8 ms·

The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

118 points by executive 12y ago

patio11 12y ago
One reason for this is the primacy of the workplace/school, to the total exclusion of any third place. If you don't have a job or are harassed out of your school, what does one do when not working? Japan does not have great ready-made answers to this question, for many people. (It seems like a silly question, but after six years here, I honestly struggled with it after leaving the day job. Where should one be at 3 PM on a Thursday? Is it allowed for me to just go to the gym? Shouldn't I just stay home a few more hours so that the lady behind the counter will assume I am coming in after getting home from work early at 8 or so?) There exist people with similar levels of social isolation who nonetheless go to work every day. They are occasionally written about in reports of him hikikomori, which strikes at least some people as odd, since "I go to a place where nobody cares about me and spend my entire day there" is not exactly out of the mainstream of Japanese experience.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > to the total exclusion of any third place There's always Starbucks. I'm only half-joking, there's always people there at all times of the day in Japan.
  - InclinedPlane 12y ago
    Well, starbucks was intentionally founded to be a "third place".
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      That's precisely why I said I was "half joking" :)
- benguild 12y ago
  This is incredibly on point.
- bane 12y ago
  I'm married into a South Korean family, and from my observation Korean society has less intense version of Japan's social collective mood (IIR it's written as '情' in both countries) It's really difficult to read about this kind of thing and maintain an appropriate feeling of cultural relativism without wanting go "oh Japan" or in my case "oh Korea". There's been many times with my family and friends a seemingly intractable situation will come up that a Westerner would simply resolve with a bit of a Western Rock'n'Roll "well fuck 'em" attitude and get on with life. As a Westerner, I find it incredibly frustrating at times. But obviously it's more complicated then that and when I try to see things through my family and friend's cultural lens it all makes a kind of sense. On the flip side, I think lots of Western behavior is explained by an insatiable desire for group membership -- despite social expectations of individuality (especially for Americans). People do all kinds of weird behaviors, bizarre clique joinerisms like wearing crazy fashions, or obsess over the moment they turn old enough to join the Marines or take on group-specific behavior patterns, and just like with 情 this mood and desire seems indescribable to them (I don't know of any satisfactory word in English for it). But you can go to any public place and look at groups of people who all dress, act and try to be as "the same" as possible as their clique-mates. And then you end up with the strangest of all joiner group identities, the ones made up of "individuals" who strive obsessively to be "individuals" just exactly like all the rest of their clique-mates. Hipsterism seems to be a particularly well known variant of this, but there are others. I suspect a similar psychological mechanism is at play, but just on opposite ends of the spectrum.
  - jpatokal 12y ago
    YMMV, but having seen both the Japanese and Korean sides of the coin, I'd generalize Korea as being more "intense" on all counts: studying even harder, working even longer, endurance being prized even more as a virtue. Although I think both societies are slowly evolving out of this, Japan is just a bit further down the path. But yes, the let's-all-be-individuals-together cliques are still going strong. Japanese Halloween illustrates this nicely: virtually everybody who dresses up does so in matching groups. http://tokyofashion.com/halloween-in-japan-shibuya-costumes/ http://tokyofashion.com/halloween-in-japan-shibuya-costumes/
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  > to the total exclusion of any third place there were Arcades, but they pretty much all closed in the nineties
  - ivanca 12y ago
    Lets bring them back.
  - ronnier 12y ago
    Not here in Japan. I just left as a matter of fact. Lots of people there.
    - semperfaux 12y ago
      Yep. I'm in Tokyo and they're very common.
- mathattack 12y ago
  It's tough too because social pressures and norms are much stricter in Japan than elsewhere. This contributes to both the stings of social alienation, and the unwillingness of parents to kick their kids out of the nest.
- ronnier 12y ago
  I go to Taito Station and play Ultra Street Fighter 4 and/or coffee shops when I don't have much else going on.
  - Legogris 12y ago
    Strolling in the konbini or donki and figuring out what I could possibly find that could satiate this vague craving for something that I don't know what it is also works. You never know what you end up, buying, if anything. More often than not something dense in calories and/or containing caffeine or alcohol. Oh consumerism.
- sebastianavina 12y ago
