12 ms·

Korg and Noritake Introduce Futuristic Nutube Vacuum Tubes

103 points by SwellJoe 12y ago

serf 12y ago
I wonder what a tube-on-a-chip computer could do, as far as performance/size.
- morokhovets 12y ago
  I'm sure these Korg tubes are designed for amplification not for computing.
  - hamiltonkibbe 12y ago
    With enough gain, anything can be used for computing!
- grondilu 12y ago
  There were a few articles last year about microscopic vacuum transistors: http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/introducing-the-vacuum-transistor-a-device-made-of-nothing http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/introducing-... Could be the next big thing in computing. Or not. Only time will tell.
Aardwolf 12y ago
Does it give light and a warm glow, though? :)
- droopyEyelids 12y ago
  You're at the bottom of the list, but i can't help but feel this is the most important thing to consider.
  - ris 12y ago
    Absolutely. I have a strong feeling these tubes are never going to "sound" quite the same unless they look (and basically are) just like the genuine originals. The placebo effect is incredibly strong.
- mark-r 12y ago
  I'm surprised the government didn't outlaw tubes along with all the incandescent bulbs. That's just the kind of collateral damage they never seem to consider.
- kazinator 12y ago
  If they put the same coating on the anode as what they put in the vacuum-fluorescent displays, it will have more than just that warm glow. It will flicker green. From the photo, it looks like that may be the case: what are those green squares? The form factor is like that of a VFD. It is quite suggestive of the intent that the part will be mounted such that it is visible through a display window in the equipment's case.
arunc 12y ago
How are harmonics generated by the tube better than those generated by IC?
- mdellabitta 12y ago
  They're even-order, mostly 2nd harmonic.
  - bwanab 12y ago
    In addition, when tubes are pushed, the distortion comes on gradually and those even harmonics give a pleasant tone. This is why almost all rock guitarists use tube amplifiers despite the fact that they cost multiples over equivalent powered solid state amps.
- boomlinde 12y ago
  I don't see where the article says that they are. It says that the tubes are designed for musical instrument applications to generate rich harmonics. Essentially, the distortion characteristics of a tube amplifier are different from those of modern designs, and these characteristics are sometimes desired in for example guitar distortion pedals. Korg has previously released synthesizers and a sampler using vacuum tubes for effect rather than to make them "better" in any objective sense.
- JonnieCache 12y ago
  They're highly non-linear wrt amplitude and frequency, in a pleasing way. This makes them almost instruments in their own right. When playing a guitar through heavy tube distortion, the tubes react to your playing very sensitively, just like the guitar itself does. When people describe random pieces of electronic equipment as "musical" this is usually what they mean. This applies to IC amps as well, but not to the same extent. The recent history of music tech is a story of working hard with esoteric techniques to produce amazing music from primitive gear in the 60s and 70s, then inventing more reliable and repeatable techniques using digital technology in the 80s and 90s. In recent years, people are realising that the man-vs-machine-vs-physics attrition of the mid to late 20th century actually led to a certain sonic complexity that has been missing in recent years. So now we see these hybrid products which merge old and new technology to get a deep sound while retaining reliability and a good workflow. See also: analog voltage controlled oscillators which automatically tune themselves using digital clocks, and compensate for temerature changes. (Incidentally, a lot of audiophile nonsense stems from them making category errors between their puported search for crystal clear reproduction, and studio engineers' quest for signal distortion with emotional quality. This is similar to how MBA types cargo cult programming terminology.)
pjc50 12y ago
That's a two-segment vacuum fluorescent display! If you want to do your own "tube" experiments, you can find these in salvaged electrical gear, especially VCRs.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  Yeah! I am pleased that Noritake may have found a way to keep their company/plants going. I hope it works out for them.
nharada 12y ago
Generally with tube amps there are two places the tubes can go, either the preamp stage or the output stage. Most tube amp enthusiasts will scoff at the idea of having only a preamp tube stage and not power tube stage. These things look tiny, I'd be impressed if these can deliver the wattage required by output tubes. Also interesting will be to hear how they actually sound. All tubes aren't built equal, and even with traditional tubes you can find people arguing about the merits of the 6L6 or EL-34. Of course, if this thing delivers on both fronts that would be incredible. Tubes are in short supply, and my friends who play on tube amps are always complaining out how expensive it is to replace the damn things.
- kubiiii 12y ago
  Maintenance is expensive for sure and new old stock is scarce. But there it's not only tube amps vs solid state amps, there are also modeling amps. They've been around for more than a decade and they are able to simulate the effect of tube amplification and even model each electronic component individually. Well at least they pretend they do. And anyway even if they did guitarist would not buy them because they are a little conservative.
  - Demiurge 12y ago
    I have Axe-Fx II, it is amazing, and from my understanding no one can tell the difference anymore, which is why so many big and small names have switched over, like Steve Vai and Metallica: http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php
    - 72deluxe 12y ago
      Do they use it live though? I thought Vai was entirely Carvin? His sound has more sheen on it recently compared to his earlier stuff. Also, I notice they list Petrucci as an artist. I had a look on stage at his rig last tour (fortunate to do so, was I) and I am sure it was entirely Mesa Rectifier MIDI enabled preamps and Mesa Simul-Class2:Ninety rigs for the amplification, ran to two small 12" (or 10") cabs miked up offstage (so less bleed from live drums, more control over the sound) so I am curious where he actually uses this in his signal chain? I doubt he actually uses it for anything other than effects??? Same for Myung - he was using a DI box and a Demeter power amp ran on a dummy load for overdrive. (I chatted with the bass tech, friendly guy! The entire crew were friendly!)
