6 ms·

I have never heard of a professor "forgoing their own salary" to keep the lights on. I'd be surprised if this was allowed, actually. Also, for what it's worth

I have never heard of a professor "forgoing their own salary" to keep the lights on. I'd be surprised if this was allowed, actually. Also, for what it's worth, I did a PhD and a post-doc and have a nice biotech job that pays well. It's not an easy road (what is?) but it's not as bleak as all-that, if you enjoy doing science.

timr 12y ago
The whole piece is about how your earning potential rises when you leave academia, so pointing out that your income rose when you left academia isn't really a rebuttal. How much income did you forego during your PhD and post-doc, and how much would you have foregone if you'd stayed?
- roadnottaken 12y ago
  I made approximately $30k as a grad student (5 yrs) and ~$50k as a post-doc (2.5 yrs). I probably could've made more in a different industry, but it was plenty to live on at the time. It would've been a different story if I'd had kids sooner... anyway, I didn't go into science for the money, I went into it because I like science. I don't disagree with many of the conclusions in the original post, I just wanted to add my anecdotal experience which has been relatively happy and sufficiently-compensated.
  - timr 12y ago
    You may have been satisfied by what you were making, but that doesn't mean that you were making as much as you could have. I mean, people renounce their belongings and live in ashrams for spiritual reasons, and they're OK with it. But let's not pretend they aren't making a trade-off.
    - roadnottaken 12y ago
      I wasn't trying to pretend. As I said, I went into science because I like science. If I wanted to get paid as much as possible I would've done something else.
squidfood 12y ago
Sure it is allowed. You can apply for grants for your lab, and not include funds for yourself, and if your own salary is soft-funded, you might have to go "on leave" or the like while your lab gets the money. That said, I've never seen anyone do it for more than a month's gap, and very rarely.
- hga 12y ago
  I can't track down the source of the quote (thought it was Noland Bushnell), but "You aren't an entrepreneur until you've made a payroll out of your own pocket". Interesting, but not surprising, to know that scientists are known to have done this.
  - Fomite 12y ago
    The problem being that they don't get an equity stake in anything in return. There's no upside potential.
    - hga 12y ago
      The upside is continuity of operations. The ability of your lab to continue doing work is no small thing. Also, I'm pretty sure it's assumed that's structured as a loan.
      - Fomite 12y ago
        I meant a financial upside, in contrast to entrepreneurs. And it's definitely not structured as a loan. You forego your summer salary, its gone. All you've done is chosen not to pay yourself.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
adamdoupe 12y ago
Most professor salaries are on 9-month appointments, for the academic year. The three summer months usually come from grants, teaching summer sessions, or consulting. However, a professor can choose to spend the grant money on student support rather than summer salary (thus forgoing their own salary), which is what I assume the author is referring to.
bduerst 12y ago
> I did a PhD and a post-doc and have a nice biotech job that pays well Which works if your field of study is an applied science. I think that for many in the pure fields there is this sort of romanticized "career in science" that can cloud expectations. As with Margaret in this story, though, they eventually figure it out.
regehr 12y ago
I routinely forego summer salary in order to make sure the students are fed. This works because I receive a perfectly adequate 9-month salary from the state (and also my household has two incomes).
- mjt0229 12y ago
  This is my family's situation as well. My wife has a 9-month salary for her tenure-track position at a state university. Her startup package hardly covered anything. The university has virtually no money to give out in small grants to help along until she gets an extramural grant from the NIH or the NSF, but the kind of research you can do at a small state university that's focused on teaching is not sexy enough to garner big money from most extramural granting agencies. As a result, she's applying for grants at the moment to pay a few students a paltry sum to stay and work in her lab over the summer. She will work for free. Any students who can't cover their own room and board on their own probably couldn't afford to stay and work; they need to spend 30 or 40 hours a week in the lab, which pretty much excludes other sources of income. My wife makes the point that it's unfair that poor students can't afford the experience to work in a lab as an undergraduate, even if it will benefit their careers in the long term.
  - zaroth 12y ago
    > The university has money to give out... The kind of research you can do...is not sexy enough. Capitalism is like this, but I don't see why in this day and age there isn't sexy research that you could do just about anywhere. Research -> Patents -> Profit. Just like in most startups, if the revenue model is nothing to sell and just hope VCs keep you flush, it's not going to work out in most cases. It sounds like the research simply isn't profitable so the lab fails. That is the definition of capitalism, and the same reason most startups fail. We need to make good research easier to monetize and more profitable, not figure more ways to hand out grants. At least that's the Economic argument.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
therzathegza 12y ago
I believe the official term in grant funded kinds of places is "no cost extension" of the project.
- Fomite 12y ago
  This can also be used for "We haven't spent out all the money yet but the funding period is coming to an end."
DaveWalk 12y ago
>It's not an easy road (what is?) I think we could work on the road, actually. For as long as a PhD is, there are ways to make it less of a slog, I believe. Early career development and more relevant classes come to mind from my institution. Also, if a postdoc is truly required these days, maybe we can shorten PhD length to 3 or 4 years? Cutting down the opportunity cost of time has nothing (directly) to do with salary...but it would have profound changes on the culture, I believe.
pvaldes 12y ago
> I have never heard of a professor "forgoing their own salary" to keep the lights on. I'd be surprised if this was allowed, actually. This is because when you say Science you are of course thinking "USA Science". This is pretty common in other countries. I spend 6 entire years "collaborating" with my University waiting for my opportunity. No salary, no social benefits, no contract and all day. It was take this or take the exit and bye bye!, we have a lot of other candidates, ha ha. This was my election. I don't blame on it. But the worst was when (after spending all day picking-up things from the inner guts of a deeply rooten 500 Kg carcass of a dolphin) someone tells me: "you should be happy, all your wishes granted, this is what you wanted!" Yeah, to bath myself in shit, rancid fat, guts and breath formaldehyde all day is the best thing in the universe...

