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The Future of Meat Is Plant-Based Burgers

113 points by zbravo 12y ago

gdubs 12y ago
I grew up hearing that a chicken nugget was filled with a lot of stuff you wouldn't expect it to be filled with. After seeing the 'pink slime' video, I often wonder why fast food chains wouldn't just use plant-based alternatives. Surely growing plants is cheaper than raising livestock. And if it's not, than it's at an enormous moral cost in how we treat our livestock. At minimum, it's _crazy_ to me that McDonald's does not have a veggie burger on the menu. Why?
- es09 12y ago
  McDonald's does have a veggie burger on their menu in most parts of Europe. Could it just be a matter of we-give-what-people-want here?
- kmnc 12y ago
  I would guess because the veggie burger market is basically nothing and McDonald's does not want the conversation to become "Is McDonald's going healthy?" before they are 100% invested into those new marketing avenues. The reality is the whole "fast food chains going healthy" hype has died down almost completely and those succeeding in fast food now are the gourmet fast food shops that focus on delivering quality food (but definitely not healthy). IMO McDonalds have excelled when it comes to Coffee and marketing the McCafe brand and I don't doubt they could do the same thing with "healthy food choices" I just think the hype around healthy fast food has died for now and McDonalds is not willing to push it until the public demands it again.
  - scrollaway 12y ago
    Veggie Burgers are an option at virtually every fast food (including mcdonalds) here in europe -- or at least in France, the UK, Germany, Sweden and Spain; I don't know about any other country.
    - vram22 12y ago
      Also common in India.
  - slipjack 12y ago
    Even if there's no big market for fast food veggie burgers, Burger King sells a pretty decent one. Not always on the menu, but I've found them even in rural Alabama.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Kalium 12y ago
  Plant-based alternatives rarely taste the same, feel the same, or sell the same. All critical things.
  - VLM 12y ago
    "rarely taste the same, feel the same" That part is OK. I'd be really annoyed if my beef tasted like chicken or vice versa. The problem is finding something quick and cheap that you can slap into a bun in seconds and sell for a couple bucks that tastes good. I don't care if it "kinda sorta tastes like beef sorta" but I want it to taste good. The closest I can think of for vegetarian sandwich off the shelf would be some veggie subs I've eaten at fast food sandwich stores and the closest I can think of in theory would be some kind of marinated veggie kabob turned into a sandwich. The labor costs would be killer. In an alternative direction, I like spinach tamales but I have no idea how to "sandwich-ify it" I want to eat tofu that kinda pretends to be beef about as much as vegetarians want to eat thinly sliced pork ears that pretend to be lettuce. Make it taste good, not taste like a clone.
- csixty4 12y ago
  Burger King has a burger with a Morningstar patty on the menu. It's pretty good. That & a side of onion rings used to be a monthly treat for me. Not sure how well it sells, but I'm sure McDonald's is aware of it & how (un)successful it's been.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- tracker1 12y ago
  Agreed, I think that it would be easier to adapt other animal protein sources than adapting veggie proteins to meat.
  - kenrikm 12y ago
    I've heard meal worms thrown around as having potential as a protein base, however I think the thought of plant based burgers much easier to stomach (pun!)
- bluedino 12y ago
  >> I am curious if we could just grow meat in a lab environment. The man who has bankrolled the production of the world's first lab-grown hamburger has been revealed as Google co-founder Sergey Brin. The internet entrepreneur has backed the project to the tune of €250,000 (£215,000), allowing scientists to grow enough meat in the lab to create a burger – as a proof of concept – that will be cooked and eaten in London on Monday. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/05/google-sergey-brin-synthetic-beef-hamburger http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/05/google-sergey...
- feld 12y ago
  You didn't read very closely then. "When I told Geistlinger that I was skeptical of processed foods, especially ones produced by novel techniques, he pointed out that Beyond Meat uses no artificial ingredients and employs the most time-tested of cooking methods (heat and pressure)."
  - virmundi 12y ago
    I saw that. But it's not that much information. Are they heating externally? Are the heating via chemical processes? If chemical, what and how?
    - 12y ago
tracker1 12y ago
I had the worst burger I've ever had about a month ago... It was a delivery place via grubhub and was only up a couple of weeks... I'm fairly certain it was at least part vegetable protein, and was horrible. "Garden Burgers" are way better than what this was. I don't know if it was genuine or a sad experiment... beef wasn't actually mentioned anywhere so I don't know. The texture was weird and the taste was way off. --- edit: Wow, voted down because I had a bad veggie burger experience? For the record, here it is.. https://www.grubhub.com/phoenix/chef-efes-burgers/ https://www.grubhub.com/phoenix/chef-efes-burgers/
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  You probably got downvoted because "I once had a yucky burger" really isn't all that relevant to the discussion.
  - tracker1 12y ago