diydsp 12y ago
Coolest thing is that it uses only 2% the power of comparable tubes. But it's confusing: There is already a model of tube called 6P1 (1). Anyway, who is this for? Engineers/instrument designers? Korg to use internally? (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6P1P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6P1P
- amdolan 12y ago
  Who is this for? Engineers/instrument designers? Korg to use internally? This is an important question. I doubt I'll have the chance to use this unless someone in Asia makes a knock off.
kazinator 12y ago
Note that tiny vacuum tubes already exist. Look at any vacuum fluorescent display (e.g. nearby microwave oven). Also, when tubes were in their heyday, there existed miniature tubes: perhaps not as small as this new one, but a lot smaller than a 12AX7/ECC83. Check out the vacuum tube hearing aid pages in the Hearing Aid Museum: http://www.hearingaidmuseum.com/ http://www.hearingaidmuseum.com/ Can't believe they made kids wear such things. :)
- joezydeco 12y ago
  Noritake is one of the largest global manufacturers of VFD displays. This is no coincidence.
  - kazinator 12y ago
    I'm looking at some Noritake data sheets for VFD's. Looks like you could possibly just use those things as distortion elements. From the picture it looks like this part is a dual triode device. The groups of three pins on either side are the anode/grid/cathode, and the four pins in the middle are separate filament circuits. 12AX7 and similar tubes usually have only three pins for two filaments: the filaments are in series with a center tap for hooking them up in parallel. If this thing is similar to VFD's, it can probably run at around 20V for the anode voltage, and a small voltage for the filaments, around 2V. It would be interesting to develop a tube board for the ADA MP-1 guitar pre-amp with these things. The stock one uses a pair of 12AX7's. A 9V power feed is used for the filaments, and 190V for the anode voltage. That could all be gutted out, and a simpler transformer used which doesn't provide a high voltage tap. The silicon side of the MP-1 runs on +/-15V rails; the same underlying transformer tap could could power the Noritake tubes.
    - joezydeco 12y ago
      I wonder if you could do some kind of crazy circuit bending by turning the VFD into a distortion device, with the characters displayed on the unit as part of the input.
- serf 12y ago
hamiltonkibbe 12y ago
Cool concept, but I doubt the operating range of these tubes is large enough to get any sort of usable gain out. Unless there's a datasheet that says otherwise I'd imagine these are going to end up early in the gain chain as a "coloring" component. With the low operating range and low bias point you don't get the same effect as you do with a tube biased to it's sweet spot. It seems like a marketing gimmick like the starved-plate 12ax7 stage they put in everything nowadays (with ~12V B+ as opposed to the 250-400V B+ you find in nearly all classic amp designs), along with a few LEDs and a window in front so you can see where your extra $100 is going. If you plot (really any) load line on the plate curves for a 12AX7 with a < 50V B+ you're in a really poor, highly non-linear region. Looking at plate curves for some old VFD tubes the operating range for those is way down in the same region in the lower left corner if you plot them over the 12AX7 plate curves. Given the size and the fact that it uses 2% of the power of conventional tubes, I doubt that these tubes could be used as an output stage. I would have to guess that they're running them cold as well. Preamp tube power draw is often dominated by the heaters Of course this is all speculation until they publish a datasheet...
- illicium 12y ago
  Isn't non-linearity a desirable property for audio tubes?
  - hamiltonkibbe 12y ago
    Yes but not all non-linearity. With a high plate voltage (and a reasonable bias point) you get gentle compression as the tube starts to break up. That's the good (T00B) sound, with the even harmonics and everything. When you run a low plate voltage you start to run into some of the undesirable things that happen when you get close to the point where the tube stops conducting entirely. you start to hard-clip the signal on one half-cycle and all those odd square-wave harmonics start to jump out, and that can sound even worse than some mediocre diode hard-clip/distortion stage designs. EDIT: If you look at the plate curves for e.g. a 12AX7 http://www.paleoelectronics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/12ax7-withpower.png http://www.paleoelectronics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009... The way you pick your operating point is you draw a diagonal line from the plate voltage at the bottom to the saturation current on the left, and the output current moves along that line as the input signal changes (the input voltage is the voltage at the top of each curved black line). A good operating point is one where the intersections of the curves with the load line (the diagonal line you drew) are evenly spaced along the load line. If they are perfectly spaced, the amplification is exactly linear. As an example, if you plot a load line for 350V plate voltage and 2mA max plate current the intersections with the curves will be closer together on the right and move farther apart as you move left along the load line. That is the asymmetrical compression that gives a nice tube amp distortion tone. If you do the same thing with a 12V plate voltage (and any plate current) you start running into that 0V grid curve and it's hard to reason about what's happening in between the two data points (curves) you have, because at some point the curves change and start looking like the 0V one, but it's hard to tell where. Once you start driving the grid positive the tube will stop conducting entirely and hard-clip your signal, which is what I was referring to before. The TL;DR; would be something like look at how the 0V curve goes the opposite way as all the others, that's not where you want to be.
sbierwagen 12y ago
You can use regular unmodified VFDs as tube amps, though the gain isn't great: http://hpfriedrichs.com/radioroom/vfd/rr-vfd.htm http://hpfriedrichs.com/radioroom/vfd/rr-vfd.htm
- kazinator 12y ago
  Based on that article, I'm not convinced that it's the best that the part could do, based on the circuit schematic. We would not be using the windings of a transformer as a load in a typical gain stage in a musical instrument preamp. A typical inverting stage would have a large-ish resistor as its load, in parallel with the fairly high impedance of the next stage (another tube circuit that is similar).
dzhiurgis 12y ago
Is it worth having tube amp for use with 24/192 records or is it's use is exclusive to vinyl?

