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I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunat

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority, and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened all while watching a talk on inclusiveness. While the emotional image of a little girl wanting to get into your field is up on screen. And then to have everyone defend that person and behave like you're the one that fired him just because you voiced your discomfort publicly. I don't agree with Adria's public tweet, and Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it. But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it. From that article it sounds like she came out of this worse than Hank, who got another job almost immediately. And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article? Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria. I'm sure she knows it.

bobcostas55 12y ago
What is threatening about that joke?
- interpol_p 12y ago
  That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I believe she actually felt like this. And that it is possible for women to feel this way at a conference heavily dominated by men. But we are oblivious to it, we can't even imagine how it feels.
  - slowmotiony 12y ago
    Sometimes I can't believe what I am reading here on hacker news.
  - tomp 12y ago
    Of course it's possible for women to feel this way. It's possible for men to feel this way as well. That doesn't make it reasonable, or something an emotionally mature person would feel and act upon.
    - briandear 12y ago
      Bingo! Her feeling of 'danger' was irrational unless there have been a wave of sexual assaults at developer conferences that I'm unaware of. She has no control over being offended or not, but she does have the ability to control her reactions to such offense. If it really bothered her why not just tell the guys, hey can you please not use that sort of humor around me?
      - DanBC 12y ago
        It's frustrating to hear a bunch of white men who normally stick around groups of other white men talk about how someone who is very different - black, female, Jewish - is silly for feeling threat in situations where white men don't feel threat. When people of your racial/religious group are murdered and attacked and harassed (and anti-Semitism is still a thing) her perception of threat is no doubt heightened. It's unreasonable to expect her to confront people making dumb jokes if she feels threatened by them. (However, her actions are not acceptable. She could have sought out conference organisers and told them.)
        maxerickson 12y ago
        It's also bizarre. The interesting thing that happened: A bilious internet mob. The thing being discussed: The legitimacy of an individual's mental state. Not even the reasonableness of their reaction to the mental state, the mental state itself. I can certainly empathize with feeling fear that I am perfectly aware is irrational, looking at pictures of people up high makes me queasy and I stop looking before I break into a cold sweat. Pictures!
- briandear 12y ago
  Nothing. Maybe she was offended, I can't speak for her, however there's no such thing as a right not to be offended. Her racist sanctimonious posturing is disgusting. We have real issues of race and gender in the US, but this? This woman is why guys like me tend to simply not care that much about these issues. There are too many people who make it their mission to be offended just so they can get back at the 'man.' As far as Sendgrid, I would bet money that this woman wasn't fired exclusively because of a DDoS ransom. She likely was a pain in the ass because I'm certain working around her in a constant state of eggshell walking. Anyone have her Github? Is she even any good? I would expect with the size of the chip on her shoulder it would be difficult to work. I don't know her but her issues seem to be deeply psychological. I would be afraid to work anywhere near her brand of hatred. Ironically, according to the article, she posted a penis joke. The gent in the store merely used a puerile entendre and she flips out? I suggest that she seek professional help.
  - rmxt 12y ago
    Do we really need to judge the quality of her code in order to evaluate her point of view? One doesn't have to agree with how she continues to handle things, or take offense at the joke oneself, in order to perceive that another might have different thoughts about it. I think that the whole ordeal is/was overblown, but to come away from this article merely thinking that she's racist and sanctimonious (I'll agree a bit with the latter) is missing an opportunity for critical self-evaluation. Getting riled up at her reaction ("bet money", "pain in the ass") does nothing to deepen mutual understanding in the workplace. Seeking out and lambasting those that make it their mission to get back at the "man" is an "eye for and eye" -- I think we've come a bit further than that in 4000 years. Also, for one that says "I can't speak for her" and "I don't know her," you seem quite willing to go all out to discredit her as being the stereotypical irrational woman. [1] She herself isn't necessarily present in the discussion. What is the point in eviscerating her as you've done? Playing armchair psychologist does nothing to make workplace interactions better. This whole situation seems like a great place, at the unfortunate expense of Hank and Adria, for the tech industry to meet in the middle between "making dongle jokes is cool, get over it" and "the white-male hegemony needs to be dismantled." [1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman
mercurial 12y ago
> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet, and Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it. But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it. She used her status and influence in an irresponsible way, and she consistently avoids any responsibility into what happens, while blaming her victim for what happened to her. I don't see the empathy here. I can understand why she would end up like that, and she sounds like she has a lot of issues to work with. But she comes out as an extremely unpleasant person. > From that article it sounds like she came out of this worse than Hank, who got another job almost immediately. And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article? Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria. I'm sure she knows it. I feel for her. She shouldn't have been put through this crap when she was a kid, and she deserved none of the abuse, death threats, etc, that got poured on her. At the same time, I do think she needs to behave like an adult and realize that she has a responsibility in what happened.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  > I do think she needs to behave like an adult and realize that she has a responsibility in what happened. Presumably you mean the tweet, not her childhood abuse, just for people who might misinterpret the somewhat ambiguous reference.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    Yes, the tweet. I hadn't realized the ambiguity.
