9 ms·

Microsoft Makes Clever Moves

109 points by chmars 12y ago

samspenc 12y ago
I wasn't sure what to expect after seeing the title. But I will admit, the author makes an interesting point about how <spoiler alert> Microsoft could "embrace and extend" Android <end spoiler alert>. But: I personally don't see that happening. Even if Microsoft was able to influence the forked versions of Android, how would that help Microsoft's bottom line? And at this stage, how much damage could they inflict to the real Android, which is now running on almost all smartphones except those from Microsoft or Apple? The PC industry in the late 80s was a competitive marketplace, and there were real competitors to Microsoft's business till it basically took over the PC market. I think the mobile industry has pretty much entered that phase now.
- Alterlife 12y ago
  The big problem with Android is the lack of updates for popular phones. Love it, or hate it, cyanogen does address that. More significantly, manufacturers have tested the waters with cyanogenmod devices -- oneplus one, Oppo n1, Micromax's Yu Yureka. I for one would be more likely to buy a cyanogenmod supported phone than a 'touchwiz', 'optimus' or "Windows 8" phone if I was assured of two year updatability. And how would this help Microsoft's bottom line? Android... with Bing.
  - pests 12y ago
    Not only Bing but Microsoft could roll out their own api-equivalent to Google Play Services in order to support third-party apps developed with a dependence on the Google ecosystem.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - fpgeek 12y ago
    For popular devices, the bottleneck with Android updates isn't really the resources to develop them, it's the carrier certification process. You can see that when the same device gets updates on some countries/carriers and not others. CyanogenMod doesn't address that, it just evades it via unlocked bootloaders and flashing. The more official they try to be, the more they will run into the same problems.
    - yuliyp 12y ago
      Why is carrier certification a thing? The carrier supplies a SIM card and as long as the device cna properly use its antenna and the SIM card the carrier should not need to do anything else.
      - Infinitesimus 12y ago
        Among other things, 'carrier certification' also includes installing 5-10 apps the user will never use and adding restrictions they deem fit. Plus, the certification is to make sure that the device updated doesn't bork the phone's service (or so I'm told, no experience in that industry)
7ewis 12y ago
I really don't want Microsoft to start controlling Cyanogen. I like it the way it is - with Google services and apps!
sheetjs 12y ago
> While Microsoft Office for mobile is a satisfying success ... Are there numbers supporting this claim? A cursory search revealed no publicly released usage statistics
- kryptiskt 12y ago
  Google Play says 10,000,000-50,000,000 installs: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.office.officehub https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft....
- Zigurd 12y ago
  It works. It's a little bigger and slower than Drive apps. But not bloated. There were a couple oddities like OneDrive having a separate account. But nothing that would turn me off. The free version had not been crippled. Microsoft appears to be serious about monetizing via their ecosystem and are not holding back on features. The UI is clean and truly "touch first." Microsoft did a great job.
- mark_l_watson 12y ago
  I am just one data point, but: I am pleasantly surprised at how nice the Office 365 Android apps are. OneNote (a separate install) is also worth trying.
damianknz 12y ago
I made the switch from an Android Sony to a Lumia 530 this Christmas. Apart from the LCD TN screen the Lumia is easily the best phone I've ever had at half the price.
- barrkel 12y ago
  You can't make a statement like that without qualifying it. Why is it easily the best phone? What do you use your phone for? I know I very rarely use my phone for phone calls. For me, it's all about apps and the capabilities those apps have. My own phones have all been Nexuses. The reasons being that I consider Apple fascist[1], and Android is the only alternative with the combination of lots of apps and a way of replacing both launcher and default applications with third party apps. As far as I know, Windows Phone's launcher can't be switched out, in fact I just did a quick search and it seems like not even the default browser can be replaced! It looks like Windows Phone is almost as restrictive as Apple, except with fewer apps. How would that make for a better phone, never mind "easily the best"? Now, I'm no fan of Google, and I don't like the direction they're taking Android in, cutting down the functionality of AOSP, and dragging more into their proprietary apps and libraries. It's just that Android is the least worst choice right, now, as I see it.