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I was the engineering manager at my previous employer and we were reconfiguring our office layout. I talked to the engineers and with one exception each person

I was the engineering manager at my previous employer and we were reconfiguring our office layout. I talked to the engineers and with one exception each person wanted private offices. We set up one floor of the office with high cubicle walls, and a lot of sound isolation. So not exactly private offices, but really a pretty nice setup (with the best equipment and furniture available). On a separate floor we had a bullpen with ops folks, people who were on the phone a lot, etc. One by one, each engineer gravitated towards the bullpen until no one spent more than perhaps 1 day per week in the dedicated office space. The part of the office that each engineer had claimed to want to work in became abandoned. I think, in spite of the theoretical want for quiet space and isolation, there's a very human need at work to be in the middle of the action -- to hear what's going on, and to be connected to your colleagues. There were certain tasks and problems for which engineers would walk downstairs and make use of the dedicated space, but it was ultimately not where folks wanted to be on a daily basis.

mgkimsal 12y ago
"(with the best equipment and furniture available)." So... why insist on spending money on high end equipment and furniture while not giving people what they asked for? I was at a place years ago that was happy to spend tens of thousands of high-end chairs, but giving developers private offices (those who wanted them) "cost too much". Bear in mind that they'd custom built a second office with private offices that were sitting empty (and devs were in the second office). The "it costs too much" doesn't carry much water when that sort of money is spent on things that people aren't asking for.
droob 12y ago
People tend to enjoy private alcoves with a view on the action, which is kinda best of both worlds. Christopher Alexander describes that pattern in _A Pattern Language_.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  As do cats.
- LiweiZ 12y ago
  Nice words and thanks for the book recommendation.
  - wwweston 12y ago
    It's also, incidentally, a book that every software engineer using term "design patterns" should spend some time looking at -- it's the origin of the term, and it will probably make you think about whether what we call design patterns are really the same thing or solving the analogous problem.
- ecspike 12y ago
  At my office, I have a real desk and a "satellite" desk in the video editor pod. It's an easy place to go and work on something heads down or when I want a reduction in activity but not down to zero. My have nicknamed that empty desk "The Villa". It even has it's own calendar.
  - nhstanley 12y ago
    I think the two desk idea is great, though I can see it being an issue when space is limited.
- sanderjd 12y ago
  I really don't understand why you hardly ever see 4 to 6 person glass-walled offices with doors around an open collaborative area with comfy seats and coffee tables. That seems like a great and still fairly cost-effective setup.
  - jdcarter 12y ago
    I worked at General Magic, one of the mid-90's "super startups" in silicon valley, and this is very close to how our workspace was structured. While we had cubes, they mostly had high walls except for where the opened to a common space. The common spaces had couches and whiteboards, perfect for collaboration. But when you just needed to focus and write code, there was enough quiet and privacy for that, too.
  - dmur 12y ago
    Sounds like the setup at WeWork offices. Granted, it's a co-working space instead of a single company's office, but I found it to be a good mix when my company worked out of WeWork Golden Gate last year.
  - mmagin 12y ago
    I've experienced a fair amount of "offices are for director-level and above only". In fact, what really gets on my nerves is that we used to have our support people sitting three-to-an-office, and now they sit in a cube farm. It was much better isolating them with people of a similar function (both so that they aren't disturbing other people being on the phone all day, and so that there is less risk of some idiot saying something loudly that it would be impolitic for a customer to hear.)
- sahara 12y ago
  n.b. https://archive.org/details/APatternLanguage https://archive.org/details/APatternLanguage
- jkaunisv1 12y ago
  I'm amazed more people don't make use of that book. It's so chock full of brilliant advice with very reasonable explanations, for so many situations. I'm still not done reading it, because it's massive, but every chapter I read makes me notice new things in the environments I move through.
  - apinstein 12y ago
    Reading "A Pattern Language" immediately changed the build-out plans for our new office. We're truly putting these ideas in practice. We have a large-ish, well-lit open space, surrounded by several conference rooms. The open space is oriented in the overall space such that it's farthest from the door to minimize traffic. We're going to let each team (4-8 people) build out their own workspaces in the open area. They will organize the furniture, control how they physically interface with the rest of the space and other teams, etc. They'll have enough types of furniture to build walls, alcoves, desks, conference tables, social spaces, etc. As projects and teams change, adjustments can be made immediately. I must say it's an exciting yet terrifying prospect, particularly because as with many existing spaces, it's not always possible to follow the prescriptive advice 100%. Additionally, almost no one has ever worked in an office space that is like the Alexander describes, which makes it somewhat of a leap of faith (in Peopleware we trust) that it will all work out. If anyone else out there has already gone through this process, I'd love to hear how it's worked out for you. This is the web page that got me into his work [http://zeta.math.utsa.edu/~yxk833/Chris.furniture.html http://zeta.math.utsa.edu/~yxk833/Chris.furniture.html].