- hderms 12y ago
  She probably didn't get another job because she's in the field of 'developer evangelism' and publicly skewered a developer without giving appropriate thought to the consequences of her actions. I think that might be an indication to employers that she might not be an appropriate candidate for the position of 'developer evangelist' unless they're willing to take on the risk associated for the benefit provided.
byuu 12y ago
> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilities were offended over a crass joke. And now she's engaging in histrionics after the fact to justify her response. Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of the pervasive image in America that all men are rapists and child molesters. You talk to a woman on an elevator, or you accidentally make eye contact with a child that isn't yours for a brief second, and everyone assumes you're a sexual predator because penis. Sure, I'll accept that men are more likely to be. But we're talking about 0.000011% of women versus 0.000018% of men here. > Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it That we can both agree on. If anyone needs to be shamed here, it's these companies that we allow to put expediency over human lives. It's not okay to fire a father of three because someone managed to generate five minutes of buzz about them on Twitter. As consumers, this is partly our responsibility. And I for one will recommend strongly against ever using SendGrid to anyone who asks. It's too bad Hank didn't name his employer as well. > Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy, along with playing the race card (way out of context I might add), is clearly doing her no good here. If I read her comments, I wouldn't hire her either. And again, this is where it's good to separate your real name from your online identity. No, we shouldn't have to, but when employers behave like this, it's just proper diligence. We don't know Hank's real name here; his current employer may not even know about this incident. If Adria had done the same, maybe she'd be employed now too.
- interpol_p 12y ago
  > I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. I've tried to read this article as Hank and Adria explaining their honest feelings. If Adria is being honest about her feelings, then I can see how her reaction came about. Even if I don't agree with it. Like I said, I don't think the joke itself — or Hank himself — was the target of her anger. It was the environment, the culture, and the system which allowed Hank to make such a joke in earshot, comfortably, making her feel utterly excluded and even threatened. You claim it's histrionics, but it might be real things she is feeling. What if she really felt this way? Shouldn't we try to understand Adria as well as we understand Hank? By dismissing her so easily we make our field more exclusive. We say, "I can't imagine that so you mustn't have experienced it. It's not a problem because I can't see it." > Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy. I don't think it's because she hates Hank and wishes bad things on him. I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage.
hitekker 12y ago
"But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it." You can understand, yes, but that hatred-- and allow me to say that again-- hatred is not something that we can excuse on the basis of race alone. Adria really hates Hank; hated him so much that when she called down the twitter brigades, she happily tweeted something along the lines of "I feel like Joan Of Arc." Hank found a new job because, fundamentally, he was innocent. Because he did not intend for anyone to get hurt, and did not join in the bandwagon that later attacked Adria. He even apologized to Adria, who still blames him for everything and showed absolutely no remorse. Some believe that systems of oppression don't exist and pin everything on the individual, e.g., racists. And then there are people who believe those systems are all that exist and that any action undertaken by a member of that system is the fault of the system, e.g. other kinds of racists. Regardless of where you stand on the spectrum, there are certain actions that are inexcusable. The intent and desire to destroy an innocent's life is one of them.
- interpol_p 12y ago
  See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side." She doesn't really acknowledge him because it's not about him. We've made it about him because it's so easy for us to empathise with Hank but not with her, which is exactly part of the bias she's upset about.
  - JimmyM 12y ago
    > Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side. I think Ronson strongly suggests that this is in fact the case. Ronson's a great journalist for acknowledging the complexity of a situation without attempting to offer answers he's unqualified to give, imho. > “So you’re in your new workplace…” (Hank was offered another job right away) “…and you’re talking to a female developer. In what way do you act differently towards her?” > “Well,” Hank said. “We don’t have any female developers at the place I’m working at now. So.” > “You’ve got a new job now, right?” I said to Adria. > “No,” she said. Incidentally thank you for all your comments on this article. They're really thoughtful and have helped me understand what is clearly a very big issue much better.
andy_ppp 12y ago
You can't on the one hand argue that offending people in a public environment is wrong by yourself making a very public complaint to the whole world...
sspiff 12y ago