timr 12y ago

The whole piece is about how your earning potential rises when you leave academia, so pointing out that your income rose when you left academia isn't really a rebuttal. How much income did you forego during your PhD and post-doc, and how much would you have foregone if you'd stayed?

roadnottaken 12y ago
I made approximately $30k as a grad student (5 yrs) and ~$50k as a post-doc (2.5 yrs). I probably could've made more in a different industry, but it was plenty to live on at the time. It would've been a different story if I'd had kids sooner... anyway, I didn't go into science for the money, I went into it because I like science. I don't disagree with many of the conclusions in the original post, I just wanted to add my anecdotal experience which has been relatively happy and sufficiently-compensated.
- timr 12y ago
  You may have been satisfied by what you were making, but that doesn't mean that you were making as much as you could have. I mean, people renounce their belongings and live in ashrams for spiritual reasons, and they're OK with it. But let's not pretend they aren't making a trade-off.
  - roadnottaken 12y ago
    I wasn't trying to pretend. As I said, I went into science because I like science. If I wanted to get paid as much as possible I would've done something else.

squidfood 12y ago

Sure it is allowed. You can apply for grants for your lab, and not include funds for yourself, and if your own salary is soft-funded, you might have to go "on leave" or the like while your lab gets the money. That said, I've never seen anyone do it for more than a month's gap, and very rarely.

hga 12y ago
I can't track down the source of the quote (thought it was Noland Bushnell), but "You aren't an entrepreneur until you've made a payroll out of your own pocket". Interesting, but not surprising, to know that scientists are known to have done this.
- Fomite 12y ago
  The problem being that they don't get an equity stake in anything in return. There's no upside potential.
  - hga 12y ago
    The upside is continuity of operations. The ability of your lab to continue doing work is no small thing. Also, I'm pretty sure it's assumed that's structured as a loan.
    - Fomite 12y ago
      I meant a financial upside, in contrast to entrepreneurs. And it's definitely not structured as a loan. You forego your summer salary, its gone. All you've done is chosen not to pay yourself.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

adamdoupe 12y ago

Most professor salaries are on 9-month appointments, for the academic year. The three summer months usually come from grants, teaching summer sessions, or consulting. However, a professor can choose to spend the grant money on student support rather than summer salary (thus forgoing their own salary), which is what I assume the author is referring to.

bduerst 12y ago

> I did a PhD and a post-doc and have a nice biotech job that pays well Which works if your field of study is an applied science. I think that for many in the pure fields there is this sort of romanticized "career in science" that can cloud expectations. As with Margaret in this story, though, they eventually figure it out.

regehr 12y ago

I routinely forego summer salary in order to make sure the students are fed. This works because I receive a perfectly adequate 9-month salary from the state (and also my household has two incomes).

mjt0229 12y ago
This is my family's situation as well. My wife has a 9-month salary for her tenure-track position at a state university. Her startup package hardly covered anything. The university has virtually no money to give out in small grants to help along until she gets an extramural grant from the NIH or the NSF, but the kind of research you can do at a small state university that's focused on teaching is not sexy enough to garner big money from most extramural granting agencies. As a result, she's applying for grants at the moment to pay a few students a paltry sum to stay and work in her lab over the summer. She will work for free. Any students who can't cover their own room and board on their own probably couldn't afford to stay and work; they need to spend 30 or 40 hours a week in the lab, which pretty much excludes other sources of income. My wife makes the point that it's unfair that poor students can't afford the experience to work in a lab as an undergraduate, even if it will benefit their careers in the long term.
- zaroth 12y ago
  > The university has money to give out... The kind of research you can do...is not sexy enough. Capitalism is like this, but I don't see why in this day and age there isn't sexy research that you could do just about anywhere. Research -> Patents -> Profit. Just like in most startups, if the revenue model is nothing to sell and just hope VCs keep you flush, it's not going to work out in most cases. It sounds like the research simply isn't profitable so the lab fails. That is the definition of capitalism, and the same reason most startups fail. We need to make good research easier to monetize and more profitable, not figure more ways to hand out grants. At least that's the Economic argument.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

therzathegza 12y ago

I believe the official term in grant funded kinds of places is "no cost extension" of the project.

Fomite 12y ago
This can also be used for "We haven't spent out all the money yet but the funding period is coming to an end."

DaveWalk 12y ago

>It's not an easy road (what is?) I think we could work on the road, actually. For as long as a PhD is, there are ways to make it less of a slog, I believe. Early career development and more relevant classes come to mind from my institution. Also, if a postdoc is truly required these days, maybe we can shorten PhD length to 3 or 4 years? Cutting down the opportunity cost of time has nothing (directly) to do with salary...but it would have profound changes on the culture, I believe.

pvaldes 12y ago

> I have never heard of a professor "forgoing their own salary" to keep the lights on. I'd be surprised if this was allowed, actually. This is because when you say Science you are of course thinking "USA Science". This is pretty common in other countries. I spend 6 entire years "collaborating" with my University waiting for my opportunity. No salary, no social benefits, no contract and all day. It was take this or take the exit and bye bye!, we have a lot of other candidates, ha ha. This was my election. I don't blame on it. But the worst was when (after spending all day picking-up things from the inner guts of a deeply rooten 500 Kg carcass of a dolphin) someone tells me: "you should be happy, all your wishes granted, this is what you wanted!" Yeah, to bath myself in shit, rancid fat, guts and breath formaldehyde all day is the best thing in the universe...