    - strangetimes 12y ago
      You should share the name of your company. Use your attention to humane office space as a competitive advantage when recruiting. See what Joel Spolsky has done with Fog Creek and Stack Exchange.
      - apinstein 12y ago
        Thanks! Actually all that info is available in my HN bio.
nilkn 12y ago
Just having that dedicated space, though, could have been invaluable. Of course, I can't speak to any specifics and can only speculate here, but the fact that at any moment they could just walk downstairs to find a quiet dedicated space for serious work probably was pretty liberating. They probably felt at ease to utilize the noisy, energetic space upstairs because they knew they weren't confined to it should they need privacy.
Cthulhu_ 12y ago
I honestly wouldn't mind an open office space, as long as there's measures in place for privacy, noise levels (like the sound absorbent material on the ceilings in some of those pictures), and visual distractions (a big enough screen works for me). I think that's the main difference a lot of people will perceive when it comes to open office vs private office / cubicles. I don't mind a bit of background noise, but in some of the open plans I've worked at it quickly escalated into a chaotic cacophony because of a lack of sound insulation.
nolk100 12y ago
> I think, in spite of the theoretical want for quiet space and isolation, there's a very human need at work to be in the middle of the action This is why I, and many others like working in coffee shops. There's usually an ambient background noise which makes it feel like you are involved in something, but it doesn't require your direct attention. I think there's also a subconscious element to having activity around you which keeps you focussed. I personally find it easy to look at cat videos on the internet when no one can see my screen, but when I know people might walk past me when at a coffee shop, or at work, it keeps me focussed.
- bdcravens 12y ago
  I like working in coffee shops, except for the fact that I often have to go to the trouble of getting there to find nowhere to sit, since it filled up with squatters that have been there 3+ hours (several of which are one person filling up a big table, with everything spread around like it's their personal desk)
  - xacaxulu 12y ago
    I use this app (also a webapp if you don't want to download) called Coffitivity https://coffitivity.com/ https://coffitivity.com/ which recreates the unintelligible murmur of a coffee shop. I find with decent headphones, it acts as a good sort of white noise in open work spaces.
    - jdcarter 12y ago
      That's so funny in way, the noise of a coffee shop in your own private workspace! It's so weird that I might actually use it.
  - jff 12y ago
    So you're saying you like working in coffee shops, but it's hard to find a seat because there's all these other people working in coffee shops?
    - 12y ago
bsirkia 12y ago
I wonder if that just shows that having the both the open bullpen and quiet space as dueling options is ineffective. FOMO is extremely strong in everyone, so even though engineers might prefer and be more productive in a quiet space, they're afraid of missing out on the action in the bullpen so migrate there.
ojbyrne 12y ago
People don't necessarily want to be more productive, nor recognize when they're aren't.
untog 12y ago
Some ancedata to back up your point - I am exactly like that. However, I do appreciate an isolated space from time to time. Maybe the optimum is providing private spaces totaling, say, 1/3 of your staff. Then people can go use them whenever they want, but you're not wasting so much space.
mlwarren 12y ago
I would probably be a holdout for the private office. I've been opting to work from home as much as I can from my quiet home office rather than go to the office. My colleagues are all very responsive via email/IM so that helps a lot when we need to converse.
idkMaybeImonly1 12y ago
I used to think like you guys, how the fuck would I get any work done if I'm in the middle with so many people doing so many different things in the same time. Someone is narrating his/her life story, other one talking about his views on x and so on. However, after working on similar environment for a year and now working on a really private cubes. I prefer the open spaces, it's more fun. YOU CANNOT SLACK IN OPEN SPACES. I used only code code code whole day and now in a private cube I spent hours on HN, reddit and 2/3 hrs for work. Yes, the company is fine but I don't feel I'm producing as much as I can. Why? Because I can slack in private cubes unlike in open spaces where I want to prove among these peoples. edit: Sorry for bad English. I cannot slack in open spaces, that's why I like them.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  So which one is it? Do you slack more, or less, in private space? I personally find open space distracting. When I'm separated, I do browse a lot of HN and stuff - but at some point I eventually concentrate, gain speed, and start getting the work done. Not so in open-space; there I find it hard to do anything else than read HN or talk on IRC. Partly because I find the presence of other people unnerving and annoying when I'm working.
  - Nannooskeeska 12y ago
    I'm the exact same way you are. I get more work done in the couple of hours per day that I'm at work before the rest of the team than I do the rest of the time.
- rilita 12y ago
