11 ms·

Cat Litter Boxes and DRM

286 points by ds 12y ago

CapitalistCartr 12y ago
We've been hearing about computer tech coming to everything, even our coffee pots for so many years now. Who knew when it did, it'd be DRM. Keurig thought that was the way to better coffee, apparently. This has become idiotic. There appears to be someone at every corp that thinks this is a good idea and presses it. No downside, and huge potential upside. Until there is a negative, it will proliferate.
- click170 12y ago
  There's a very simple solution to this, at the moment. First of all, do your research on a product before you buy it, typically a quick google search will tell you whether or not there are any glaring problems with whatever it is you're considering. Second, if you find that something you purchased contains harmful DRM, return it to the retailer if it is within the returns window. If it is not, post it on Craigslist or equivalent explaining why you're getting rid of it, you'll find a buyer without losing much money. Thirdly, contact the company that made the product and inform them that you just returned or resold the product because it contains DRM that in your opinion is harmful to you the consumer, and that you will be avoiding any future products that include DRM, and that you will be sharing your BRAND_GOES_HERE experience with your friends and family. The more we push back against this, the harder it is for that big-wig at FooCorp to deny that DRM has downsides. This will only work in the early stages while there are alternatives though, so push back now.
  - pixl97 12y ago
    You're right, that's what people need to do. The problem? That's not what most people are going go do. Why? They will walk in to Walmart and see PooperScooperA for $100 and PooperScooperB for $200, will see the items have similar specs and buy A. Why they won't realize is A has DRM that only uses special expensive A packets. The packaging for A is going to hide this fact as much as possible. And you are right, it leaves that advertising to us to bitch, post, and yell about DRM wherever we can. Many people will complain about how tired they are about said posts. Some forums will even be paid off by manufactures to block such posts.
    - click170 12y ago
      You're right, that is a problem for people who haven't been bitten by DRM yet, but I find that it typically only happens once, at least to people who care about that kind of thing. This is how I see it going: Person buys slightly cheaper cat box. Person runs out of SpecialCleaningSolutionX that comes with the product. Person goes to buy more, but is taken aback by the high price of the cleaning solution. Person looks for noname brand cleaning solution and either doesn't find it, or does find it but finds out it doesn't work. Person then takes to social media to rant about their horrible experience with CompanyY and about how SpecialCleaningSolutionX costs far more than the price difference between that more expensive product was. Person's friends and family learn the lesson that Person did, but through osmsis. CompanyY wonders why sales for their product begin to drop off as word spreads. It's unfortunate that a lot of people have to buy it to find out how horrible it is, but the alternative is researching the product before buying it and there's nothing preventing them from doing that, it's just truly unfortunate that it's come to this.
- GhotiFish 12y ago
  People fully immersed in our industry are still coming to terms with open source/open access. It's easy to forget the sectors outside ours still have to walk the same irritating horrible path
pclark 12y ago
tangentially related to blog post but very relevant to cat shit – i recently bought a "top opening" cat litter box[1], and its incredible that they are not the norm. my biggest problem with cat litter is not the shit, but having cat litter be tracked across the bathroom - this is almost entirely solved with a top opening box. additionally, my dog is unable to eat the shit. [1]: https://www.clevercatinnovations.com/top_entry_litterbox_about.aspx https://www.clevercatinnovations.com/top_entry_litterbox_abo...
- silencio 12y ago
  I used to have a Clevercat litter box for my cat and she still tracked litter in places - not as much, but still. I replaced it with the Breeze litter box (http://www.tidycats.com/Products/Breeze http://www.tidycats.com/Products/Breeze) and I've been very happy ever since. Might be something to look into, although it doesn't solve the dog problem ;) Big pellets easier to deal with if flung out of the box + pads (you can use cheaper chux instead) drastically cuts down on the waste/effort and heavy bags of used and new litter, and makes me and my cat happy because there's no litter dust whatsoever to make us sneeze. It's a little loud and smellier, but whatever. One bag of pellets is one month, one pad per week (for my cat) and it's about ~$10-12 from Amazon (in bulk). There are some interesting workarounds for the box too, like I've heard of people using Feline Pine instead of the pellets and having the sawdust collect in the pad tray.
- anon4 12y ago
  Can you please not use "shit"? It's not that I mind or think it's profane, it's just so generic-meaning now (i.e. thing I don't like or involved in things I don't like happening) that when you say "my dog is unable to eat the shit", I'm not completely sure if you mean the poop, the litter or some other part of the whole construction.
  - mandlar 12y ago
    Pretty sure they mean literally eating the (cat's) shit.
    - 12y ago
pavel_lishin 12y ago
I feel like the litterbox of the future baking a shit lasagna once every two weeks is a pretty damned high failure rate. Aside from the obvious gross-out factor (I also assume you have to clean it manually after this happens?) I'd be worried that today it's the cat's poop, but tomorrow it'll cook the cat.
- donutz 12y ago
  Or worse, be worried that it'll set fire to the tinsel the cat ate and managed to poop out without manual intervention.
  - 0x83F1 12y ago
    If your pet eats something it shouldn't the absolute last thing you want is "manual intervention". Have you ever seen how potters cut lumps of doughy clay? They do it with wire. If you pull you can do the same to your pets intestines.