103 points by SwellJoe 12y ago

serf 12y ago

I wonder what a tube-on-a-chip computer could do, as far as performance/size.

morokhovets 12y ago
I'm sure these Korg tubes are designed for amplification not for computing.
- hamiltonkibbe 12y ago
  With enough gain, anything can be used for computing!
grondilu 12y ago
There were a few articles last year about microscopic vacuum transistors: http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/introducing-the-vacuum-transistor-a-device-made-of-nothing http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/introducing-... Could be the next big thing in computing. Or not. Only time will tell.

Aardwolf 12y ago

Does it give light and a warm glow, though? :)

droopyEyelids 12y ago
You're at the bottom of the list, but i can't help but feel this is the most important thing to consider.
- ris 12y ago
  Absolutely. I have a strong feeling these tubes are never going to "sound" quite the same unless they look (and basically are) just like the genuine originals. The placebo effect is incredibly strong.
mark-r 12y ago
I'm surprised the government didn't outlaw tubes along with all the incandescent bulbs. That's just the kind of collateral damage they never seem to consider.
kazinator 12y ago
If they put the same coating on the anode as what they put in the vacuum-fluorescent displays, it will have more than just that warm glow. It will flicker green. From the photo, it looks like that may be the case: what are those green squares? The form factor is like that of a VFD. It is quite suggestive of the intent that the part will be mounted such that it is visible through a display window in the equipment's case.

arunc 12y ago

How are harmonics generated by the tube better than those generated by IC?

