6 ms·

If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

265 points by adwn 12y ago

aw3c2 12y ago
Stolen from http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650...
- mtmail 12y ago
  The source is listed at the end of the joke so at least there was some attribution.
  - mathgeek 12y ago
    I find that in this age of no one reading past the inferred end of the article, it's best to put attribution at the top so as to avoid this very confusion. Just my two pennies.
  - doodpants 12y ago
    Anyone who provides a reference on a web page to another web page without making it a clickable link is doing the internet wrong.
  - deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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illumen 12y ago
Gold.
- robobro 12y ago
  I find it a bit less shiny every time I see it.
_justin 12y ago
I have read this before, and I see the source is attributed. If so, why is this link on HN and not the original. Seems a way to gather some page hits.
placebo 12y ago
Love it :) Sad thing is that it hit the nail on the head so accurately (pardon the pun)
- mathgeek 12y ago
  You really rocked it there.
  - Demiurge 12y ago
    Very piercing commentary.
deleted 12y ago
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mlamat 12y ago
I will attach this to my resume.
stared 12y ago
Then it means that you are applying to a wrong company (already consumed by bureaucracy, with little tech value or understanding)... I remember my programming interviews as the most meritocratic ones (much more than e.g. in academia, where there is a problem that one is have too low high, or different official credentials).
DanielBMarkham 12y ago
It's worse than that. The CHAOS study, among others, shows that 80%+ of all software projects are viewed as failures by the people who pay for them. Meanwhile you come onto boards like HN or reddit and instead of talking about how to establish and keep trust with the folks writing the checks, everybody's talking frameworks and tools. So picture a subdivision where 80% of the houses are broken down, priced too high, incomplete, or put together haphazardly. Now stop at one of the houses where the building crew is still there and watch them spend all day talking about the nail-o-matic 200psi nailgun or the robot auto-roofer that the carpenters in the next town are using. The situation is sad from every angle.
- alricb 12y ago
  > So picture a subdivision where 80% of the houses are broken down, priced too high, incomplete, or put together haphazardly. Well, in a typical subdivision, this is actually the case. Construction quality for housing in the US and Canada is woeful, though a lot of it isn't the carpenters' fault (but some of it is).
- hobs 12y ago
  Yes, but unsurprisingly so. It is much easier to think that the project was a failure because tool choice instead of the actual reasons projects fail; of people who are not good enough to complete the project (junior carpenters put in charge of a skyscraper), management who wants people to build some impossible project on a tiny deadline (carpenter contracted to build stairway to heaven by October), or one of the other reasons software projects fail. All of those problems require people and process work, not just technology, but as one of the biggest problems of tech is that we often see it as a panacea, we just think the new framework will somehow gloss over these major deficiencies.
- k__ 12y ago
  It's easier to blame a heap of software than yourself. I've worked with really horrible frameworks in the past and most devs were like "well I wrote a wrapper to get the ugly stuff out of the way and then build it the right way", most of the time they didn't even bother to learn how things work.
- 12y ago
alricb 12y ago
Are interview questions this irrelevant? Because there are relevant questions you could ask a carpenter in an interview, like if they've worked with I-joists, whether they know what a nailing schedule is, whether they're familiar with a "California corner", their health and safety knowledge, etc.
- geon 12y ago
  It is obviously an exaggeration, but Java/Javascript confusion is a real thing.
- Swizec 12y ago
  As you can tell, this article was not written by somebody who knows carpentry. It's also supposed to be funny. But yes and no, interview questions can be this irrelevant. This is a litmus test. It tells you that you should treat this company as a client, not as an employer, play the expert card, and charge 3x your normal rate. Because they don't know what they're doing, and will likely gladly pay somebody who does know and can explain it to "the suits".
- perdunov 12y ago
  I would say that passing interviews is a separate skill, different than doing actual work. They are not completely different, of course, but different. This implies that the irrelevance is pretty high, otherwise you would not need to prepare specifically for interviews.
  - vonmoltke 12y ago
    That is a serious flaw in the typical interview process. An interview is supposed to screen people based on whether or not they can do actual work. If you are really screening for some parallel skill, then your hires are going to be a crapshoot.
  - frostmatthew 12y ago
    This is true of any job though. Even though there is a difference between "interview coding" and "real life coding" an advantage of our profession is that we can have interviews that can give more insight into how someone will do their job than just asking them questions. Imagine hiring a manager - you can't "whiteboard" management.
stillsut 12y ago
This actually will happen if you speak with an HR rep for insurance predictive modelling: -So do you have experience with SAS? -Yes, but mostly I model in R. They are sister languages. -So how much SAS, how much R? -Mostly R as it is widely held to be a superior language -But SAS you can do more with! -Ahh, if Big-Famous-Tech-Company-X wanted to do stat modelling they use R, not SAS. Again, anyone who does statistical modelling knows this. -But we pay for SAS -Yeah, sorry about that...
- italophil 12y ago
  If they want SAS that is their choice. It's like asking a carpenter to built a cupboard and he answers: "I'd rather build a shelf, it will hold your dishes just as well."
  - wtbob 12y ago
    No, it's more like asking a carpenter to build a cupboard, but when he brings a hammer to the worksite you ask him to use a rubber mallet instead. Sure, one could drive nails with a rubber mallet—but who'd want to? Likewise, who would want to use an inferior language or library when superior ones exist?
    - deleted 12y ago
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    - omegaham 12y ago
      > Likewise, who would want to use an inferior language or library when superior ones exist? My guess is that the existing codebase is in inferiorLanguage, and it would be a massive pain in the ass to rewrite it in superiorLanguage. The carpentry analogy doesn't really work here because you can stop using the rubber mallet at any time. You can't just switch frameworks or languages when you feel like it.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    No, it is not like that at all. It is like asking a Carpenter to build a cupboard and thinking he's unqualified for the job if he's only ever used Craftsman screwdrivers because that means he can't use Husky screwdrivers. Its also like deciding to hire an HR guy based on what brands of keyboards or pens he's used.
pamparosendo 12y ago
Just great!
bmoresbest55 12y ago
I really enjoyed the post. I reminded me a lot of this Youtube video(http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg). I understand this is a comical post but as the son of a carpenter and understanding the profession decently well I would say these are none of the questions that would be asked of a carpenter. There are however many important questions a person would need to answer to be hired as a carpenter or more likely be able to join a union. There they would be able to get experience and training. Then the company the union carpenter work for already knows the skills and abilities they have and there is really no need for any interview. Any GC or sub asks for guys to do a job. The local sends them the qualified guys. Pretty simple actually.
- s_kilk 12y ago
  > I really enjoyed the post. I reminded me a lot of this Youtube video(http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg). Jesus, that's painfully real.