- Gracana 12y ago
  > but tomorrow it'll cook the cat I considered that as well, but it doesn't look like it closes up or gets particularly hot, I think it just warms up sufficiently to aid drying.
donutz 12y ago
"Every once in a while, when the scoop misses a giant cat poop the drying cycle cooks it. It gets dried out like a little raunchy piece of beef jerky. It ends up stinking the apartment up worse than one could imagine. It’s rare, happening maybe once every week or two" Thanks for striking this off my list of "things I think might be useful." I don't need the odor of fresh-baked cat poop wafting through my house. I'll stick with the freshly-poop cat poop smell that concentrates itself fairly well to the room the litterbox is in.
- abhorrence 12y ago
  For what it's worth, I think it depends mostly on your cats and the quality of cat food you're feeding them. I've had the baked poop happen only twice in about eight months. However, without knowing upfront how your cat's poop and the machine will get along, it's totally reasonable to not want to find out.
- phil21 12y ago
  I wouldn't write it off that quickly. This thing is life changing. As in it's one of those devices like Tivo you get and then realize you will never live like a heathen ever again. The baked-poo stuff happens occasionally. If your cat has solid/large... waste products, it will almost never be a problem. The problem is when you get "rabbit pellet" style poo, and it slips between the cracks of the scooper. There is also a small dead zone in the center sometimes - but you can usually resolve this by removing/adding pellets. I have a couple friends who have been using it for years, and I finally "upgraded" 3-4 months ago. Even if you have to replace it every 2 years, it's still a great deal. The DRM in it is indeed bullshit, but for one cat the cost is low enough to not making hacking it worth my time. Perhaps if I get really bored one day.
  - mkoryak 12y ago
    > This thing is life changing. not having to clean your cats poop once a day is "life changing" ?!
    - scrollaway 12y ago
dominotw 12y ago
I bought litter robot (www.litterrobot.com) couple of years ago and have never been happier. Please get it.
- ajvargo 12y ago
  correct url: http://www.litter-robot.com/ http://www.litter-robot.com/
- jevinskie 12y ago
  Agreed. Mine is very rugged, has a super simple mechanism (less things to break), and the only consumables are regular litter and trash bags. The cat loves it! Crap... this reminds me I should empty it.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    Doesn't it text you when it needs emptying, how uncivilised!
mkramlich 12y ago
simpler, cheaper, healthier alternate solution: have no cats
- stephencanon 12y ago
  Also a much more boring option. Pretty sure our cats have paid for themselves many times over in free entertainment.
  - mkramlich 12y ago
    having cats is not free. and there are tons of entertainment options, the vast majority of which don't shit, smell, scratch, bite or significantly increase the chance of children or the unborn being with infected with a mind-altering brain parasite. but yes, agreed, cats can do cute things, petting is fun, and feeling them purr is great. just have to weigh the trade-offs and beware of alternatives.
    - mkramlich 12y ago
      factually true comments should never be punished down to -1. HN's voting system is broken and too easily abused by people being jerks, helping to reinforce groupthink
      - cbd1984 12y ago
        Your comment is not factually true, it is a matter of opinion, and it's jerkish besides. We don't need someone coming in to reel off facts in a jerkish fashion. Facts aren't that hard to find.
- mkramlich 12y ago
  factually true, on-topic, helpful comments like mine should never be punished down to -4. HN's voting system is broken and too easily abused by people being jerks, helping to reinforce groupthink shame on anyone that contributed to that. you're part of why HN has such a hateful, obnoxious sub-culture that drives more mature people away
peatmoss 12y ago
I trained my cat to do its business in the toilet. I cannot tell you how much better this is than any other solution. There are training kits that our friends and family have now used for their cats. If you live near the ocean, you won't want to do this if your cat could be a toxoplasmosis carrier (I.e. is outdoors or otherwise could be eating rodents). Apparently toxoplasmosis makes it through water treatment and harms sea mammals. Otherwise, this is a great way to go.
- SyncTheory13 12y ago
  Is there a particular training kit that you recommend? What are they cons to this? Do they sometimes miss?
  - peatmoss 12y ago
    I did my own construction (not recommended). From the Amazon reviews, I ended up buying my parents a Citikitty training kit. I think a review of their main competitor, Litter Kwitter, said that kit was a bit flimsy and could result in a heavy cat taking a bath. I suppose there's always a chance that they'll miss during training, but neither I nor my parents had a problem. I had a fried try training three youngish kittens, and they had a couple mishaps, but I suspect that's par for the course. Our cat will "dig" in clean toilet water, which is a little gross. Fortunately, she won't dip her toes in soiled water. I'd much rather our cat track a little toilet water than soiled litter, as at least that has the benefit of some chlorine. We have a "no mellow" policy in our house. A recommendation: from day 1 we've rewarded our cat with the "Greenies" dental treats. As a result, she is pretty vocal about getting our attention when the toilet needs flushing, which is about twice a day (one solid, one liquid evacuation). Another benefit that we didn't anticipate, is that the vet always remarks at how clean her teeth are. So, win-win on the Greenies.
    - pronoiac 12y ago
      Oh, did you use Charles Mingus' cat training guide? http://mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/cat-traning-program http://mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/cat-traning-program (It is the jazz musician Mingus, and some friends are very find of this bit of trivia.)