[2] [1] Controlling, capricious, patronizing, "do it our way or get lost" mentality; and a brand that is a magnet for narcissists everywhere. [2] MS primarily cares about money; it's copying Apple because it sees Apple making money. But Apple doesn't care about money; it thinks it's better than you, and it attracts people who like to think of themselves as better than other people, with more discerning taste in expensive status symbols. Making lots of money is a side-effect of Apple's strategy, because it's harnessing a narcissism latent in modern individualistic consumer society. MS's strategy won't work because it's not appealing to narcissists. Google, meanwhile, is following Microsoft's 1980s strategy to Apple's 1980s strategy.
  - Kattywumpus 12y ago
    I'm not the OP, but I am a Windows Phone user, and I love it. Obviously, it may not be your cup of tea, but it has an appeal other phones don't for me. First, I don't think MS is "copying Apple". Using Live Tiles is a very different experience than poking at icons on the iPhone. And MS isn't marketing to "narcissists" -- the best selling Windows Phones are all at the very low end of the market. The fit and polish you can get on a low-end Windows Phone are absolutely phenomenal. I bought one just to play with because Amazon had the Lumia 520 for $29 during the holidays, and got hooked on the platform. Now I'm buying a slightly higher-end model and passing along the 520 to a relative who is still using a flip phone. As a developer, there are a ton of opportunities on the Windows Phone market. It's relatively small, but the key word there is relatively. There are a lot of open niches and a userbase that is hungry and appreciative.
shmerl 12y ago
> Perhaps they’ve been looking in the wrong direction and can return to their “trusted” Embrace and Extend tactics. Does he refer to the despicable practice of "embrace, extend and extinguish"[1]? It's one of the most disgusting stains on Microsoft's reputation (along with their lock-in and standards hijacking practices). I'm surprised author even suggests to do that as something acceptable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish
- teh_klev 12y ago
  Pretty sure he means just the embrace and extend bits.
  - shmerl 12y ago
    The whole thing given Microsoft's history has a very sinister connotation. The author even puts "trusted" in quotes, as if hinting that one shouldn't do such a thing really.
    - teh_klev 12y ago
      Journalists and their "scare" quotes. I think people need to get over that period in Microsoft's history. To be honest Oracle, Google, Facebook et al aren't exactly angels when it comes to their own acquire and bury practices.
      - shmerl 12y ago
        > I think people need to get over that period in Microsoft's history. Are you saying they righted their wrongs in this regard? I don't think so. They are slightly better than before may be, but they have a lot of old baggage left. I can't say they stopped their lock-in tactics already and became friendly to open standards. Others have their wrongs as well, but the article is about Microsoft.
        blumkvist 12y ago
FreakyT 12y ago
I find it somewhat disingenuous when the CEO of Cyanogen makes claims about people wanting use CyanogenMod without the Google Apps. Look at any custom-built CyanogenMod roms out there -- every one of them includes instructions on flashing the Google apps. The only company that has had any success with a forked Android is Amazon, and I suspect that's less about writing replacement apps (as I guess Cyanogen plans to do) and more about Amazon's existing massive market power.
- Zigurd 12y ago
  Office for Android doesn't suck. That was a big missing piece.
  - serve_yay 12y ago
    But why is MS any better or different than Google?
    - smacktoward 12y ago
      If you've already bought into Office on the desktop, it's appealing to be able to have first-party support for it on mobile too, rather than have to deal with converting back and forth with Google Docs or some other non-MS office application.
    - Zigurd 12y ago
      For one thing, Google isn't fully back in China. They are putting together an ecosystem together with local partners, but Microsoft never left China. That's a big enough market to justify OEMs using Office on Android.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  > CEO of Cyanogen makes claims about people wanting use CyanogenMod without the Google Apps. You know, China exists; Google apps are blocked in an entire country that just happens to be the largest single country market for mobile. > The only company that has had any success with a forked Android is Amazon That is definitely not true. Xiaomi? Anyone selling Android in China (which excludes Amazon)?