- delinka 12y ago
  "...these are none of the questions that would be asked of a carpenter." That's exactly the point. But it parallels the useless questions so often asked of the general computer programmer by the Corporate HR Recruiter Drone .
henrik_w 12y ago
"Well, I’m a carpenter, so I’ve worked with all kinds of wood, you know, and there are some differences, but I think if you’re a good carpenter …" In my experience, a good programmer in one language is very likely a good programmer in another language as well. There are a lot more commonalities than some people realize. That's the reason why I'm sceptical of claims such as "the programmer knowledge half-life is X years". More in "Programmer Knowledge" http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/15/programmer-knowledge/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/15/programmer-knowledge/
- seanwilson 12y ago
  I'd rather hire a programmer that knew many languages than one who only knew one language really well though. Once you've learned a few frameworks and languages, you get much better at picking up new ones quickly because you've seen the same concepts somewhere else already.
  - weixiyen 12y ago
    I've always gone for the ones who really knew one language inside and out. The reason is actually very simple, they have demonstrated exceptional skill to dive deep into one language, so they should be able to do the same in another language. The jack-of-all-trades people usually are much riskier hires as they don't always understand how deep they can go in any particular language, thus are unable to fully assess what they don't know, and require much more guidance as a result.
    - seanwilson 12y ago
      So my reasoning is that if you know some Java you can pick up C# easily, if you know some JavaScript you can pick up Python easily etc. If you've stuck to a single language, it's going to take you much longer as you're having to learn new concepts and it's also rare I work on projects where only a single language is being used. Everyone should aim to learn enough languages that they have at least some experience of OOP, functional programming, dynamic types, strong types and SQL in my opinion.
    - 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
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spiralpolitik 12y ago
Accurate, but missed the part where the carpenter is asked to build a cabinet by drawing it on the whiteboard.
- TamDenholm 12y ago
  Yeah exactly, was once given pencil and paper and asked to write some code. That was early on in my career, so even though i knew it was ridiculous, i didnt have enough confidence to tell them they're being idiots. At this point in my career however, i'm far more jaded about stupid interview techniques like that and will refuse to do them unless provided with a computer.
  - thomaskcr 12y ago
    Why wouldn't you just do it? I can understand if they're nit-picking syntax but I personally ask people to write out algorithms/code on the board all the time in interviews. I don't care about the code, I want to see them think through a problem. They can use any for syntax they want, even mix and match things like brackets and indentation or how control structures are defined (for i = 1 to 10 { .. } ), or use a function outside of the current abstraction level without writing it as long as they say what they're doing. If you can't write out an algorithm or some classes that work together without a compiler/interpreter, then you're just guess and checking as you work and not thinking through what you do ahead of time. I can't program without google, but I can write out my implementation just fine -- that's what people are interested in. I don't really get how I'm being an idiot wanting to explore how someone solves a problem in the medium they work (code) -- I'm not a human compiler so I obviously don't care if their program compiles or is even in a real language, as long as it gets across what they are trying to do and how they would do it. Also -- you'll need to deal with stupid people forever, the way your comment is worded it sounds like you think you're smarter and better than everyone else and are "above this silliness". When interviewing I'm jaded about people who can't interact with people who they view as "below them" -- you'd hopefully not even make it in the door for an interview if you can't politely answer a question you think is dumb. Like 90% of interactions for software developers outside of their dept are answering dumb questions... I may need to add dumb questions to my interviews to catch this... Edit: Also -- can you explain the code you've written/your implementation? How do you include me in your problem solving? What type of questions do you or don't you ask while doing it? Where do you start/how do you start? If the HR person is there, can you explain what you're doing to them? How do you take suggestions? How do you break down your objects (this gives soooo much information about background, I can tell a lot about a developer based on how they name their classes, like people who have worked with only activerecord style classes). I can follow up with a refactoring change (substitute this for that in this situation, decide based on a configuration file - does this require a significant redesign?) I mean come on... it gives so much information about how someone works, I think its dumber not to ask some type of question with writing "code" - it just gives so much information about a candidate that would be hard to get one question at a time. This one question can infinitely expand and lets them interact about something they know/are comfortable with (the solution to their problem). Don't be silly.
belorn 12y ago
A clear difference between a carpenter and a programmer is the liability inherent in the work. A carpenter can't just produce a minimum viable product that just happens to break down as soon as a bird land on it, or leaks water as if it was constructed like a sieve. Hiring a carpenter is a comparable safe thing to do, as the worst thing a lawful carpenter can do is overcharge his clients/employer. A programmer on other hand is not liable for anything. If it breaks or leaks information at the easiest provocation, then its not the programmer who might loose money. All risk is put on the employer or customer, and as such, it becomes their responsibility to identify and test a programmer before spending money. As a result, you get questions which are mostly irrelevant to the task at hand, but which might sorts out high risk vs low risk. If I hired a carpenter under those conditions, I would ask what brand of paint they buy. If its an expensive one, it might hint towards a professional.
- sopooneo 12y ago
  Your logic makes sense, but it seems like every high school I've ever been in or heard about that had just recently been built leaked rain like a sieve.
  - Spooky23 12y ago
    That's because of flawed design usually. Architects cook up these lovely stylish renderings that the school boards find inspiring (particularly since it isn't their cash), which often involve flat or complex roofs. Fast forward to the post-construction era, and that inspiring building now has 10 inches of water or ice on the roof. Water being water, it eventually gets in, usually around flashing.
- icebraining 12y ago
  So if a salaried carpenter does a shoddy work, does the employer get reimbursed? I find that very hard to believe.
linker3000 12y ago
...and architects sometimes have to go to great lengths before they are allowed to work on your castle: http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/698061/hiorne-tower-nr-arundel-west-sussex/ http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/698061/hiorne-tower-nr-arun... ...and for sci fi fans who think the Tower looks familiar: http://www.doctorwholocations.net/locations/arundelparktower http://www.doctorwholocations.net/locations/arundelparktower
lordnacho 12y ago