    I'm pretty sure it was a TVP meatloaf/burger... that it was veggie and the worst I'd ever had, thought it may be relevant... or at least a comment on taste. I know that they can be better, but sometimes people will attribute better taste to something by its' nature, not that it actually tastes better.
    - rosser 12y ago
      Nope, still not relevant. I'm a vegetarian, quite a fan of Beyond Meat's "chicken" strips, and very much looking forward to trying a Beast Burger. I've had some shit veggie burgers, too, but if Beyond Meat can do with "beef" anything like what they've done with "chicken", this won't be among them.
      - intopieces 12y ago
        How do you prepare the Beyond Meat Chicken Strips? I've tried them a few times and (as I mentioned above in another comment) the flavor seemed too strong, like they were trying to cover something up. I've been veg for a while so I'm always looking out for new alternatives, and this company intrigues me.
akurilin 12y ago
What kind of impact would fully switching to this kind of meat would have on hypertrophy?
- wdewind 12y ago
  In theory minimal on the positive side. The only thing you'd care about is the amino acid profile of the proteins, which they are claiming is better than meat: > “What’s exciting to me is that we now have a completely different set of proteins that we can tune,” says Geistlinger. “We’re looking at yeasts and algae, which both have amino acid profiles that are superior to beef. We made something that used yeast from the brewery across the street. It came out like bratwurst!”
- WalterSear 12y ago
  There's evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, by providing more of the precursors. There's actual proof that it can make no difference either way in terms of protein quality.
  - brerlapn 12y ago
    The statement "there's evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, by providing more of the precursors" could use one, or better, two, supporting citations: one, to the evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, and two, to the evidence that consumption of precursors is sufficient to cause increases of the desired substance (and particularly in the case of testosterone). I'm aware of at least some dispute about the effectiveness of increasing consumption of precursors. I don't have any emotional attachment to eating meat, and have eaten raw vegan and vegetarian diets before (and found most vegetarian dishes to be tastier than meat-based ones). One of the reasons I don't go in for any special diets anymore is that the health assertions in support of them often end up falling short of supporting evidence.
murbard2 12y ago
The part about E.Coli in burger reminds me of a very unfortunate state of affair. I like my burgers rare, they just taste much better this way. I eat them that way because at my age (32) the risk isn't too great. There is a way to make ground beef extremely safe for consumption, without cooking it to oblivion (a.k.a FDA guidelines). That technique is irradiation. Unfortunately, people are very squeamish about the idea of having their meat irradiated, and mandatory labeling laws mean that it's very hard to find irradiated meat. As a result, people get into the habit of eating overcooked burgers, which further reduces the potential demand for irradiated meat, etc. Shame :(
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  They sell irradiated ground beef at Wegmans and it's wonderful to be able to cook it medium rare.
- SoftwareMaven 12y ago
  Find a local farmer whose meat handling you trust to reduce the likelihood of contamination. Otherwise, get a steak, wipe it with an ammonia solution, rinse it, and grind it up yourself. The E.Coli, if it exists, is going to be on the outside of the steak; the ammonia wash will kill the vast majority of it, and you get the benefit of fresher hamburger. Alternatively, freeze your steak by dipping it in liquid nitrogen. A normal freezer isn't sufficient to kill E.Coli, but a liquid nitrogen dip will do the job. :)
  - jules 12y ago
    Amonia has a very strong & bad smell though? Even if you wash off 99.9% it will still smell bad.
- droopyEyelids 12y ago
  The push against irradiated beef happens because it'd allow most common levels of food handling mishaps to be sold safely without getting people sick, and as the article states, most meat is already contaminated with feces. So many corners could be cut without causing problems, but standard irradiation can't kill prions. (They don't have DNA to irradiate.) So theoretically you reduce the quality of food, increase the profit for the meat packing industry, reduce the frequency of food borne illness, but increase the damage when it does happen. Irradiation really isn't a cut and dried benefit.
Retric 12y ago
Rather than focus on 100% plant based burgers I think we could go a long way by replacing say 10% of the meat with plants and working your way up. The goal being a small enough change that you don't notice a difference.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  You can change a nation's diet abruptly too. Young folks buy and eat whatever is convenient and cheap. They don't care that its different; they know no different.
  - tracker1 12y ago
    I was going to mention that Taco Bell already does this...
    - blakestein 12y ago
      It's been awhile but their alleged fillers probably make it healthier than it would be otherwise. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/taco-bell-beef-lawsuit_n_813185.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/taco-bell-beef-laws...
