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This will come into effect silently without any public discussion about it. I can only speak about Germany where the news and mainstream-intellectual talkshows

by igl 12y ago

This will come into effect silently without any public discussion about it. I can only speak about Germany where the news and mainstream-intellectual talkshows are still dominated by Muslim vs West discussions and reports about Anti-Muslim demonstration that a few (2000) whackjobs are attending. The Demonstration against TTIP with roughly 50.000 attendees in Berlin a few weeks ago received no news, no articles and did not spark discussions other than satirical/comedy shows making fun about it. I start to believe they aim to kill the seriousness of the outrage.

UnoriginalGuy 12y ago
Why is it that nobody takes seriously the concept that mainstream media is a propaganda source for government, even in the West? Everyone jokes about how bad it is developing nations (and dictatorships), and makes fun of everyone that raises concerned about western countries as being nut-job conspiracy theorist who believe in lizard people or whatever. US News in particular is breathtakingly propagandist. It is like watching a US themed Russia Today. And only the "comedy" shows in the US, and some internet-only sources really provide a moderately unbiased view.
- marcosdumay 12y ago
  Who do you want to take the concept seriously? The mainstream media? The Internet is a great achievement. For the first time we can get the information the media isn't wiling to share with us, and it is damaging. People are noticing. They are just not reacting the way you (and me) expected - what should be expected.
  - lukifer 12y ago
    The counter-point is how PR folk have been learning to master the art of viral, distributed propaganda. While it's harder to control than broadcast (memes have a life of their own), active manipulation of public narrative for profit remains alive and well on the Internet.
- leereeves 12y ago
  Every media source is biased. Even The Daily Show and Colbert Report. Even reddit and Hacker News are biased (reddit calls it the hivemind). That's not the same as being a propaganda source for government, unless the only viewpoint anyone is allowed to express is the one approved by the government.
  - grecy 12y ago
    > That's not the same as being a propaganda source for government, unless the only viewpoint anyone is allowed to express is the one approved by the government. In the west (especially the US) I'd say the media is a propaganda source for big businesses, and the only viewpoint anyone express is the one approved by big businesses.
    - leereeves 12y ago
      I agree. The media IS big business, owned by even bigger business, and that's their point of view.
      - grecy 12y ago
        And that big business is buying the government more and more every day.. which indirectly means the only view in the media is that of the (big business owned) government.
  - cma 12y ago
    Journalists trade puff-pieces for leaks and exclusives. Only those in power typically have leaks to trade.
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    Bias != propaganda. You definition of propaganda is overly specific. If you're waiting for leaflets to be dropped out of airplanes, you're going to be disappointed. >unless the only viewpoint anyone is allowed to express is the one approved by the government. That's totalitarianism, at least WRT the media and public discourse.
- cdcarter 12y ago
  This article is written by a major dissenter in the US Govt, and published in one of the most read newspapers in the country, trying to demystify and make public the actions of the government and trade partners. Perhaps it's just the exception that proves the rule.
- api 12y ago
  Because the "conspiracy theory" charge is used to successfully lump all investigative journalism in with people who think the queen of england is a reptile.
- swatow 12y ago
  It's a difficult point to argue without going into specifics because everyone has a different concept of what the nature of the government is, and so they will interpret being propaganda for the government differently. E.g. Chomsky sees the government as a vehicle for the rich elite, and so when he speaks about being propaganda, he has in mind the media spreading messages that benefit the rich elite. E.g. he thinks that the US encourages a right wing regime in Israel in order to stir up trouble in the middle east, which I think is ridiculous. Someone on the economic left (without Chomsky's social or geopolitical viewpoint) might consider the government to be working to lower wages by doing deals with other like minded governments. And (as people are saying here) the media would be complicit by not reporting this. I think that the government is primarily controlled by ideological forces, and that the government does not exercise much direct control over the media, but that both the media and government are heavily influenced by the same ideologies.
  - lukifer 12y ago
    It is worse and simpler than ideology: self-interest demands collusion. Media conglomerates benefit from political ad revenue and "access"; political figures benefit from corporate news channels that won't rock the boat. Individuals who buck this trend from either side are filtered out, usually before they set foot in the door. Those who remain are only too happy to believe the narrative that benefits them.
mduerksen 12y ago
>The Demonstration against TTIP with roughly 50.000 attendees in Berlin a few weeks ago received no news Wait, what? I'm on the mailing list of stop-ttip.org and had no idea. How can I be sure to get notified of any scheduled demo in my area?
swatow 12y ago
Where did you get the 50,000 figure? The mainstream media is reporting "thousands". You seem to think that the Muslim issue is there to distract the masses, but everyone has a different view of what the "real problem" is. Some people would consider issues around Islam in Europe to be of great importance, and the free trade agreement to be a distraction.
- killerpopiller 12y ago
  oppinions are formed, e.g. by the gate keepers of the media. If one topic gets lots of air time ppl misinterpret it with importance. Media often prefer the simpler story over abstract and complex topics, the secrecy of TPP negotiations help as well. Muslim issues compared to TPP have 0 relevance. TPP and the like will erode democratic societiey untill there is only plutocracy left.
aikah 12y ago
> that a few (2000) whackjobs are attending. You could have made a good point without your unnecessary rant and insult against some people that express their opinion peacefully. You're the definition of arrogance and why the little people don't listen to people like you. These insults were unnecessary. It's not about Pediga.If Pegida didn't exist the media would talk about anything but the TTIP. So please continue to defend whatever cause you defend that way. Because you do it so badly.