mdellabitta 12y ago
They're even-order, mostly 2nd harmonic.
- bwanab 12y ago
  In addition, when tubes are pushed, the distortion comes on gradually and those even harmonics give a pleasant tone. This is why almost all rock guitarists use tube amplifiers despite the fact that they cost multiples over equivalent powered solid state amps.
boomlinde 12y ago
I don't see where the article says that they are. It says that the tubes are designed for musical instrument applications to generate rich harmonics. Essentially, the distortion characteristics of a tube amplifier are different from those of modern designs, and these characteristics are sometimes desired in for example guitar distortion pedals. Korg has previously released synthesizers and a sampler using vacuum tubes for effect rather than to make them "better" in any objective sense.
JonnieCache 12y ago
They're highly non-linear wrt amplitude and frequency, in a pleasing way. This makes them almost instruments in their own right. When playing a guitar through heavy tube distortion, the tubes react to your playing very sensitively, just like the guitar itself does. When people describe random pieces of electronic equipment as "musical" this is usually what they mean. This applies to IC amps as well, but not to the same extent. The recent history of music tech is a story of working hard with esoteric techniques to produce amazing music from primitive gear in the 60s and 70s, then inventing more reliable and repeatable techniques using digital technology in the 80s and 90s. In recent years, people are realising that the man-vs-machine-vs-physics attrition of the mid to late 20th century actually led to a certain sonic complexity that has been missing in recent years. So now we see these hybrid products which merge old and new technology to get a deep sound while retaining reliability and a good workflow. See also: analog voltage controlled oscillators which automatically tune themselves using digital clocks, and compensate for temerature changes. (Incidentally, a lot of audiophile nonsense stems from them making category errors between their puported search for crystal clear reproduction, and studio engineers' quest for signal distortion with emotional quality. This is similar to how MBA types cargo cult programming terminology.)

pjc50 12y ago

That's a two-segment vacuum fluorescent display! If you want to do your own "tube" experiments, you can find these in salvaged electrical gear, especially VCRs.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
Yeah! I am pleased that Noritake may have found a way to keep their company/plants going. I hope it works out for them.

nharada 12y ago

Generally with tube amps there are two places the tubes can go, either the preamp stage or the output stage. Most tube amp enthusiasts will scoff at the idea of having only a preamp tube stage and not power tube stage. These things look tiny, I'd be impressed if these can deliver the wattage required by output tubes. Also interesting will be to hear how they actually sound. All tubes aren't built equal, and even with traditional tubes you can find people arguing about the merits of the 6L6 or EL-34. Of course, if this thing delivers on both fronts that would be incredible. Tubes are in short supply, and my friends who play on tube amps are always complaining out how expensive it is to replace the damn things.

kubiiii 12y ago
Maintenance is expensive for sure and new old stock is scarce. But there it's not only tube amps vs solid state amps, there are also modeling amps. They've been around for more than a decade and they are able to simulate the effect of tube amplification and even model each electronic component individually. Well at least they pretend they do. And anyway even if they did guitarist would not buy them because they are a little conservative.
- Demiurge 12y ago
  I have Axe-Fx II, it is amazing, and from my understanding no one can tell the difference anymore, which is why so many big and small names have switched over, like Steve Vai and Metallica: http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php
  - 72deluxe 12y ago
    Do they use it live though? I thought Vai was entirely Carvin? His sound has more sheen on it recently compared to his earlier stuff. Also, I notice they list Petrucci as an artist. I had a look on stage at his rig last tour (fortunate to do so, was I) and I am sure it was entirely Mesa Rectifier MIDI enabled preamps and Mesa Simul-Class2:Ninety rigs for the amplification, ran to two small 12" (or 10") cabs miked up offstage (so less bleed from live drums, more control over the sound) so I am curious where he actually uses this in his signal chain? I doubt he actually uses it for anything other than effects??? Same for Myung - he was using a DI box and a Demeter power amp ran on a dummy load for overdrive. (I chatted with the bass tech, friendly guy! The entire crew were friendly!)

diydsp 12y ago

Coolest thing is that it uses only 2% the power of comparable tubes. But it's confusing: There is already a model of tube called 6P1 (1). Anyway, who is this for? Engineers/instrument designers? Korg to use internally? (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6P1P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6P1P

amdolan 12y ago
Who is this for? Engineers/instrument designers? Korg to use internally? This is an important question. I doubt I'll have the chance to use this unless someone in Asia makes a knock off.

kazinator 12y ago

Note that tiny vacuum tubes already exist. Look at any vacuum fluorescent display (e.g. nearby microwave oven). Also, when tubes were in their heyday, there existed miniature tubes: perhaps not as small as this new one, but a lot smaller than a 12AX7/ECC83. Check out the vacuum tube hearing aid pages in the Hearing Aid Museum: http://www.hearingaidmuseum.com/ http://www.hearingaidmuseum.com/ Can't believe they made kids wear such things. :)