  I'm from Mexico, and I semi correlate with this. When I graduated from college, I worked my entire time there and was kind of over stressed/exhausted, so I took a sabatic year. I spent I guess 6 months browsing the web, reading about compilers, and watching video lectures, I just spent time with my mom. My dad started questioning me, but both were very supportive. After about 6 months, I started to gain weight, so I decided to join a Gym. A pal offered me classes on a local university and things started to move on. I was very depressed, sad, I didn't want to do anything, literally, I just wanted to sleep. At the end, I took about 16 months in rehabilitation, I grew frustrated of literally doing nothing, and started to work again, first at the family company as a hobby, then as general manager, it really helped me that I've been an entrepeneour since my 16's, and well. things just keeps going. I really where on a different position than all of this persons, but I acknowledge it's very hard to stand on your feet after a break down. Is like you loss the will to live and you start giving a fuck about everything, friends, family, money, everything. Returning to the sabatic year. the second part of that sabatic year, was one of the happiest moments on my life, I got a Girlfriend (Denisse), I traveled not a lot, but enough, wasted all the money I've saved from the company I had on college (I developed webpages), but I got some great friends, they were awesome people and I laughed and enjoyed life like never before. Straightforward to the present time. last year suddenly I felt like the loneliest person on earth, I've been working so hard the last 6 years, that again I didn't had friends at all, I wake up, work, gym, bed. In that order, now I'm in my 30's, still single, I buyed a flat, buyed fourniture, but at the end, I still live with my parents, I just can't handle being alone there. and throught I can say I'm quite succesful, being succesful is not actually a requisite to make friends, a requisite to being friends is being happy, and was again stressed but now I was kind of angry with life too. I changed gym (I used to go to a sports club rather exclusive, where I couldn't meet new people), joined graduate school, actually I'm studying two master degrees right now, one in applied statistics, and another one in business planification. I also joined new groups in order to meet new people. Things are changing now. Now I've friends againg to hang out on weekends. But damn, I have to make assessments every now and then about my life, and take corrective actions because if I just keep going, it seems that the path always takes me to a depressive life, maybe is my personality, maybe I isolate when I take a challenge (as a programmer, I like to program in isolation, so when I become general manager of the family company, I isolated myself until I took the company to profit again). Nevertheless, the only thing I take for sure is: Damn, life is difficult.
spearo77 12y ago
relavent music? https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/child-psychology/id695949726?i=695951271 https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/child-psychology/id6959497...
code_duck 12y ago
This is of interest to me as a member of my family, here on the U.S. (totally non Japanese) fits the syndrome quite closely. As far as I can tell, a combination of social anxiety, depression, pressure, laziness and lack of pressure (enabling behavior from his parents) has led him to not work in over 20 years and live with his parents, socializing online but showing no interest/ability in socializing with people in person... Or doing any productive work. As time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to join society - my relative now is almost 40 but has very little experience in the 'real' world. He has no experience doing things like buying a car, negotiating a mortgage or lease, applying for a job, working at a job, maintaining a household in general, sustaining or building a mature romantic relationship, or any of the other skills he should have learned in his twenties. It's harder to be a 40 year old 18 year old than an 18 year old one.
- prawn 12y ago
  I think we'll see more cases like this, but also we'll see technology providing people with new ways of functioning. I think a lot of it is about inertia and always choosing the easier path. If your parents enable you to live without having to work, for a lot of people the ease overrides the benefits of work (independence, sense of worth, etc). Down the track, more and more socialising will be digital, more shopping will be online and so on. Some people will exist publicly only as avatars bearing little resemblance to their physical selves.
narrator 12y ago
Does anyone who was born and raised in Japan have anything to say about all this? I've read several threads over the last couple of days on this topic and it seems that the only people who comment on these kinds of stories are at best foreigners living in Japan. Is this a taboo topic for native born Japanese?
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  > Is this a taboo topic for native born Japanese? No, it's just that there aren't that many native born Japanese who are fluent in English or visit Western websites.
jhou2 12y ago
I might be way off, but I tend to view this from an economic perspective in that these young (and not so young) shut-ins, in a pragmatic sense, don't need to work to survive. Their parents are able to provide for them all the basic needs for life - mostly shelter and food. It is a relatively small marginal expense to the parents who usually already have fair incomes. Until the parents pass away, which may take some time with Japan's famously long lifespans, most of these shut-ins will probably be alright. Another aspect I find interesting is that the article is written mostly from an extrovert's perspective on culture. For an introvert, it seems like paradise to be a shut-in. I get fed, cared for, and I can focus on my internal life and interests, with no need to deal with others and all the problems they bring. As an introvert focused on myself and my own well-being, there seems nothing wrong with being a shut-in. Of course there are macro-economic arguments against it, but from a micro-economic point of view where I only care about my own needs, I would be satisfied with a shut-in life.
- doyoulikeworms 12y ago