  Slack should be handled by effective management. Having clearly defined deadlines and checkups on progress prevents people from wasting time in a detrimental way. Instilling fear in your devs by threatening to expose them when they goof off is not how you should treat professionals. So I goof off. Perhaps I don't even work for an entire day. Am I meeting the schedule laid out for me? Am I producing as much as expected while being happy and carefully managing my output? Forcing engineers to work nonstop is a good way to create buggy software. There needs to be a shift in the industry to respecting what people get done rather than how many hours they spent working on it.
Swizec 12y ago
Did the private offices feel nice or soulsickingly without character? I dont' know why, but your description makes the offices sound like the last place I would want to be. Small, cramped, dark, and soulsuckingly unalive. The bullpen wasn't more productive, but it had character. It made people feel good. Made them feel welcome.
Iftheshoefits 12y ago
Your employees had the choice between drab isolating cubicles bathed in depressing internal lighting and something else, which they eventually chose. I think maybe you should reconsider what that means. Perhaps your engineers weren't as interested as other parries in pretending cubicles--no matter how fancy--are the same thing as offices. Anecdotally, at my current job I prefer working in a room where there are from three to five other engineers and lots of electronics around over working in the cube I'm assigned, but if I had a genuinely private office with a window, even overlooking a parking lot, I'd take it and work there 99% of the time, and be more productive if past experience is any indication.
- rilita 12y ago
  Cubicles do not have to be drab and have depressing lighting. Everywhere I have gone I decorate my cubicle so it feels happy for me and I often bring my own full spectrum lighting. The size of the cubicle has to be quite large for it to not be suffocating though. I could easily fit 4 people seated inside my current cubicle, and it feels quite nice. I do agree that having private offices is way better, and the idea of having a building full of private offices seems great, but it is much more expensive than open floorplans with cubes. ( consider heating/cooling of many offices... having a maze of pathways to maximize the size of offices... ) Concentric rings of offices might work as a floorplan though??
  - jakobegger 12y ago
    Are you suggesting offices without windows?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      A circle of offices with windows to the outside. An inner corridor to connect them. Another ring of offices with windows to the middle. Like a big donut. Also, for some offices you do not want any windows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut
      - 12y ago
legohead 12y ago
I worked at a place that had a kind of combination -- actual offices, but with 2-4 people in them. I actually loved it, but I also got along with who I was paired with. We could talk all day, play loud music we liked, and still have "privacy".
- Corrado 12y ago
  Yes, my best working experiences have been in a smallish area with space for 2-4 people. We all faced into a corner but were able to talk/collaborate easily by turning around. We also worked on the same thing so it was pretty easy to get into a groove.
patentAbuse 12y ago
I have a similar story, but the outcomes differ significantly. When we were planning some new office space for a move, some of the staff wanted open concept, while others wanted their own space with privacy. It was a tough conversation given that a moral air was added to it -- one where those who favored open concept were collaborative and selfless, while those who wanted a private space were selfish and insular. Regardless, we designed a new office space that had both (it was designed for significant growth): An open area, similar to what was trending in the "startup world" (cargo culting), and private areas (not quite private offices, but tall private cubicle walls on all sides, strong sound abatement, no concern that someone is creeping behind you, etc). We moved and let people pick their spots essentially anonymously. Every single one chose a private area, with the majority selecting the most private area which ended up being assigned by a random drawing. Indeed, it struck me that the person who was the most outspoken about open concept and all that jazz was the one who complained the most about others intruding in their quiet zone (they complained about music, loud conversations between peers, etc).
Blackthorn 12y ago
You can't really take from this experience that people don't want private offices, though (you didn't exactly say it, but I think the implication is there). As you admitted, your engineers didn't actually get private offices, they got cubes with high walls! That's a pretty major difference.
j_baker 12y ago
Research has shown that engineers really tend to dislike being interrupted by outsiders (managers, salespeople, etc), but really tolerate a lot of interruptions from other engineers[1]. I feel like there has to be a happy medium. Ok, so we're not going to end up getting (and maybe shouldn't end up getting) private offices or dedicated workspaces. Those may inhibit our ability to collaborate with other engineers. But open bullpen layouts leave the worker with no privacy and allow unlimited interruptions by outsiders. [1] Source: http://books.google.pl/books?id=QZPpdB_yfqgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jemielniak&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1M18UceYDKKw4QSg9YDQBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=jemielniak&f=false http://books.google.pl/books?id=QZPpdB_yfqgC&printsec=frontc...
- _wiv7 12y ago