_nedR 12y ago
Microsoft is adopting the "Services, not devices" (or OSes) strategy envisaged two years ago (http://stratechery.com/2013/services-not-devices/ http://stratechery.com/2013/services-not-devices/). Under Ballmer, Microsoft had a brief identity crisis, trying to be a vertically integrated company like Apple. It is clear that Satya Nadella is taking Microsoft the other way to become a horizontally-integrated company like Google (http://stratechery.com/2013/understanding-google/)by http://stratechery.com/2013/understanding-google/)by open-sourcing .Net platform, to support competing platforms like Linux, releasing Office and Outlook on all mobile platforms (Windows, iOS, Android), focusing on cloud services, and deprioritizing Windows.
- frozenport 12y ago
  >>like Google But in an ironic way! Both companies are the foundations upon which the digital age sits, everybody runs Windows/Office and everybody uses Google search. MS and Google can do whatever the heck they want and fail often without consequence.
  - Padding 12y ago
    For "relatively small" values of "fail" .. like everyone else. It's just that "relatively small" for Google is still pretty huge in absolute numbers. I bet Google too can't fail in crucial/major ways like failing keeping google.com online..
  - CmonDev 12y ago
    "...everybody runs Windows/Office and everybody uses Google search..." Several years ago you could add "...and everybody uses an iPhone...". Well, not anymore.
    - louhike 12y ago
      I disagree, even if they sell a lot. The iPhone was far from common because of its high price.
    - slightmarginal 12y ago
Olivier26 12y ago
They do with Cyanogen what they did with Xenix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  Just like they did with Nokia what they did with Sendo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sendo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sendo
anjc 12y ago
I don't know why people would suggest that Microsoft fork Android. Windows Phone is by far and away the best experience i've had on a phone, and my Lumia 930 is the nicest phone i've used (after coming from a series of iPhones). Don't get me started on the Surface Pro 3, which is probably the most impressive device i've ever had. Microsoft's devices strategy wont be clear until after Windows 10 is launched, I feel, and until a full product line is evident. And you'd be being very silly to discount them at this stage. I feel like people on tech sites/forums experience observation bias because of, maybe, a tendency towards using OSX and Linux, and they seem to forget that Microsoft are utterly dominant in many areas. They've also entered new industries in the last decade and became dominant in short order too.
- wdr1 12y ago
  > I don't know why people would suggest that Microsoft fork Android. I think the most obvious reason is lack of adoption, both by users & developers. There are lots of apps out there for Android & iOS. Microsoft has such a small market share and, in the eyes of many outside the Microsoft ecosystem, have little change of growing it. Meaning the cost-benefit for developing Windows versions of your apps just isn't there.
- smacktoward 12y ago
  They suggest it because providing the best user experience appears not to matter much, sales-wise. People keep on buying Android and iOS devices no matter how good Windows Phone becomes. In many ways Windows Phone reminds me of the rebooted Palm Inc. webOS provided a far superior user experience to iOS and Android circa 2008-9, but in the end "meh" hardware and limited carrier support weighed them down more than great UX could lift them up. Microsoft has more money to burn trying to break that cycle than Palm did, of course -- but on the other hand iOS and Android are far more solidly entrenched in the top 2 positions than they were seven years ago.
  - anjc 12y ago
    Yeah I get you with the Palm comparison, but I do think that the top end Lumia's are definitely not 'meh' hardware. I recently purchased the 930, so I can see a way Microsoft can increase sales immediately, and you hit the nail on the head. Work with the bloody carriers, but at all levels other than distribution. I went to several mobile phone shops and every single one effectively said "don't buy a flagship windows phone mate, have a look at this cheap shitty mess of an android one". Send some bloody reps around, interact with carriers, incentivise them, and sales will immediately go up.