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        My Mom's meatloaf also has other ingredients than beef. It's called 'cooking'.
leovander 12y ago
My girlfriend is vegetarian and she swears by Quorn. She had me convinced when I tried their [Quorn Roast](http://www.quorn.us/products/44/turky-roast http://www.quorn.us/products/44/turky-roast). I wouldn't say its on par with real meat texture, but hell of a lot better than other veggie products.
- blakestein 12y ago
  I've had a couple Chik'n products and the beef crumble from Quorn and so far it's been the best substitute as far as flavor/texture combination. Making spaghetti with meat sauce was actually a little hard to tell the difference. I think the only turn off is that it barely seems to be made out of food.
  - jules 12y ago
    Quorn tastes pretty good, though in my opinion it's over flavored and it doesn't taste like meat and doesn't have the texture of meat either. I'm sure most people would be able to taste the difference in a spaghetti bolognese. The thing is though, it doesn't have to be like meat, it just needs to taste good and have good texture.
- WalterSear 12y ago
  I've never understood why that wasn't vegan. It looks like they pretty much divorced themselves from what would otherwise be their core consumers.
pietro 12y ago
Why not just skip burgers? There's no way this can be healthier or more delicious than fresh vegetables.
- meepmorp 12y ago
  Food has social and emotional components for most people. What's wrong with providing a different option in a format with which people are already familiar and comfortable?
- jemfinch 12y ago
  Sorry, did you just claim that "there's no way" anyone could find a burger "more delicious" than fresh vegetables? Were you smirking when you wrote that? Is this some hard to detect form of sarcasm?
  - JoelHobson 12y ago
    I think what they said was that there's no way a burger that was made of vegetables could taste better than fresh vegetables.
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      That's still a pretty ridiculous claim. That every plant we grow is in some perfect state where processing can't improve it. Especially when you consider how many are weird artificially bred mutants so any evolutionary argument is instantly invalid.
- anon4 12y ago
  As far as I know, people can't synthesise the needed amino-acids just from plants, but can from this products. So it is more healthy.
  - Symmetry 12y ago
    Being vegan makes it a bit of a challenge to get enough of the right sort of vitamins but it certainly is possible. And if you're willing to consume dairy it's actually pretty easy. You can't quite survive on milk and potatoes alone but it's close.
jemfinch 12y ago
Reading this article made me think of Terry Bisson's "They're Made Out of Meat", particularly apropos the conversation earlier today about the Fermi Paradox. http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html
ars 12y ago
I tried the product mentioned here "Beyond Meat". The texture was perfect. The taste was terrible - worse even than vegetarian meat alternatives (that don't have the right texture, but at least taste good). I only tried it once. I see they have some new products now, maybe I'll try those.
- blakestein 12y ago
  I've had Beyond Meat chicken. The texture is close but not nearly as close as the article makes it out to be. Some of the flavors are good up front, but sometimes it tastes like something close to playdough.
- intopieces 12y ago
  The chicken strips, right? They seem to be over-flavored, almost like a chicken lollypop. Maybe I just need to learn to cook it better.
discardorama 12y ago
As a vegetarian, I'm looking forward to more products from Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods. One of the criticisms people have is: it doesn't taste like real meat. To that, I'll say: tastes change. Sure, you (presumably of European descent) and your ancestors have been eating meat for 1000 years; but look at the spread of Indian/Chinese/Mexican places; your ancestors never had those foods! Heck, "chicken tikka" was voted as the 'national dish' of Britain, when a 100 years ago hardly anyone had heard of it! More people would be vegetarian if restaurants had it as a decent option. Hopefully, these new products will encourage restaurants to expand their veggie menus.
- jules 12y ago
  Restaurants have very little to do with it. Most of the time people eat at home, and they eat meat there too.
- scrollaway 12y ago
  I'm not sure what kind of strawman you are using as an argument here. People complain it doesn't taste like meat because they like the taste of meat, and your answer for those people is saying that since some people like some things they never tasted before, that specific food will grow on them? How did you get from A to B? (Edit: And obviously I have nothing against vegetarianism. I just don't like your argument here...) Edit 2: Really with downvotes now? This logic is acceptable to you?
  - WalterSear 12y ago
    Tastes are very malleable. Among people who have gone without meat products for a while, who then taste meat products, either accidentally or on purpose, it is common to be disgusted by the taste, and find it in no way resembles the one they remember. I've had the same phenomenon related to me by people who radically alter their diet in other ways, such as body builders. So, ultimately, clinging to meat 'because you prefer the taste' is more about avoiding temporary discomfort, rather than permanent dissatisfaction. Though, of course, it doesn't appear that way until after the fact.
cwbrandsma 12y ago