forrestthewoods 12y ago
This is a relatively interesting situation imo. And it's tragically not unique. Another example is the Keurig machines. The latest model has DRM such that you can only use officially licensed Keurig cups. Suffice to say people were displeased. A delightful video showing how to get around it has 670,000 views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e0yCq1AEeY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e0yCq1AEeY So, here's why I think it's interesting. The companies that sell these products likely make the bulk of their profit from the consumables. That makes it economically viable to sell the machine at break even or possibly a loss. Then the money comes from the consumables. This is a pretty attractive business model both to the manufacturer and possibly even the consumer. The downside, of course, is that competitors can swoop in and make consumables as well. So now you're selling hardware for a loss and other people are selling consumables for razor thin margins and you're screwed. I don't think there is an obvious answer here. Some of these markets might not be viable if the hardware has to be sold for a profit. So that kinda sucks. But the DRM also treats consumers like shit, so that really sucks. Is perhaps the issue just that it isn't clearly stated up front? Amazon sells two flavors of Kindle readers. One with ads for less money and one without ads for more ($20). Once upon a time Apple sold DRM mp3s for 99 cents and DRM free mp3s for $1.29. Would you pay an extra $50 for a DRM free kitty litter box? Or an extra $100 (33%) on a fancy coffee maker? Here's my take away. Some products are subsidized by consumables. DRM enables that subsidy. Without DRM that product may not be viable. DRM can be minimally negative (Steam) but can also be maximum hostile (Keurig). Finding the balance is tough and we should talk more about it.
- leeoniya 12y ago
  Then offer me a +33%, DRM-free Keurig and let me decide what to buy. I would have much less aversion to the company if the choice existed. Except things are not that easy, for them to make up what they would lose in branded refills, they'd have to jack up the price not by 33%, but by >= 1000%. If they did this, you could extrapolate how long a tail they expect from each sold unit. The problem is, it's not simply selling the machine at a good profit; they are not selling you a machine, they are inexpensively buying your ability to choose...and that is worth a whole lot of money.
  - 12y ago
shmerl 12y ago
This is insane. What's next, DRM in cats?
- spectre256 12y ago
  If there weren't already an overabundance of cats available at every shelter, I would say that your idea is actually plausible. Internet sites like imgur could offer you discounted cats provided you were only able to upload funny videos or pictures of them to their own website, ensuring they get the resulting traffic.
- ErikRogneby 12y ago
  Designer cat clubs. Ala SweeTango... http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/11/10/358530280/want-to-grow-these-apples-youll-have-to-join-the-club http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/11/10/358530280/want-t...
- Untit1ed 12y ago
  It's not that ridiculous when you think about it - certain breeds are worth ridiculous amounts of money - how much longer until we see genetically engineered proofs of pedigree integrated into the DNA of the cats themselves? Perhaps something to stop you from breeding more?
  - tlrobinson 12y ago
    Roundup Ready Cats?
  - shmerl 12y ago
    Imagine what kind of DRM mess will begin when cyborgs will become a reality?
- ars 12y ago
  > What's next, DRM in cats? Yup! Except foxes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
anigbrowl 12y ago
I do my cat litter manually, but the author seems to have overlooked the Litter Robot: http://www.litter-robot.com/ http://www.litter-robot.com/ My friend has one and it works very well (for years now). It just uses off the shelf cat litter. The mechanism is 'brute force' rather than optimized, but it works: after the machine senses the cat has stepped out by the change in weight, it slowly rotates the entire cat chamber, causing any deposits to be covered by falling litter even if the cat hasn't buried them by choice, before hitting the mechanical filter that diverts any solids into a disposal drawer. It's purely mechanical, so the odor control/dust level is as good as your choice of litter product. Downsides are that it's a bit bulky and noisy. but there's no DRM and it's so mechanically simple that there's not much that can go wrong with it - it certainly won't bake the cat poop like the machine described - yuck.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  It's also the size of a Death Star and tragically expensive. I just picked up this thing, which sort of splits the difference: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XSC8R2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XSC8R2/ref=oh_aui_detai...
  - jevinskie 12y ago
    I found mine doesn't take up much more room than the old large litter box + tray. I also have the "roomier" bubble unit. They do offer refurbished models for $60 less.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    the size of a Death Star Problem solved: http://diyfather.com/wp-content/uploads/darth-vader-cat2.jpg http://diyfather.com/wp-content/uploads/darth-vader-cat2.jpg
- GhotiFish 12y ago
  I really like the design this thing uses. That mechanism is clever.
- joesmo 12y ago
zafka 12y ago
We still have the manual version, but this fascinates me. It seems there is still an opening for a high end solution. The race is on.....
schoen 12y ago
I read some ways into this before I was confident that it wasn't a Cory Doctorow science fiction story!
DigitalSea 12y ago
The best purchase I have ever made for my cat was using the expensive crystal litter. It costs way more than the cheap cardboard pellet one you can buy, but each crystal contains some kind of scent and really, I clean it once a day and it never smells that bad. They make a big mess if you don't put a mat beneath the tray though and get tracked through the house like tiny granules of sugar. I have considered a robot litter box, but seems to me, the cost far outweighs the benefit of not having to change the litter yourself very quickly. These things are pricey and based on what I've read in this post and tonnes of reviews online, they're not particularly that great.