  One doctor in the article states that the diagnosis criteria ought to include whether or not the shut-in is unhappy with the situation. A happy hermit would not be a hikikomori in his eyes. That said, I'm an introvert myself as well. Spending time with others in a social setting drains me mentally, and I prefer being alone or with my SO. But if I never left the house for months or years, it would be quite depressing for me. I think the issue goes beyond people who simply don't like spending time with others. People are suffering.
- Red_Tarsius 12y ago
  I'm extremely introvert and – as a student, not a neet! – I've lived the past months in a manner similar to that described by the article. I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.
  - marincounty 12y ago
    I apologize for the--know it all--you are responding to. The one thing that really irritates me about Americans(including myself at one time) is we think we know, or have the the answers to Everything! I can kind of stomach it when it comes to our culture, but it become nauseous when we comment on other, usually better cultures.
wallflower 12y ago
One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day). Even just being in an environment (yes, open workspace) with some kind of energy/noise is good for someone who is so inwardly focused they tend to not need headphones in such an environment. As someone who has done mini shut-ins of almost double-digit days at a time (with corresponding spike in News.YC activity), I believe that once you get off a regular schedule it can be hard to recover. Having some facsimile or proxy of human communication, be it Facebook or people 'liking' your News.YC submissions (or even worse comments), is like empty fast food calories for social attention - but still nourishing at some basic level. Like they say for people who may be divorced, keeping busy with some project or activity is a smoke screen for feeling lonely. Ultimately, the smoke may clear and you'll feel intense spurts of sadness. Yet - your friends and acquaintances won't know because they think you're always doing interesting things with different circles of people. People tend to see what they want to see.
- doyoulikeworms 12y ago
  I left my job to make video games, mostly solo. I'm financially able to pursue this lifestyle for the foreseeable future. > One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day). You hit the nail on the head for me. What I miss most from a normal job isn't money or status, but simply being around other people. I never once thought that I would have felt this way. I'll be joining a coworking space when money permits, to be sure.
  - chipsy 12y ago
    Your HN profile says you are in the Bay Area. If Oakland is within reach, we run a free coworking session every Tuesday afternoon. It is primarily social in nature(with occasional "everybody is busy" days). [0] More generally, I try to make my daily routine get me out of the house before I turn on the computer. That is, either I go out of the house and go to the gym, then work when I come back, or I go out of the house and sit down at a coffeeshop and work for two-to-four hours, then go to the gym, then come back. Changing locale tends to matter a lot to me, even if I'm not actually social while I'm out. [0] http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Game-Jamming-Game-Design/events/219976985/ http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Game-Jamming-Game-Design/e...
nichtich 12y ago
I think this is relevant. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547 As opposed to some other commentator, I don't think the shut-ins are actually content with being isolated. It's more like a trap that you fell into and don't know how to climb out of. If society don't try to help them, (some of) them may fell down even further, to the point of suicide.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jkot 12y ago
So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale. Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. But with internet everyone can see that ordinary western people live happy lives, without working themselves to death. I bet most hikimori just want to live western way. Go to nice college, have a few parties, eventually graduate and work 9-5 job. This is simply not an option in Japan, with its elite schools and work culture. 'Saving those people' without providing better alternative is a nonsense. They are already on path they are most happy with. Shaming and dressing it as mental illness is not going to work.
- oxide 12y ago
  great perspective.
- semperfaux 12y ago
  Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of women tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it. But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.
  - Morgawr 12y ago
Animats 12y ago
There's a public service announcement for hikikomori: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Y7R5zP0wc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Y7R5zP0wc This, strangely, is in English. Support website for hikikomori: http://www.newstart-jimu.org http://www.newstart-jimu.org
Red_Tarsius 12y ago
I think the Hikikomori phenomenon has been widespreading due to its popularization. imho being a shut-in has become a codified cry for help, a way to express a certain discomfort backed up by social proof. It has nothing to do with being lazy or spoiled, as implied in Japanese media like the Welcome to the NHK anime; I've yet to read the novel. Hikikomori exists outside of Japan too. I recommend you to watch the following video about hermitism and shut-ins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bv5gaN4LI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bv5gaN4LI
nemesisrobot 12y ago
The first time I'd heard of hikikomori was in Ready Player One by Ernest Cline
kbart 12y ago
