion of a "patriarchy" is silly. That shouldn't require that kind of elaboration to the common individual. There's a reason why this article is trending downward on HN, think about it.
- detcader 12y ago"Silly" "unprofessional" and such is all relative. I think identification and resistance to the social condition called patriarchy is legitimate, demonstrates a clear understanding, and would reflect neutrally if not positively on a person's ability to conduct themselves profressionally. Hey look, we are nowhere new than where we were before asserting these things at each other. I've thought about "it", don't worry.
- urda 12y ago> "Silly" "unprofessional" and such is all relative. To some extent, but in a technical field such as this being unable to determine that such a tag line as "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." being unprofessional demonstrates a deep, deep failure to understand the social implications. > I think identification and resistance to the social condition called patriarchy is legitimate It actually isn't at all, given females have been given more and more options in the workplace. This is 2015, not late 1800's. Thinking as such again demonstrates a failed understanding. > I've thought about "it", don't worry. Yeah I don't think so at all, and given that this article has fallen off the frontpage and [flagkilled] confirms my claim. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't get you to drink. Nevertheless, I can't waste anymore time on your flawed understanding of reality.
- mark_l_watson 12y agoThere is nothing wrong with that tagline. She is stating that she is a feminist. I took Google's ethics training and it seems clear that their policy is to have a very large tent where diverse people can feel comfortable working together. If her accusations are true, then it sounds like there is a bad apple in the barrel in upper management.
- nostrademons 12y agoYonatan Zunger's comment on the G+ post is illuminating: "Damned straight, I wouldn't. But at this point numerous legal issues kick in so I can't say anything further in public, including any of the obscenities I'm thinking right now." My read on that is that he doesn't consider it acceptable, but any public show of support or acknowledgment that the incidents in question occurred would be construed as an admission of guilt by Google, which would open them up to a sexual harassment lawsuit. So ironically, the same laws that are designed to protect women in the workforce strip them of support from anyone who is a high-ranking official in the company that employs them. I wouldn't be surprised if the eng director in question got a private reprimand, but doing anything career-affecting (like removing him from a management chain, or firing him) requires significant documentation of a pattern of behavior...which is hard to generate when his accusers (quite understandably) leave the company.
- detcader 12y agoWhat would be the consequences to Zunger if he did elaborate? Why must he protect Google from a lawsuit?
- nostrademons 12y agoHe doesn't have to on a personal level, but on a professional level, he is an agent of the company and must act in the company's best interests. If he doesn't, he's not doing his job and can be fired. The irony is that if you escalated to Larry I bet he'd think that the quotes documented here are appalling - and his hands would still be tied. Because he has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of Google Inc, and it is not in their interests to get sued by an employee. Which again goes to show how dumb the idea of "maximizing shareholder value" is, but then, it's the environment we live under.
- detcader 12y agoAccording to your analysis then, he is currently protecting himself. Even though, from how I see it, if action were taken against him, it would generate a lot of publicity and support for him and he would not necessarily sacrifice his lifestyle and living means (this is arguable, but I think it's an important argument as to what extent it matters)
- honksillet 12y agoSo every time there is an HR dispute it is news worthy? Let the lawyers settle this.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- Serplat 12y agoThis story appears to go beyond a simple HR dispute, but is endemic of a culture all too common in our industry that we should have zero tolerance of and should work to undermine. It appears that not only were inappropriate statements made, but other high-ups at Google weren't willing to stand up for what's right. Considering this happened at an employer of many readers on this site who may have additional insights or stories to add, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have posted here.
- tomek_zemla 12y agoExactly. It would be interesting to hear from some Google employees here, both men and women, about their good or bad sexism related experiences at the company.
- marczellm 12y agohttps://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. However with the other stories she tells I understand why she included this. Nevertheless this got me thinking: could we consider overly sexy looks a form of harassment too? (Unrelated to the specific story; I'm sure she didn't intentionally try to attract her bosses' attention.) As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc.
- rwbcxrz 12y agoIt's incredibly inappropriate for a manager to make sexual remarks about one of their employees. > As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc. You sound like you're speaking on behalf of all males. You don't. If that's really your reaction, you should seek counseling. Trembling and being unable to work are not really normal reactions.
- rodgerd 12y ago> You sound like you're speaking on behalf of all males. You don't I'd like to amplify this.
- smtddr 12y ago>>A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. That definitely depends on the compliment; exactly what attribute about the person you're complimenting.....
