6 ms·

Cirqoid – printed circuit board prototyping machine

62 points by lelf 12y ago

krschultz 12y ago
Rapid prototyping circuit boards is still relatively expensive and limited compared to the options for purely physical objects. I don't believe we will unlock the value of 3D printers until banging out circuit boards is as quick and easy.
- doctoboggan 12y ago
  I just launched a company and our first product is exactly what you described: http://www.voxel8.co http://www.voxel8.co We don't have the resolution to get what most board houses can do, but we can reliably hit pitches (pin to pin spacing) of 800 microns. This allows us to build fully embedded fully 3d circuits using many of the surface mount chips on the market today. As we make our machine more accurate we will eventually be able to hit 500 micron pitch and then we will be able to integrate BGA packages. We'll be there soon!
  - coryrc 12y ago
    Your website has SSL errors
    - doctoboggan 12y ago
      Whoops, I did not mean to link to the HTTPS version. We had that set up previously but when we switched to Squarespace we could no longer use SSL. However my browser still autofills in the HTTPS version. I've updated the link.
  - krschultz 12y ago
    Excellent!
Animats 12y ago
Now that is very nice. It does board milling, pick-and-place, and solder paste. It's the latter two operations that matter. ("In this world, you do not make your own PC boards." - The Art of Electronics. Board houses do it better using photo-etching, are cheaper, give you plated through holes, and have fast turnaround.) Here's a nice hobbyist pick-and-place machine: http://briandorey.com/post/DIY-Pick-and-Place-V2-Project-Complete.aspx http://briandorey.com/post/DIY-Pick-and-Place-V2-Project-Com... This one has a vision system to get precision alignment. In the era of the $10 cell phone camera module, there's no reason to have one without a vision system. You design some fiducial marks on the board, and the vision system goes looking for them to get precision alignment. This makes up for small errors in the board position. When putting down a part, the vision system matches up the expected pattern of pads with what it sees and fine-tunes the position. This is easier than trying to hold everything so rigid that blind placement works. A vision system also lets you check that you picked up a part properly from the feeder, and that it's in place properly after placement. Your little assembly line is then a pick and place machine, a solder-paste dispensing machine, and a reflow oven, which can be a toaster oven with precision temperature controls. There are many small shops in Shenzhen like that.
- hga 12y ago
  Or Joplin, Missouri, USA in the early '80s when my family was making C band LNBs for the home satellite reception market prior to today's K band Direct TV and Dish Network. It's really not that difficult; I'm not sure they even had a pick and place machine when they got started, the LNBs didn't have all that many components.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
    Pretty different paradigm though. In the early 80's P&P machines cost a few arms and a firstborn and probably were automated with paper tape! Your family was almost certainly not using surface mount. Or at least, only for a handful of RF components. The outfit I worked for after leaving college in the late 80's shipped hundreds of boards a month doing everything manually. By the time they folded, the only change was sending them out for wave soldering. These days I can outperform them with a solder paste stencil and a toaster oven. Blows my mind.
dmritard96 12y ago
This is a popular space right now: Voltera: http://volterainc.com/ http://volterainc.com/ Voxel8 Tempo Automation: http://tempoautomation.com/ http://tempoautomation.com/ People are realizing that iterating on electronics is painful hence trying to fix it. The interesting part is the market size, unit costs etc. Also ability to do very small pitch ICs. We got so desperate with pick and place that we literally 3D printed a 3D printer adapter combined with our vacuum pump and Pronterface. https://twitter.com/flairvents https://twitter.com/flairvents
- newhouseb 12y ago
  Woah, nice work with the UM2 pick and place! Do you have any write-ups, resources or even just a BOM?
  - dmritard96 12y ago