109 points by chmars 12y ago

I wasn't sure what to expect after seeing the title. But I will admit, the author makes an interesting point about how <spoiler alert> Microsoft could "embrace and extend" Android <end spoiler alert>. But: I personally don't see that happening. Even if Microsoft was able to influence the forked versions of Android, how would that help Microsoft's bottom line? And at this stage, how much damage could they inflict to the real Android, which is now running on almost all smartphones except those from Microsoft or Apple? The PC industry in the late 80s was a competitive marketplace, and there were real competitors to Microsoft's business till it basically took over the PC market. I think the mobile industry has pretty much entered that phase now.

Alterlife 12y ago
The big problem with Android is the lack of updates for popular phones. Love it, or hate it, cyanogen does address that. More significantly, manufacturers have tested the waters with cyanogenmod devices -- oneplus one, Oppo n1, Micromax's Yu Yureka. I for one would be more likely to buy a cyanogenmod supported phone than a 'touchwiz', 'optimus' or "Windows 8" phone if I was assured of two year updatability. And how would this help Microsoft's bottom line? Android... with Bing.
- pests 12y ago
  Not only Bing but Microsoft could roll out their own api-equivalent to Google Play Services in order to support third-party apps developed with a dependence on the Google ecosystem.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- fpgeek 12y ago
  For popular devices, the bottleneck with Android updates isn't really the resources to develop them, it's the carrier certification process. You can see that when the same device gets updates on some countries/carriers and not others. CyanogenMod doesn't address that, it just evades it via unlocked bootloaders and flashing. The more official they try to be, the more they will run into the same problems.
  - yuliyp 12y ago
    Why is carrier certification a thing? The carrier supplies a SIM card and as long as the device cna properly use its antenna and the SIM card the carrier should not need to do anything else.
    - Infinitesimus 12y ago
      Among other things, 'carrier certification' also includes installing 5-10 apps the user will never use and adding restrictions they deem fit. Plus, the certification is to make sure that the device updated doesn't bork the phone's service (or so I'm told, no experience in that industry)

7ewis 12y ago

I really don't want Microsoft to start controlling Cyanogen. I like it the way it is - with Google services and apps!

sheetjs 12y ago

> While Microsoft Office for mobile is a satisfying success ... Are there numbers supporting this claim? A cursory search revealed no publicly released usage statistics

kryptiskt 12y ago
Google Play says 10,000,000-50,000,000 installs: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.office.officehub https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft....
Zigurd 12y ago
It works. It's a little bigger and slower than Drive apps. But not bloated. There were a couple oddities like OneDrive having a separate account. But nothing that would turn me off. The free version had not been crippled. Microsoft appears to be serious about monetizing via their ecosystem and are not holding back on features. The UI is clean and truly "touch first." Microsoft did a great job.
mark_l_watson 12y ago
I am just one data point, but: I am pleasantly surprised at how nice the Office 365 Android apps are. OneNote (a separate install) is also worth trying.

damianknz 12y ago

I made the switch from an Android Sony to a Lumia 530 this Christmas. Apart from the LCD TN screen the Lumia is easily the best phone I've ever had at half the price.