"People who consider themselves hikikomori exhibit a wide range of symptoms, including depressive, autistic and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. A minority appear addicted to the Internet" That's strange, I always thought Internet was the main cause of this problem. I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight.
- lmm 12y ago
  > I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight. Nah, many of those are in internet cafés, and social pressure seems to be at least part of what keeps them playing (you don't see it happening with non-online games, after all). Different condition.
- semperfaux 12y ago
  That's definitely not hikikomori. The real thing basically never leaves its room, with family providing food. Even a less extreme example almost certainly would never leave the home for long enough to die anywhere else. They do often spend a lot of time on the internet, but it's not a cause, it's a related fixation (when you're trapped -- by what's probably some combination of your own preference and perceived outside forces -- in a room, the internet provides a wealth of things to do). It's a social malaise that might as well be an extension of the NEET phenomenon.
  - antihero 12y ago
    What happens when a hikkomori gets kicked out of the house? My immediate thought running through my mind was that if these were my kids, they'd get the boot. Obviously things aren't that simple, but has anyone actually tried that? What happens? Do they just die?
  - anon4 12y ago
    >the real thing basically never leaves its room >thing >its They are still people, even if you disagree or outright hate how they live their life. If this was an attempt at making the sentence gender-neutral, please use "one(s)" and "they" in the future like so: The real ones basically never leave their room, with...
jalcazar 12y ago
The following paragraph is key to understand the phenomenon. I'm a western who have been living in Japan for years and is still difficult to understand how parents allow and support their children to be hikikomori. “In western society, it’s difficult to understand this situation,” Dr. Kato says. “Western society parents strongly push [their children] to go out. But in Japan, parents are strongly afraid to push.”
- Aeolun 12y ago
  What is your alternative then? Push them and if they don't respond throw them out onto the street? Once your children understand that you won't actually throw them out, any conversation pushing them is just negatively reinforcing their impression that interaction is a problem, not a solution.
Kiro 12y ago
I only skimmed the article but are there hikikomoris who are happy with their life? I'm an introvert who is happily anti-social and wouldn't mind staying home all the time if I could afford it.
- id 12y ago
  I wonder if you would still say this after years of staying home without ever leaving it.
- Morgawr 12y ago
  Happiness is very hard to define. Some people (most of them, actually) might be content with what they do, it doesn't mean that they are intrinsically happy about it. I've spent my fair share of time in isolation and I have to say that I've always felt happy about my lifestyle until I realized how much I missed my friends and family or even just going outside. I only realized this after the fact, not during. The problem is that your perspective of the world around you is warped and can easily lead you into thinking you are happy with what you have, simply because you are too afraid to go out and experience what you're missing so you just start believing this is what you want. For some people, it might be true, though. Regardless of this fact, this is a very unhealthy and unsustainable lifestyle which should be corrected and these people should be helped. I don't see it much different from somebody being addicted to drugs. Sure, they might be happy taking drugs, but that's not going to work well forever. (Obviously this is an exaggerated example)
- tendies 12y ago
  It only works if you have a garuntee that you can be a shut in till the day you die. Other things to worry about is getting health/dental care. I've been a shut in for 5 years now, I was pretty content and happy for the first few years. It was only until my parents started having financial troubles and begun the process of divorce when it turned into hell. Everyday I'm terrified by the thought that one day I'll have to go back to society. I knew some people that went through this and they have mostly ended up homeless because they simply were too under qualified to get a job. Health care is a problem too, I do my best to stay in shape and eat healthy foods to prevent any major illnesses because if I were to get sick it would mean severe debts as I have 0 savings.
teh_klev 12y ago
Possibly useful insights from similar discussion a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5993441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5993441
bpodgursky 12y ago
I wonder if a mandatory national service or conscription would work to pull some people out of their bubble. I'm not in love with the idea in general, but if you can stop someone from wasting their whole life...
meow_mix 12y ago
Reading over the comments it seems to me that there's some misunderstanding of introversion. There's a large difference between being introverted and being socially isolated. A healthy introvert rarely goes over a day without speaking to someone. Keep in mind introversion does not mean that someone is against seeing people at all.
peter303 12y ago
Similar incidence of agrophobia in USA. This source says is 0.8% in USA. 0.5M/127M in Japan http://www.uptodate.com/contents/agoraphobia-in-adults-epidemiology-pathogenesis-clinical-manifestations-course-and-diagnosis http://www.uptodate.com/contents/agoraphobia-in-adults-epide... Talking about .5% to 1% range.

