5 ms·

For CIA, truth about torture was an existential threat

15 points by cottonseed 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- computer 12y ago
  It seems that the CIA actually doesn't know who they are, given that many of those that were tortured for months turned out to be innocent.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- api 12y ago
  Who's a "terrorist?" In many of these countries, we basically put out a call for people to turn in "terrorists" in exchange for cash rewards. You can imagine what happened next.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - api 12y ago
      I think you're greatly overestimating both the omniscience and the competence of intelligence agencies.
    - oldmanjay 12y ago
      In the interest of universal balance I find it fair to point out they feel the same way about you.
      - api 12y ago
        If they didn't before these torture activities, well, they sure do now!
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        jokoon 12y ago
        > no "let's look at their side" I think there is a lot to gain trying to anticipate what your enemy might want to do. That's the job of intelligence agencies. Terrorists are convinced they're doing something good and fair. If you can understand that, you can retreat from a mentality of conflict and de-escalate. When you invade a country to target a few bad guys, those terrorist groups will be politically reinforced because you set a military foot in their country for whatever reason. Setting a military foot in another country is a very risky move. > You're a funny guy and obviously never served in the military. Terrorism isn't solved with the military, it's solved with politics and diplomacy. Ten wasps will always manage to sting a bull if they want to. Can a bull win against all the wasps ? I don't think so. Guerilla warfare can't be dealt with firepower. It's dealt with political strategy and intel. I totally agree with you that terrorists are bullies who only have their own opinions and that it's stupid for them to use violence, and that the only way to stop them is with violence. But it should be done with the same kinds of weapons: finesse, stealth and efficiency. If the bull downs all the trees because he was stung by 3 wasps, he will lose the conflict.
- reverend_gonzo 12y ago
  From the article: "They insisted that Abu Zubaydah was a top al Qaeda figure who, only after being waterboarded, provided information that foiled a major attack on the U.S. – even though Zubaydah wasn’t in al Qaeda, the plot was a farce, and the only related information he provided came before he was tortured." So, no the CIA did not know who these people were.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- matthewmcg 12y ago
  Except that the authorities might make a mistake in determining whether someone is a terrorist. When you are considering how the justice system should work (or how to treat "enemy combatants" if you believe that this is a war and not a criminal matter), you should consider: what if I were in that position and I were wrongfully accused? How should I be treated? Call it the golden rule, reciprocity, the Rawlsian veil of ignorance, or just an acknowledgement that we never have perfect information.
cafard 12y ago
Such truths have been told before, going back at least 40 years, and the CIA is still there. Certainly they didn't want the news out, if that's what you mean.
mcv 12y ago
What I'd like to know is: when will all the people who are guilty of these terrible crimes, as well as the ones who lied to Congress about it, be tried for those crimes? Will the US as a nation really condemn torture? I hope it will, but I fear it won't.

15 points by cottonseed 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

computer 12y ago
It seems that the CIA actually doesn't know who they are, given that many of those that were tortured for months turned out to be innocent.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
api 12y ago
Who's a "terrorist?" In many of these countries, we basically put out a call for people to turn in "terrorists" in exchange for cash rewards. You can imagine what happened next.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - api 12y ago
    I think you're greatly overestimating both the omniscience and the competence of intelligence agencies.
  - oldmanjay 12y ago
    In the interest of universal balance I find it fair to point out they feel the same way about you.
    - api 12y ago
      If they didn't before these torture activities, well, they sure do now!
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - jokoon 12y ago
        > no "let's look at their side" I think there is a lot to gain trying to anticipate what your enemy might want to do. That's the job of intelligence agencies. Terrorists are convinced they're doing something good and fair. If you can understand that, you can retreat from a mentality of conflict and de-escalate. When you invade a country to target a few bad guys, those terrorist groups will be politically reinforced because you set a military foot in their country for whatever reason. Setting a military foot in another country is a very risky move. > You're a funny guy and obviously never served in the military. Terrorism isn't solved with the military, it's solved with politics and diplomacy. Ten wasps will always manage to sting a bull if they want to. Can a bull win against all the wasps ? I don't think so. Guerilla warfare can't be dealt with firepower. It's dealt with political strategy and intel. I totally agree with you that terrorists are bullies who only have their own opinions and that it's stupid for them to use violence, and that the only way to stop them is with violence. But it should be done with the same kinds of weapons: finesse, stealth and efficiency. If the bull downs all the trees because he was stung by 3 wasps, he will lose the conflict.
reverend_gonzo 12y ago
From the article: "They insisted that Abu Zubaydah was a top al Qaeda figure who, only after being waterboarded, provided information that foiled a major attack on the U.S. – even though Zubaydah wasn’t in al Qaeda, the plot was a farce, and the only related information he provided came before he was tortured." So, no the CIA did not know who these people were.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
matthewmcg 12y ago
Except that the authorities might make a mistake in determining whether someone is a terrorist. When you are considering how the justice system should work (or how to treat "enemy combatants" if you believe that this is a war and not a criminal matter), you should consider: what if I were in that position and I were wrongfully accused? How should I be treated? Call it the golden rule, reciprocity, the Rawlsian veil of ignorance, or just an acknowledgement that we never have perfect information.

cafard 12y ago

Such truths have been told before, going back at least 40 years, and the CIA is still there. Certainly they didn't want the news out, if that's what you mean.

mcv 12y ago

What I'd like to know is: when will all the people who are guilty of these terrible crimes, as well as the ones who lied to Congress about it, be tried for those crimes? Will the US as a nation really condemn torture? I hope it will, but I fear it won't.