What Adria did was not OK. She could have addressed Hank and his friend, and talked to them. Tell them she overheard and it was offensive to her. Engage in discourse. Educate them about how their remarks come across. Instead, she chose to deny them the right of any defense, and publicly shamed them on the Internet, including their picture. And somehow, this is supposed to be OK? Why? Because she's part of certain minorities, as she's so keen to point out (jewish, black)? Because of her gender? If a "white male" had done anything like this, how do you think the world would have reacted? He would have been labeled as a "hacker", "doxing" an innocent and defenseless minority member and as opening the flood gates for anonymous online assault and abuse. Obviously, what happened in retaliation by the anonymous legions of idiots on the Internet is terrible and even worse than what happened to Hank, and she certainly didn't deserve anything like this. I realize this is a publication targeted towards a male audience, and it is clearly coloured to favour Hank's side in this. But if the depiction of Adria in this article is even close to genuine, I have a very hard time feeling bad for her. Some of her quotes are just out of this world, and often based on nothing but conjecture: - Quote: "Maybe it was [Hank] who started all of this. No one would have known he got fired until he complained. Maybe he’s to blame for complaining that he got fired. Maybe he secretly seeded the hate groups." - Without giving any kind of tentative evidence, she's accusing him of funding hate groups, and downplaying her fault in his bad fortunes. - She claims she feared for her life after hearing Hank make a silly forking joke. In a crowded audience, she thought he was going to kill her, right there. What the hell is that about? - Quote: "Hank’s actions resulted in him getting fired, yet he framed it in a way to blame me. If I had two kids, I wouldn’t tell ‘jokes’" - Seriously, if every father who ever told a mate a poor joke with some sexual innuendo were to get fired, we'd all be out of a job. Let him who is without sin throw the first stone. - She snarkily claims that Hank is devoid of sympathy or empathy towards other human beings, while ironically being incapable herself of empathizing with his plight. She just goes on to repeat that all of this is his fault, including both of them losing their job, and all the threats she has received. - It also sounds (especially at the end) like she blames him personally for being born into an unfair world, where he was born with more privilege and opportunity than her, but that's bringing us a bit to far off topic.
BSousa 12y ago
I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved (edit: being fired not the harassement), but not Adria. She posted the tweet WITH the photo. She started this. She (if I remember correctly) was some PR/evangelist in the company. What she did was exactly the opposite. I could understand if she tweeted about 'two men' making those jokes/whatnot and complain about it, BUT without a picture. With it, I honestly believe she got off easy... If it was me (regarding of it being a joke that was taken out of context or not), posting my picture like that would make me try and do everything to get damages from her, and her employer if she was there in any official capacity. I believe we should be inclusive of women in tech in all capabilities, and even admit it was an unfortunate joke, which I probably wouldn't make in that scenario, but what she did was actually a set back to the 'women in tech' movement. She was selfish and after the whole mess, still unapologetic. I'm sorry to say, but I'm pretty sure this brought even more doubts to folks wanting to hire women in their companies, let they now get another Adria.
- TuringTest 12y ago
  > I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved, but not Adria. From the article: > Someone sent Adria a photograph of a beheaded woman with tape over her mouth. Adria’s face was superimposed onto the bodies of porn actors. Websites were created to teach people how to make the superimposing look seamless — by matching skin-tones. On Facebook someone wrote, “I hope I can find Adria, kidnap her, put a torture bag over her head, and shoot a .22 subsonic round right into her fucking skull. Fuck that bitch, make her pay, make her obey. See my previous post about proportionate response; this ain't it. Even if Adria is not making herself a likable person, by shaming Hank in public and failing to accept any blame for the backlash, this is not something that she deserved because of that.
  - mreiland 12y ago
    deserved is maybe not the right word for it, but I certainly feel no empathy for her. She made her decision, she went on her crusade and she got the obvious result. Not the result she wanted, but the obvious result regardless.
  - BSousa 12y ago
zamalek 12y ago
> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet Turning around and asking them to stop would have been enough. If they didn't (by shrugging her off, or laughing at her request, or whatever) that would have been grounds to publicly shame them. It doesn't matter who got off easier or worse. There could be a million reasons why Adria didn't get another job: the male-dominated industry is one. Here's a personal challenge, which of these would you hire: * A female registered sex offender. * A male who avoids tackling problems head-on and instead appeals to authority in order to get those problems removed. I don't see a gender issue here, I do however see excuse and justification issues. Things still work out the same way in the end if you switch the genders around.
- ryan-c 12y ago
  "registered sex offender" is pretty meaningless without context - in some states getting caught peeing in a bush after a night of drinking in college can result in that label.
  - zamalek 12y ago
    I was going for the "worst" kind. Not everyone might agree with me, but I honestly don't see a severe offender as an impediment to being able to get a project done and would happily hire one.
tw04 12y ago
Yet she didn't think it was a big deal to make penis jokes herself. She's a hypocrite, plain and simple. And the way she acted in the post-interview appears to indicate she thinks it's OK for her to try to publicly shame people just to make a spectacle. Even when she's guilty of the exact. same. shit.
e40 12y ago
and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened I can understand angry, but not threatened. None of the comments I heard come close to a threat and everyone involved admits they weren't directed at her.
copsarebastards 12y ago