- zaroth 12y agoHow about lets start with visible items of clothing which are on public display. "You look amazing in that ___, like a rock star." If that is harassment, I guess I'm harassing my coworkers pretty much daily. The original tweeted "quote" was absolutely offensive. The tweet linked by @marczellm, umm... I guess I just don't get it. I've probably said the exact same thing many times to colleagues. I can guarantee women say the same to women on a regular basis, and men to men. But a man uttering the same words to a woman and all of a sudden you're fired and here's a lawsuit to boot? What if a woman complements a man's outfit? How is any of that even remotely sexual harassment? I think there are reasonable bounds that people generally agree on what is and what is not "sexual harassment". There is some really disgusting shit going on in some of these workplaces... there's more than enough actual harassment going around. If you are calling out basic complements on what you are physically wearing at the moment... frankly I would not risk working with someone who thought an honest complement was sexual harassment. How can you work with someone under those conditions, how can you take the risk they wouldn't go on Twitter and start libeling you? I don't want to work with anyone I can't build camaraderie with, and that means being able to pay someone an honest complement, without worrying in the back of my mind if the coworker is going to run on Twitter and claim I harassed them. I am certainly more skeptical of the TFA tweet after reading the second posted by @marczellm.
- detcader 12y agoI believe her, and I believe by the historical record that her male harasser incapable of being a "director" of people, that is, the word "people" defined to include women.
- FaisalRashid 12y agoWell, that is bad!
- aststo 12y agoShe mentions in one of the comments: > It was ... in Maui, "It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now." Was she in a thong, on the beach, after hours, after drinks, intentionally shaking her butt in his face, flirting with him when he said that? Who knows. And we can't know because she doesn't give us any context from what I could see. Why would she publish this kind of accusation (like pinning the quote above to the top of your twitter profile) without context? I'm guessing that's because the context hurts her narrative. Here's a recent sexual harassment allegation that also lacked context: > The final straw was when a female coworker and a friend were hula hooping to music in the office, and male coworkers lined up on a bench to stare. "It looked like something out of a strip club," Horvath says. "When I brought this up to male coworkers, they didn’t see a problem with it. But for me it felt unsafe and to be honest, really embarrassing. That was the moment I decided to finally leave GitHub. This was her final straw, the moment she decided she had to leave. What context does she give us? Did you notice where she mentioned this was at a party? Or that this was a performance, not just people hula hooping on their own in some corner of the office? Or how females were also impressed with and enjoying the hula hooping? Nope, no context, because it hurts her narrative of males misbehaving. I only glanced at the long list of tweets or comments to see if there was more details or if anyone tried to defend themselves and didn't see anything but blaming the people accused by her. Note I'm not saying that just because a coworker is in a swimming suit it's ok to harass them. But I don't think it's by any means clear that there is no context in which the above money quote is ok.
- detcader 12y agoAlcohol, the hour, and the geographic location excuses sexual harassment in your mind?
- hurin 12y agoOne off-hand and inappropriate comment is not sexual harassment - and does not justify a witch-hunt (to which people on the Internet are so often inclined). I'm sure the reasons are stronger if she left the company on account of them (but information is lacking) - I think GP asking for context is a very reasonable question.
- grandalf 12y agoIf you (man or woman) work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. It's surprising how far some men will go if the behavior is tolerated. Often socially dominant men or those who have some kind of position of authority will get worse and worse. They will often not address the comments at anyone in particular but will just say lewd things and talk about sexual topics when doing so is not invited or warranted, often mixed with humor. When a joke is told by a person with some authority, the response is typically laughter, even if the joke was inappropriate. Even those who might otherwise disapprove tend not to say anything. Many women are just ambitious enough to ignore it, thinking that such behavior is in their best career interest (and it may be). Some people have a knee-jerk negative reaction to feminism, but the important thing to realize is that when you are a woman you have to constantly turn down sex and sexual interest from males. This is true 100x for attractive women. When coupled with organizational power dynamics this is a very serious issue because it causes the victims extra stress and is bullying and unfair. To generalize, don't ever hire or work with anyone you'd characterize as a bully.
- detcader 12y agoI agree very much with all of this, except, women aren't responsible for fixing male violence and objectification, we men are. So I would concur with the first sentence if "you" is aimed at men.
- JDiculous 12y agoWhat's the context of the statement? For all we know, it could've been an offhand joke by a drunk co-worker at a happy hour while the two were flirting.
- minimaxir 12y agohttps://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574069743134486528 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574069743134486528 There is no context where that would be appropriate.
- JDiculous 12y agoSure, but the severity of the allegations completely depend on the context.
- marak830 12y agoYes there is. If they were drinking and saying they were attracted to one another. If they were lovers and hiding it infront of co workers. Wr dont know the context , and while i agree it doesnt sound that way, it may be explainable. Its more likely some douche with beer in him and should be fired, but there is a case where that comment is appropriate.