by igl 12y ago

UnoriginalGuy 12y ago

Why is it that nobody takes seriously the concept that mainstream media is a propaganda source for government, even in the West? Everyone jokes about how bad it is developing nations (and dictatorships), and makes fun of everyone that raises concerned about western countries as being nut-job conspiracy theorist who believe in lizard people or whatever. US News in particular is breathtakingly propagandist. It is like watching a US themed Russia Today. And only the "comedy" shows in the US, and some internet-only sources really provide a moderately unbiased view.

marcosdumay 12y ago
Who do you want to take the concept seriously? The mainstream media? The Internet is a great achievement. For the first time we can get the information the media isn't wiling to share with us, and it is damaging. People are noticing. They are just not reacting the way you (and me) expected - what should be expected.
- lukifer 12y ago
  The counter-point is how PR folk have been learning to master the art of viral, distributed propaganda. While it's harder to control than broadcast (memes have a life of their own), active manipulation of public narrative for profit remains alive and well on the Internet.
leereeves 12y ago
Every media source is biased. Even The Daily Show and Colbert Report. Even reddit and Hacker News are biased (reddit calls it the hivemind). That's not the same as being a propaganda source for government, unless the only viewpoint anyone is allowed to express is the one approved by the government.
- grecy 12y ago
  > That's not the same as being a propaganda source for government, unless the only viewpoint anyone is allowed to express is the one approved by the government. In the west (especially the US) I'd say the media is a propaganda source for big businesses, and the only viewpoint anyone express is the one approved by big businesses.
  - leereeves 12y ago
    I agree. The media IS big business, owned by even bigger business, and that's their point of view.
    - grecy 12y ago
      And that big business is buying the government more and more every day.. which indirectly means the only view in the media is that of the (big business owned) government.
- cma 12y ago
  Journalists trade puff-pieces for leaks and exclusives. Only those in power typically have leaks to trade.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  Bias != propaganda. You definition of propaganda is overly specific. If you're waiting for leaflets to be dropped out of airplanes, you're going to be disappointed. >unless the only viewpoint anyone is allowed to express is the one approved by the government. That's totalitarianism, at least WRT the media and public discourse.
cdcarter 12y ago
This article is written by a major dissenter in the US Govt, and published in one of the most read newspapers in the country, trying to demystify and make public the actions of the government and trade partners. Perhaps it's just the exception that proves the rule.
api 12y ago
Because the "conspiracy theory" charge is used to successfully lump all investigative journalism in with people who think the queen of england is a reptile.
swatow 12y ago
It's a difficult point to argue without going into specifics because everyone has a different concept of what the nature of the government is, and so they will interpret being propaganda for the government differently. E.g. Chomsky sees the government as a vehicle for the rich elite, and so when he speaks about being propaganda, he has in mind the media spreading messages that benefit the rich elite. E.g. he thinks that the US encourages a right wing regime in Israel in order to stir up trouble in the middle east, which I think is ridiculous. Someone on the economic left (without Chomsky's social or geopolitical viewpoint) might consider the government to be working to lower wages by doing deals with other like minded governments. And (as people are saying here) the media would be complicit by not reporting this. I think that the government is primarily controlled by ideological forces, and that the government does not exercise much direct control over the media, but that both the media and government are heavily influenced by the same ideologies.
- lukifer 12y ago
  It is worse and simpler than ideology: self-interest demands collusion. Media conglomerates benefit from political ad revenue and "access"; political figures benefit from corporate news channels that won't rock the boat. Individuals who buck this trend from either side are filtered out, usually before they set foot in the door. Those who remain are only too happy to believe the narrative that benefits them.

mduerksen 12y ago

>The Demonstration against TTIP with roughly 50.000 attendees in Berlin a few weeks ago received no news Wait, what? I'm on the mailing list of stop-ttip.org and had no idea. How can I be sure to get notified of any scheduled demo in my area?

swatow 12y ago

Where did you get the 50,000 figure? The mainstream media is reporting "thousands". You seem to think that the Muslim issue is there to distract the masses, but everyone has a different view of what the "real problem" is. Some people would consider issues around Islam in Europe to be of great importance, and the free trade agreement to be a distraction.

killerpopiller 12y ago
oppinions are formed, e.g. by the gate keepers of the media. If one topic gets lots of air time ppl misinterpret it with importance. Media often prefer the simpler story over abstract and complex topics, the secrecy of TPP negotiations help as well. Muslim issues compared to TPP have 0 relevance. TPP and the like will erode democratic societiey untill there is only plutocracy left.

aikah 12y ago

> that a few (2000) whackjobs are attending. You could have made a good point without your unnecessary rant and insult against some people that express their opinion peacefully. You're the definition of arrogance and why the little people don't listen to people like you. These insults were unnecessary. It's not about Pediga.If Pegida didn't exist the media would talk about anything but the TTIP. So please continue to defend whatever cause you defend that way. Because you do it so badly.