  I think one of the key flaws with a lot of bullpen setups is this: They're too big, and they include hallway area where people from unrelated teams walk through having irrelevant conversations all day. A much better solution would be maybe a ~500 sq ft (~50 m^2) big shared office with a window, populated with people that work on the same project.
- stalcottsmith 12y ago
  I found the happy medium when I designed our company's office layout. I called it "Cave and Campfire" -- blending collaborative team rooms connected by sound-isolating glass and half-glass walls to a common area with standup tables and info radiators. http://blog.aelogica.com/business/cave-and-campfire-our-custom-office-layout-for-professional-agile-development-pair-programming/ http://blog.aelogica.com/business/cave-and-campfire-our-cust...
venomsnake 12y ago
Private office = something with lock from inside. If I cannot restrict access of outside people at will it is not private.
abalone 12y ago
Which is why the less dynamic an organization you work in, the harder it is to comprehend the importance of ad hoc realtime collaboration. It trades a hit on personal focus for a big uptick in collab and team productivity. To get a sense of where the OP is coming from, here's what he wrote recently on remote work: "Some of the most blissfully productive days I’ve had are when my whole team is working remote because a winter storm has left us snowbound. There’s nothing quite like the glorious zone of productivity sans soul-crushing interruptions." Cornell did a study awhile back that found that when you have a private office, the standard for "frequent" team interaction goes down. Way down. From several times a day ad hoc (open plan) to a couple times a week in scheduled meetings.
- rilita 12y ago
  This is an either-or way of looking at it. There are other options. Consider Valve; the most wildly profitable game company that exists: Their strategy is to allow people to move their desks around however they wish, anytime they want. Want to have some time along? Move your desk away from the herd and grind away. Need to handle a sudden need that requires lots of team interactivity? Arrange your desks in a small circle for maximum interaction. The problem with companies in general is that they are run by management who have been trained that fixed structure is the most effective way to get things done. Structures are good; but they don't have to be fixed. There are pluses and minuses to every single methodology. Blend.
edw519 12y ago
Programmers work in multiple modes, for me they are: Mode 1: Preparing to program Mode 2: Programming Mode 3: Reviewing my code The mix varies among projects and even days, but I usually spend more than half of my time in Mode 2: Programming. With a few exceptions, I can do Modes 1 and 3 almost anywhere, and sometimes they need to be done with others, so an open office/meeting room can be great for these. But for Programming with any quality, I must have silence and no interruptions. I have never found this in an open office or cubicle. I can only do Mode 2 in a private office or at home. Programmers want offices because they could need a safe haven for Mode 2 at almost any time. If you're in an office, you can always find another place to be with others, but if you're not in an office, you constantly struggle to find a place to get into Mode 2.
- rilita 12y ago
  While I agree that this outlook applies to "programmers" I do not agree that this is a good plan for skilled engineers. Proper software development is not just about code. Things that you are skipping in your modes: 1. Comprehending the business value and purpose of the project. 2. Interacting with end users 3. Testing ( unit testing, testing for feature completion, exploratory testing ) 4. Time management ( scrum meetings or various alteratives ) 5. Mentoring others 6. UI design and refinement 7. Bug tracking and resolution 8. Future planning/system maintenance 9. Disaster scenarios 10. System backups 11. System optimizations 12. Data structure/design All of the things I have listed here should be understood by good engineers. They don't have to do them all, but they should dabble in all of them over time in order to be more effective. There is no single setting that works best for all of these behaviors. It takes multiple areas and modes of interaction to accomplish everything that is needed for proper application development.
  - dpritchett 12y ago
    I am willing to bet that Ed handles all of those activities as needed in modes 1 and 3. Breaking down "prep" and "review" into detailed bits doesn't really challenge his assertion that the core activity of actual programming regularly requires autonomous isolation.
api 12y ago
I personally would love to just work on a laptop and have "docks." I'd like my "home" to be in a public area so that I could come in and socialize, but I'd like private rooms where I could retreat for quiet time.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mcguire 12y ago
It sounds like the people in the bullpen were defining the work products for the engineers. If your current "customer" (for lack of a better word) is used to working in a bullpen, you had better be in the bullpen as well, if you want to get anything done. Lately, I've been doing two sorts of things: short turn-around bug-fixes and enhancements and longer-term major development. If I try to do the short turn-around work without being in the same room as the customer/tester/what-have-you non-developer, the latency of email/IM means less work gets done, which is frustrating for both sides. On the other hand, if I try to do major development while in the same room as the other people, my work simply won't get done due to the interruptions and general inability to concentrate.
ArkyBeagle 12y ago
I find that utterly incredible. “All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” - Blaise Pascal. It's true. I have never gotten in trouble sitting quietly in a room alone.