- trhway 12y ago
  >The best purchase I have ever made for my cat was using the expensive crystal litter. expensive or not, getting correct litter is the key. And the mat of course. And feeding good food to your cat - that would significantly take care about smell, consistency, frequency and other important characteristics of the output product, not even mentioning overall health and well being of the cat.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
Go home humans. You are drunk.
userbinator 12y ago
Things like this are partly why I'm wary of the "ubiquitous security" (encrypt everything, tamperproof hardware, signed binaries, etc.) concept that a lot of people are pushing -- yes they can benefit the user but in the current environment of capitalism, chances are that any security measures are going to be used against you, to secure some company's profits, if they become cheap enough to implement. As an aside, I think it's odd that there's alternate open-source firmware and cartridge resetters for a cat litter box, as well as some 3D printers, and there are completely-open-source 3D printers, but basically nothing at all of that sort for regular inkjet printers.
- rosser 12y ago
  ...but basically nothing at all of that sort for regular inkjet printers. Inkjet cartridge refills (as opposed to refill cartridges)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_refill_kit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_refill_kit
ddunkin 12y ago
Calling the chip 'DRM' sounds like media sensationalism, it really is just 'dumb memory'. Maybe I think this because I knew exactly how the cartridges worked when I did my initial research on the unit (and knew about the CartridgeGenius as an option before purchase), so I had no surprise when it worked how it did.
- mikeash 12y ago
  Can other manufacturers reasonably create compatible chips? That to me would mark the difference between DRM and mere smarts.
monochromatic 12y ago
I used to have one of these, and I completely agree with the article. The DRM is shitty, the solution is expensive, and my house would periodically smell like baking cat feces. Eventually unit started to do the turd bakery routine more and more often (a worse failure mode is hardly even imaginable). So I replaced it with a Litter Robot[1]. With the exception of having to buy regular cat litter, which isn't a big deal, it's better in every way. It runs in a couple of minutes instead of like 40 minutes. It's quieter. The litter doesn't get tracked around nearly as much as the plastic pebbles. It also has never turned my house into a shit oven. [1] http://www.litter-robot.com/ http://www.litter-robot.com/
Animats 12y ago
This is becoming so common. There are 3D printers that only take their very own special cartridges of plastic filament. The Form I, which started as a Kickstarter project, requires a proprietary resin fluid which costs $149/liter. (It's gone up; it was $130/l a few months ago.) However, it doesn't have a DRM system to enforce that.
- spdustin 12y ago
  My Da Vinci 3D printer does this - the cartridges report how much filament they have left, and the gcode for a print includes how much filament the print is meant to use. When the printer thinks a cartridge of filament is empty, it refuses to use it, even if it still has filament in it. Like many other DRM'd products, there are hacks for the printer that can get around this (one resets the filament "odometer", another convinces the printer that your print uses zero meters of filament). Existence of these hacks typically doesn't affect the makers of these DRM'd consumer-level products (like the cat litter box or the Keurig machine), in my estimation. Most consumers simply won't know that they have an option to either by choose another vendor, or find a hack to get around it. People who buy 3D printers are already primed to hack that thing to pieces, though. In that case I think the DRM was a waste of time and money. They didn't understand their target market.
ifelsethen 12y ago
tldr; protip: potty train.
randunel 12y ago
I guess you wouldn't mind losing your warranty on a cat litter machine, but you definitely would suffer losing your warranty on a €20000 car. Although you currently don't have an alternative for that car's DRM, I'm sure someone will come up with something once these get popular enough. The cost of leasing the battery for 36 months starts from €79/month (US$104/month) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe Later edit My statements were based on the previous rent-only strategy. Meanwhile, they also introduced the option to actually purchase the battery for ~€4000. As if your handing in your driving data wasn't enough, they can also disallow your charging at any time, and here is an excerpt from their TOS: 18.3 Battery Data For management, administration, and accounting we will collect information about your use of the Battery and the Electric Vehicle. This is to allow us to manage battery stocks, maintain hire payments at a competitive level, monitor performance of your Battery and monitor mileage and fast charge use. This data will be transmitted to us by the telematic box installed in the Vehicle. If you would like more information about this technical data, please write to Renault ZE Customer Services, RCI Financial Services, P.O. Box 495, Watford, Hertfordshire, WD17 1GL. If you have opted to install a Connection Pack we will also receive data about your location. If you do not wish us to receive location data you may disconnect the telematic box. Instructions for disconnecting the telematic box will be in the Connection Pack.
444000 12y ago
To be honest, all your problems with the smell, and stuff getting everywhere, cleaning bags, etc. would go away with Worlds best cat litter (http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Cat-Litter-Multiple/dp/B000QSK4ZM http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Cat-Litter-Multiple/dp/B00...) - you just flush stuff down the toilet, and it's doesn't smell.