Where I live, range cattle are everywhere. You go to the mountains and desert, just everywhere. Actually, we could raise a lot more here. What we can't raise easily is crops. There is too much rock in the ground, you can't plow without dynamite. Plus there is little water (that desert part). Pretty much every field with crops is irrigated -- constantly. Yet, somehow, cows and sheep do just fine. Sometimes you have to bring in water, but that is NOTHING compared to what it takes to grow crops here. I will also add one other item to the mix...don't call it burger. I will eat a vegetarian meal, it does not bother me at all. Just don't call it chicken or beef. In fact, don't try to be those things, just make good food without meat and I will eat it. But if you tell me it is beaf and it isn't, I WILL notice, and I won't be happy.
- puredemo 12y ago
  >But if you tell me it is beaf and it isn't, I WILL notice, and I won't be happy. Seconding that. Also, I'm allergic to legumes but not real beef. So you could be putting me in danger by calling a legume patty a "burger" or "beaf".
  - somedudethere 12y ago
    Isn't "Beaf" supposed to be mash upbetween "Beef" and "Leaf" so you shouldn't expect "Beaf" to be "beef" But a burger can be anything. Chicken burger, hamburger, pork burger, etc. So I wouldn't have a problem having a vegetarian burger. Since "burger" describes the delivery mechanism and not the contents. But I do have a problem with things like "Chikin", "Beaf" and the like. Not because they are misleading, but because it is tacky. Just don't try to imitate real meat or at the very least make up a better description of the contents. "Legume burger" vs "Beaf burger". The deliberate misspellings of real food just make it "mystery meat". I've been looking at "veggie patties" on menus for years and still don't even know what the primary ingredient is. And that makes it harder for people to "trust". People seem to blindly eat these patties and what not but it just seems really weird to me that you are eating unidentified goop of vegetables that they are trying to pass off as meat. I guess you could spend time looking it up, but eh. We already have a problem where the majority of kids can't even connect that a chicken nugget comes out of a chicken. Calling it a "Legume burger" will seem kind of alien but in a few years it would help make the word "Legume" mainstream and familiar and everyone would be better off. I want to easily identify what is in my food if we switch off of meat.
sunshinerag 12y ago
Shouldn't he be just looking for grass fed healthy meat instead instead of switching to plant sources?
patrickg_zill 12y ago
No, the future of meat is... more meat. Really, the Saul Alinsky-style, revolution talk and identity politics are simply not needed when you are making an alternative to a product.
jasonisalive 12y ago
It's a shame to see the conversation here bypassing the real issue, which isn't taste, technological wow-factor, production efficiency, environmentalism, or entrepreneur chic. The real issue is animal welfare. Remember, every time you eat meat, you are actually eating the body of a former living creature, equipped with eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, and a complex nervous system capable of integrating its sensations, of feeling pain, fear, and depression. Rememeber, you have no way of guaranteeing (and in fact can actually be almost always certain) that this animal's life wasn't short, miserable, and didn't culminate with an utterly barbaric episode of fear and torture - and then rapid, mechanical dissembly into anonymous pieces, shipped off to your local supermarket or burger shop, its brutal, dirty provenance hidden by a facde of bright and happy advertising. Remember, every time you eat eggs, eat dairy or buy leather, you are participating and endorsing the same thing: industrial scale mistreatment and torture of animals. Watch the video linked in the article (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0) and remember, if you live in the US, the USDA is a captured regulator, completely toothless to prevent animal torture in slaughterhouses - in fact it simply assists in declaring whatever practices the food industry wants to use as humane. Remember, the majority of states are busy passing laws to make it illegal to film undercover videos in CAFOs and abattoirs, so no one can see what is actually going on (because if people did really see it and really understood they would be disgusted to their core.) If you live in any other country in the world, the situation is either much worse, or a little, but not much, better. If you believe that humans should live compassionately and avoid inflicting unnecessary suffering on other feeling, emotional creatures, then go vegan. Not vegetarian, vegan. Don't wait - do it today, not tomorrow. It's the only way that a person can look themselves in the mirror and be truly proud of what they see.
- Perceptes 12y ago
  This is one of the best comments I've read on HN. While I strongly agree with you, it's important to remember that even in what seem like brain-dead obvious cases, morality won't always be enough of a motivator to change people. What makes research and development like this important and exciting to me is that I believe it's the only way the world will ever really change on this issue. Convincing the entirety of the world that animal welfare is reason enough to go vegan is simply not going to happen. In the end, not eating meat needs to be 1) equal to or more satisfying than eating meat 2) equal or cheaper in cost 3) equal or more convenient.