This is so true. I see a lot of job ads that seem to require very specific experience, but where anyone in that field could do the job. If you just make up eg 4 different types of technology, and put a few things in each bracket: [SVN, Git, Mercurial, CVS] [MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, MSSQL] [AMQP, MQTT, STOMP, RabbitMQ] [Java, C#, C++, ObjC] Now if someone came along and said they'd solved a domain problem (eg trading systems) with one of each of those, I would more or less believe they could do it with any of the others, with a bit of time to get used to things (particularly c++). But if you don't believe that, ie if you decide the person must have a specific combination, then you've just shattered the potential pool of applicants into 256 little pieces. The other thing that annoys me is the pettiness of the interview questions. So many things that you could easily google can be used to stump anyone. What's the default implementation of GetHash() in c#? I actually got asked this once. Then there's the other way to do things, which is to do an online coding assessment. I guess this gets rid of the FizzBuzz failures, but it tends to be a problem that's too small to see if you're about to dig a hole.
- barrkel 12y ago
  What's the default implementation of GetHash() in c#? I actually like this question (not that I've ever asked it before), because it teases out how well someone knows .net and C#. The specific implementation of GetHashCode isn't what's interesting. It's whether you know that .net implements reference vs value equality by default, whether you know you really do need to override GetHashCode if you override Equals, testing if you know the fundamental requirements for objects you might use as keys in a Dictionary. The specific number returned and its relationship with the identity of the object - that's not important, and is truly not something you could be expected to know. But you're ability to think things through, and know the environment - yes.
  - jhall1468 12y ago
    Bull. It teases out if someone happens to know the GetHash() implementation in C#. Their knowledge of .NET and C# can, in no way, be determined by one stupid question about the implementation of a specific function in C#. Evidence of that fact is in your actual response: I could now answer that question, having never used .NET or C#.
hmottestad 12y ago
Seems like this is the original: http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/Default.aspx?blog=entry.7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/Default.aspx?blog=entry.7c334037...
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  How can it be "the original" when it states in the opening paragraph I didn't write this, so I can't take credit for it?
brickmort 12y ago
ouch! As someone who's been on an 8-month long job hunt, this hits too close to home.
sjclemmy 12y ago
As someone who occasionally has hiring responsibility I sympathise with both interviewer and interviewee. It is extremely tricky to determine if the person you have interviewed is going to fit the bill. I've hired people who I thought would be a great fit for permanent roles but turned out to be the worst kind of procrastinating, one trick ponies who caused more problems than they fixed. In a recent situation I had a very specific set of requirements for very specific reasons. The company is .net all the way and has a couple of permanent developers who know only VB and have no C# experience. Because of a large influx of work, these developers needed some additional resource for a short period of time. I wanted to try and increase the skill level of the permanent developers as they are not very familiar with design patterns and 'modern' techniques. To this end, I wanted C# developers with familiarity with design patterns and modern best practice to come in and develop in VB. I didn't care if they hadn't used VB recently at all. But I did care that they knew .net. I don't have time for them to learn .net. So I can't have someone from the Java world, it would just take too long. But at the same time, I'd rather not have a VB only person, as they tend (and I am generalising, I know) to not understand much about design patterns and they don't tend to have broad programming knowledge. When interviewing for a specific role, you have to think very hard about what it is you are trying to do - and don't just fall back on generic cut and paste questions.
- jasonwocky 12y ago
  > When interviewing for a specific role, you have to think very hard about what it is you are trying to do - and don't just fall back on generic cut and paste questions. I think this is true, but it raises a question about "hiring for a specific role." I find that when companies do this, they're in a reactive mode. Which of course is going to happen from time to time, but the reason memes like the OP get born is because many companies are habitually reactive when it comes to hiring. I don't follow a lot of sports, but I follow NFL football. Each year, the teams get to "draft" (a/k/a hire) incoming players from college. When it comes to the NFL draft, there are two prevailing philosophies: "Draft for Need" and "Draft Best Player Available". Without question, teams that stick to more of a BPA approach tend to have longer term success. Teams that draft for need sometimes get that player that helps them get over the hump and win a championship, but more often they're trading away long-term greatness for some short-term pain relief. I think hiring for software teams (and just about anything where there is a lot of variance in depth and breadth of skill) follows the same pattern. Hiring for a specific role is an antipattern (albeit sometimes a necessary one). If you have a very specific role to fill, perhaps a freelancer or a consultant might be a better fit for easing the short-term pain. Then you let them go as soon as they're no longer needed.
vog 12y ago
Original discussion to the original article posted by Jason Bock (which was merely copied by Dawood Sangameshwari without proper attribution [1]): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819413 [1] There is some attribution a the bottom of the page, but it isn't proper. It contains neither the original author's name, nor is it a clickable link. It's just a plain text URL. Better than nothing, but still the most shabby way of "attribution" I've ever seen.
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  At the top of http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650... Bock says I didn't write this, so I can't take credit for it so I'm not sure failing to include his name or clickable link really qualifies as "shabby" attribution.
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - vog 12y ago
    At least James Bock added a (clickable) link to the closest source he could find. Dawood Sangameshwari could have taken at least that one.
utxaa 12y ago
of course, this happens, but when it happens just end the interview. would you like to work in such a place?
fivedogit 12y ago
I like the metaphor and style, but I think he left some good parts out. Such as (and yes I was asked these): - The ridiculously broad yes or no honor question (e.g. "So are you familiar with data structures and design patterns?”) - The ridiculously specific-to-the-company question (e.g. " Here is a batch of the data our systems generate. How would you process it for triggering of requests to our api?") - The vaguely worded trick question: "OK that looks good... But how would you do it if you didn't have all these nice Java objects and methods?") - The Prove-it Take-home that doesn't change anything. "We use ruby and you've mostly used Java, do this ruby take home assignment." Two days later. "Your assignment looks great but we're really looking for someone with more Ruby experience." - The post-coding interview, resume-based rejection AKA "why the fuck did you ask me to come in in the first place?" rejection. (E.g. "Your coding interview went well but you've jumped around to different projects and we're not sure you wouldn't leave us if given the chance.") - The didn't drink enough kool-aid rejection. "Don't know the CEO's full bio? Don't know the intricate details of our public API? Didn't read our blog post from this morning? For shame."
Throwaway1224 12y ago
No mention of H1Bs in this hiring related post?
jethro_tell 12y ago