- clavalle 12y agoYeah, if either of those were the case, we'd never hear about it, would we? She felt sufficiently disturbed to call him out. I take a pretty skeptical 'two sides to every story' stance on many of these kinds of reports but I can't think of any context given what's happened that this Director's actions toward an employee would be anywhere near appropriate. It is not even close. Unless she is a liar and pulling this out of thin air (and there is no reason I know of to think so) this is a serious breach.
- marak830 12y agoI certainly agree, i just dont like the idea that this sort of comment is never appropriate. Hell ive said something siilar to that to my wife on occasion.
- rdtsc 12y agoThis needs to be investigated quickly. We don't know the details. She forced their hand and they'll have to respond publicly about this. It sounds like a last resort type action after stonewalling and lack of support. If this is true, it is very sickening. Often this is talked about in general terms -- there is sexism, harassment, comments, jokes, etc. out there -- in the "industry". But in this case there is particular person and particular incident that took place. Hopefully this is not ignored. We just recently talked about Adria Richards again (the Pycon incident from a few years back). And one point I was trying to make regarding that incident was that it should have been separated from harassment and discrimination discourse. It was about PR and about a personal agenda. The reason for it, is because if it is isn't, it hurts and diminishes other future sexual harassment allegations -- it reduces them to "she is just probably pulling an Adria on us". Besides the harm caused to all the parties in that controversy, there was a much larger harm, and that is a future harm to cause of preventing and rooting out these horrible things. I have a daughter, and it sickens me that one day should have choose to persue a career with these companies she would have to deal with this kind stuff. And if this is true, I somehow didn't expect this from Google. I could see this happening at an investment firm, at a hospital, at a legal firm but not with Google, which seemingly go out of their way to tell the world how inclusive, and non-discriminantory and not evil they are.
- detcader 12y agoThanks for pointing this out; people will often believe that because someone is telling a story on Twitter, we need not take it seriously. What if the most used internet forums are the only place where some women can air the truth, after trying all other avenues?
- kennywinker 12y ago> It was about PR and about a personal agenda You say this like it's a fact. Did I miss some detail of this incident that came out later?
- rdtsc 12y ago> You say this like it's a fact. Did I miss some detail of this incident that came out later? Yes, the part from the Esquire article revealed a few more things that was disappointing to hear, such as that she notified Hank's (not his real name I understand) employer wanting them to force Hank to remove the part of the HN comment where he said he lost his job. That is significant because it reveals her intentions of turning this into a PR campaign presenting herself as a victim. (Nevermind other references to herself of Joan of Arc). She shouldn't have cared about that part of the comment, but she zoomed in on it, because she realized her game was up -- she wasn't the public victim anymore, people will start sympathizing with Hank from that point on.
- Nursie 12y agoThis seems pretty damn unacceptable. I'm sick of working with overgrown children in our industry, who can't behave like reasonable human beings around women. It's just wrong. I'm also sick of all-male teams put together by male managers who have decided women can't do this work. Grow up. Drop the prejudice. We'll all be better off.
- CyberDildonics 12y agoThose seem like pretty large generalizations for someone telling others to drop prejudice.
- detcader 12y agoAssessing a culture involves "generalizations", and thank goodness we can assess cultural climates. Without "generalizations" we could say nothing about how whites treated blacks post-slavery, as the laws and lynchings would be isolated incidents.
- aminok 12y ago>Without "generalizations" we could say nothing about how whites treated blacks post-slavery Any negative generalization about a non-white group would be characterized as racist, yet you think it's okay to make generalizations about whites.
- detcader 12y agoHistorical record shows many different groups to be acting in self-interest, even if those actions are "negative" -- for an example most people, including yourself hopefully, already understands completely, we can point to the Nazis. I don't believe you are engaging genuinely and honestly. (Full disclosure: I'm a white man)
- Nursie 12y agoI've worked in a dozen or so places in three countries. In my experience it's commonplace. Hence why I expressed that I am sick of it. If you haven't come across this at all then IMHO you're very lucky and perhaps you'd like to share the names of your enlightened employers?
- alsdifu3 12y agoI doubt this is a male/female issue. This manager most likely lacks respect for all people.
- mkaziz 12y agoI would like to hear the man's side of it. Is it bad to ask that? Would I be vilified for not trusting the woman?
- detcader 12y agoI don't know about vilified. I would ask why you don't trust the woman, and do trust the man, given the historical record.
- leereeves 12y agoIs there a historical record?