    Sure, I put the design up on thingiverse: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:528114 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:528114 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GWGUR6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GWGUR6/ref=oh_aui_detai... Pronterface: https://github.com/kliment/Printrun https://github.com/kliment/Printrun It should be noted that we only used this for the tiny pitch QFNs and other small components that we couldn't do by hand, the easier components we did with tweezers. Once we validated the design with a couple boards, we just had a bunch more assembled over in Freemont CA.
    - durkie 12y ago
      thanks for this! that amazon link is for a 50 pack -- is there any reason someone would need more than one? i've just been using tweezers up till now. any chance you have a video of it in action?
      - dmritard96 12y ago
        not sure whats up with the 50 pack, but I see that on image as well. I'm pretty sure its just one. Didn't take a video - wish i had.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
noonespecial 12y ago
One thing I've learned from using standard CNC mills to do this sort of thing over the years is that the V bit has to be brutally sharp to avoid tearing up the fine traces as it cuts. A high quality cutting bit makes the difference. Also be careful of the dust. Especially from the fiberglass substrates. Its nasty stuff.
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  Yeah, a vacuum attachment seems like a good optional add-on for this system.
CamperBob2 12y ago
Very cool. Add a camera to do pick-and-place alignment automatically, and I'll take one. P&P is pointless with that much manual intervention. Another obvious improvement: offer a hot air nozzle tool, with a preheater in the base. It would be really neat to go from bare copper to an assembled PCB without moving the board. Oh, and an automatic tool changer. :)
pkaye 12y ago
Can it do 4 layer PCBs? Probably the most important thing missing.
jimmyswimmy 12y ago
Not to be negative, but I am simply not impressed. I thought milling PCBs was over about 15 years ago when pcbexpress and the like of plot and go quick turn services came to the market. There is just no reason to mill your own boards anymore (and -ugh- manually fill your own vias) with services around like dirtypcb. If you truly need a quick turnaround, pcbexpress can get you a slightly higher quality board tomorrow for less than $200. That's around 1/15th the cost of this device, and a better product (i.e. less likely to cause a problem which will waste a ton of your time) The pick-n-place aspect is somewhat interesting, but HaD had a project for a $300 pnp machine; I expect to see something like it on kickstartr soon.
- snarfy 12y ago
  But I only need two boards. My next project needs one board. And the one after that one board. I could get some etchant and start cooking, or I can use a mill for my one-off projects.
  - bravo22 12y ago
    What about vias? If your board is that simple then just use a breadboard. Also you can get one off simple 2 layer boards for $25.
    - snarfy 12y ago
      > Also you can get one off simple 2 layer boards for $25. Where? I haven't really looked into outsourcing it. I assume like most things it's a hefty cost for the first one due to setup and tooling, and the rest are dirt cheap. I'm a hobbyist so a mill like that is interesting, but as a hobbyist I'm not really aware of all the options. It seems much better than messing with etchant. The designs that use SMD components aren't going to work with breadboard. No vias as they are single layer.
      - bravo22 12y ago
        Cheap 2-4 layer PCBs in US: http://www.pentalogix.com/us-prototype-pcbs-4-pack-p-602.html http://www.pentalogix.com/us-prototype-pcbs-4-pack-p-602.htm... There are Chinese ones as well that ship to you within a week.
Involute 12y ago
They conveniently omit how they do the plated-through holes.
- unwind 12y ago
  Sure, if by "omit" you mean "cover in their FAQ" which says: The most common and by far the least expensive is soldering a thin wire (or some TTH component's lead) between layers. Depending on the number of vias on your board it can be as entertaining as watching grass grow, but quite often it's the fastest way to get them done. Another possibility is to press copper rivets (sometimes called eyelets). Rivets can be pressed sufficiently flat, thus allowing to put them under ICs (which is impossible with soldering approach). Though they need more space (i.e. outside diameter of the via needs to be larger) and tend to be less reliable. There are other possibilities, including the actual electroplating process, but these tend to be fairly sophisticated and expensive. The FAQ is at http://cirqoid.com/pages/faq http://cirqoid.com/pages/faq, and of course linked in the tabs across the top of the page. Not very well hidden.