Man this is the strangest thing to me. I used to be a carpenter. I would show up at your job site with my tools, you might ask me a couple questions, I've had guys ask me to lay out a wall or two off the prints. Call a reference to see if I show up to work. Then I get the job. Usually, doing something myself or my boss never had done before, and we would figure it out off the prints, and build it. I just go turned down for a job I was perfectly qualified for because I 'didn't seem eager enough.' Other notes from the interviewer said 'I'd be ready to go day one' and 'seems easy going and easy to get along with' What the fuck is wrong with people? When did working at your shit company have to be my passion instead of my job?
- freshyill 12y ago
  And the real kicker is that no company really gives a shit about anyone. The expect complete loyalty, but they have none in return.
  - jethro_tell 12y ago
    Yeah, that kinda bums me out.
- dwc 12y ago
  > Usually, doing something myself or my boss never had done before, and we would figure it out off the prints, and build it. Yes, of course. That's been my entire career in software as well. And I'd suggest that's what people should be looking for: the ability to build something they've never built before.
  - jethro_tell 12y ago
    If someone's already built it, I'm not that interested in it.
- jonahx 12y ago
  In fairness, the analogy would be: carpentering job = 2 week programming contract job and in that case the expectations in the programming job would be more lax, and few people would care about your "passion for the company." Even controlling for that difference, I still think you make a good point. Though it's probably true for modern corporate business culture in general, and not specific to programming.
je42 12y ago
Depending on the job; i find the deeper somebody knows his/her special field the better he/she can adapt to another field. I.e. if you really know the ins/outs of the Java, the VM, changes of the language over time. You will be able to pick up C#, python f.e.
V-2 12y ago
This answer on Programmers Stack Exchange sums the problem up very nicely: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/1847 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/1847 > A common HR thing that drives me nuts when I'm job hunting: the implicit assumption that all coding skills are language-specific, that there is no software engineering expertise that transcends command sets. That ten years experience in Java and another five in Perl mean you'd be completely useless on a project that uses, say, C#. > "Yes, there's a learning curve. But I've made harder transitions than this. I'll make you a deal, pay me 80% for the first month and at the end of that time if I'm not ... oh, wait, we're not actually having this conversation, because your HR monkey simply deleted my application."
- derekp7 12y ago
  I think that's why a lot of companies are now doing contract-to-hire. First they let the contracting agency do the pre-screening, and if the employee doesn't work out the contract just doesn't get renewed. Only problem is for the employee -- it is difficult during the contract phase, if they don't get any feedback if they will be converted to an FTE, and the lack of benefits. So for the hiring company, they will no be able to steal away any good developers who are currently fully employed.
pargon 12y ago
They forgot to ask about the deeply theoretical questions that the carpenter wouldn't actually use at the job. "Now could you whiteboard for me how a table saw is built?" "I've never had to build a table saw." "I just want to see how you think."
blueatlas 12y ago
I came across this [1] job posting last week. Made me realize how ridiculous the knowledge and experience expected of a web developer has become. I particularly like bullet 6, "Team-oriented, flexible, and able to work in an ambiguous and/or changing work environment." Really? [1] http://jobs.hbispace.com/web/95148/job_2-15.html?cacheBuster=6420099 http://jobs.hbispace.com/web/95148/job_2-15.html?cacheBuster...
- snsr 12y ago
  That's a good example of outright incompetence; the author clearly has no idea what they're talking about.
- mtbcoder 12y ago
  DHTML? I haven't heard that term used in a while. I think can translate that job posting as such: "In order to save costs, we've trimmed all developer positions except one. You will be the sole developer responsible for everything we do. You will always need to be on-call to work, even if it's formatting a Wordpress post for an editor on a Saturday night. You will work long hours but we'll only pay for 40/week, no overtime. Your salary will be peanuts and will not cover the cost of living in Washington, DC. Be a team player and join us."
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whybroke 12y ago
Given that both articles on that site were swiped from elsewhere without attribution, perhaps that particular "carpenter" should be asked about theft. (well ok, one does mention a link to a 404 error)
tokenadult 12y ago
To all my friends here on Hacker News: Over a few years, I prepared a FAQ document on company hiring procedures for questions that come up here on Hacker News all the time about legal and effective hiring procedures. Most companies use lousy procedures for hiring workers, and that throws away competitive advantage. There is an optimal way to hire, and a century of research on what it is. Rather than repeat all my previous keystrokes here, I'll just link[1] to an earlier version of the FAQ. If you don't want even to follow a link to a very popular comment, let me just pass on here the summary of the FAQ: EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: If you are hiring for any kind of job in the United States, prefer a work-sample test as your hiring procedure. If you are hiring in most other parts of the world, use a work-sample test in combination with a general mental ability test. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4613543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4613543 I'm happy to answer follow-up questions about this. It's better for companies and it's better for capable workers for companies to learn how to hire smarter.
nstart 12y ago
Last June I started work with a software engineering company that was using meteorjs heavily for their new product and php and java for their main product. Front end was standard jquery. At the time of joining, I had only ever used java, and that too in university for a project on multi threading/parallel processing. In about half a month I was acquainted with the basics of meteor and node js, and within a month I was completely up to speed with the intricacies of the development enivronment. (not all of them. By up to speed I mean, I had figured out where to look when I hit a gotcha). This included mongo db which I had never used till I joined. I then shifted time to working both on the new product and the backend of their old product. I was using PHP and a framework (I can't remember which one) that I had never touched before. Took me about a week and a half to get up to speed before starting to work on the actual product. This isn't some display of talent. I believe that any engineer who understands the fundamentals would do exactly what I did. (Provided they are willing to read documentation without skimming through it). The point here is, I left that company in October. And they've just reopened the position I left vacant. Looking at the list of qualifications and experience required on that list, I couldn't help but think, I would have never thought myself adequate for the job if I had looked at the ad posted since I had never touched any of the stuff they required. Turned out, when it actually comes down to it, it really doesn't matter. This analogy is actually spot on. Languages really do become another shade of paint at some point. And I never really believed in that till a couple of weeks ago when I saw that job posting. Pretty crazy that as an industry we still believe in this kind of hiring process.
- programmernews3 12y ago
  I think you have a great point, although some people are able to do what you did and some are not. Even if some people can do fast just-in-time learning there is value in expertise of the sort described in [0]. [0] http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html
JayInt 12y ago
I think it's a really compelling and quite funny article but to actually make a difference you need the translation. You need the side-by-side comparison and I think people would sit up and go 'ah' and it will change hiring for them. Can someone write this with the real-world situation so 'brown' isn't a guess at [framework/language/methodology]