barrkel 12y ago
You can't make a statement like that without qualifying it. Why is it easily the best phone? What do you use your phone for? I know I very rarely use my phone for phone calls. For me, it's all about apps and the capabilities those apps have. My own phones have all been Nexuses. The reasons being that I consider Apple fascist[1], and Android is the only alternative with the combination of lots of apps and a way of replacing both launcher and default applications with third party apps. As far as I know, Windows Phone's launcher can't be switched out, in fact I just did a quick search and it seems like not even the default browser can be replaced! It looks like Windows Phone is almost as restrictive as Apple, except with fewer apps. How would that make for a better phone, never mind "easily the best"? Now, I'm no fan of Google, and I don't like the direction they're taking Android in, cutting down the functionality of AOSP, and dragging more into their proprietary apps and libraries. It's just that Android is the least worst choice right, now, as I see it.[2] [1] Controlling, capricious, patronizing, "do it our way or get lost" mentality; and a brand that is a magnet for narcissists everywhere. [2] MS primarily cares about money; it's copying Apple because it sees Apple making money. But Apple doesn't care about money; it thinks it's better than you, and it attracts people who like to think of themselves as better than other people, with more discerning taste in expensive status symbols. Making lots of money is a side-effect of Apple's strategy, because it's harnessing a narcissism latent in modern individualistic consumer society. MS's strategy won't work because it's not appealing to narcissists. Google, meanwhile, is following Microsoft's 1980s strategy to Apple's 1980s strategy.
- Kattywumpus 12y ago
  I'm not the OP, but I am a Windows Phone user, and I love it. Obviously, it may not be your cup of tea, but it has an appeal other phones don't for me. First, I don't think MS is "copying Apple". Using Live Tiles is a very different experience than poking at icons on the iPhone. And MS isn't marketing to "narcissists" -- the best selling Windows Phones are all at the very low end of the market. The fit and polish you can get on a low-end Windows Phone are absolutely phenomenal. I bought one just to play with because Amazon had the Lumia 520 for $29 during the holidays, and got hooked on the platform. Now I'm buying a slightly higher-end model and passing along the 520 to a relative who is still using a flip phone. As a developer, there are a ton of opportunities on the Windows Phone market. It's relatively small, but the key word there is relatively. There are a lot of open niches and a userbase that is hungry and appreciative.

shmerl 12y ago

> Perhaps they’ve been looking in the wrong direction and can return to their “trusted” Embrace and Extend tactics. Does he refer to the despicable practice of "embrace, extend and extinguish"[1]? It's one of the most disgusting stains on Microsoft's reputation (along with their lock-in and standards hijacking practices). I'm surprised author even suggests to do that as something acceptable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

teh_klev 12y ago
Pretty sure he means just the embrace and extend bits.
- shmerl 12y ago
  The whole thing given Microsoft's history has a very sinister connotation. The author even puts "trusted" in quotes, as if hinting that one shouldn't do such a thing really.
  - teh_klev 12y ago
    Journalists and their "scare" quotes. I think people need to get over that period in Microsoft's history. To be honest Oracle, Google, Facebook et al aren't exactly angels when it comes to their own acquire and bury practices.
    - shmerl 12y ago
      > I think people need to get over that period in Microsoft's history. Are you saying they righted their wrongs in this regard? I don't think so. They are slightly better than before may be, but they have a lot of old baggage left. I can't say they stopped their lock-in tactics already and became friendly to open standards. Others have their wrongs as well, but the article is about Microsoft.
      - blumkvist 12y ago

FreakyT 12y ago

I find it somewhat disingenuous when the CEO of Cyanogen makes claims about people wanting use CyanogenMod without the Google Apps. Look at any custom-built CyanogenMod roms out there -- every one of them includes instructions on flashing the Google apps. The only company that has had any success with a forked Android is Amazon, and I suspect that's less about writing replacement apps (as I guess Cyanogen plans to do) and more about Amazon's existing massive market power.

Zigurd 12y ago
Office for Android doesn't suck. That was a big missing piece.
- serve_yay 12y ago
  But why is MS any better or different than Google?
  - smacktoward 12y ago
    If you've already bought into Office on the desktop, it's appealing to be able to have first-party support for it on mobile too, rather than have to deal with converting back and forth with Google Docs or some other non-MS office application.
  - Zigurd 12y ago
    For one thing, Google isn't fully back in China. They are putting together an ecosystem together with local partners, but Microsoft never left China. That's a big enough market to justify OEMs using Office on Android.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
> CEO of Cyanogen makes claims about people wanting use CyanogenMod without the Google Apps. You know, China exists; Google apps are blocked in an entire country that just happens to be the largest single country market for mobile. > The only company that has had any success with a forked Android is Amazon That is definitely not true. Xiaomi? Anyone selling Android in China (which excludes Amazon)?