> But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority, and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened all while watching a talk on inclusiveness. There are tons of cases where people have been made to feel uncomfortable by their peers in the software industry because of their race and/or sex. Racism and sexism are definitely problems in the software industry. But this specific case is just ridiculous. Look at the actual jokes involved. "That hardware has a really big dongle"? "I would fork that guy's repo"? The butts of these jokes were a fictional piece of hardware and a (probably white) male, respectively. There's nothing in those jokes that could logically lead a woman to believe that the jokers would cause her harm. Just because a joke is sexual doesn't mean it's sexist. This wasn't even an overreaction: it was a reaction to something that wasn't sexist. Internet feminism is a particularly poor representation of modern feminist thought. Most modern feminists say that women are just as sexual as men, and that women don't express their sexuality because of social pressure--an assertion which is gaining some scientific evidence. Ironically, Adria is enforcing a stereotype that anything sexual is anti-female. From that perspective, Adria's actions are the sexist ones, not Hank's. I agree that both Adria and Hank got worse than they deserved in this situation. Certainly losing their jobs is too much, and nobody should ever have to experience death threats. But I find it a lot harder to be sympathetic to Adria in this case. If I were her employer I'd definitely be having doubts. If my engineers are making sexist comments I will fire them, but someone who accuses people of making sexist comments when they aren't making sexist comments is a liability. Of course, there may be more to this story we don't know. Maybe Hank made some other jokes that were actually sexist.
rdtsc 12y ago
I don't agree with framing this as men vs women. And your post does it quite a bit. > But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority No. It is a programming conference. It is not a forced place to be, it is not torture, it a programming conference. Framing this as some kind of a jungle full of dangers, rapists and murders lurking behind their little laptops, wearing geeky t-shirts is a bit crazy. There are real inappropriate comments, sexual innuendos, harassment, both in the workplace and during conferences but this wasn't it. By blowing this up she is fighting against her own cause because it diminishes the importance and impact of those things. It brings them down to the level of "oh crazy irrationality, and overreacting" which is the typical excuse for dismissing them. Next time someone is really harassed, the offender can just say "Oh she is pulling an Aria on me" or something to that effect. > — that she should not have to apologise for it. Yes she should have. Everyone expected Hank to apologize And he did. Not expecting her to apologies further excusing her lack of empathy is discriminatory and sexist. > And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article? I don't wonder. I am quite sure he got a job because others realized he was a decent person, who said a stupid thing, made a mistake, apologized for it. A person you want working for you. It wasn't because he had a penis or because he was white. Adria on the other hand showed her character and her character is not one I would want on my team. She is manipulative, lacks empathy, likes controversy, and promotes discrimination and sexism.
- interpol_p 12y ago
  > I don't agree with framing this as men vs women. It's not my intention to frame it this way. Sorry for giving you that impression. My intention is to frame this as an invisible problem to us as men. My intention is to try to help people reflect on why they are so quick to anger about Adria, but realise they are perhaps not seeing a bigger problem. I say this as someone who initially had similar angry reactions and then took a step back and tried to place myself in her shoes. > No. It is a programming conference. It is not a forced place to be, it is not torture, it a programming conference. Framing this as some kind of a jungle full of dangers, rapists and murders lurking behind their little laptops, wearing geeky t-shirts is a bit crazy. I'm not framing it like that. That may not stop PyCon from feeling like that for women. Let's say there are women who feel unsafe at PyCon. Shouldn't we be concerned about this? Shouldn't we communicate them and try to figure out how we can include them? Most of what I see in this thread moves to dismiss such women as delusional, because obviously PyCon is not full of rapists, it doesn't matter what women feel, they should get over it. > Yes she should have. I think you are taking my quote out of context. I'm not saying she should or shouldn't apologise. I was trying to explain how I could understand, after all that's happened, why she wouldn't feel the need to. We have made this all about Hank. Probably because it's easy for us to get in his head. But I don't think she sees Hank as a very important figure in her experience of this situation so far. Hank was an oblivious and unfortunate side effect of the exclusion she felt at the conference. > It wasn't because he had a penis or because he was white. Software is a male dominated field right now. It is so easy for men who read this article to be angry at Adria and feel sorry for Hank. Just look at the reactions in this thread. That alone gives him a great chance of regaining employment. I'm sure the original HN thread had some guys saying "get in touch, we'll give you a job!" > Adria on the other hand showed her character and her character is not one I would want on my team. She is manipulative, lacks empathy, likes controversy, and promotes discrimination and sexism. You've twisted her into a monster in your own head. I wish I could convince you to step back from your feelings for a while, try not to let anger cloud your judgment. I think she was a pretty reasonable person who did something a bit thoughtless out of emotion. It blew up, the employers made terrible decisions, and everyone blamed her. My entire point in this thread has been that we should examine what makes our field so threatening to women. It's the death by a thousand paper cuts thing — women face so many tiny challenges that seem innocuous on their own, and we are oblivious to all of them. And instead of deciding to show understanding when situations like this arise, we show blame and demonise the real people involved.
amalag 12y ago
As for getting a new job. Adria was in a public relations role. Any future employer would have to be comfortable with the way she handled herself. Especially since she is not apologetic for it. Hank made a crude joke that was overheard, pretty much the extent of his wrongdoings.