265 points by adwn 12y ago

aw3c2 12y ago

Stolen from http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650...

mtmail 12y ago
The source is listed at the end of the joke so at least there was some attribution.
- mathgeek 12y ago
  I find that in this age of no one reading past the inferred end of the article, it's best to put attribution at the top so as to avoid this very confusion. Just my two pennies.
- doodpants 12y ago
  Anyone who provides a reference on a web page to another web page without making it a clickable link is doing the internet wrong.
- deleted 12y ago
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illumen 12y ago

Gold.

robobro 12y ago
I find it a bit less shiny every time I see it.

_justin 12y ago

I have read this before, and I see the source is attributed. If so, why is this link on HN and not the original. Seems a way to gather some page hits.

placebo 12y ago

Love it :) Sad thing is that it hit the nail on the head so accurately (pardon the pun)

mathgeek 12y ago
You really rocked it there.
- Demiurge 12y ago
  Very piercing commentary.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

mlamat 12y ago

I will attach this to my resume.

stared 12y ago

Then it means that you are applying to a wrong company (already consumed by bureaucracy, with little tech value or understanding)... I remember my programming interviews as the most meritocratic ones (much more than e.g. in academia, where there is a problem that one is have too low high, or different official credentials).

DanielBMarkham 12y ago

It's worse than that. The CHAOS study, among others, shows that 80%+ of all software projects are viewed as failures by the people who pay for them. Meanwhile you come onto boards like HN or reddit and instead of talking about how to establish and keep trust with the folks writing the checks, everybody's talking frameworks and tools. So picture a subdivision where 80% of the houses are broken down, priced too high, incomplete, or put together haphazardly. Now stop at one of the houses where the building crew is still there and watch them spend all day talking about the nail-o-matic 200psi nailgun or the robot auto-roofer that the carpenters in the next town are using. The situation is sad from every angle.

alricb 12y ago
> So picture a subdivision where 80% of the houses are broken down, priced too high, incomplete, or put together haphazardly. Well, in a typical subdivision, this is actually the case. Construction quality for housing in the US and Canada is woeful, though a lot of it isn't the carpenters' fault (but some of it is).
hobs 12y ago
Yes, but unsurprisingly so. It is much easier to think that the project was a failure because tool choice instead of the actual reasons projects fail; of people who are not good enough to complete the project (junior carpenters put in charge of a skyscraper), management who wants people to build some impossible project on a tiny deadline (carpenter contracted to build stairway to heaven by October), or one of the other reasons software projects fail. All of those problems require people and process work, not just technology, but as one of the biggest problems of tech is that we often see it as a panacea, we just think the new framework will somehow gloss over these major deficiencies.
k__ 12y ago
It's easier to blame a heap of software than yourself. I've worked with really horrible frameworks in the past and most devs were like "well I wrote a wrapper to get the ugly stuff out of the way and then build it the right way", most of the time they didn't even bother to learn how things work.
12y ago

alricb 12y ago

Are interview questions this irrelevant? Because there are relevant questions you could ask a carpenter in an interview, like if they've worked with I-joists, whether they know what a nailing schedule is, whether they're familiar with a "California corner", their health and safety knowledge, etc.

geon 12y ago
It is obviously an exaggeration, but Java/Javascript confusion is a real thing.
Swizec 12y ago
As you can tell, this article was not written by somebody who knows carpentry. It's also supposed to be funny. But yes and no, interview questions can be this irrelevant. This is a litmus test. It tells you that you should treat this company as a client, not as an employer, play the expert card, and charge 3x your normal rate. Because they don't know what they're doing, and will likely gladly pay somebody who does know and can explain it to "the suits".
perdunov 12y ago
I would say that passing interviews is a separate skill, different than doing actual work. They are not completely different, of course, but different. This implies that the irrelevance is pretty high, otherwise you would not need to prepare specifically for interviews.
- vonmoltke 12y ago
  That is a serious flaw in the typical interview process. An interview is supposed to screen people based on whether or not they can do actual work. If you are really screening for some parallel skill, then your hires are going to be a crapshoot.
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  This is true of any job though. Even though there is a difference between "interview coding" and "real life coding" an advantage of our profession is that we can have interviews that can give more insight into how someone will do their job than just asking them questions. Imagine hiring a manager - you can't "whiteboard" management.

stillsut 12y ago

This actually will happen if you speak with an HR rep for insurance predictive modelling: -So do you have experience with SAS? -Yes, but mostly I model in R. They are sister languages. -So how much SAS, how much R? -Mostly R as it is widely held to be a superior language -But SAS you can do more with! -Ahh, if Big-Famous-Tech-Company-X wanted to do stat modelling they use R, not SAS. Again, anyone who does statistical modelling knows this. -But we pay for SAS -Yeah, sorry about that...

italophil 12y ago
If they want SAS that is their choice. It's like asking a carpenter to built a cupboard and he answers: "I'd rather build a shelf, it will hold your dishes just as well."
- wtbob 12y ago
  No, it's more like asking a carpenter to build a cupboard, but when he brings a hammer to the worksite you ask him to use a rubber mallet instead. Sure, one could drive nails with a rubber mallet—but who'd want to? Likewise, who would want to use an inferior language or library when superior ones exist?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - omegaham 12y ago
    > Likewise, who would want to use an inferior language or library when superior ones exist? My guess is that the existing codebase is in inferiorLanguage, and it would be a massive pain in the ass to rewrite it in superiorLanguage. The carpentry analogy doesn't really work here because you can stop using the rubber mallet at any time. You can't just switch frameworks or languages when you feel like it.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  No, it is not like that at all. It is like asking a Carpenter to build a cupboard and thinking he's unqualified for the job if he's only ever used Craftsman screwdrivers because that means he can't use Husky screwdrivers. Its also like deciding to hire an HR guy based on what brands of keyboards or pens he's used.

pamparosendo 12y ago

Just great!

bmoresbest55 12y ago

I really enjoyed the post. I reminded me a lot of this Youtube video(http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg). I understand this is a comical post but as the son of a carpenter and understanding the profession decently well I would say these are none of the questions that would be asked of a carpenter. There are however many important questions a person would need to answer to be hired as a carpenter or more likely be able to join a union. There they would be able to get experience and training. Then the company the union carpenter work for already knows the skills and abilities they have and there is really no need for any interview. Any GC or sub asks for guys to do a job. The local sends them the qualified guys. Pretty simple actually.