62 points by lelf 12y ago

Rapid prototyping circuit boards is still relatively expensive and limited compared to the options for purely physical objects. I don't believe we will unlock the value of 3D printers until banging out circuit boards is as quick and easy.

doctoboggan 12y ago
I just launched a company and our first product is exactly what you described: http://www.voxel8.co http://www.voxel8.co We don't have the resolution to get what most board houses can do, but we can reliably hit pitches (pin to pin spacing) of 800 microns. This allows us to build fully embedded fully 3d circuits using many of the surface mount chips on the market today. As we make our machine more accurate we will eventually be able to hit 500 micron pitch and then we will be able to integrate BGA packages. We'll be there soon!
- coryrc 12y ago
  Your website has SSL errors
  - doctoboggan 12y ago
    Whoops, I did not mean to link to the HTTPS version. We had that set up previously but when we switched to Squarespace we could no longer use SSL. However my browser still autofills in the HTTPS version. I've updated the link.
- krschultz 12y ago
  Excellent!

Animats 12y ago

Now that is very nice. It does board milling, pick-and-place, and solder paste. It's the latter two operations that matter. ("In this world, you do not make your own PC boards." - The Art of Electronics. Board houses do it better using photo-etching, are cheaper, give you plated through holes, and have fast turnaround.) Here's a nice hobbyist pick-and-place machine: http://briandorey.com/post/DIY-Pick-and-Place-V2-Project-Complete.aspx http://briandorey.com/post/DIY-Pick-and-Place-V2-Project-Com... This one has a vision system to get precision alignment. In the era of the $10 cell phone camera module, there's no reason to have one without a vision system. You design some fiducial marks on the board, and the vision system goes looking for them to get precision alignment. This makes up for small errors in the board position. When putting down a part, the vision system matches up the expected pattern of pads with what it sees and fine-tunes the position. This is easier than trying to hold everything so rigid that blind placement works. A vision system also lets you check that you picked up a part properly from the feeder, and that it's in place properly after placement. Your little assembly line is then a pick and place machine, a solder-paste dispensing machine, and a reflow oven, which can be a toaster oven with precision temperature controls. There are many small shops in Shenzhen like that.

hga 12y ago
Or Joplin, Missouri, USA in the early '80s when my family was making C band LNBs for the home satellite reception market prior to today's K band Direct TV and Dish Network. It's really not that difficult; I'm not sure they even had a pick and place machine when they got started, the LNBs didn't have all that many components.
- HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
  Pretty different paradigm though. In the early 80's P&P machines cost a few arms and a firstborn and probably were automated with paper tape! Your family was almost certainly not using surface mount. Or at least, only for a handful of RF components. The outfit I worked for after leaving college in the late 80's shipped hundreds of boards a month doing everything manually. By the time they folded, the only change was sending them out for wave soldering. These days I can outperform them with a solder paste stencil and a toaster oven. Blows my mind.

dmritard96 12y ago

This is a popular space right now: Voltera: http://volterainc.com/ http://volterainc.com/ Voxel8 Tempo Automation: http://tempoautomation.com/ http://tempoautomation.com/ People are realizing that iterating on electronics is painful hence trying to fix it. The interesting part is the market size, unit costs etc. Also ability to do very small pitch ICs. We got so desperate with pick and place that we literally 3D printed a 3D printer adapter combined with our vacuum pump and Pronterface. https://twitter.com/flairvents https://twitter.com/flairvents