bobcostas55 12y ago

What is threatening about that joke?

interpol_p 12y ago
That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I believe she actually felt like this. And that it is possible for women to feel this way at a conference heavily dominated by men. But we are oblivious to it, we can't even imagine how it feels.
- slowmotiony 12y ago
  Sometimes I can't believe what I am reading here on hacker news.
- tomp 12y ago
  Of course it's possible for women to feel this way. It's possible for men to feel this way as well. That doesn't make it reasonable, or something an emotionally mature person would feel and act upon.
  - briandear 12y ago
    Bingo! Her feeling of 'danger' was irrational unless there have been a wave of sexual assaults at developer conferences that I'm unaware of. She has no control over being offended or not, but she does have the ability to control her reactions to such offense. If it really bothered her why not just tell the guys, hey can you please not use that sort of humor around me?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      It's frustrating to hear a bunch of white men who normally stick around groups of other white men talk about how someone who is very different - black, female, Jewish - is silly for feeling threat in situations where white men don't feel threat. When people of your racial/religious group are murdered and attacked and harassed (and anti-Semitism is still a thing) her perception of threat is no doubt heightened. It's unreasonable to expect her to confront people making dumb jokes if she feels threatened by them. (However, her actions are not acceptable. She could have sought out conference organisers and told them.)
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        It's also bizarre. The interesting thing that happened: A bilious internet mob. The thing being discussed: The legitimacy of an individual's mental state. Not even the reasonableness of their reaction to the mental state, the mental state itself. I can certainly empathize with feeling fear that I am perfectly aware is irrational, looking at pictures of people up high makes me queasy and I stop looking before I break into a cold sweat. Pictures!
briandear 12y ago
Nothing. Maybe she was offended, I can't speak for her, however there's no such thing as a right not to be offended. Her racist sanctimonious posturing is disgusting. We have real issues of race and gender in the US, but this? This woman is why guys like me tend to simply not care that much about these issues. There are too many people who make it their mission to be offended just so they can get back at the 'man.' As far as Sendgrid, I would bet money that this woman wasn't fired exclusively because of a DDoS ransom. She likely was a pain in the ass because I'm certain working around her in a constant state of eggshell walking. Anyone have her Github? Is she even any good? I would expect with the size of the chip on her shoulder it would be difficult to work. I don't know her but her issues seem to be deeply psychological. I would be afraid to work anywhere near her brand of hatred. Ironically, according to the article, she posted a penis joke. The gent in the store merely used a puerile entendre and she flips out? I suggest that she seek professional help.
- rmxt 12y ago
  Do we really need to judge the quality of her code in order to evaluate her point of view? One doesn't have to agree with how she continues to handle things, or take offense at the joke oneself, in order to perceive that another might have different thoughts about it. I think that the whole ordeal is/was overblown, but to come away from this article merely thinking that she's racist and sanctimonious (I'll agree a bit with the latter) is missing an opportunity for critical self-evaluation. Getting riled up at her reaction ("bet money", "pain in the ass") does nothing to deepen mutual understanding in the workplace. Seeking out and lambasting those that make it their mission to get back at the "man" is an "eye for and eye" -- I think we've come a bit further than that in 4000 years. Also, for one that says "I can't speak for her" and "I don't know her," you seem quite willing to go all out to discredit her as being the stereotypical irrational woman. [1] She herself isn't necessarily present in the discussion. What is the point in eviscerating her as you've done? Playing armchair psychologist does nothing to make workplace interactions better. This whole situation seems like a great place, at the unfortunate expense of Hank and Adria, for the tech industry to meet in the middle between "making dongle jokes is cool, get over it" and "the white-male hegemony needs to be dismantled." [1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman

mercurial 12y ago

> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet, and Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it. But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it. She used her status and influence in an irresponsible way, and she consistently avoids any responsibility into what happens, while blaming her victim for what happened to her. I don't see the empathy here. I can understand why she would end up like that, and she sounds like she has a lot of issues to work with. But she comes out as an extremely unpleasant person. > From that article it sounds like she came out of this worse than Hank, who got another job almost immediately. And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article? Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria. I'm sure she knows it. I feel for her. She shouldn't have been put through this crap when she was a kid, and she deserved none of the abuse, death threats, etc, that got poured on her. At the same time, I do think she needs to behave like an adult and realize that she has a responsibility in what happened.