mgkimsal 12y ago

"(with the best equipment and furniture available)." So... why insist on spending money on high end equipment and furniture while not giving people what they asked for? I was at a place years ago that was happy to spend tens of thousands of high-end chairs, but giving developers private offices (those who wanted them) "cost too much". Bear in mind that they'd custom built a second office with private offices that were sitting empty (and devs were in the second office). The "it costs too much" doesn't carry much water when that sort of money is spent on things that people aren't asking for.

droob 12y ago

People tend to enjoy private alcoves with a view on the action, which is kinda best of both worlds. Christopher Alexander describes that pattern in _A Pattern Language_.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
As do cats.
LiweiZ 12y ago
Nice words and thanks for the book recommendation.
- wwweston 12y ago
  It's also, incidentally, a book that every software engineer using term "design patterns" should spend some time looking at -- it's the origin of the term, and it will probably make you think about whether what we call design patterns are really the same thing or solving the analogous problem.
ecspike 12y ago
At my office, I have a real desk and a "satellite" desk in the video editor pod. It's an easy place to go and work on something heads down or when I want a reduction in activity but not down to zero. My have nicknamed that empty desk "The Villa". It even has it's own calendar.
- nhstanley 12y ago
  I think the two desk idea is great, though I can see it being an issue when space is limited.
sanderjd 12y ago
I really don't understand why you hardly ever see 4 to 6 person glass-walled offices with doors around an open collaborative area with comfy seats and coffee tables. That seems like a great and still fairly cost-effective setup.
- jdcarter 12y ago
  I worked at General Magic, one of the mid-90's "super startups" in silicon valley, and this is very close to how our workspace was structured. While we had cubes, they mostly had high walls except for where the opened to a common space. The common spaces had couches and whiteboards, perfect for collaboration. But when you just needed to focus and write code, there was enough quiet and privacy for that, too.
- dmur 12y ago
  Sounds like the setup at WeWork offices. Granted, it's a co-working space instead of a single company's office, but I found it to be a good mix when my company worked out of WeWork Golden Gate last year.
- mmagin 12y ago
  I've experienced a fair amount of "offices are for director-level and above only". In fact, what really gets on my nerves is that we used to have our support people sitting three-to-an-office, and now they sit in a cube farm. It was much better isolating them with people of a similar function (both so that they aren't disturbing other people being on the phone all day, and so that there is less risk of some idiot saying something loudly that it would be impolitic for a customer to hear.)
sahara 12y ago
n.b. https://archive.org/details/APatternLanguage https://archive.org/details/APatternLanguage
jkaunisv1 12y ago
I'm amazed more people don't make use of that book. It's so chock full of brilliant advice with very reasonable explanations, for so many situations. I'm still not done reading it, because it's massive, but every chapter I read makes me notice new things in the environments I move through.
- apinstein 12y ago
  Reading "A Pattern Language" immediately changed the build-out plans for our new office. We're truly putting these ideas in practice. We have a large-ish, well-lit open space, surrounded by several conference rooms. The open space is oriented in the overall space such that it's farthest from the door to minimize traffic. We're going to let each team (4-8 people) build out their own workspaces in the open area. They will organize the furniture, control how they physically interface with the rest of the space and other teams, etc. They'll have enough types of furniture to build walls, alcoves, desks, conference tables, social spaces, etc. As projects and teams change, adjustments can be made immediately. I must say it's an exciting yet terrifying prospect, particularly because as with many existing spaces, it's not always possible to follow the prescriptive advice 100%. Additionally, almost no one has ever worked in an office space that is like the Alexander describes, which makes it somewhat of a leap of faith (in Peopleware we trust) that it will all work out. If anyone else out there has already gone through this process, I'd love to hear how it's worked out for you. This is the web page that got me into his work [http://zeta.math.utsa.edu/~yxk833/Chris.furniture.html http://zeta.math.utsa.edu/~yxk833/Chris.furniture.html].
  - strangetimes 12y ago
    You should share the name of your company. Use your attention to humane office space as a competitive advantage when recruiting. See what Joel Spolsky has done with Fog Creek and Stack Exchange.
    - apinstein 12y ago
      Thanks! Actually all that info is available in my HN bio.