newhouseb 12y ago
Woah, nice work with the UM2 pick and place! Do you have any write-ups, resources or even just a BOM?
- dmritard96 12y ago
  Sure, I put the design up on thingiverse: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:528114 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:528114 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GWGUR6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GWGUR6/ref=oh_aui_detai... Pronterface: https://github.com/kliment/Printrun https://github.com/kliment/Printrun It should be noted that we only used this for the tiny pitch QFNs and other small components that we couldn't do by hand, the easier components we did with tweezers. Once we validated the design with a couple boards, we just had a bunch more assembled over in Freemont CA.
  - durkie 12y ago
    thanks for this! that amazon link is for a 50 pack -- is there any reason someone would need more than one? i've just been using tweezers up till now. any chance you have a video of it in action?
    - dmritard96 12y ago
      not sure whats up with the 50 pack, but I see that on image as well. I'm pretty sure its just one. Didn't take a video - wish i had.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

noonespecial 12y ago

One thing I've learned from using standard CNC mills to do this sort of thing over the years is that the V bit has to be brutally sharp to avoid tearing up the fine traces as it cuts. A high quality cutting bit makes the difference. Also be careful of the dust. Especially from the fiberglass substrates. Its nasty stuff.

CamperBob2 12y ago
Yeah, a vacuum attachment seems like a good optional add-on for this system.

CamperBob2 12y ago

Very cool. Add a camera to do pick-and-place alignment automatically, and I'll take one. P&P is pointless with that much manual intervention. Another obvious improvement: offer a hot air nozzle tool, with a preheater in the base. It would be really neat to go from bare copper to an assembled PCB without moving the board. Oh, and an automatic tool changer. :)

pkaye 12y ago

Can it do 4 layer PCBs? Probably the most important thing missing.

jimmyswimmy 12y ago

Not to be negative, but I am simply not impressed. I thought milling PCBs was over about 15 years ago when pcbexpress and the like of plot and go quick turn services came to the market. There is just no reason to mill your own boards anymore (and -ugh- manually fill your own vias) with services around like dirtypcb. If you truly need a quick turnaround, pcbexpress can get you a slightly higher quality board tomorrow for less than $200. That's around 1/15th the cost of this device, and a better product (i.e. less likely to cause a problem which will waste a ton of your time) The pick-n-place aspect is somewhat interesting, but HaD had a project for a $300 pnp machine; I expect to see something like it on kickstartr soon.

snarfy 12y ago
But I only need two boards. My next project needs one board. And the one after that one board. I could get some etchant and start cooking, or I can use a mill for my one-off projects.
- bravo22 12y ago
  What about vias? If your board is that simple then just use a breadboard. Also you can get one off simple 2 layer boards for $25.
  - snarfy 12y ago
    > Also you can get one off simple 2 layer boards for $25. Where? I haven't really looked into outsourcing it. I assume like most things it's a hefty cost for the first one due to setup and tooling, and the rest are dirt cheap. I'm a hobbyist so a mill like that is interesting, but as a hobbyist I'm not really aware of all the options. It seems much better than messing with etchant. The designs that use SMD components aren't going to work with breadboard. No vias as they are single layer.
    - bravo22 12y ago
      Cheap 2-4 layer PCBs in US: http://www.pentalogix.com/us-prototype-pcbs-4-pack-p-602.html http://www.pentalogix.com/us-prototype-pcbs-4-pack-p-602.htm... There are Chinese ones as well that ship to you within a week.

Involute 12y ago

They conveniently omit how they do the plated-through holes.

unwind 12y ago
Sure, if by "omit" you mean "cover in their FAQ" which says: The most common and by far the least expensive is soldering a thin wire (or some TTH component's lead) between layers. Depending on the number of vias on your board it can be as entertaining as watching grass grow, but quite often it's the fastest way to get them done. Another possibility is to press copper rivets (sometimes called eyelets). Rivets can be pressed sufficiently flat, thus allowing to put them under ICs (which is impossible with soldering approach). Though they need more space (i.e. outside diameter of the via needs to be larger) and tend to be less reliable. There are other possibilities, including the actual electroplating process, but these tend to be fairly sophisticated and expensive. The FAQ is at http://cirqoid.com/pages/faq http://cirqoid.com/pages/faq, and of course linked in the tabs across the top of the page. Not very well hidden.