113 points by zbravo 12y ago

gdubs 12y ago

I grew up hearing that a chicken nugget was filled with a lot of stuff you wouldn't expect it to be filled with. After seeing the 'pink slime' video, I often wonder why fast food chains wouldn't just use plant-based alternatives. Surely growing plants is cheaper than raising livestock. And if it's not, than it's at an enormous moral cost in how we treat our livestock. At minimum, it's _crazy_ to me that McDonald's does not have a veggie burger on the menu. Why?

es09 12y ago
McDonald's does have a veggie burger on their menu in most parts of Europe. Could it just be a matter of we-give-what-people-want here?
kmnc 12y ago
I would guess because the veggie burger market is basically nothing and McDonald's does not want the conversation to become "Is McDonald's going healthy?" before they are 100% invested into those new marketing avenues. The reality is the whole "fast food chains going healthy" hype has died down almost completely and those succeeding in fast food now are the gourmet fast food shops that focus on delivering quality food (but definitely not healthy). IMO McDonalds have excelled when it comes to Coffee and marketing the McCafe brand and I don't doubt they could do the same thing with "healthy food choices" I just think the hype around healthy fast food has died for now and McDonalds is not willing to push it until the public demands it again.
- scrollaway 12y ago
  Veggie Burgers are an option at virtually every fast food (including mcdonalds) here in europe -- or at least in France, the UK, Germany, Sweden and Spain; I don't know about any other country.
  - vram22 12y ago
    Also common in India.
- slipjack 12y ago
  Even if there's no big market for fast food veggie burgers, Burger King sells a pretty decent one. Not always on the menu, but I've found them even in rural Alabama.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Kalium 12y ago
Plant-based alternatives rarely taste the same, feel the same, or sell the same. All critical things.
- VLM 12y ago
  "rarely taste the same, feel the same" That part is OK. I'd be really annoyed if my beef tasted like chicken or vice versa. The problem is finding something quick and cheap that you can slap into a bun in seconds and sell for a couple bucks that tastes good. I don't care if it "kinda sorta tastes like beef sorta" but I want it to taste good. The closest I can think of for vegetarian sandwich off the shelf would be some veggie subs I've eaten at fast food sandwich stores and the closest I can think of in theory would be some kind of marinated veggie kabob turned into a sandwich. The labor costs would be killer. In an alternative direction, I like spinach tamales but I have no idea how to "sandwich-ify it" I want to eat tofu that kinda pretends to be beef about as much as vegetarians want to eat thinly sliced pork ears that pretend to be lettuce. Make it taste good, not taste like a clone.
csixty4 12y ago
Burger King has a burger with a Morningstar patty on the menu. It's pretty good. That & a side of onion rings used to be a monthly treat for me. Not sure how well it sells, but I'm sure McDonald's is aware of it & how (un)successful it's been.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

tracker1 12y ago
Agreed, I think that it would be easier to adapt other animal protein sources than adapting veggie proteins to meat.
- kenrikm 12y ago
  I've heard meal worms thrown around as having potential as a protein base, however I think the thought of plant based burgers much easier to stomach (pun!)
bluedino 12y ago
>> I am curious if we could just grow meat in a lab environment. The man who has bankrolled the production of the world's first lab-grown hamburger has been revealed as Google co-founder Sergey Brin. The internet entrepreneur has backed the project to the tune of €250,000 (£215,000), allowing scientists to grow enough meat in the lab to create a burger – as a proof of concept – that will be cooked and eaten in London on Monday. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/05/google-sergey-brin-synthetic-beef-hamburger http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/05/google-sergey...
feld 12y ago
You didn't read very closely then. "When I told Geistlinger that I was skeptical of processed foods, especially ones produced by novel techniques, he pointed out that Beyond Meat uses no artificial ingredients and employs the most time-tested of cooking methods (heat and pressure)."
- virmundi 12y ago
  I saw that. But it's not that much information. Are they heating externally? Are the heating via chemical processes? If chemical, what and how?
  - 12y ago

tracker1 12y ago

I had the worst burger I've ever had about a month ago... It was a delivery place via grubhub and was only up a couple of weeks... I'm fairly certain it was at least part vegetable protein, and was horrible. "Garden Burgers" are way better than what this was. I don't know if it was genuine or a sad experiment... beef wasn't actually mentioned anywhere so I don't know. The texture was weird and the taste was way off. --- edit: Wow, voted down because I had a bad veggie burger experience? For the record, here it is.. https://www.grubhub.com/phoenix/chef-efes-burgers/ https://www.grubhub.com/phoenix/chef-efes-burgers/