- detcader 12y agoSure; we can start with the history of male violence against women in all recorded civilizations, and any statistics on male violence against women.
- zo1 12y agoEither way. What we all should be asking is: "Why aren't we considering both sides of this?"
- sridca 12y agoWhy frame all of this in terms of 'trust'? Must you trust either of the genders? Why not look at the facts of the matter? For that, you need to start by looking at both sides of the story instead of taking sides.
- detcader 12y agoThe rich historical record of male violence against women is why.
- tbrownaw 12y agoVery funny. It took less than 5 minutes to confirm that the violence goes the other way at least half the time. It's just not taken as seriously because... well, have you heard the phrase "you hit like a girl"? http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2000-15524-001 http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid... http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/ http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-... https://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+violence+gender+ratio https://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+violence+gender+rat... http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=domestic+violence+gender+ratio http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=domestic+violence+gender...
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- kelukelugames 12y agoJust a couple of links and quotes from the EEOC. TLDR: Harassment at a work retreat is still harassment. One inappropriate comment is usually not enough from a legal point of view. She is protected from retaliation. http://eeoc.gov/laws/practices/index.cfm http://eeoc.gov/laws/practices/index.cfm "Harassment outside of the workplace may also be illegal if there is a link with the workplace. For example, if a supervisor harasses an employee while driving the employee to a meeting." http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm "Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted)." http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm All of the laws we enforce make it illegal to fire, demote, harass, or otherwise “retaliate” against people (applicants or employees) because they filed a charge of discrimination, because they complained to their employer or other covered entity about discrimination on the job, or because they participated in an employment discrimination proceeding (such as an investigation or lawsuit).
- A_COMPUTER 12y agoShe was reprimanded for accusing the person directly, in front of other employees. Huge difference and I can't see the EEOC covering that.
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- eirteep 12y agoIt is pretty amazing that we've taken computing, a field that has traditionally been a refuge of social outcasts, and turned it into an environment where being a tactless creep is outrage worthy.
- rwbcxrz 12y ago> social outcast > tactless creep What does either of these have to do with the other? I don't think social outcast implies tactless creep, and unfortunately, tactless creep clearly doesn't imply social outcast.
- eirteep 12y agoYou're setting up a straw man of equivalence. > I don't think social outcast implies tactless creep Of course, because there is more than one way to lack social skills. > tactless creep clearly doesn't imply social outcast Outcasts go on to form their own organizations (eg Google). Someone can progress to fit in reasonably, but that doesn't mean they're completely normal (in this instance, hitting on someone who is not interested).
- detcader 12y agoA manager at Google abusing a woman and being protected for it is outrage-worthy. Your attempt to frame that reality as less serious is unimpressive.
- eirteep 12y agoI read the tweets before commenting. The only specifics I saw were several verbal remarks (please correct me if I missed something). Framing poor taste compliments as "abuse" is less impressive.
- detcader 12y agoAre you implying that "verbal abuse" is entirely impossible? But verbal abuse is a widely recognized category of abuse in law enforcement and domestic violence support networks around the world. You can see the top-level comment by kelukelugames for more info
- A_COMPUTER 12y agoMaybe companies need to just stop having retreats/events that have all the outward appearance of social gatherings but all the same professionalism rules as the officeplace except for the not wearing a swimsuit to work part.
- detcader 12y agoDo you believe that prohibition of sexual harassment is a "professionalism rule"? Because this would imply that in other areas of everyday life, where professionalism is not relevant, you believe that sexual harassment is/should be permitted.
- A_COMPUTER 12y agoI guess this needs explaining. An employee might sexually harass another employee, for which he or she should be punished. But a company can also be liable for creating conditions which allow sexual harassment to flourish. I am arguing that hosting events that blur the line between work and not-work contribute to sexual harassment. These things are not as black and white as some people on Hacker News think they are. Also, you're begging the question. Outside of a professional setting, telling someone they look good in a bikini being sexual harassment is HIGHLY dependent on context.
- detcader 12y agoDoes "telling someone they look good in a bikini" characterize the situation at hand? I really don't think so. I think it would be hard to categorize social events as potentially creating a bad environment or not. A different solution would be explicit rules for all social events, no? This would be easy to implement.
- A_COMPUTER 12y agoI used that example because it is the lower bounds (in terms of offensiveness) of the claims made by the complainant. She obviously felt it was a problem.