118 points by executive 12y ago

One reason for this is the primacy of the workplace/school, to the total exclusion of any third place. If you don't have a job or are harassed out of your school, what does one do when not working? Japan does not have great ready-made answers to this question, for many people. (It seems like a silly question, but after six years here, I honestly struggled with it after leaving the day job. Where should one be at 3 PM on a Thursday? Is it allowed for me to just go to the gym? Shouldn't I just stay home a few more hours so that the lady behind the counter will assume I am coming in after getting home from work early at 8 or so?) There exist people with similar levels of social isolation who nonetheless go to work every day. They are occasionally written about in reports of him hikikomori, which strikes at least some people as odd, since "I go to a place where nobody cares about me and spend my entire day there" is not exactly out of the mainstream of Japanese experience.

ekianjo 12y ago
> to the total exclusion of any third place There's always Starbucks. I'm only half-joking, there's always people there at all times of the day in Japan.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  Well, starbucks was intentionally founded to be a "third place".
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    That's precisely why I said I was "half joking" :)
benguild 12y ago
This is incredibly on point.
bane 12y ago
I'm married into a South Korean family, and from my observation Korean society has less intense version of Japan's social collective mood (IIR it's written as '情' in both countries) It's really difficult to read about this kind of thing and maintain an appropriate feeling of cultural relativism without wanting go "oh Japan" or in my case "oh Korea". There's been many times with my family and friends a seemingly intractable situation will come up that a Westerner would simply resolve with a bit of a Western Rock'n'Roll "well fuck 'em" attitude and get on with life. As a Westerner, I find it incredibly frustrating at times. But obviously it's more complicated then that and when I try to see things through my family and friend's cultural lens it all makes a kind of sense. On the flip side, I think lots of Western behavior is explained by an insatiable desire for group membership -- despite social expectations of individuality (especially for Americans). People do all kinds of weird behaviors, bizarre clique joinerisms like wearing crazy fashions, or obsess over the moment they turn old enough to join the Marines or take on group-specific behavior patterns, and just like with 情 this mood and desire seems indescribable to them (I don't know of any satisfactory word in English for it). But you can go to any public place and look at groups of people who all dress, act and try to be as "the same" as possible as their clique-mates. And then you end up with the strangest of all joiner group identities, the ones made up of "individuals" who strive obsessively to be "individuals" just exactly like all the rest of their clique-mates. Hipsterism seems to be a particularly well known variant of this, but there are others. I suspect a similar psychological mechanism is at play, but just on opposite ends of the spectrum.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  YMMV, but having seen both the Japanese and Korean sides of the coin, I'd generalize Korea as being more "intense" on all counts: studying even harder, working even longer, endurance being prized even more as a virtue. Although I think both societies are slowly evolving out of this, Japan is just a bit further down the path. But yes, the let's-all-be-individuals-together cliques are still going strong. Japanese Halloween illustrates this nicely: virtually everybody who dresses up does so in matching groups. http://tokyofashion.com/halloween-in-japan-shibuya-costumes/ http://tokyofashion.com/halloween-in-japan-shibuya-costumes/
rasz_pl 12y ago
> to the total exclusion of any third place there were Arcades, but they pretty much all closed in the nineties
- ivanca 12y ago
  Lets bring them back.
- ronnier 12y ago
  Not here in Japan. I just left as a matter of fact. Lots of people there.
  - semperfaux 12y ago
    Yep. I'm in Tokyo and they're very common.
mathattack 12y ago
It's tough too because social pressures and norms are much stricter in Japan than elsewhere. This contributes to both the stings of social alienation, and the unwillingness of parents to kick their kids out of the nest.
ronnier 12y ago
I go to Taito Station and play Ultra Street Fighter 4 and/or coffee shops when I don't have much else going on.
- Legogris 12y ago
  Strolling in the konbini or donki and figuring out what I could possibly find that could satiate this vague craving for something that I don't know what it is also works. You never know what you end up, buying, if anything. More often than not something dense in calories and/or containing caffeine or alcohol. Oh consumerism.
sebastianavina 12y ago
I'm from Mexico, and I semi correlate with this. When I graduated from college, I worked my entire time there and was kind of over stressed/exhausted, so I took a sabatic year. I spent I guess 6 months browsing the web, reading about compilers, and watching video lectures, I just spent time with my mom. My dad started questioning me, but both were very supportive. After about 6 months, I started to gain weight, so I decided to join a Gym. A pal offered me classes on a local university and things started to move on. I was very depressed, sad, I didn't want to do anything, literally, I just wanted to sleep. At the end, I took about 16 months in rehabilitation, I grew frustrated of literally doing nothing, and started to work again, first at the family company as a hobby, then as general manager, it really helped me that I've been an entrepeneour since my 16's, and well. things just keeps going. I really where on a different position than all of this persons, but I acknowledge it's very hard to stand on your feet after a break down. Is like you loss the will to live and you start giving a fuck about everything, friends, family, money, everything. Returning to the sabatic year. the second part of that sabatic year, was one of the happiest moments on my life, I got a Girlfriend (Denisse), I traveled not a lot, but enough, wasted all the money I've saved from the company I had on college (I developed webpages), but I got some great friends, they were awesome people and I laughed and enjoyed life like never before. Straightforward to the present time. last year suddenly I felt like the loneliest person on earth, I've been working so hard the last 6 years, that again I didn't had friends at all, I wake up, work, gym, bed. In that order, now I'm in my 30's, still single, I buyed a flat, buyed fourniture, but at the end, I still live with my parents, I just can't handle being alone there. and throught I can say I'm quite succesful, being succesful is not actually a requisite to make friends, a requisite to being friends is being happy, and was again stressed but now I was kind of angry with life too. I changed gym (I used to go to a sports club rather exclusive, where I couldn't meet new people), joined graduate school, actually I'm studying two master degrees right now, one in applied statistics, and another one in business planification. I also joined new groups in order to meet new people. Things are changing now. Now I've friends againg to hang out on weekends. But damn, I have to make assessments every now and then about my life, and take corrective actions because if I just keep going, it seems that the path always takes me to a depressive life, maybe is my personality, maybe I isolate when I take a challenge (as a programmer, I like to program in isolation, so when I become general manager of the family company, I isolated myself until I took the company to profit again). Nevertheless, the only thing I take for sure is: Damn, life is difficult.