nilkn 12y ago

Just having that dedicated space, though, could have been invaluable. Of course, I can't speak to any specifics and can only speculate here, but the fact that at any moment they could just walk downstairs to find a quiet dedicated space for serious work probably was pretty liberating. They probably felt at ease to utilize the noisy, energetic space upstairs because they knew they weren't confined to it should they need privacy.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago

I honestly wouldn't mind an open office space, as long as there's measures in place for privacy, noise levels (like the sound absorbent material on the ceilings in some of those pictures), and visual distractions (a big enough screen works for me). I think that's the main difference a lot of people will perceive when it comes to open office vs private office / cubicles. I don't mind a bit of background noise, but in some of the open plans I've worked at it quickly escalated into a chaotic cacophony because of a lack of sound insulation.

nolk100 12y ago

> I think, in spite of the theoretical want for quiet space and isolation, there's a very human need at work to be in the middle of the action This is why I, and many others like working in coffee shops. There's usually an ambient background noise which makes it feel like you are involved in something, but it doesn't require your direct attention. I think there's also a subconscious element to having activity around you which keeps you focussed. I personally find it easy to look at cat videos on the internet when no one can see my screen, but when I know people might walk past me when at a coffee shop, or at work, it keeps me focussed.

bdcravens 12y ago
I like working in coffee shops, except for the fact that I often have to go to the trouble of getting there to find nowhere to sit, since it filled up with squatters that have been there 3+ hours (several of which are one person filling up a big table, with everything spread around like it's their personal desk)
- xacaxulu 12y ago
  I use this app (also a webapp if you don't want to download) called Coffitivity https://coffitivity.com/ https://coffitivity.com/ which recreates the unintelligible murmur of a coffee shop. I find with decent headphones, it acts as a good sort of white noise in open work spaces.
  - jdcarter 12y ago
    That's so funny in way, the noise of a coffee shop in your own private workspace! It's so weird that I might actually use it.
- jff 12y ago
  So you're saying you like working in coffee shops, but it's hard to find a seat because there's all these other people working in coffee shops?
  - 12y ago

bsirkia 12y ago

I wonder if that just shows that having the both the open bullpen and quiet space as dueling options is ineffective. FOMO is extremely strong in everyone, so even though engineers might prefer and be more productive in a quiet space, they're afraid of missing out on the action in the bullpen so migrate there.

ojbyrne 12y ago

People don't necessarily want to be more productive, nor recognize when they're aren't.

untog 12y ago

Some ancedata to back up your point - I am exactly like that. However, I do appreciate an isolated space from time to time. Maybe the optimum is providing private spaces totaling, say, 1/3 of your staff. Then people can go use them whenever they want, but you're not wasting so much space.

mlwarren 12y ago

I would probably be a holdout for the private office. I've been opting to work from home as much as I can from my quiet home office rather than go to the office. My colleagues are all very responsive via email/IM so that helps a lot when we need to converse.

idkMaybeImonly1 12y ago

I used to think like you guys, how the fuck would I get any work done if I'm in the middle with so many people doing so many different things in the same time. Someone is narrating his/her life story, other one talking about his views on x and so on. However, after working on similar environment for a year and now working on a really private cubes. I prefer the open spaces, it's more fun. YOU CANNOT SLACK IN OPEN SPACES. I used only code code code whole day and now in a private cube I spent hours on HN, reddit and 2/3 hrs for work. Yes, the company is fine but I don't feel I'm producing as much as I can. Why? Because I can slack in private cubes unlike in open spaces where I want to prove among these peoples. edit: Sorry for bad English. I cannot slack in open spaces, that's why I like them.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
So which one is it? Do you slack more, or less, in private space? I personally find open space distracting. When I'm separated, I do browse a lot of HN and stuff - but at some point I eventually concentrate, gain speed, and start getting the work done. Not so in open-space; there I find it hard to do anything else than read HN or talk on IRC. Partly because I find the presence of other people unnerving and annoying when I'm working.
- Nannooskeeska 12y ago
  I'm the exact same way you are. I get more work done in the couple of hours per day that I'm at work before the rest of the team than I do the rest of the time.
rilita 12y ago
Slack should be handled by effective management. Having clearly defined deadlines and checkups on progress prevents people from wasting time in a detrimental way. Instilling fear in your devs by threatening to expose them when they goof off is not how you should treat professionals. So I goof off. Perhaps I don't even work for an entire day. Am I meeting the schedule laid out for me? Am I producing as much as expected while being happy and carefully managing my output? Forcing engineers to work nonstop is a good way to create buggy software. There needs to be a shift in the industry to respecting what people get done rather than how many hours they spent working on it.