- kzhahou 12y agoPlease don't take this as an excuse for sexual harassment, but: As a manager, I wouldn't go on a beach/bikini/swimsuit trip with my team, and certainly not one with large amounts of alcohol (which wasn't necessarily part of the story posted). So many reasons: * I don't WANT the people who report to me to see my pale un-muscled body. Or the people above me! * I don't want to accidentally glance at someone and make them feel uncomfortable. * I don't want to get so loose and comfortable (cue alcohol) around my team that I forget the role I must play as a leader. I recently declined the opportunity to go on a boat beer bash, just to maintain the proper professional relationship (and these were peers in the org).
- detcader 12y agoI agree. I would have removed myself from the situation.
- geofft 12y agoThere is an excellent argument to be made that the prevalence of alcohol in American work culture is weird and stupid. Partly because it fuels sexual harassment, partly because it pressures people who don't or can't drink, and partly because really, the purpose of alcohol in a social context is to suspend your self-control at least a little bit, why would you want that at work? Relatedly, see also https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture-29ea1546e91d https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture...
- meowface 12y agoNot saying you're right or wrong, but aren't there dozens of cultures across the world where where alcohol plays a much, much bigger role in work culture? The UK and Japan, for example.
- geofft 12y agoYeah, "US" is just what I'm familiar with and what the topic of the story is. I wanted to be precise (because people do rightly criticize folks who complain about US-only culture problems as if they're universal) but was too precise. :)
- the-dude 12y agoIndian
- kelukelugames 12y agoThe comment above is dumb but I see a link here. Part of me is ecstatic that people in India are delivering street justice to rapists. But eventually that vigilantism is going to kill an innocent person. This is analogous to delivering justice via social media.
- the-dude 12y agoAt least 2 of the harassers are of Indian descendant. Mod info oblivion. Thanks.
- detcader 12y agoWho is trying to bring "justice" on social media? All I see is exchanges of knowledge and analysis.
- kelukelugames 12y agoI think "justice" in quotes is a good way to express it. The end result is people have been loosing their jobs over tweets.
- detcader 12y agoI'm curious as to why "tweets" are implied to be any less legitimate of a means for presenting information publicly than letters to a newspaper or something.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- solids 12y ago"anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". Sure...
- thomasahle 12y agoIt's so strange reading this thread. Everybody seems to know each other. I wonder if something like this happened at my workplace, if the discussion would also go public like this..
- im3w1l 12y agoI don't really feel like chasing down and piecing together hundreds of tweets to understand what happened here. Anyone who did it mind giving the whole story?
- leereeves 12y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163769
- mnordhoff 12y agoYou don't really have to chase down hundreds of tweets. Just open up https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok and start scrolling. If you want to go chronologically, the first tweet I see is https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574068442749255680 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574068442749255680 .
- darklajid 12y agoMy favorite? This idiot right here: https://twitter.com/AndrewMDodson https://twitter.com/AndrewMDodson Really. I .. ignore his profile description for now. Read the links to Kelly's tweets and look out for this gem. He's a master of being an asshole, but among lots of peers. If you're in the mood: Get back to the link above, read his self-description and .. cackle. I mean.. What? (I might fall for a troll account, because .. I have a hard time believing that someone is that far removed from reality)
- bigdubs 12y agoNo he's serious and there really are people like him out there.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y agoPlenty of dudes like that in this thread as well.
- foobarqux 12y agoCan someone summarize what is alleged to have happened, including names of those involved? It's a pain to piece together all the fragments of information.
- rasz_pl 12y agoGirl was raped by "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star," sentence.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- letstryagain 12y agoFeminist gets angry every time someone compliments her.
- chuckup 12y agoShe then added "full disclosure. I'm not proud, I poured a drink on him. It became about that." http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-google-engineer-claims-she-was-sexually-harassed-google-did-nothing-about-it http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-google-e...