spearo77 12y ago

relavent music? https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/child-psychology/id695949726?i=695951271 https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/child-psychology/id6959497...

code_duck 12y ago

This is of interest to me as a member of my family, here on the U.S. (totally non Japanese) fits the syndrome quite closely. As far as I can tell, a combination of social anxiety, depression, pressure, laziness and lack of pressure (enabling behavior from his parents) has led him to not work in over 20 years and live with his parents, socializing online but showing no interest/ability in socializing with people in person... Or doing any productive work. As time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to join society - my relative now is almost 40 but has very little experience in the 'real' world. He has no experience doing things like buying a car, negotiating a mortgage or lease, applying for a job, working at a job, maintaining a household in general, sustaining or building a mature romantic relationship, or any of the other skills he should have learned in his twenties. It's harder to be a 40 year old 18 year old than an 18 year old one.

prawn 12y ago
I think we'll see more cases like this, but also we'll see technology providing people with new ways of functioning. I think a lot of it is about inertia and always choosing the easier path. If your parents enable you to live without having to work, for a lot of people the ease overrides the benefits of work (independence, sense of worth, etc). Down the track, more and more socialising will be digital, more shopping will be online and so on. Some people will exist publicly only as avatars bearing little resemblance to their physical selves.

narrator 12y ago

Does anyone who was born and raised in Japan have anything to say about all this? I've read several threads over the last couple of days on this topic and it seems that the only people who comment on these kinds of stories are at best foreigners living in Japan. Is this a taboo topic for native born Japanese?

w1ntermute 12y ago
> Is this a taboo topic for native born Japanese? No, it's just that there aren't that many native born Japanese who are fluent in English or visit Western websites.

jhou2 12y ago

I might be way off, but I tend to view this from an economic perspective in that these young (and not so young) shut-ins, in a pragmatic sense, don't need to work to survive. Their parents are able to provide for them all the basic needs for life - mostly shelter and food. It is a relatively small marginal expense to the parents who usually already have fair incomes. Until the parents pass away, which may take some time with Japan's famously long lifespans, most of these shut-ins will probably be alright. Another aspect I find interesting is that the article is written mostly from an extrovert's perspective on culture. For an introvert, it seems like paradise to be a shut-in. I get fed, cared for, and I can focus on my internal life and interests, with no need to deal with others and all the problems they bring. As an introvert focused on myself and my own well-being, there seems nothing wrong with being a shut-in. Of course there are macro-economic arguments against it, but from a micro-economic point of view where I only care about my own needs, I would be satisfied with a shut-in life.