s_kilk 12y ago
> I really enjoyed the post. I reminded me a lot of this Youtube video(http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg http://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg). Jesus, that's painfully real.
delinka 12y ago
"...these are none of the questions that would be asked of a carpenter." That's exactly the point. But it parallels the useless questions so often asked of the general computer programmer by the Corporate HR Recruiter Drone .

henrik_w 12y ago

"Well, I’m a carpenter, so I’ve worked with all kinds of wood, you know, and there are some differences, but I think if you’re a good carpenter …" In my experience, a good programmer in one language is very likely a good programmer in another language as well. There are a lot more commonalities than some people realize. That's the reason why I'm sceptical of claims such as "the programmer knowledge half-life is X years". More in "Programmer Knowledge" http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/15/programmer-knowledge/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/15/programmer-knowledge/

seanwilson 12y ago
I'd rather hire a programmer that knew many languages than one who only knew one language really well though. Once you've learned a few frameworks and languages, you get much better at picking up new ones quickly because you've seen the same concepts somewhere else already.
- weixiyen 12y ago
  I've always gone for the ones who really knew one language inside and out. The reason is actually very simple, they have demonstrated exceptional skill to dive deep into one language, so they should be able to do the same in another language. The jack-of-all-trades people usually are much riskier hires as they don't always understand how deep they can go in any particular language, thus are unable to fully assess what they don't know, and require much more guidance as a result.
  - seanwilson 12y ago
    So my reasoning is that if you know some Java you can pick up C# easily, if you know some JavaScript you can pick up Python easily etc. If you've stuck to a single language, it's going to take you much longer as you're having to learn new concepts and it's also rare I work on projects where only a single language is being used. Everyone should aim to learn enough languages that they have at least some experience of OOP, functional programming, dynamic types, strong types and SQL in my opinion.
  - 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

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spiralpolitik 12y ago

Accurate, but missed the part where the carpenter is asked to build a cabinet by drawing it on the whiteboard.

TamDenholm 12y ago
Yeah exactly, was once given pencil and paper and asked to write some code. That was early on in my career, so even though i knew it was ridiculous, i didnt have enough confidence to tell them they're being idiots. At this point in my career however, i'm far more jaded about stupid interview techniques like that and will refuse to do them unless provided with a computer.
- thomaskcr 12y ago
  Why wouldn't you just do it? I can understand if they're nit-picking syntax but I personally ask people to write out algorithms/code on the board all the time in interviews. I don't care about the code, I want to see them think through a problem. They can use any for syntax they want, even mix and match things like brackets and indentation or how control structures are defined (for i = 1 to 10 { .. } ), or use a function outside of the current abstraction level without writing it as long as they say what they're doing. If you can't write out an algorithm or some classes that work together without a compiler/interpreter, then you're just guess and checking as you work and not thinking through what you do ahead of time. I can't program without google, but I can write out my implementation just fine -- that's what people are interested in. I don't really get how I'm being an idiot wanting to explore how someone solves a problem in the medium they work (code) -- I'm not a human compiler so I obviously don't care if their program compiles or is even in a real language, as long as it gets across what they are trying to do and how they would do it. Also -- you'll need to deal with stupid people forever, the way your comment is worded it sounds like you think you're smarter and better than everyone else and are "above this silliness". When interviewing I'm jaded about people who can't interact with people who they view as "below them" -- you'd hopefully not even make it in the door for an interview if you can't politely answer a question you think is dumb. Like 90% of interactions for software developers outside of their dept are answering dumb questions... I may need to add dumb questions to my interviews to catch this... Edit: Also -- can you explain the code you've written/your implementation? How do you include me in your problem solving? What type of questions do you or don't you ask while doing it? Where do you start/how do you start? If the HR person is there, can you explain what you're doing to them? How do you take suggestions? How do you break down your objects (this gives soooo much information about background, I can tell a lot about a developer based on how they name their classes, like people who have worked with only activerecord style classes). I can follow up with a refactoring change (substitute this for that in this situation, decide based on a configuration file - does this require a significant redesign?) I mean come on... it gives so much information about how someone works, I think its dumber not to ask some type of question with writing "code" - it just gives so much information about a candidate that would be hard to get one question at a time. This one question can infinitely expand and lets them interact about something they know/are comfortable with (the solution to their problem). Don't be silly.

belorn 12y ago

A clear difference between a carpenter and a programmer is the liability inherent in the work. A carpenter can't just produce a minimum viable product that just happens to break down as soon as a bird land on it, or leaks water as if it was constructed like a sieve. Hiring a carpenter is a comparable safe thing to do, as the worst thing a lawful carpenter can do is overcharge his clients/employer. A programmer on other hand is not liable for anything. If it breaks or leaks information at the easiest provocation, then its not the programmer who might loose money. All risk is put on the employer or customer, and as such, it becomes their responsibility to identify and test a programmer before spending money. As a result, you get questions which are mostly irrelevant to the task at hand, but which might sorts out high risk vs low risk. If I hired a carpenter under those conditions, I would ask what brand of paint they buy. If its an expensive one, it might hint towards a professional.

sopooneo 12y ago
Your logic makes sense, but it seems like every high school I've ever been in or heard about that had just recently been built leaked rain like a sieve.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  That's because of flawed design usually. Architects cook up these lovely stylish renderings that the school boards find inspiring (particularly since it isn't their cash), which often involve flat or complex roofs. Fast forward to the post-construction era, and that inspiring building now has 10 inches of water or ice on the roof. Water being water, it eventually gets in, usually around flashing.
icebraining 12y ago
So if a salaried carpenter does a shoddy work, does the employer get reimbursed? I find that very hard to believe.