- leereeves 12y agoSome of the more significant tweets: " At Google I was sexually harassed by someone who was later promoted to director I was put in a position where I couldn't be promoted because it would've meant reporting to my harasser I was actually reprimanded for undermining him in front of his reports. Google caring about women is 100% lip service PR bullshit. When it comes down to it, they punish victims and reward the perpetrators. COME AT ME BRO People above his level knew; reprimanded me instead of him. ... Full disclosure. I'm not proud. I poured a drink on him. It became about that Things other women have said to me: "he is a legal liability for Google" They 100% supported him, let me be in a position where I couldn't be promoted. My career was ended in that moment. Yet I got in trouble ... [name redacted] is an engineering director at Google, he sexually harassed me, Google did nothing about it. Reprimanded me instead of him ... TBH [different name redacted] has always been a creep and a half too. This will surprise no one who's worked with him. Thanks for all the bathing suit compliments over the years, [name]. ... "It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now." -My boss's boss, to me, when I was a junior eng at Google. "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." - [name redacted], to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui. Drinks after work with powerful men. Being the only woman there. Feeling uncomfortable with what some of them were saying. Crying about it. Not wanting to say anything because having those social relationships were helpful to me, my visibility, my career. It's such a boys' club. ... "He feels like you humiliated him in front of his reports." Something HR actually fucking said to me. ... Of course, whenever anyone said something that made me uncomfortable, I had to laugh it off. None of this is stuff I ever talked to HR about ... [name redacted] to [name redacted] within earshot of me, on a boat in Maui: "doesn't Kelly look amazing heh heh" ... After hours, having drinks with Vic and the gang. Vic talking about how G+ was promoting Sasha Grey. Starts talking about how hot she is. Asks if people've seen her movies. At this point I run away and cry because I felt so outcast. This is just one example of many The harassment "training" at Goog? Mostly about not getting in trouble. Nothing about respecting humanity of your peers. "
- letstryagain 12y ago> "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." eh? Is this harassment now? Honest question, I really don't see how this is anything but a compliment.
- nperez 12y agoNOT a good sign when his Google+ profile publicly contains photos like this (NSFW): https://plus.google.com/+RoderickChavez/photos/photo/5184662201460305938?pid=5184662201460305938&oid=102273535472013532291 https://plus.google.com/+RoderickChavez/photos/photo/5184662... Definitely a creeper.
- tbrownaw 12y agoDepends. If that's a random coworker who wasn't expecting that, then yeah. If it's... say... an S/O he's doing home improvement projects with (the impression I get from the rest of the album it's in), not so much. Of course, you'd think someone working at Google would have a better understanding of how the G+ privacy settings work (and of the dangerous capriciousness of the Internet)...
- nperez 12y agoTrue, the content itself isn't necessarily malicious in nature, but the way you present yourself publicly says a lot about your personality (or at least, how I will perceive it). I didn't consider the possibility that maybe he doesn't understand privacy settings, which would be pretty odd for a director of engineering.
- thret 12y agoI kept thinking there was more to this story, but this article makes it plain that there isn't: http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-google-engineer-claims-she-was-sexually-harassed-google-did-nothing-about-it http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/03/07/former-google-e... Lines that you use on women in clubs should not be used with co-workers. That's the lesson here basically. I doubt either of those guys had any inkling they were causing emotional trauma.
- cpncrunch 12y agoAlso, it sounds like Google might have screwed up in their handling of the situation. The guy should have gotten some kind of reprimand. I suspect the current Google employees won't be happy about how this has been handled, and will force management to do something. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an internal investigation. If Google HR had handled this properly in the first place, Kelly would still be working there, everyone would be happy, and this would never have become a news story.
- Bahamut 12y agoIf they didn't have any idea, they should not be in any sort of management position.
- cvs268 12y agoOff-topic: Going over the 100 or so comments over the pas 30mins was dare i say entertaining. It took me a few mins of self-reflection after i finished reading this on HN and thought - Why am i feeling happy after reading this? This discussion has all the elements of a hit reality tv show. A victim, an aggressor, opinion extremists on either side, moderators on the fence. I despise reality tv shows and make it a point not to watch them or read about the latest "incident" on show X etc. Now i cannot stop feeling that reading this discussion has broken my >1year-long streak of avoiding reality shows.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- detcader 12y agoBelieving women about male violence they have experience is not "extreme", given the historical record and the facts of statistics. I would say that you know this already.
- droopyEyelids 12y agoDid she tell him that she was not interested and ask him to stop first? This is the most vital information and it is missing.
- detcader 12y agoIt's not vital, it's irrelevant entirely. She is not to blame for failing to stop his pattern of actions. If you don't understand this you can websearch "Victim-blaming" and you will find a lot of material to read.
- droopyEyelids 12y agoIt is vital. If you don't tell someone that you don't like something, they can't realistically be expected to know. Someone has to receive that message before the behavior can be interpreted as shitty flirting or harassment.
- lkbm 12y agoIt's pretty clear that there are things that are are okay until I'm told to stop, and there are other things that are inappropriate until I'm told it's okay. A lot of us consider telling a coworker "It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now" falls under the latter category.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago> Why didn't you back me up? Because there are no witnesses and no other proofs for the wild allegations you make against your former employer after being fired. Fight the "patriarchy" some other way. Preferably without making shit up.