286 points by ds 12y ago

We've been hearing about computer tech coming to everything, even our coffee pots for so many years now. Who knew when it did, it'd be DRM. Keurig thought that was the way to better coffee, apparently. This has become idiotic. There appears to be someone at every corp that thinks this is a good idea and presses it. No downside, and huge potential upside. Until there is a negative, it will proliferate.

click170 12y ago
There's a very simple solution to this, at the moment. First of all, do your research on a product before you buy it, typically a quick google search will tell you whether or not there are any glaring problems with whatever it is you're considering. Second, if you find that something you purchased contains harmful DRM, return it to the retailer if it is within the returns window. If it is not, post it on Craigslist or equivalent explaining why you're getting rid of it, you'll find a buyer without losing much money. Thirdly, contact the company that made the product and inform them that you just returned or resold the product because it contains DRM that in your opinion is harmful to you the consumer, and that you will be avoiding any future products that include DRM, and that you will be sharing your BRAND_GOES_HERE experience with your friends and family. The more we push back against this, the harder it is for that big-wig at FooCorp to deny that DRM has downsides. This will only work in the early stages while there are alternatives though, so push back now.
- pixl97 12y ago
  You're right, that's what people need to do. The problem? That's not what most people are going go do. Why? They will walk in to Walmart and see PooperScooperA for $100 and PooperScooperB for $200, will see the items have similar specs and buy A. Why they won't realize is A has DRM that only uses special expensive A packets. The packaging for A is going to hide this fact as much as possible. And you are right, it leaves that advertising to us to bitch, post, and yell about DRM wherever we can. Many people will complain about how tired they are about said posts. Some forums will even be paid off by manufactures to block such posts.
  - click170 12y ago
    You're right, that is a problem for people who haven't been bitten by DRM yet, but I find that it typically only happens once, at least to people who care about that kind of thing. This is how I see it going: Person buys slightly cheaper cat box. Person runs out of SpecialCleaningSolutionX that comes with the product. Person goes to buy more, but is taken aback by the high price of the cleaning solution. Person looks for noname brand cleaning solution and either doesn't find it, or does find it but finds out it doesn't work. Person then takes to social media to rant about their horrible experience with CompanyY and about how SpecialCleaningSolutionX costs far more than the price difference between that more expensive product was. Person's friends and family learn the lesson that Person did, but through osmsis. CompanyY wonders why sales for their product begin to drop off as word spreads. It's unfortunate that a lot of people have to buy it to find out how horrible it is, but the alternative is researching the product before buying it and there's nothing preventing them from doing that, it's just truly unfortunate that it's come to this.
GhotiFish 12y ago
People fully immersed in our industry are still coming to terms with open source/open access. It's easy to forget the sectors outside ours still have to walk the same irritating horrible path

pclark 12y ago

tangentially related to blog post but very relevant to cat shit – i recently bought a "top opening" cat litter box[1], and its incredible that they are not the norm. my biggest problem with cat litter is not the shit, but having cat litter be tracked across the bathroom - this is almost entirely solved with a top opening box. additionally, my dog is unable to eat the shit. [1]: https://www.clevercatinnovations.com/top_entry_litterbox_about.aspx https://www.clevercatinnovations.com/top_entry_litterbox_abo...

silencio 12y ago
I used to have a Clevercat litter box for my cat and she still tracked litter in places - not as much, but still. I replaced it with the Breeze litter box (http://www.tidycats.com/Products/Breeze http://www.tidycats.com/Products/Breeze) and I've been very happy ever since. Might be something to look into, although it doesn't solve the dog problem ;) Big pellets easier to deal with if flung out of the box + pads (you can use cheaper chux instead) drastically cuts down on the waste/effort and heavy bags of used and new litter, and makes me and my cat happy because there's no litter dust whatsoever to make us sneeze. It's a little loud and smellier, but whatever. One bag of pellets is one month, one pad per week (for my cat) and it's about ~$10-12 from Amazon (in bulk). There are some interesting workarounds for the box too, like I've heard of people using Feline Pine instead of the pellets and having the sawdust collect in the pad tray.
anon4 12y ago
Can you please not use "shit"? It's not that I mind or think it's profane, it's just so generic-meaning now (i.e. thing I don't like or involved in things I don't like happening) that when you say "my dog is unable to eat the shit", I'm not completely sure if you mean the poop, the litter or some other part of the whole construction.
- mandlar 12y ago
  Pretty sure they mean literally eating the (cat's) shit.
  - 12y ago

pavel_lishin 12y ago

I feel like the litterbox of the future baking a shit lasagna once every two weeks is a pretty damned high failure rate. Aside from the obvious gross-out factor (I also assume you have to clean it manually after this happens?) I'd be worried that today it's the cat's poop, but tomorrow it'll cook the cat.

donutz 12y ago
Or worse, be worried that it'll set fire to the tinsel the cat ate and managed to poop out without manual intervention.
- 0x83F1 12y ago
  If your pet eats something it shouldn't the absolute last thing you want is "manual intervention". Have you ever seen how potters cut lumps of doughy clay? They do it with wire. If you pull you can do the same to your pets intestines.
Gracana 12y ago
> but tomorrow it'll cook the cat I considered that as well, but it doesn't look like it closes up or gets particularly hot, I think it just warms up sufficiently to aid drying.