joezydeco 12y ago
Noritake is one of the largest global manufacturers of VFD displays. This is no coincidence.
- kazinator 12y ago
  I'm looking at some Noritake data sheets for VFD's. Looks like you could possibly just use those things as distortion elements. From the picture it looks like this part is a dual triode device. The groups of three pins on either side are the anode/grid/cathode, and the four pins in the middle are separate filament circuits. 12AX7 and similar tubes usually have only three pins for two filaments: the filaments are in series with a center tap for hooking them up in parallel. If this thing is similar to VFD's, it can probably run at around 20V for the anode voltage, and a small voltage for the filaments, around 2V. It would be interesting to develop a tube board for the ADA MP-1 guitar pre-amp with these things. The stock one uses a pair of 12AX7's. A 9V power feed is used for the filaments, and 190V for the anode voltage. That could all be gutted out, and a simpler transformer used which doesn't provide a high voltage tap. The silicon side of the MP-1 runs on +/-15V rails; the same underlying transformer tap could could power the Noritake tubes.
  - joezydeco 12y ago
    I wonder if you could do some kind of crazy circuit bending by turning the VFD into a distortion device, with the characters displayed on the unit as part of the input.
serf 12y ago

hamiltonkibbe 12y ago

Cool concept, but I doubt the operating range of these tubes is large enough to get any sort of usable gain out. Unless there's a datasheet that says otherwise I'd imagine these are going to end up early in the gain chain as a "coloring" component. With the low operating range and low bias point you don't get the same effect as you do with a tube biased to it's sweet spot. It seems like a marketing gimmick like the starved-plate 12ax7 stage they put in everything nowadays (with ~12V B+ as opposed to the 250-400V B+ you find in nearly all classic amp designs), along with a few LEDs and a window in front so you can see where your extra $100 is going. If you plot (really any) load line on the plate curves for a 12AX7 with a < 50V B+ you're in a really poor, highly non-linear region. Looking at plate curves for some old VFD tubes the operating range for those is way down in the same region in the lower left corner if you plot them over the 12AX7 plate curves. Given the size and the fact that it uses 2% of the power of conventional tubes, I doubt that these tubes could be used as an output stage. I would have to guess that they're running them cold as well. Preamp tube power draw is often dominated by the heaters Of course this is all speculation until they publish a datasheet...

illicium 12y ago
Isn't non-linearity a desirable property for audio tubes?
- hamiltonkibbe 12y ago
  Yes but not all non-linearity. With a high plate voltage (and a reasonable bias point) you get gentle compression as the tube starts to break up. That's the good (T00B) sound, with the even harmonics and everything. When you run a low plate voltage you start to run into some of the undesirable things that happen when you get close to the point where the tube stops conducting entirely. you start to hard-clip the signal on one half-cycle and all those odd square-wave harmonics start to jump out, and that can sound even worse than some mediocre diode hard-clip/distortion stage designs. EDIT: If you look at the plate curves for e.g. a 12AX7 http://www.paleoelectronics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/12ax7-withpower.png http://www.paleoelectronics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009... The way you pick your operating point is you draw a diagonal line from the plate voltage at the bottom to the saturation current on the left, and the output current moves along that line as the input signal changes (the input voltage is the voltage at the top of each curved black line). A good operating point is one where the intersections of the curves with the load line (the diagonal line you drew) are evenly spaced along the load line. If they are perfectly spaced, the amplification is exactly linear. As an example, if you plot a load line for 350V plate voltage and 2mA max plate current the intersections with the curves will be closer together on the right and move farther apart as you move left along the load line. That is the asymmetrical compression that gives a nice tube amp distortion tone. If you do the same thing with a 12V plate voltage (and any plate current) you start running into that 0V grid curve and it's hard to reason about what's happening in between the two data points (curves) you have, because at some point the curves change and start looking like the 0V one, but it's hard to tell where. Once you start driving the grid positive the tube will stop conducting entirely and hard-clip your signal, which is what I was referring to before. The TL;DR; would be something like look at how the 0V curve goes the opposite way as all the others, that's not where you want to be.

sbierwagen 12y ago

You can use regular unmodified VFDs as tube amps, though the gain isn't great: http://hpfriedrichs.com/radioroom/vfd/rr-vfd.htm http://hpfriedrichs.com/radioroom/vfd/rr-vfd.htm

kazinator 12y ago
Based on that article, I'm not convinced that it's the best that the part could do, based on the circuit schematic. We would not be using the windings of a transformer as a load in a typical gain stage in a musical instrument preamp. A typical inverting stage would have a large-ish resistor as its load, in parallel with the fairly high impedance of the next stage (another tube circuit that is similar).

dzhiurgis 12y ago

Is it worth having tube amp for use with 24/192 records or is it's use is exclusive to vinyl?