- zobzu 12y agoYou know the problem with these claims is that you never know what actually happened. I find that quite often these threads just reinforce the hate and blindness in people - it doesn't fix anything. You get called out for kindly offering a woman coffee when you're making yours at the machine. Offering it to a man is ok. Being a woman offering it to a man, the man will looked at as if he's manipulated her to do that. That's fucked up. This is very bay-area specific, and it's quite toxic. When you see something that is obviously wrong, or know the facts, do act. Make it stop. When you don't, be curious - instead of hating with passion. Remember that people are actually innocent until proven guilty. Even if it's cool to hate (specially white males). Otherwise, it destroys you and the very things you're fighting for. Every single time.
- detcader 12y agoI believe her, which means I believe I know what happened. It is you who is electing to entertain the possibility that she is lying.
- zobzu 12y agoYou believe. And that's exactly why people died for principles such as innocent until proven guilty. Regardless of the cause. Heck, if people didn't believe stuff at random we'd have far less wars.
- naturalrecursin 12y agoYou are acting like a fool through-out these comments. I get the feeling that you are projecting your own women hating feelings onto everyone else. If your reason for "believing" someone is only their gender then you sir are sexist.
- jheriko 12y agoWhy do you need back up? Why couldn't you deal with it at the time? Its a shame perhaps that men and women are not typically given the same upbringing, or have the same natural tendencies, when it comes to confrontation. Not doing anything about it at the time, then moaning about it after the fact, as a man, is social suicide - its cowardly and makes you look weak. As a woman these same behaviours are lauded as self control and intelligence - and the opposite, as being reactionary and thoughtless. You may be labelled as bossy, a control freak or worse... Neither of these attitudes is quite right... however I do think that people need to stick up for themselves. Don't expect any back up and fight your own corner... but then I am a man, and this is our default attitude. 'being a man' very much means being strong, independent, self-reliant and unassailable... without asking for attention or rewards for doing so. I'm not sure why women shouldn't be encouraged to do the same - these are imo objectively good properties of a successful human being, regardless of gender.
- detcader 12y ago>"Not doing anything about it at the time" For starters, were you there when the events were taking place?
- jheriko 12y agogood point. i just assume this based on the moaning happening after the fact...
- detcader 12y agoWhy do you use the word "moaning"?
- jheriko 12y ago> Ellis recognized that the proper channels were stacked against her, clearly. My experience makes this very hard to believe. If that is the case then that should be the topic of complaint, not the individual's actions, and especially in a way so lacking in context and detail. In the context of the workplace this sort of behaviour is bad, not just for the individual, but for the company. I find it very hard to believe that Google would do nothing about it. of course this is just belief. If they are willing to act in support of this kind of inappropriate behaviour then the company should quite rightly get a slamming for it... Part of modern society is not taking the law into your own hands, whether that is giving someone a whack for being a jerk, or making a big public stink about it. I find it very hard to see this as being any better than punching someone in the face because you don't like their attitude.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- detcader 12y ago>does she realize this guy's personnal and professional life are ruined forever? She's an adult, so I would say yes. I would say that she has accepted that as a thing that will happen. I think publicly shaming someone like this man for any sort of repeated harassment, including sexual, is not negative, as you imply it to be.
- dogma1138 12y agoSince when did Twitter became the platform the lunge civil or criminal complaints against some one? When you use "social media" in such manner there is only one goal for this and it's to turn the media fed sheep herd into the judge, jury and executioner. If any one is harassed at work make a complaint with HR, they don't do shit, then escalate it to which ever authority manages this in the state (and I'm 100% sure there is one even tho it's not the "civilized union of socialists states" AKA Europe). If that doesn't work and you feel like you are being derailed sue them, I'm pretty sure that there will be a 1000 lawyers willing to take your case for a chance of a payout a tech giant of the scale of Google will have to cough out even if the complaint is completely bogus. However I have no sympathy for people who use these types of platforms to settle disputes or to report wrong doing even in such cases in which they were actually harassed. I do hope she, and any one else man, woman, or other that uses such tactics to get what they want gets fired. But heck as long as we using verbatim - "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." rock on "bitch"!
- detcader 12y agoTwitter in this case is being used as a platform to make information public, as letters (including anonymous ones) to newspapers for hundreds of years. I don't see the difference that makes one less legitimate than the other, could you explain it? If you can do so with slurring women further perhaps.
- dogma1138 12y agoI don't see sending letters to a newspaper any better in such circumstances. An accused has a right to face their accuser, this should be done in court or in case of such disputes in a disciplinary hearing. In such cases in which the public actually has the right to know there might be some merit of using the media to pursue such action when all other avenues have been exhausted. However when you do use proper media (which is an oxymoron of some sorts today) you gain something very important, an "unbiased" journalistic view of the events which can judge if the case is of an sufficient interest to the public and if it is they can investigate the events on their own and publish their findings. Calling some one on twitter is libel pure and simple, true or not it doesn't matter.