linker3000 12y ago

...and architects sometimes have to go to great lengths before they are allowed to work on your castle: http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/698061/hiorne-tower-nr-arundel-west-sussex/ http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/698061/hiorne-tower-nr-arun... ...and for sci fi fans who think the Tower looks familiar: http://www.doctorwholocations.net/locations/arundelparktower http://www.doctorwholocations.net/locations/arundelparktower

lordnacho 12y ago

This is so true. I see a lot of job ads that seem to require very specific experience, but where anyone in that field could do the job. If you just make up eg 4 different types of technology, and put a few things in each bracket: [SVN, Git, Mercurial, CVS] [MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, MSSQL] [AMQP, MQTT, STOMP, RabbitMQ] [Java, C#, C++, ObjC] Now if someone came along and said they'd solved a domain problem (eg trading systems) with one of each of those, I would more or less believe they could do it with any of the others, with a bit of time to get used to things (particularly c++). But if you don't believe that, ie if you decide the person must have a specific combination, then you've just shattered the potential pool of applicants into 256 little pieces. The other thing that annoys me is the pettiness of the interview questions. So many things that you could easily google can be used to stump anyone. What's the default implementation of GetHash() in c#? I actually got asked this once. Then there's the other way to do things, which is to do an online coding assessment. I guess this gets rid of the FizzBuzz failures, but it tends to be a problem that's too small to see if you're about to dig a hole.

barrkel 12y ago
What's the default implementation of GetHash() in c#? I actually like this question (not that I've ever asked it before), because it teases out how well someone knows .net and C#. The specific implementation of GetHashCode isn't what's interesting. It's whether you know that .net implements reference vs value equality by default, whether you know you really do need to override GetHashCode if you override Equals, testing if you know the fundamental requirements for objects you might use as keys in a Dictionary. The specific number returned and its relationship with the identity of the object - that's not important, and is truly not something you could be expected to know. But you're ability to think things through, and know the environment - yes.
- jhall1468 12y ago
  Bull. It teases out if someone happens to know the GetHash() implementation in C#. Their knowledge of .NET and C# can, in no way, be determined by one stupid question about the implementation of a specific function in C#. Evidence of that fact is in your actual response: I could now answer that question, having never used .NET or C#.

hmottestad 12y ago

Seems like this is the original: http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/Default.aspx?blog=entry.7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/Default.aspx?blog=entry.7c334037...

frostmatthew 12y ago
How can it be "the original" when it states in the opening paragraph I didn't write this, so I can't take credit for it?

brickmort 12y ago

ouch! As someone who's been on an 8-month long job hunt, this hits too close to home.

sjclemmy 12y ago

As someone who occasionally has hiring responsibility I sympathise with both interviewer and interviewee. It is extremely tricky to determine if the person you have interviewed is going to fit the bill. I've hired people who I thought would be a great fit for permanent roles but turned out to be the worst kind of procrastinating, one trick ponies who caused more problems than they fixed. In a recent situation I had a very specific set of requirements for very specific reasons. The company is .net all the way and has a couple of permanent developers who know only VB and have no C# experience. Because of a large influx of work, these developers needed some additional resource for a short period of time. I wanted to try and increase the skill level of the permanent developers as they are not very familiar with design patterns and 'modern' techniques. To this end, I wanted C# developers with familiarity with design patterns and modern best practice to come in and develop in VB. I didn't care if they hadn't used VB recently at all. But I did care that they knew .net. I don't have time for them to learn .net. So I can't have someone from the Java world, it would just take too long. But at the same time, I'd rather not have a VB only person, as they tend (and I am generalising, I know) to not understand much about design patterns and they don't tend to have broad programming knowledge. When interviewing for a specific role, you have to think very hard about what it is you are trying to do - and don't just fall back on generic cut and paste questions.

jasonwocky 12y ago
> When interviewing for a specific role, you have to think very hard about what it is you are trying to do - and don't just fall back on generic cut and paste questions. I think this is true, but it raises a question about "hiring for a specific role." I find that when companies do this, they're in a reactive mode. Which of course is going to happen from time to time, but the reason memes like the OP get born is because many companies are habitually reactive when it comes to hiring. I don't follow a lot of sports, but I follow NFL football. Each year, the teams get to "draft" (a/k/a hire) incoming players from college. When it comes to the NFL draft, there are two prevailing philosophies: "Draft for Need" and "Draft Best Player Available". Without question, teams that stick to more of a BPA approach tend to have longer term success. Teams that draft for need sometimes get that player that helps them get over the hump and win a championship, but more often they're trading away long-term greatness for some short-term pain relief. I think hiring for software teams (and just about anything where there is a lot of variance in depth and breadth of skill) follows the same pattern. Hiring for a specific role is an antipattern (albeit sometimes a necessary one). If you have a very specific role to fill, perhaps a freelancer or a consultant might be a better fit for easing the short-term pain. Then you let them go as soon as they're no longer needed.

vog 12y ago

Original discussion to the original article posted by Jason Bock (which was merely copied by Dawood Sangameshwari without proper attribution [1]): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819413 [1] There is some attribution a the bottom of the page, but it isn't proper. It contains neither the original author's name, nor is it a clickable link. It's just a plain text URL. Better than nothing, but still the most shabby way of "attribution" I've ever seen.

frostmatthew 12y ago
At the top of http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650... Bock says I didn't write this, so I can't take credit for it so I'm not sure failing to include his name or clickable link really qualifies as "shabby" attribution.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- vog 12y ago
  At least James Bock added a (clickable) link to the closest source he could find. Dawood Sangameshwari could have taken at least that one.

utxaa 12y ago

of course, this happens, but when it happens just end the interview. would you like to work in such a place?

fivedogit 12y ago

I like the metaphor and style, but I think he left some good parts out. Such as (and yes I was asked these): - The ridiculously broad yes or no honor question (e.g. "So are you familiar with data structures and design patterns?”) - The ridiculously specific-to-the-company question (e.g. " Here is a batch of the data our systems generate. How would you process it for triggering of requests to our api?") - The vaguely worded trick question: "OK that looks good... But how would you do it if you didn't have all these nice Java objects and methods?") - The Prove-it Take-home that doesn't change anything. "We use ruby and you've mostly used Java, do this ruby take home assignment." Two days later. "Your assignment looks great but we're really looking for someone with more Ruby experience." - The post-coding interview, resume-based rejection AKA "why the fuck did you ask me to come in in the first place?" rejection. (E.g. "Your coding interview went well but you've jumped around to different projects and we're not sure you wouldn't leave us if given the chance.") - The didn't drink enough kool-aid rejection. "Don't know the CEO's full bio? Don't know the intricate details of our public API? Didn't read our blog post from this morning? For shame."