StavrosK 12y ago
> I do think she needs to behave like an adult and realize that she has a responsibility in what happened. Presumably you mean the tweet, not her childhood abuse, just for people who might misinterpret the somewhat ambiguous reference.
- mercurial 12y ago
  Yes, the tweet. I hadn't realized the ambiguity.
hderms 12y ago
She probably didn't get another job because she's in the field of 'developer evangelism' and publicly skewered a developer without giving appropriate thought to the consequences of her actions. I think that might be an indication to employers that she might not be an appropriate candidate for the position of 'developer evangelist' unless they're willing to take on the risk associated for the benefit provided.

byuu 12y ago

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilities were offended over a crass joke. And now she's engaging in histrionics after the fact to justify her response. Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of the pervasive image in America that all men are rapists and child molesters. You talk to a woman on an elevator, or you accidentally make eye contact with a child that isn't yours for a brief second, and everyone assumes you're a sexual predator because penis. Sure, I'll accept that men are more likely to be. But we're talking about 0.000011% of women versus 0.000018% of men here. > Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it That we can both agree on. If anyone needs to be shamed here, it's these companies that we allow to put expediency over human lives. It's not okay to fire a father of three because someone managed to generate five minutes of buzz about them on Twitter. As consumers, this is partly our responsibility. And I for one will recommend strongly against ever using SendGrid to anyone who asks. It's too bad Hank didn't name his employer as well. > Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy, along with playing the race card (way out of context I might add), is clearly doing her no good here. If I read her comments, I wouldn't hire her either. And again, this is where it's good to separate your real name from your online identity. No, we shouldn't have to, but when employers behave like this, it's just proper diligence. We don't know Hank's real name here; his current employer may not even know about this incident. If Adria had done the same, maybe she'd be employed now too.

interpol_p 12y ago
> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. I've tried to read this article as Hank and Adria explaining their honest feelings. If Adria is being honest about her feelings, then I can see how her reaction came about. Even if I don't agree with it. Like I said, I don't think the joke itself — or Hank himself — was the target of her anger. It was the environment, the culture, and the system which allowed Hank to make such a joke in earshot, comfortably, making her feel utterly excluded and even threatened. You claim it's histrionics, but it might be real things she is feeling. What if she really felt this way? Shouldn't we try to understand Adria as well as we understand Hank? By dismissing her so easily we make our field more exclusive. We say, "I can't imagine that so you mustn't have experienced it. It's not a problem because I can't see it." > Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy. I don't think it's because she hates Hank and wishes bad things on him. I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage.

hitekker 12y ago

"But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it." You can understand, yes, but that hatred-- and allow me to say that again-- hatred is not something that we can excuse on the basis of race alone. Adria really hates Hank; hated him so much that when she called down the twitter brigades, she happily tweeted something along the lines of "I feel like Joan Of Arc." Hank found a new job because, fundamentally, he was innocent. Because he did not intend for anyone to get hurt, and did not join in the bandwagon that later attacked Adria. He even apologized to Adria, who still blames him for everything and showed absolutely no remorse. Some believe that systems of oppression don't exist and pin everything on the individual, e.g., racists. And then there are people who believe those systems are all that exist and that any action undertaken by a member of that system is the fault of the system, e.g. other kinds of racists. Regardless of where you stand on the spectrum, there are certain actions that are inexcusable. The intent and desire to destroy an innocent's life is one of them.

interpol_p 12y ago
See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side." She doesn't really acknowledge him because it's not about him. We've made it about him because it's so easy for us to empathise with Hank but not with her, which is exactly part of the bias she's upset about.
- JimmyM 12y ago
  > Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side. I think Ronson strongly suggests that this is in fact the case. Ronson's a great journalist for acknowledging the complexity of a situation without attempting to offer answers he's unqualified to give, imho. > “So you’re in your new workplace…” (Hank was offered another job right away) “…and you’re talking to a female developer. In what way do you act differently towards her?” > “Well,” Hank said. “We don’t have any female developers at the place I’m working at now. So.” > “You’ve got a new job now, right?” I said to Adria. > “No,” she said. Incidentally thank you for all your comments on this article. They're really thoughtful and have helped me understand what is clearly a very big issue much better.

andy_ppp 12y ago

You can't on the one hand argue that offending people in a public environment is wrong by yourself making a very public complaint to the whole world...