donutz 12y ago

"Every once in a while, when the scoop misses a giant cat poop the drying cycle cooks it. It gets dried out like a little raunchy piece of beef jerky. It ends up stinking the apartment up worse than one could imagine. It’s rare, happening maybe once every week or two" Thanks for striking this off my list of "things I think might be useful." I don't need the odor of fresh-baked cat poop wafting through my house. I'll stick with the freshly-poop cat poop smell that concentrates itself fairly well to the room the litterbox is in.

abhorrence 12y ago
For what it's worth, I think it depends mostly on your cats and the quality of cat food you're feeding them. I've had the baked poop happen only twice in about eight months. However, without knowing upfront how your cat's poop and the machine will get along, it's totally reasonable to not want to find out.
phil21 12y ago
I wouldn't write it off that quickly. This thing is life changing. As in it's one of those devices like Tivo you get and then realize you will never live like a heathen ever again. The baked-poo stuff happens occasionally. If your cat has solid/large... waste products, it will almost never be a problem. The problem is when you get "rabbit pellet" style poo, and it slips between the cracks of the scooper. There is also a small dead zone in the center sometimes - but you can usually resolve this by removing/adding pellets. I have a couple friends who have been using it for years, and I finally "upgraded" 3-4 months ago. Even if you have to replace it every 2 years, it's still a great deal. The DRM in it is indeed bullshit, but for one cat the cost is low enough to not making hacking it worth my time. Perhaps if I get really bored one day.
- mkoryak 12y ago
  > This thing is life changing. not having to clean your cats poop once a day is "life changing" ?!
  - scrollaway 12y ago

dominotw 12y ago

I bought litter robot (www.litterrobot.com) couple of years ago and have never been happier. Please get it.

ajvargo 12y ago
correct url: http://www.litter-robot.com/ http://www.litter-robot.com/
jevinskie 12y ago
Agreed. Mine is very rugged, has a super simple mechanism (less things to break), and the only consumables are regular litter and trash bags. The cat loves it! Crap... this reminds me I should empty it.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  Doesn't it text you when it needs emptying, how uncivilised!

mkramlich 12y ago

simpler, cheaper, healthier alternate solution: have no cats

stephencanon 12y ago
Also a much more boring option. Pretty sure our cats have paid for themselves many times over in free entertainment.
- mkramlich 12y ago
  having cats is not free. and there are tons of entertainment options, the vast majority of which don't shit, smell, scratch, bite or significantly increase the chance of children or the unborn being with infected with a mind-altering brain parasite. but yes, agreed, cats can do cute things, petting is fun, and feeling them purr is great. just have to weigh the trade-offs and beware of alternatives.
  - mkramlich 12y ago
    factually true comments should never be punished down to -1. HN's voting system is broken and too easily abused by people being jerks, helping to reinforce groupthink
    - cbd1984 12y ago
      Your comment is not factually true, it is a matter of opinion, and it's jerkish besides. We don't need someone coming in to reel off facts in a jerkish fashion. Facts aren't that hard to find.
mkramlich 12y ago
factually true, on-topic, helpful comments like mine should never be punished down to -4. HN's voting system is broken and too easily abused by people being jerks, helping to reinforce groupthink shame on anyone that contributed to that. you're part of why HN has such a hateful, obnoxious sub-culture that drives more mature people away

peatmoss 12y ago

I trained my cat to do its business in the toilet. I cannot tell you how much better this is than any other solution. There are training kits that our friends and family have now used for their cats. If you live near the ocean, you won't want to do this if your cat could be a toxoplasmosis carrier (I.e. is outdoors or otherwise could be eating rodents). Apparently toxoplasmosis makes it through water treatment and harms sea mammals. Otherwise, this is a great way to go.

SyncTheory13 12y ago
Is there a particular training kit that you recommend? What are they cons to this? Do they sometimes miss?
- peatmoss 12y ago
  I did my own construction (not recommended). From the Amazon reviews, I ended up buying my parents a Citikitty training kit. I think a review of their main competitor, Litter Kwitter, said that kit was a bit flimsy and could result in a heavy cat taking a bath. I suppose there's always a chance that they'll miss during training, but neither I nor my parents had a problem. I had a fried try training three youngish kittens, and they had a couple mishaps, but I suspect that's par for the course. Our cat will "dig" in clean toilet water, which is a little gross. Fortunately, she won't dip her toes in soiled water. I'd much rather our cat track a little toilet water than soiled litter, as at least that has the benefit of some chlorine. We have a "no mellow" policy in our house. A recommendation: from day 1 we've rewarded our cat with the "Greenies" dental treats. As a result, she is pretty vocal about getting our attention when the toilet needs flushing, which is about twice a day (one solid, one liquid evacuation). Another benefit that we didn't anticipate, is that the vet always remarks at how clean her teeth are. So, win-win on the Greenies.
  - pronoiac 12y ago
    Oh, did you use Charles Mingus' cat training guide? http://mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/cat-traning-program http://mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/cat-traning-program (It is the jazz musician Mingus, and some friends are very find of this bit of trivia.)