Throwaway1224 12y ago

No mention of H1Bs in this hiring related post?

jethro_tell 12y ago

Man this is the strangest thing to me. I used to be a carpenter. I would show up at your job site with my tools, you might ask me a couple questions, I've had guys ask me to lay out a wall or two off the prints. Call a reference to see if I show up to work. Then I get the job. Usually, doing something myself or my boss never had done before, and we would figure it out off the prints, and build it. I just go turned down for a job I was perfectly qualified for because I 'didn't seem eager enough.' Other notes from the interviewer said 'I'd be ready to go day one' and 'seems easy going and easy to get along with' What the fuck is wrong with people? When did working at your shit company have to be my passion instead of my job?

freshyill 12y ago
And the real kicker is that no company really gives a shit about anyone. The expect complete loyalty, but they have none in return.
- jethro_tell 12y ago
  Yeah, that kinda bums me out.
dwc 12y ago
> Usually, doing something myself or my boss never had done before, and we would figure it out off the prints, and build it. Yes, of course. That's been my entire career in software as well. And I'd suggest that's what people should be looking for: the ability to build something they've never built before.
- jethro_tell 12y ago
  If someone's already built it, I'm not that interested in it.
jonahx 12y ago
In fairness, the analogy would be: carpentering job = 2 week programming contract job and in that case the expectations in the programming job would be more lax, and few people would care about your "passion for the company." Even controlling for that difference, I still think you make a good point. Though it's probably true for modern corporate business culture in general, and not specific to programming.

je42 12y ago

Depending on the job; i find the deeper somebody knows his/her special field the better he/she can adapt to another field. I.e. if you really know the ins/outs of the Java, the VM, changes of the language over time. You will be able to pick up C#, python f.e.

V-2 12y ago

This answer on Programmers Stack Exchange sums the problem up very nicely: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/1847 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/1847 > A common HR thing that drives me nuts when I'm job hunting: the implicit assumption that all coding skills are language-specific, that there is no software engineering expertise that transcends command sets. That ten years experience in Java and another five in Perl mean you'd be completely useless on a project that uses, say, C#. > "Yes, there's a learning curve. But I've made harder transitions than this. I'll make you a deal, pay me 80% for the first month and at the end of that time if I'm not ... oh, wait, we're not actually having this conversation, because your HR monkey simply deleted my application."

derekp7 12y ago
I think that's why a lot of companies are now doing contract-to-hire. First they let the contracting agency do the pre-screening, and if the employee doesn't work out the contract just doesn't get renewed. Only problem is for the employee -- it is difficult during the contract phase, if they don't get any feedback if they will be converted to an FTE, and the lack of benefits. So for the hiring company, they will no be able to steal away any good developers who are currently fully employed.

pargon 12y ago

They forgot to ask about the deeply theoretical questions that the carpenter wouldn't actually use at the job. "Now could you whiteboard for me how a table saw is built?" "I've never had to build a table saw." "I just want to see how you think."

blueatlas 12y ago

I came across this [1] job posting last week. Made me realize how ridiculous the knowledge and experience expected of a web developer has become. I particularly like bullet 6, "Team-oriented, flexible, and able to work in an ambiguous and/or changing work environment." Really? [1] http://jobs.hbispace.com/web/95148/job_2-15.html?cacheBuster=6420099 http://jobs.hbispace.com/web/95148/job_2-15.html?cacheBuster...

snsr 12y ago
That's a good example of outright incompetence; the author clearly has no idea what they're talking about.
mtbcoder 12y ago
DHTML? I haven't heard that term used in a while. I think can translate that job posting as such: "In order to save costs, we've trimmed all developer positions except one. You will be the sole developer responsible for everything we do. You will always need to be on-call to work, even if it's formatting a Wordpress post for an editor on a Saturday night. You will work long hours but we'll only pay for 40/week, no overtime. Your salary will be peanuts and will not cover the cost of living in Washington, DC. Be a team player and join us."

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

whybroke 12y ago

Given that both articles on that site were swiped from elsewhere without attribution, perhaps that particular "carpenter" should be asked about theft. (well ok, one does mention a link to a 404 error)

tokenadult 12y ago

To all my friends here on Hacker News: Over a few years, I prepared a FAQ document on company hiring procedures for questions that come up here on Hacker News all the time about legal and effective hiring procedures. Most companies use lousy procedures for hiring workers, and that throws away competitive advantage. There is an optimal way to hire, and a century of research on what it is. Rather than repeat all my previous keystrokes here, I'll just link[1] to an earlier version of the FAQ. If you don't want even to follow a link to a very popular comment, let me just pass on here the summary of the FAQ: EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: If you are hiring for any kind of job in the United States, prefer a work-sample test as your hiring procedure. If you are hiring in most other parts of the world, use a work-sample test in combination with a general mental ability test. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4613543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4613543 I'm happy to answer follow-up questions about this. It's better for companies and it's better for capable workers for companies to learn how to hire smarter.

nstart 12y ago

Last June I started work with a software engineering company that was using meteorjs heavily for their new product and php and java for their main product. Front end was standard jquery. At the time of joining, I had only ever used java, and that too in university for a project on multi threading/parallel processing. In about half a month I was acquainted with the basics of meteor and node js, and within a month I was completely up to speed with the intricacies of the development enivronment. (not all of them. By up to speed I mean, I had figured out where to look when I hit a gotcha). This included mongo db which I had never used till I joined. I then shifted time to working both on the new product and the backend of their old product. I was using PHP and a framework (I can't remember which one) that I had never touched before. Took me about a week and a half to get up to speed before starting to work on the actual product. This isn't some display of talent. I believe that any engineer who understands the fundamentals would do exactly what I did. (Provided they are willing to read documentation without skimming through it). The point here is, I left that company in October. And they've just reopened the position I left vacant. Looking at the list of qualifications and experience required on that list, I couldn't help but think, I would have never thought myself adequate for the job if I had looked at the ad posted since I had never touched any of the stuff they required. Turned out, when it actually comes down to it, it really doesn't matter. This analogy is actually spot on. Languages really do become another shade of paint at some point. And I never really believed in that till a couple of weeks ago when I saw that job posting. Pretty crazy that as an industry we still believe in this kind of hiring process.

programmernews3 12y ago
I think you have a great point, although some people are able to do what you did and some are not. Even if some people can do fast just-in-time learning there is value in expertise of the sort described in [0]. [0] http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html

JayInt 12y ago

I think it's a really compelling and quite funny article but to actually make a difference you need the translation. You need the side-by-side comparison and I think people would sit up and go 'ah' and it will change hiring for them. Can someone write this with the real-world situation so 'brown' isn't a guess at [framework/language/methodology]