doyoulikeworms 12y ago
One doctor in the article states that the diagnosis criteria ought to include whether or not the shut-in is unhappy with the situation. A happy hermit would not be a hikikomori in his eyes. That said, I'm an introvert myself as well. Spending time with others in a social setting drains me mentally, and I prefer being alone or with my SO. But if I never left the house for months or years, it would be quite depressing for me. I think the issue goes beyond people who simply don't like spending time with others. People are suffering.
Red_Tarsius 12y ago
I'm extremely introvert and – as a student, not a neet! – I've lived the past months in a manner similar to that described by the article. I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.
- marincounty 12y ago
  I apologize for the--know it all--you are responding to. The one thing that really irritates me about Americans(including myself at one time) is we think we know, or have the the answers to Everything! I can kind of stomach it when it comes to our culture, but it become nauseous when we comment on other, usually better cultures.

wallflower 12y ago

One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day). Even just being in an environment (yes, open workspace) with some kind of energy/noise is good for someone who is so inwardly focused they tend to not need headphones in such an environment. As someone who has done mini shut-ins of almost double-digit days at a time (with corresponding spike in News.YC activity), I believe that once you get off a regular schedule it can be hard to recover. Having some facsimile or proxy of human communication, be it Facebook or people 'liking' your News.YC submissions (or even worse comments), is like empty fast food calories for social attention - but still nourishing at some basic level. Like they say for people who may be divorced, keeping busy with some project or activity is a smoke screen for feeling lonely. Ultimately, the smoke may clear and you'll feel intense spurts of sadness. Yet - your friends and acquaintances won't know because they think you're always doing interesting things with different circles of people. People tend to see what they want to see.

doyoulikeworms 12y ago
I left my job to make video games, mostly solo. I'm financially able to pursue this lifestyle for the foreseeable future. > One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day). You hit the nail on the head for me. What I miss most from a normal job isn't money or status, but simply being around other people. I never once thought that I would have felt this way. I'll be joining a coworking space when money permits, to be sure.
- chipsy 12y ago
  Your HN profile says you are in the Bay Area. If Oakland is within reach, we run a free coworking session every Tuesday afternoon. It is primarily social in nature(with occasional "everybody is busy" days). [0] More generally, I try to make my daily routine get me out of the house before I turn on the computer. That is, either I go out of the house and go to the gym, then work when I come back, or I go out of the house and sit down at a coffeeshop and work for two-to-four hours, then go to the gym, then come back. Changing locale tends to matter a lot to me, even if I'm not actually social while I'm out. [0] http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Game-Jamming-Game-Design/events/219976985/ http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Game-Jamming-Game-Design/e...

nichtich 12y ago

I think this is relevant. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547 As opposed to some other commentator, I don't think the shut-ins are actually content with being isolated. It's more like a trap that you fell into and don't know how to climb out of. If society don't try to help them, (some of) them may fell down even further, to the point of suicide.

deleted 12y ago

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jkot 12y ago

So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale. Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. But with internet everyone can see that ordinary western people live happy lives, without working themselves to death. I bet most hikimori just want to live western way. Go to nice college, have a few parties, eventually graduate and work 9-5 job. This is simply not an option in Japan, with its elite schools and work culture. 'Saving those people' without providing better alternative is a nonsense. They are already on path they are most happy with. Shaming and dressing it as mental illness is not going to work.

oxide 12y ago
great perspective.
semperfaux 12y ago
Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of women tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it. But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.
- Morgawr 12y ago

Animats 12y ago

There's a public service announcement for hikikomori: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Y7R5zP0wc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Y7R5zP0wc This, strangely, is in English. Support website for hikikomori: http://www.newstart-jimu.org http://www.newstart-jimu.org

Red_Tarsius 12y ago

I think the Hikikomori phenomenon has been widespreading due to its popularization. imho being a shut-in has become a codified cry for help, a way to express a certain discomfort backed up by social proof. It has nothing to do with being lazy or spoiled, as implied in Japanese media like the Welcome to the NHK anime; I've yet to read the novel. Hikikomori exists outside of Japan too. I recommend you to watch the following video about hermitism and shut-ins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bv5gaN4LI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bv5gaN4LI

nemesisrobot 12y ago

The first time I'd heard of hikikomori was in Ready Player One by Ernest Cline

kbart 12y ago

"People who consider themselves hikikomori exhibit a wide range of symptoms, including depressive, autistic and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. A minority appear addicted to the Internet" That's strange, I always thought Internet was the main cause of this problem. I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight.