Swizec 12y ago

Did the private offices feel nice or soulsickingly without character? I dont' know why, but your description makes the offices sound like the last place I would want to be. Small, cramped, dark, and soulsuckingly unalive. The bullpen wasn't more productive, but it had character. It made people feel good. Made them feel welcome.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago

Your employees had the choice between drab isolating cubicles bathed in depressing internal lighting and something else, which they eventually chose. I think maybe you should reconsider what that means. Perhaps your engineers weren't as interested as other parries in pretending cubicles--no matter how fancy--are the same thing as offices. Anecdotally, at my current job I prefer working in a room where there are from three to five other engineers and lots of electronics around over working in the cube I'm assigned, but if I had a genuinely private office with a window, even overlooking a parking lot, I'd take it and work there 99% of the time, and be more productive if past experience is any indication.

rilita 12y ago
Cubicles do not have to be drab and have depressing lighting. Everywhere I have gone I decorate my cubicle so it feels happy for me and I often bring my own full spectrum lighting. The size of the cubicle has to be quite large for it to not be suffocating though. I could easily fit 4 people seated inside my current cubicle, and it feels quite nice. I do agree that having private offices is way better, and the idea of having a building full of private offices seems great, but it is much more expensive than open floorplans with cubes. ( consider heating/cooling of many offices... having a maze of pathways to maximize the size of offices... ) Concentric rings of offices might work as a floorplan though??
- jakobegger 12y ago
  Are you suggesting offices without windows?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    A circle of offices with windows to the outside. An inner corridor to connect them. Another ring of offices with windows to the middle. Like a big donut. Also, for some offices you do not want any windows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut
    - 12y ago

legohead 12y ago

I worked at a place that had a kind of combination -- actual offices, but with 2-4 people in them. I actually loved it, but I also got along with who I was paired with. We could talk all day, play loud music we liked, and still have "privacy".

Corrado 12y ago
Yes, my best working experiences have been in a smallish area with space for 2-4 people. We all faced into a corner but were able to talk/collaborate easily by turning around. We also worked on the same thing so it was pretty easy to get into a groove.

patentAbuse 12y ago

I have a similar story, but the outcomes differ significantly. When we were planning some new office space for a move, some of the staff wanted open concept, while others wanted their own space with privacy. It was a tough conversation given that a moral air was added to it -- one where those who favored open concept were collaborative and selfless, while those who wanted a private space were selfish and insular. Regardless, we designed a new office space that had both (it was designed for significant growth): An open area, similar to what was trending in the "startup world" (cargo culting), and private areas (not quite private offices, but tall private cubicle walls on all sides, strong sound abatement, no concern that someone is creeping behind you, etc). We moved and let people pick their spots essentially anonymously. Every single one chose a private area, with the majority selecting the most private area which ended up being assigned by a random drawing. Indeed, it struck me that the person who was the most outspoken about open concept and all that jazz was the one who complained the most about others intruding in their quiet zone (they complained about music, loud conversations between peers, etc).

Blackthorn 12y ago

You can't really take from this experience that people don't want private offices, though (you didn't exactly say it, but I think the implication is there). As you admitted, your engineers didn't actually get private offices, they got cubes with high walls! That's a pretty major difference.

j_baker 12y ago

Research has shown that engineers really tend to dislike being interrupted by outsiders (managers, salespeople, etc), but really tolerate a lot of interruptions from other engineers[1]. I feel like there has to be a happy medium. Ok, so we're not going to end up getting (and maybe shouldn't end up getting) private offices or dedicated workspaces. Those may inhibit our ability to collaborate with other engineers. But open bullpen layouts leave the worker with no privacy and allow unlimited interruptions by outsiders. [1] Source: http://books.google.pl/books?id=QZPpdB_yfqgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jemielniak&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1M18UceYDKKw4QSg9YDQBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=jemielniak&f=false http://books.google.pl/books?id=QZPpdB_yfqgC&printsec=frontc...