ceejayoz 12y ago
You probably got downvoted because "I once had a yucky burger" really isn't all that relevant to the discussion.
- tracker1 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure it was a TVP meatloaf/burger... that it was veggie and the worst I'd ever had, thought it may be relevant... or at least a comment on taste. I know that they can be better, but sometimes people will attribute better taste to something by its' nature, not that it actually tastes better.
  - rosser 12y ago
    Nope, still not relevant. I'm a vegetarian, quite a fan of Beyond Meat's "chicken" strips, and very much looking forward to trying a Beast Burger. I've had some shit veggie burgers, too, but if Beyond Meat can do with "beef" anything like what they've done with "chicken", this won't be among them.
    - intopieces 12y ago
      How do you prepare the Beyond Meat Chicken Strips? I've tried them a few times and (as I mentioned above in another comment) the flavor seemed too strong, like they were trying to cover something up. I've been veg for a while so I'm always looking out for new alternatives, and this company intrigues me.

akurilin 12y ago

What kind of impact would fully switching to this kind of meat would have on hypertrophy?

wdewind 12y ago
In theory minimal on the positive side. The only thing you'd care about is the amino acid profile of the proteins, which they are claiming is better than meat: > “What’s exciting to me is that we now have a completely different set of proteins that we can tune,” says Geistlinger. “We’re looking at yeasts and algae, which both have amino acid profiles that are superior to beef. We made something that used yeast from the brewery across the street. It came out like bratwurst!”
WalterSear 12y ago
There's evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, by providing more of the precursors. There's actual proof that it can make no difference either way in terms of protein quality.
- brerlapn 12y ago
  The statement "there's evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, by providing more of the precursors" could use one, or better, two, supporting citations: one, to the evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, and two, to the evidence that consumption of precursors is sufficient to cause increases of the desired substance (and particularly in the case of testosterone). I'm aware of at least some dispute about the effectiveness of increasing consumption of precursors. I don't have any emotional attachment to eating meat, and have eaten raw vegan and vegetarian diets before (and found most vegetarian dishes to be tastier than meat-based ones). One of the reasons I don't go in for any special diets anymore is that the health assertions in support of them often end up falling short of supporting evidence.

murbard2 12y ago

The part about E.Coli in burger reminds me of a very unfortunate state of affair. I like my burgers rare, they just taste much better this way. I eat them that way because at my age (32) the risk isn't too great. There is a way to make ground beef extremely safe for consumption, without cooking it to oblivion (a.k.a FDA guidelines). That technique is irradiation. Unfortunately, people are very squeamish about the idea of having their meat irradiated, and mandatory labeling laws mean that it's very hard to find irradiated meat. As a result, people get into the habit of eating overcooked burgers, which further reduces the potential demand for irradiated meat, etc. Shame :(

ceejayoz 12y ago
They sell irradiated ground beef at Wegmans and it's wonderful to be able to cook it medium rare.
SoftwareMaven 12y ago
Find a local farmer whose meat handling you trust to reduce the likelihood of contamination. Otherwise, get a steak, wipe it with an ammonia solution, rinse it, and grind it up yourself. The E.Coli, if it exists, is going to be on the outside of the steak; the ammonia wash will kill the vast majority of it, and you get the benefit of fresher hamburger. Alternatively, freeze your steak by dipping it in liquid nitrogen. A normal freezer isn't sufficient to kill E.Coli, but a liquid nitrogen dip will do the job. :)
- jules 12y ago
  Amonia has a very strong & bad smell though? Even if you wash off 99.9% it will still smell bad.
droopyEyelids 12y ago
The push against irradiated beef happens because it'd allow most common levels of food handling mishaps to be sold safely without getting people sick, and as the article states, most meat is already contaminated with feces. So many corners could be cut without causing problems, but standard irradiation can't kill prions. (They don't have DNA to irradiate.) So theoretically you reduce the quality of food, increase the profit for the meat packing industry, reduce the frequency of food borne illness, but increase the damage when it does happen. Irradiation really isn't a cut and dried benefit.