forrestthewoods 12y ago

This is a relatively interesting situation imo. And it's tragically not unique. Another example is the Keurig machines. The latest model has DRM such that you can only use officially licensed Keurig cups. Suffice to say people were displeased. A delightful video showing how to get around it has 670,000 views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e0yCq1AEeY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e0yCq1AEeY So, here's why I think it's interesting. The companies that sell these products likely make the bulk of their profit from the consumables. That makes it economically viable to sell the machine at break even or possibly a loss. Then the money comes from the consumables. This is a pretty attractive business model both to the manufacturer and possibly even the consumer. The downside, of course, is that competitors can swoop in and make consumables as well. So now you're selling hardware for a loss and other people are selling consumables for razor thin margins and you're screwed. I don't think there is an obvious answer here. Some of these markets might not be viable if the hardware has to be sold for a profit. So that kinda sucks. But the DRM also treats consumers like shit, so that really sucks. Is perhaps the issue just that it isn't clearly stated up front? Amazon sells two flavors of Kindle readers. One with ads for less money and one without ads for more ($20). Once upon a time Apple sold DRM mp3s for 99 cents and DRM free mp3s for $1.29. Would you pay an extra $50 for a DRM free kitty litter box? Or an extra $100 (33%) on a fancy coffee maker? Here's my take away. Some products are subsidized by consumables. DRM enables that subsidy. Without DRM that product may not be viable. DRM can be minimally negative (Steam) but can also be maximum hostile (Keurig). Finding the balance is tough and we should talk more about it.

leeoniya 12y ago
Then offer me a +33%, DRM-free Keurig and let me decide what to buy. I would have much less aversion to the company if the choice existed. Except things are not that easy, for them to make up what they would lose in branded refills, they'd have to jack up the price not by 33%, but by >= 1000%. If they did this, you could extrapolate how long a tail they expect from each sold unit. The problem is, it's not simply selling the machine at a good profit; they are not selling you a machine, they are inexpensively buying your ability to choose...and that is worth a whole lot of money.
- 12y ago

shmerl 12y ago

This is insane. What's next, DRM in cats?

spectre256 12y ago
If there weren't already an overabundance of cats available at every shelter, I would say that your idea is actually plausible. Internet sites like imgur could offer you discounted cats provided you were only able to upload funny videos or pictures of them to their own website, ensuring they get the resulting traffic.
ErikRogneby 12y ago
Designer cat clubs. Ala SweeTango... http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/11/10/358530280/want-to-grow-these-apples-youll-have-to-join-the-club http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/11/10/358530280/want-t...
Untit1ed 12y ago
It's not that ridiculous when you think about it - certain breeds are worth ridiculous amounts of money - how much longer until we see genetically engineered proofs of pedigree integrated into the DNA of the cats themselves? Perhaps something to stop you from breeding more?
- tlrobinson 12y ago
  Roundup Ready Cats?
- shmerl 12y ago
  Imagine what kind of DRM mess will begin when cyborgs will become a reality?
ars 12y ago
> What's next, DRM in cats? Yup! Except foxes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

anigbrowl 12y ago

I do my cat litter manually, but the author seems to have overlooked the Litter Robot: http://www.litter-robot.com/ http://www.litter-robot.com/ My friend has one and it works very well (for years now). It just uses off the shelf cat litter. The mechanism is 'brute force' rather than optimized, but it works: after the machine senses the cat has stepped out by the change in weight, it slowly rotates the entire cat chamber, causing any deposits to be covered by falling litter even if the cat hasn't buried them by choice, before hitting the mechanical filter that diverts any solids into a disposal drawer. It's purely mechanical, so the odor control/dust level is as good as your choice of litter product. Downsides are that it's a bit bulky and noisy. but there's no DRM and it's so mechanically simple that there's not much that can go wrong with it - it certainly won't bake the cat poop like the machine described - yuck.

Domenic_S 12y ago
It's also the size of a Death Star and tragically expensive. I just picked up this thing, which sort of splits the difference: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XSC8R2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XSC8R2/ref=oh_aui_detai...
- jevinskie 12y ago
  I found mine doesn't take up much more room than the old large litter box + tray. I also have the "roomier" bubble unit. They do offer refurbished models for $60 less.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  the size of a Death Star Problem solved: http://diyfather.com/wp-content/uploads/darth-vader-cat2.jpg http://diyfather.com/wp-content/uploads/darth-vader-cat2.jpg
GhotiFish 12y ago
I really like the design this thing uses. That mechanism is clever.
joesmo 12y ago

zafka 12y ago

We still have the manual version, but this fascinates me. It seems there is still an opening for a high end solution. The race is on.....

schoen 12y ago

I read some ways into this before I was confident that it wasn't a Cory Doctorow science fiction story!