lmm 12y ago
> I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight. Nah, many of those are in internet cafés, and social pressure seems to be at least part of what keeps them playing (you don't see it happening with non-online games, after all). Different condition.
semperfaux 12y ago
That's definitely not hikikomori. The real thing basically never leaves its room, with family providing food. Even a less extreme example almost certainly would never leave the home for long enough to die anywhere else. They do often spend a lot of time on the internet, but it's not a cause, it's a related fixation (when you're trapped -- by what's probably some combination of your own preference and perceived outside forces -- in a room, the internet provides a wealth of things to do). It's a social malaise that might as well be an extension of the NEET phenomenon.
- antihero 12y ago
  What happens when a hikkomori gets kicked out of the house? My immediate thought running through my mind was that if these were my kids, they'd get the boot. Obviously things aren't that simple, but has anyone actually tried that? What happens? Do they just die?
- anon4 12y ago
  >the real thing basically never leaves its room >thing >its They are still people, even if you disagree or outright hate how they live their life. If this was an attempt at making the sentence gender-neutral, please use "one(s)" and "they" in the future like so: The real ones basically never leave their room, with...

jalcazar 12y ago

The following paragraph is key to understand the phenomenon. I'm a western who have been living in Japan for years and is still difficult to understand how parents allow and support their children to be hikikomori. “In western society, it’s difficult to understand this situation,” Dr. Kato says. “Western society parents strongly push [their children] to go out. But in Japan, parents are strongly afraid to push.”

Aeolun 12y ago
What is your alternative then? Push them and if they don't respond throw them out onto the street? Once your children understand that you won't actually throw them out, any conversation pushing them is just negatively reinforcing their impression that interaction is a problem, not a solution.

Kiro 12y ago

I only skimmed the article but are there hikikomoris who are happy with their life? I'm an introvert who is happily anti-social and wouldn't mind staying home all the time if I could afford it.

id 12y ago
I wonder if you would still say this after years of staying home without ever leaving it.
Morgawr 12y ago
Happiness is very hard to define. Some people (most of them, actually) might be content with what they do, it doesn't mean that they are intrinsically happy about it. I've spent my fair share of time in isolation and I have to say that I've always felt happy about my lifestyle until I realized how much I missed my friends and family or even just going outside. I only realized this after the fact, not during. The problem is that your perspective of the world around you is warped and can easily lead you into thinking you are happy with what you have, simply because you are too afraid to go out and experience what you're missing so you just start believing this is what you want. For some people, it might be true, though. Regardless of this fact, this is a very unhealthy and unsustainable lifestyle which should be corrected and these people should be helped. I don't see it much different from somebody being addicted to drugs. Sure, they might be happy taking drugs, but that's not going to work well forever. (Obviously this is an exaggerated example)
tendies 12y ago
It only works if you have a garuntee that you can be a shut in till the day you die. Other things to worry about is getting health/dental care. I've been a shut in for 5 years now, I was pretty content and happy for the first few years. It was only until my parents started having financial troubles and begun the process of divorce when it turned into hell. Everyday I'm terrified by the thought that one day I'll have to go back to society. I knew some people that went through this and they have mostly ended up homeless because they simply were too under qualified to get a job. Health care is a problem too, I do my best to stay in shape and eat healthy foods to prevent any major illnesses because if I were to get sick it would mean severe debts as I have 0 savings.

teh_klev 12y ago

Possibly useful insights from similar discussion a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5993441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5993441

bpodgursky 12y ago

I wonder if a mandatory national service or conscription would work to pull some people out of their bubble. I'm not in love with the idea in general, but if you can stop someone from wasting their whole life...

meow_mix 12y ago

Reading over the comments it seems to me that there's some misunderstanding of introversion. There's a large difference between being introverted and being socially isolated. A healthy introvert rarely goes over a day without speaking to someone. Keep in mind introversion does not mean that someone is against seeing people at all.

peter303 12y ago

Similar incidence of agrophobia in USA. This source says is 0.8% in USA. 0.5M/127M in Japan http://www.uptodate.com/contents/agoraphobia-in-adults-epidemiology-pathogenesis-clinical-manifestations-course-and-diagnosis http://www.uptodate.com/contents/agoraphobia-in-adults-epide... Talking about .5% to 1% range.