Retric 12y ago

Rather than focus on 100% plant based burgers I think we could go a long way by replacing say 10% of the meat with plants and working your way up. The goal being a small enough change that you don't notice a difference.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
You can change a nation's diet abruptly too. Young folks buy and eat whatever is convenient and cheap. They don't care that its different; they know no different.
- tracker1 12y ago
  I was going to mention that Taco Bell already does this...
  - blakestein 12y ago
    It's been awhile but their alleged fillers probably make it healthier than it would be otherwise. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/taco-bell-beef-lawsuit_n_813185.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/taco-bell-beef-laws...
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      My Mom's meatloaf also has other ingredients than beef. It's called 'cooking'.

leovander 12y ago

My girlfriend is vegetarian and she swears by Quorn. She had me convinced when I tried their [Quorn Roast](http://www.quorn.us/products/44/turky-roast http://www.quorn.us/products/44/turky-roast). I wouldn't say its on par with real meat texture, but hell of a lot better than other veggie products.

blakestein 12y ago
I've had a couple Chik'n products and the beef crumble from Quorn and so far it's been the best substitute as far as flavor/texture combination. Making spaghetti with meat sauce was actually a little hard to tell the difference. I think the only turn off is that it barely seems to be made out of food.
- jules 12y ago
  Quorn tastes pretty good, though in my opinion it's over flavored and it doesn't taste like meat and doesn't have the texture of meat either. I'm sure most people would be able to taste the difference in a spaghetti bolognese. The thing is though, it doesn't have to be like meat, it just needs to taste good and have good texture.
WalterSear 12y ago
I've never understood why that wasn't vegan. It looks like they pretty much divorced themselves from what would otherwise be their core consumers.

pietro 12y ago

Why not just skip burgers? There's no way this can be healthier or more delicious than fresh vegetables.

meepmorp 12y ago
Food has social and emotional components for most people. What's wrong with providing a different option in a format with which people are already familiar and comfortable?
jemfinch 12y ago
Sorry, did you just claim that "there's no way" anyone could find a burger "more delicious" than fresh vegetables? Were you smirking when you wrote that? Is this some hard to detect form of sarcasm?
- JoelHobson 12y ago
  I think what they said was that there's no way a burger that was made of vegetables could taste better than fresh vegetables.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    That's still a pretty ridiculous claim. That every plant we grow is in some perfect state where processing can't improve it. Especially when you consider how many are weird artificially bred mutants so any evolutionary argument is instantly invalid.
anon4 12y ago
As far as I know, people can't synthesise the needed amino-acids just from plants, but can from this products. So it is more healthy.
- Symmetry 12y ago
  Being vegan makes it a bit of a challenge to get enough of the right sort of vitamins but it certainly is possible. And if you're willing to consume dairy it's actually pretty easy. You can't quite survive on milk and potatoes alone but it's close.

jemfinch 12y ago

Reading this article made me think of Terry Bisson's "They're Made Out of Meat", particularly apropos the conversation earlier today about the Fermi Paradox. http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html

ars 12y ago

I tried the product mentioned here "Beyond Meat". The texture was perfect. The taste was terrible - worse even than vegetarian meat alternatives (that don't have the right texture, but at least taste good). I only tried it once. I see they have some new products now, maybe I'll try those.

blakestein 12y ago
I've had Beyond Meat chicken. The texture is close but not nearly as close as the article makes it out to be. Some of the flavors are good up front, but sometimes it tastes like something close to playdough.
intopieces 12y ago
The chicken strips, right? They seem to be over-flavored, almost like a chicken lollypop. Maybe I just need to learn to cook it better.

discardorama 12y ago

As a vegetarian, I'm looking forward to more products from Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods. One of the criticisms people have is: it doesn't taste like real meat. To that, I'll say: tastes change. Sure, you (presumably of European descent) and your ancestors have been eating meat for 1000 years; but look at the spread of Indian/Chinese/Mexican places; your ancestors never had those foods! Heck, "chicken tikka" was voted as the 'national dish' of Britain, when a 100 years ago hardly anyone had heard of it! More people would be vegetarian if restaurants had it as a decent option. Hopefully, these new products will encourage restaurants to expand their veggie menus.

jules 12y ago
Restaurants have very little to do with it. Most of the time people eat at home, and they eat meat there too.
scrollaway 12y ago
I'm not sure what kind of strawman you are using as an argument here. People complain it doesn't taste like meat because they like the taste of meat, and your answer for those people is saying that since some people like some things they never tasted before, that specific food will grow on them? How did you get from A to B? (Edit: And obviously I have nothing against vegetarianism. I just don't like your argument here...) Edit 2: Really with downvotes now? This logic is acceptable to you?
- WalterSear 12y ago
  Tastes are very malleable. Among people who have gone without meat products for a while, who then taste meat products, either accidentally or on purpose, it is common to be disgusted by the taste, and find it in no way resembles the one they remember. I've had the same phenomenon related to me by people who radically alter their diet in other ways, such as body builders. So, ultimately, clinging to meat 'because you prefer the taste' is more about avoiding temporary discomfort, rather than permanent dissatisfaction. Though, of course, it doesn't appear that way until after the fact.