- powertower 12y agoOn her twitter page she describes herself as: Kelly Ellis - "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." I'd really like to know the context of the quoted "harassment" statement, if this was at work or during drinks afterwards, if it was a badly timed joke, a badly worded praise for fixing an issue, if this just happened once, or multiple times. And the reason for making this public... Before I start publicly crucifying anyone and removing them from all future gainful employment. Harassment is repetitive pressure or intimidation. Not a once off joke made by a person because he though they where getting together well and he brought down his guard for a second.
- bsaul 12y agoHad the exact same reaction, but you've got to read the whole twitter stream to realize that this is maybe a global management issue, and not just one guy. She did complain to her bosses, that did nothing, and the guy clearly isn't the only one to make those kind of remarks in the company.
- powertower 12y agoFrom what I've been able to put together, she posted all the instances of the alleged "harassment", which consists of the quoted comment, and this one (made by another Google employee) - "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." It also seems like both statements where made years apart, and possibly happened after work. And one of the accused persons already has made the statement that he had little to no contact with her aside from being in the same org.
- bsaul 12y agoIt seemed to me like a general atmosphere very male oriented, which she felt very akward with ( eg the comment about the pornstar). But the fact that she complained to HR and that as a consequence she ended up feeling like she had to leave makes me think there could be an issue. Although as a european, of course all of this debate seems very American ( except maybe the ass grabbing part, which could only have been excused if under influence).
- jqm 12y agoThis guy sounds like a major league twerp. And frankly, reading Kelley's twitter profile, so does she. I would look into this to determine who I thought was more at fault, but really, twerp soap operas aren't my thing. I don't know which I dislike more. Guys that act like asshats, or ladies that put up with it as long as they think it's getting them somewhere then scream bloody murder when it isn't anymore. Or maybe articles written about the subject. Or comments taking the sides of any one particular twerp. It's a toss up I guess.
- kurtisan 12y agoI'm glad that Kelly Ellis chose to include a direct quote from Rod Chavez. Without any additional context, it definitely looks very harassing, and he should be fired for it. That said, some of the stuff she's written in the past is over-the-top radical (from https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47c18 https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47...): If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple. You are threatening. And you need to leave me the fuck alone. I hope this isn't another Adria Richards, Virginia Tech, or Duke Lacrosse situation. I wouldn't necessarily characterize what Vic Gundotra said as harassing, either the compliment or the Sasha Grey comment. Sasha Grey was absolutely hot-as-in-buzz, which would be relevant to someone working on Google+. I'd like to hear the other side of the story before stoning these guys, given the propensity some women have for playing up their victim status to self-promote in the media. That Kelly characterizes herself as a "bitch software engineer, doing what I can to smash the patriarcy", really drives this home. It would be a shame if these men's careers are destroyed for anything less than a whole-truth. Kelly certainly seems predisposed to view any slight as the result of her gender, and any comment that could be construed inappropriate as inappropriate. It would be a true tragedy if men disengaged from female peers and reports out of a fear of career destruction, even from the smallest gaffe, in the same way that many have shied away from interacting with children.
- bhayden 12y agoI don't think a desire to be left alone is radical. Most women desire this, they don't want strangers coming up and talking to them when they're stuck on a train/bus where there's no option to leave. A simple "hi" is the limit of social interaction you should try to push on a stranger in this situation.
- mekoka 12y agoI've heard women complaining for the exact opposite. Men not brave enough to engage with them casually. I guess it depends if the man looks like George Clooney.
- aceperry 12y agoI would love to be a fly on the wall to see how this discussion is taking place at Google. This is especially relevant now that Google is hosting a Women Techmakers event for International Women's Day.
- fred_is_fred 12y agoI want to make this very very clear to everyone, especially young coders new to the corporate world. HR is not there to protect you. They are there to protect the company. And in 99.9% of the cases they will always support the ones higher up in the corporate structure, managers, and especially senior VPs. Does that excuse all this? Certainly not, but I'm completely unsurprised that HR didn't do anything about this.
- njloof 12y agoSounds to me like HR did not even protect the company here.
- jpgvm 12y agoThe only thing I have learnt from this and the Adria Richards nonsense is when I am hiring I will screen for radical feminism. Too risky to hire, even if I feel my workplace shouldn't have anything that would set them off it's still too risky.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- zo1 12y agoIt's an unfortunate side-effect of there being so few women in tech. You're semi-forced into hiring potentially toxic personalities so you can keep up your 'quota'.