sspiff 12y ago

What Adria did was not OK. She could have addressed Hank and his friend, and talked to them. Tell them she overheard and it was offensive to her. Engage in discourse. Educate them about how their remarks come across. Instead, she chose to deny them the right of any defense, and publicly shamed them on the Internet, including their picture. And somehow, this is supposed to be OK? Why? Because she's part of certain minorities, as she's so keen to point out (jewish, black)? Because of her gender? If a "white male" had done anything like this, how do you think the world would have reacted? He would have been labeled as a "hacker", "doxing" an innocent and defenseless minority member and as opening the flood gates for anonymous online assault and abuse. Obviously, what happened in retaliation by the anonymous legions of idiots on the Internet is terrible and even worse than what happened to Hank, and she certainly didn't deserve anything like this. I realize this is a publication targeted towards a male audience, and it is clearly coloured to favour Hank's side in this. But if the depiction of Adria in this article is even close to genuine, I have a very hard time feeling bad for her. Some of her quotes are just out of this world, and often based on nothing but conjecture: - Quote: "Maybe it was [Hank] who started all of this. No one would have known he got fired until he complained. Maybe he’s to blame for complaining that he got fired. Maybe he secretly seeded the hate groups." - Without giving any kind of tentative evidence, she's accusing him of funding hate groups, and downplaying her fault in his bad fortunes. - She claims she feared for her life after hearing Hank make a silly forking joke. In a crowded audience, she thought he was going to kill her, right there. What the hell is that about? - Quote: "Hank’s actions resulted in him getting fired, yet he framed it in a way to blame me. If I had two kids, I wouldn’t tell ‘jokes’" - Seriously, if every father who ever told a mate a poor joke with some sexual innuendo were to get fired, we'd all be out of a job. Let him who is without sin throw the first stone. - She snarkily claims that Hank is devoid of sympathy or empathy towards other human beings, while ironically being incapable herself of empathizing with his plight. She just goes on to repeat that all of this is his fault, including both of them losing their job, and all the threats she has received. - It also sounds (especially at the end) like she blames him personally for being born into an unfair world, where he was born with more privilege and opportunity than her, but that's bringing us a bit to far off topic.

BSousa 12y ago

I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved (edit: being fired not the harassement), but not Adria. She posted the tweet WITH the photo. She started this. She (if I remember correctly) was some PR/evangelist in the company. What she did was exactly the opposite. I could understand if she tweeted about 'two men' making those jokes/whatnot and complain about it, BUT without a picture. With it, I honestly believe she got off easy... If it was me (regarding of it being a joke that was taken out of context or not), posting my picture like that would make me try and do everything to get damages from her, and her employer if she was there in any official capacity. I believe we should be inclusive of women in tech in all capabilities, and even admit it was an unfortunate joke, which I probably wouldn't make in that scenario, but what she did was actually a set back to the 'women in tech' movement. She was selfish and after the whole mess, still unapologetic. I'm sorry to say, but I'm pretty sure this brought even more doubts to folks wanting to hire women in their companies, let they now get another Adria.

TuringTest 12y ago
> I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved, but not Adria. From the article: > Someone sent Adria a photograph of a beheaded woman with tape over her mouth. Adria’s face was superimposed onto the bodies of porn actors. Websites were created to teach people how to make the superimposing look seamless — by matching skin-tones. On Facebook someone wrote, “I hope I can find Adria, kidnap her, put a torture bag over her head, and shoot a .22 subsonic round right into her fucking skull. Fuck that bitch, make her pay, make her obey. See my previous post about proportionate response; this ain't it. Even if Adria is not making herself a likable person, by shaming Hank in public and failing to accept any blame for the backlash, this is not something that she deserved because of that.
- mreiland 12y ago
  deserved is maybe not the right word for it, but I certainly feel no empathy for her. She made her decision, she went on her crusade and she got the obvious result. Not the result she wanted, but the obvious result regardless.
- BSousa 12y ago

zamalek 12y ago

> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet Turning around and asking them to stop would have been enough. If they didn't (by shrugging her off, or laughing at her request, or whatever) that would have been grounds to publicly shame them. It doesn't matter who got off easier or worse. There could be a million reasons why Adria didn't get another job: the male-dominated industry is one. Here's a personal challenge, which of these would you hire: * A female registered sex offender. * A male who avoids tackling problems head-on and instead appeals to authority in order to get those problems removed. I don't see a gender issue here, I do however see excuse and justification issues. Things still work out the same way in the end if you switch the genders around.

ryan-c 12y ago
"registered sex offender" is pretty meaningless without context - in some states getting caught peeing in a bush after a night of drinking in college can result in that label.
- zamalek 12y ago
  I was going for the "worst" kind. Not everyone might agree with me, but I honestly don't see a severe offender as an impediment to being able to get a project done and would happily hire one.

tw04 12y ago

Yet she didn't think it was a big deal to make penis jokes herself. She's a hypocrite, plain and simple. And the way she acted in the post-interview appears to indicate she thinks it's OK for her to try to publicly shame people just to make a spectacle. Even when she's guilty of the exact. same. shit.

e40 12y ago

and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened I can understand angry, but not threatened. None of the comments I heard come close to a threat and everyone involved admits they weren't directed at her.