_nedR 12y ago

Microsoft is adopting the "Services, not devices" (or OSes) strategy envisaged two years ago (http://stratechery.com/2013/services-not-devices/ http://stratechery.com/2013/services-not-devices/). Under Ballmer, Microsoft had a brief identity crisis, trying to be a vertically integrated company like Apple. It is clear that Satya Nadella is taking Microsoft the other way to become a horizontally-integrated company like Google (http://stratechery.com/2013/understanding-google/)by http://stratechery.com/2013/understanding-google/)by open-sourcing .Net platform, to support competing platforms like Linux, releasing Office and Outlook on all mobile platforms (Windows, iOS, Android), focusing on cloud services, and deprioritizing Windows.

frozenport 12y ago
>>like Google But in an ironic way! Both companies are the foundations upon which the digital age sits, everybody runs Windows/Office and everybody uses Google search. MS and Google can do whatever the heck they want and fail often without consequence.
- Padding 12y ago
  For "relatively small" values of "fail" .. like everyone else. It's just that "relatively small" for Google is still pretty huge in absolute numbers. I bet Google too can't fail in crucial/major ways like failing keeping google.com online..
- CmonDev 12y ago
  "...everybody runs Windows/Office and everybody uses Google search..." Several years ago you could add "...and everybody uses an iPhone...". Well, not anymore.
  - louhike 12y ago
    I disagree, even if they sell a lot. The iPhone was far from common because of its high price.
  - slightmarginal 12y ago

Olivier26 12y ago

They do with Cyanogen what they did with Xenix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix

rasz_pl 12y ago
Just like they did with Nokia what they did with Sendo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sendo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sendo

anjc 12y ago

I don't know why people would suggest that Microsoft fork Android. Windows Phone is by far and away the best experience i've had on a phone, and my Lumia 930 is the nicest phone i've used (after coming from a series of iPhones). Don't get me started on the Surface Pro 3, which is probably the most impressive device i've ever had. Microsoft's devices strategy wont be clear until after Windows 10 is launched, I feel, and until a full product line is evident. And you'd be being very silly to discount them at this stage. I feel like people on tech sites/forums experience observation bias because of, maybe, a tendency towards using OSX and Linux, and they seem to forget that Microsoft are utterly dominant in many areas. They've also entered new industries in the last decade and became dominant in short order too.

wdr1 12y ago
> I don't know why people would suggest that Microsoft fork Android. I think the most obvious reason is lack of adoption, both by users & developers. There are lots of apps out there for Android & iOS. Microsoft has such a small market share and, in the eyes of many outside the Microsoft ecosystem, have little change of growing it. Meaning the cost-benefit for developing Windows versions of your apps just isn't there.
smacktoward 12y ago
They suggest it because providing the best user experience appears not to matter much, sales-wise. People keep on buying Android and iOS devices no matter how good Windows Phone becomes. In many ways Windows Phone reminds me of the rebooted Palm Inc. webOS provided a far superior user experience to iOS and Android circa 2008-9, but in the end "meh" hardware and limited carrier support weighed them down more than great UX could lift them up. Microsoft has more money to burn trying to break that cycle than Palm did, of course -- but on the other hand iOS and Android are far more solidly entrenched in the top 2 positions than they were seven years ago.
- anjc 12y ago
  Yeah I get you with the Palm comparison, but I do think that the top end Lumia's are definitely not 'meh' hardware. I recently purchased the 930, so I can see a way Microsoft can increase sales immediately, and you hit the nail on the head. Work with the bloody carriers, but at all levels other than distribution. I went to several mobile phone shops and every single one effectively said "don't buy a flagship windows phone mate, have a look at this cheap shitty mess of an android one". Send some bloody reps around, interact with carriers, incentivise them, and sales will immediately go up.