_wiv7 12y ago
I think one of the key flaws with a lot of bullpen setups is this: They're too big, and they include hallway area where people from unrelated teams walk through having irrelevant conversations all day. A much better solution would be maybe a ~500 sq ft (~50 m^2) big shared office with a window, populated with people that work on the same project.
stalcottsmith 12y ago
I found the happy medium when I designed our company's office layout. I called it "Cave and Campfire" -- blending collaborative team rooms connected by sound-isolating glass and half-glass walls to a common area with standup tables and info radiators. http://blog.aelogica.com/business/cave-and-campfire-our-custom-office-layout-for-professional-agile-development-pair-programming/ http://blog.aelogica.com/business/cave-and-campfire-our-cust...

venomsnake 12y ago

Private office = something with lock from inside. If I cannot restrict access of outside people at will it is not private.

abalone 12y ago

Which is why the less dynamic an organization you work in, the harder it is to comprehend the importance of ad hoc realtime collaboration. It trades a hit on personal focus for a big uptick in collab and team productivity. To get a sense of where the OP is coming from, here's what he wrote recently on remote work: "Some of the most blissfully productive days I’ve had are when my whole team is working remote because a winter storm has left us snowbound. There’s nothing quite like the glorious zone of productivity sans soul-crushing interruptions." Cornell did a study awhile back that found that when you have a private office, the standard for "frequent" team interaction goes down. Way down. From several times a day ad hoc (open plan) to a couple times a week in scheduled meetings.

rilita 12y ago
This is an either-or way of looking at it. There are other options. Consider Valve; the most wildly profitable game company that exists: Their strategy is to allow people to move their desks around however they wish, anytime they want. Want to have some time along? Move your desk away from the herd and grind away. Need to handle a sudden need that requires lots of team interactivity? Arrange your desks in a small circle for maximum interaction. The problem with companies in general is that they are run by management who have been trained that fixed structure is the most effective way to get things done. Structures are good; but they don't have to be fixed. There are pluses and minuses to every single methodology. Blend.

edw519 12y ago

Programmers work in multiple modes, for me they are: Mode 1: Preparing to program Mode 2: Programming Mode 3: Reviewing my code The mix varies among projects and even days, but I usually spend more than half of my time in Mode 2: Programming. With a few exceptions, I can do Modes 1 and 3 almost anywhere, and sometimes they need to be done with others, so an open office/meeting room can be great for these. But for Programming with any quality, I must have silence and no interruptions. I have never found this in an open office or cubicle. I can only do Mode 2 in a private office or at home. Programmers want offices because they could need a safe haven for Mode 2 at almost any time. If you're in an office, you can always find another place to be with others, but if you're not in an office, you constantly struggle to find a place to get into Mode 2.

rilita 12y ago
While I agree that this outlook applies to "programmers" I do not agree that this is a good plan for skilled engineers. Proper software development is not just about code. Things that you are skipping in your modes: 1. Comprehending the business value and purpose of the project. 2. Interacting with end users 3. Testing ( unit testing, testing for feature completion, exploratory testing ) 4. Time management ( scrum meetings or various alteratives ) 5. Mentoring others 6. UI design and refinement 7. Bug tracking and resolution 8. Future planning/system maintenance 9. Disaster scenarios 10. System backups 11. System optimizations 12. Data structure/design All of the things I have listed here should be understood by good engineers. They don't have to do them all, but they should dabble in all of them over time in order to be more effective. There is no single setting that works best for all of these behaviors. It takes multiple areas and modes of interaction to accomplish everything that is needed for proper application development.
- dpritchett 12y ago
  I am willing to bet that Ed handles all of those activities as needed in modes 1 and 3. Breaking down "prep" and "review" into detailed bits doesn't really challenge his assertion that the core activity of actual programming regularly requires autonomous isolation.

api 12y ago

I personally would love to just work on a laptop and have "docks." I'd like my "home" to be in a public area so that I could come in and socialize, but I'd like private rooms where I could retreat for quiet time.

deleted 12y ago

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mcguire 12y ago

It sounds like the people in the bullpen were defining the work products for the engineers. If your current "customer" (for lack of a better word) is used to working in a bullpen, you had better be in the bullpen as well, if you want to get anything done. Lately, I've been doing two sorts of things: short turn-around bug-fixes and enhancements and longer-term major development. If I try to do the short turn-around work without being in the same room as the customer/tester/what-have-you non-developer, the latency of email/IM means less work gets done, which is frustrating for both sides. On the other hand, if I try to do major development while in the same room as the other people, my work simply won't get done due to the interruptions and general inability to concentrate.

ArkyBeagle 12y ago

I find that utterly incredible. “All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” - Blaise Pascal. It's true. I have never gotten in trouble sitting quietly in a room alone.