copsarebastards 12y ago

> But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority, and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened all while watching a talk on inclusiveness. There are tons of cases where people have been made to feel uncomfortable by their peers in the software industry because of their race and/or sex. Racism and sexism are definitely problems in the software industry. But this specific case is just ridiculous. Look at the actual jokes involved. "That hardware has a really big dongle"? "I would fork that guy's repo"? The butts of these jokes were a fictional piece of hardware and a (probably white) male, respectively. There's nothing in those jokes that could logically lead a woman to believe that the jokers would cause her harm. Just because a joke is sexual doesn't mean it's sexist. This wasn't even an overreaction: it was a reaction to something that wasn't sexist. Internet feminism is a particularly poor representation of modern feminist thought. Most modern feminists say that women are just as sexual as men, and that women don't express their sexuality because of social pressure--an assertion which is gaining some scientific evidence. Ironically, Adria is enforcing a stereotype that anything sexual is anti-female. From that perspective, Adria's actions are the sexist ones, not Hank's. I agree that both Adria and Hank got worse than they deserved in this situation. Certainly losing their jobs is too much, and nobody should ever have to experience death threats. But I find it a lot harder to be sympathetic to Adria in this case. If I were her employer I'd definitely be having doubts. If my engineers are making sexist comments I will fire them, but someone who accuses people of making sexist comments when they aren't making sexist comments is a liability. Of course, there may be more to this story we don't know. Maybe Hank made some other jokes that were actually sexist.

rdtsc 12y ago

I don't agree with framing this as men vs women. And your post does it quite a bit. > But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority No. It is a programming conference. It is not a forced place to be, it is not torture, it a programming conference. Framing this as some kind of a jungle full of dangers, rapists and murders lurking behind their little laptops, wearing geeky t-shirts is a bit crazy. There are real inappropriate comments, sexual innuendos, harassment, both in the workplace and during conferences but this wasn't it. By blowing this up she is fighting against her own cause because it diminishes the importance and impact of those things. It brings them down to the level of "oh crazy irrationality, and overreacting" which is the typical excuse for dismissing them. Next time someone is really harassed, the offender can just say "Oh she is pulling an Aria on me" or something to that effect. > — that she should not have to apologise for it. Yes she should have. Everyone expected Hank to apologize And he did. Not expecting her to apologies further excusing her lack of empathy is discriminatory and sexist. > And you have to wonder — did Hank get another job so fast because our field is dominated by men, and they are likely to feel for him and have the same initial reactions as we do when reading this article? I don't wonder. I am quite sure he got a job because others realized he was a decent person, who said a stupid thing, made a mistake, apologized for it. A person you want working for you. It wasn't because he had a penis or because he was white. Adria on the other hand showed her character and her character is not one I would want on my team. She is manipulative, lacks empathy, likes controversy, and promotes discrimination and sexism.

interpol_p 12y ago
> I don't agree with framing this as men vs women. It's not my intention to frame it this way. Sorry for giving you that impression. My intention is to frame this as an invisible problem to us as men. My intention is to try to help people reflect on why they are so quick to anger about Adria, but realise they are perhaps not seeing a bigger problem. I say this as someone who initially had similar angry reactions and then took a step back and tried to place myself in her shoes. > No. It is a programming conference. It is not a forced place to be, it is not torture, it a programming conference. Framing this as some kind of a jungle full of dangers, rapists and murders lurking behind their little laptops, wearing geeky t-shirts is a bit crazy. I'm not framing it like that. That may not stop PyCon from feeling like that for women. Let's say there are women who feel unsafe at PyCon. Shouldn't we be concerned about this? Shouldn't we communicate them and try to figure out how we can include them? Most of what I see in this thread moves to dismiss such women as delusional, because obviously PyCon is not full of rapists, it doesn't matter what women feel, they should get over it. > Yes she should have. I think you are taking my quote out of context. I'm not saying she should or shouldn't apologise. I was trying to explain how I could understand, after all that's happened, why she wouldn't feel the need to. We have made this all about Hank. Probably because it's easy for us to get in his head. But I don't think she sees Hank as a very important figure in her experience of this situation so far. Hank was an oblivious and unfortunate side effect of the exclusion she felt at the conference. > It wasn't because he had a penis or because he was white. Software is a male dominated field right now. It is so easy for men who read this article to be angry at Adria and feel sorry for Hank. Just look at the reactions in this thread. That alone gives him a great chance of regaining employment. I'm sure the original HN thread had some guys saying "get in touch, we'll give you a job!" > Adria on the other hand showed her character and her character is not one I would want on my team. She is manipulative, lacks empathy, likes controversy, and promotes discrimination and sexism. You've twisted her into a monster in your own head. I wish I could convince you to step back from your feelings for a while, try not to let anger cloud your judgment. I think she was a pretty reasonable person who did something a bit thoughtless out of emotion. It blew up, the employers made terrible decisions, and everyone blamed her. My entire point in this thread has been that we should examine what makes our field so threatening to women. It's the death by a thousand paper cuts thing — women face so many tiny challenges that seem innocuous on their own, and we are oblivious to all of them. And instead of deciding to show understanding when situations like this arise, we show blame and demonise the real people involved.

amalag 12y ago

As for getting a new job. Adria was in a public relations role. Any future employer would have to be comfortable with the way she handled herself. Especially since she is not apologetic for it. Hank made a crude joke that was overheard, pretty much the extent of his wrongdoings.