cwbrandsma 12y ago

Where I live, range cattle are everywhere. You go to the mountains and desert, just everywhere. Actually, we could raise a lot more here. What we can't raise easily is crops. There is too much rock in the ground, you can't plow without dynamite. Plus there is little water (that desert part). Pretty much every field with crops is irrigated -- constantly. Yet, somehow, cows and sheep do just fine. Sometimes you have to bring in water, but that is NOTHING compared to what it takes to grow crops here. I will also add one other item to the mix...don't call it burger. I will eat a vegetarian meal, it does not bother me at all. Just don't call it chicken or beef. In fact, don't try to be those things, just make good food without meat and I will eat it. But if you tell me it is beaf and it isn't, I WILL notice, and I won't be happy.

puredemo 12y ago
>But if you tell me it is beaf and it isn't, I WILL notice, and I won't be happy. Seconding that. Also, I'm allergic to legumes but not real beef. So you could be putting me in danger by calling a legume patty a "burger" or "beaf".
- somedudethere 12y ago
  Isn't "Beaf" supposed to be mash upbetween "Beef" and "Leaf" so you shouldn't expect "Beaf" to be "beef" But a burger can be anything. Chicken burger, hamburger, pork burger, etc. So I wouldn't have a problem having a vegetarian burger. Since "burger" describes the delivery mechanism and not the contents. But I do have a problem with things like "Chikin", "Beaf" and the like. Not because they are misleading, but because it is tacky. Just don't try to imitate real meat or at the very least make up a better description of the contents. "Legume burger" vs "Beaf burger". The deliberate misspellings of real food just make it "mystery meat". I've been looking at "veggie patties" on menus for years and still don't even know what the primary ingredient is. And that makes it harder for people to "trust". People seem to blindly eat these patties and what not but it just seems really weird to me that you are eating unidentified goop of vegetables that they are trying to pass off as meat. I guess you could spend time looking it up, but eh. We already have a problem where the majority of kids can't even connect that a chicken nugget comes out of a chicken. Calling it a "Legume burger" will seem kind of alien but in a few years it would help make the word "Legume" mainstream and familiar and everyone would be better off. I want to easily identify what is in my food if we switch off of meat.

sunshinerag 12y ago

Shouldn't he be just looking for grass fed healthy meat instead instead of switching to plant sources?

patrickg_zill 12y ago

No, the future of meat is... more meat. Really, the Saul Alinsky-style, revolution talk and identity politics are simply not needed when you are making an alternative to a product.

jasonisalive 12y ago

It's a shame to see the conversation here bypassing the real issue, which isn't taste, technological wow-factor, production efficiency, environmentalism, or entrepreneur chic. The real issue is animal welfare. Remember, every time you eat meat, you are actually eating the body of a former living creature, equipped with eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, and a complex nervous system capable of integrating its sensations, of feeling pain, fear, and depression. Rememeber, you have no way of guaranteeing (and in fact can actually be almost always certain) that this animal's life wasn't short, miserable, and didn't culminate with an utterly barbaric episode of fear and torture - and then rapid, mechanical dissembly into anonymous pieces, shipped off to your local supermarket or burger shop, its brutal, dirty provenance hidden by a facde of bright and happy advertising. Remember, every time you eat eggs, eat dairy or buy leather, you are participating and endorsing the same thing: industrial scale mistreatment and torture of animals. Watch the video linked in the article (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0) and remember, if you live in the US, the USDA is a captured regulator, completely toothless to prevent animal torture in slaughterhouses - in fact it simply assists in declaring whatever practices the food industry wants to use as humane. Remember, the majority of states are busy passing laws to make it illegal to film undercover videos in CAFOs and abattoirs, so no one can see what is actually going on (because if people did really see it and really understood they would be disgusted to their core.) If you live in any other country in the world, the situation is either much worse, or a little, but not much, better. If you believe that humans should live compassionately and avoid inflicting unnecessary suffering on other feeling, emotional creatures, then go vegan. Not vegetarian, vegan. Don't wait - do it today, not tomorrow. It's the only way that a person can look themselves in the mirror and be truly proud of what they see.

Perceptes 12y ago
This is one of the best comments I've read on HN. While I strongly agree with you, it's important to remember that even in what seem like brain-dead obvious cases, morality won't always be enough of a motivator to change people. What makes research and development like this important and exciting to me is that I believe it's the only way the world will ever really change on this issue. Convincing the entirety of the world that animal welfare is reason enough to go vegan is simply not going to happen. In the end, not eating meat needs to be 1) equal to or more satisfying than eating meat 2) equal or cheaper in cost 3) equal or more convenient.