DigitalSea 12y ago

The best purchase I have ever made for my cat was using the expensive crystal litter. It costs way more than the cheap cardboard pellet one you can buy, but each crystal contains some kind of scent and really, I clean it once a day and it never smells that bad. They make a big mess if you don't put a mat beneath the tray though and get tracked through the house like tiny granules of sugar. I have considered a robot litter box, but seems to me, the cost far outweighs the benefit of not having to change the litter yourself very quickly. These things are pricey and based on what I've read in this post and tonnes of reviews online, they're not particularly that great.

trhway 12y ago
>The best purchase I have ever made for my cat was using the expensive crystal litter. expensive or not, getting correct litter is the key. And the mat of course. And feeding good food to your cat - that would significantly take care about smell, consistency, frequency and other important characteristics of the output product, not even mentioning overall health and well being of the cat.

lotsofmangos 12y ago

Go home humans. You are drunk.

userbinator 12y ago

Things like this are partly why I'm wary of the "ubiquitous security" (encrypt everything, tamperproof hardware, signed binaries, etc.) concept that a lot of people are pushing -- yes they can benefit the user but in the current environment of capitalism, chances are that any security measures are going to be used against you, to secure some company's profits, if they become cheap enough to implement. As an aside, I think it's odd that there's alternate open-source firmware and cartridge resetters for a cat litter box, as well as some 3D printers, and there are completely-open-source 3D printers, but basically nothing at all of that sort for regular inkjet printers.

rosser 12y ago
...but basically nothing at all of that sort for regular inkjet printers. Inkjet cartridge refills (as opposed to refill cartridges)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_refill_kit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_refill_kit

ddunkin 12y ago

Calling the chip 'DRM' sounds like media sensationalism, it really is just 'dumb memory'. Maybe I think this because I knew exactly how the cartridges worked when I did my initial research on the unit (and knew about the CartridgeGenius as an option before purchase), so I had no surprise when it worked how it did.

mikeash 12y ago
Can other manufacturers reasonably create compatible chips? That to me would mark the difference between DRM and mere smarts.

monochromatic 12y ago

I used to have one of these, and I completely agree with the article. The DRM is shitty, the solution is expensive, and my house would periodically smell like baking cat feces. Eventually unit started to do the turd bakery routine more and more often (a worse failure mode is hardly even imaginable). So I replaced it with a Litter Robot[1]. With the exception of having to buy regular cat litter, which isn't a big deal, it's better in every way. It runs in a couple of minutes instead of like 40 minutes. It's quieter. The litter doesn't get tracked around nearly as much as the plastic pebbles. It also has never turned my house into a shit oven. [1] http://www.litter-robot.com/ http://www.litter-robot.com/

Animats 12y ago

This is becoming so common. There are 3D printers that only take their very own special cartridges of plastic filament. The Form I, which started as a Kickstarter project, requires a proprietary resin fluid which costs $149/liter. (It's gone up; it was $130/l a few months ago.) However, it doesn't have a DRM system to enforce that.

spdustin 12y ago
My Da Vinci 3D printer does this - the cartridges report how much filament they have left, and the gcode for a print includes how much filament the print is meant to use. When the printer thinks a cartridge of filament is empty, it refuses to use it, even if it still has filament in it. Like many other DRM'd products, there are hacks for the printer that can get around this (one resets the filament "odometer", another convinces the printer that your print uses zero meters of filament). Existence of these hacks typically doesn't affect the makers of these DRM'd consumer-level products (like the cat litter box or the Keurig machine), in my estimation. Most consumers simply won't know that they have an option to either by choose another vendor, or find a hack to get around it. People who buy 3D printers are already primed to hack that thing to pieces, though. In that case I think the DRM was a waste of time and money. They didn't understand their target market.

ifelsethen 12y ago

tldr; protip: potty train.

randunel 12y ago

I guess you wouldn't mind losing your warranty on a cat litter machine, but you definitely would suffer losing your warranty on a €20000 car. Although you currently don't have an alternative for that car's DRM, I'm sure someone will come up with something once these get popular enough. The cost of leasing the battery for 36 months starts from €79/month (US$104/month) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe Later edit My statements were based on the previous rent-only strategy. Meanwhile, they also introduced the option to actually purchase the battery for ~€4000. As if your handing in your driving data wasn't enough, they can also disallow your charging at any time, and here is an excerpt from their TOS: 18.3 Battery Data For management, administration, and accounting we will collect information about your use of the Battery and the Electric Vehicle. This is to allow us to manage battery stocks, maintain hire payments at a competitive level, monitor performance of your Battery and monitor mileage and fast charge use. This data will be transmitted to us by the telematic box installed in the Vehicle. If you would like more information about this technical data, please write to Renault ZE Customer Services, RCI Financial Services, P.O. Box 495, Watford, Hertfordshire, WD17 1GL. If you have opted to install a Connection Pack we will also receive data about your location. If you do not wish us to receive location data you may disconnect the telematic box. Instructions for disconnecting the telematic box will be in the Connection Pack.

444000 12y ago

To be honest, all your problems with the smell, and stuff getting everywhere, cleaning bags, etc. would go away with Worlds best cat litter (http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Cat-Litter-Multiple/dp/B000QSK4ZM http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Cat-Litter-Multiple/dp/B00...) - you just flush stuff down the toilet, and it's doesn't smell.