8 ms·

>I'd rather pay for VPN to ensure global freedom of speech, You using a VPN wont change russian laws.That's the issue. I'm french and piratebay is on its way

by aikah 12y ago

>I'd rather pay for VPN to ensure global freedom of speech, You using a VPN wont change russian laws.That's the issue. I'm french and piratebay is on its way to be blocked at the ISP level here. Me getting a VPN will not change the fact that this shouldnt happen and that french people need to do something to change these insane laws. Granted its tougher to go against russian politicians and lawmakers that french ones. But you're not getting more freedom of speech and information with a VPN,neither do I. I've been in Russia numerous times , and frankly I have hard time understanding what's going on there today. I think Putin genuinely thinks that without him Russia is doomed or something,which is a mistake.Russia can only survive if its politicians have faith in Russia's institutions, It's not about this or that guy,or it's just another dictatorship.

javert 12y ago
Stealing intellectual property is entirely different from censorship, and I'm disappointed to see these two things being lumped together here.
- seszett 12y ago
  Censoring Github repositories because they provide suicide methods which is unlawful in Russia, and censoring thepiratebay because it provides access to copyrighted content which is unlawful in France, are exactly the same things. The legal reasons behind the censorship are not important here, it all basically comes down to whether Github recognizes the local law of countries it serves content to, or not.
  - lsaferite 12y ago
    The bigger problem then becomes, if they cater to the laws of every country they serve content into then you have this lowest common denominator of laws EVERY user of github would have to follow. If I post suicide methods in English, would that be censored? If I post inflammatory information about Chinese or Indian politicians, would that censored? When you start censoring, where do you draw the line? When you start allowing countries to extend their jurisdiction into 'cyberspace' how could you ever expect to not fall afoul of SOME law in SOME country. Do you only extend those concessions to large countries? Ultimately it's github's decision to make in this case, but companies should have more than profit (or marketshare) in mind. I find censorship repugnant. While I understand you have to comply with the laws of a country in which you are physically located, I think that should be the extent to which you accommodate things like this.
    - LLWM 12y ago
      There's a very simple middle ground of only restricting access to unlawful materials for the users of the jurisdictions where that material is illegal. That's what github did, and that's what twitter did. The service as a whole isn't the lowest common denominator, it's just customized to your own local laws.
    - agersant 12y ago
      > The bigger problem then becomes, if they cater to the laws of every country they serve content into then you have this lowest common denominator of laws EVERY user of github would have to follow. Their system is IP-based so censorship is customized depending on where you access Github from.
- teamhappy 12y ago
  > Stealing intellectual property is entirely different from censorship, and I'm disappointed to see these two things being lumped together here. The Pirate Bay is entirely different from stealing intellectual property, and I'm disappointed to see these two things being lumped together here. Also, I'd be careful throwing the word "censorship" around. What Roskomnadzor is doing here isn't terribly different from DMCA takedown notices or governments "censoring" documented child abuse.
  - tonyedgecombe 12y ago
    >>The Pirate Bay is entirely different from stealing intellectual property As someone who has their intellectual property shared by The Pirate Bay I disagree.
    - teamhappy 12y ago
      This is slightly off-topic, but still ... Compare The Pirate Bay to YouTube. An argument can be made that YouTube is the biggest distributor of pirated content, though you'd never make YouTube responsible for that. YouTube is a platform and so is TPB. Nobody would ever suggest blocking YouTube as a whole just because people use the platform to share copyrighted material — yet quite a lot of people think doing the very same thing to TPB is completely reasonable. I don't get that.
      - johnlbevan2 12y ago
        Whilst I'd agree that TPB is just a tool, the argument has some validity. It's called the PIRATE bay; they're heavily implying what this tool can be used for, and this matches its main use. YouTube often take action to block IP/Copyright infringement; TPB say they provide the tools and leave users to do with it as they will; i.e. they don't cooperate in preventing illegal usage. I agree that the tool itself shouldn't be banned, but the idea of pushing for compromise (e.g. giving recognised authorities access to view users' details in cases where illegal material's being shared) doesn't seem unfair. This way the authorities have options other than banning the tools, legitimate users don't suffer, and offending users are identified; all's good - unless you're using the tool illegally; which is fine (or at least, a different debate).
- Vaskivo 12y ago
  The Pirate Bay, by itself, does not steal intellectual property, people do. TPB is just a tool that is mostly used for that purpose. Forbidding access to it is wrong. But I understand that to tackle the piracy problem is more practical to shut down torrent sites than to go after every single pirate.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >The Pirate Bay, by itself, does not steal intellectual property, people do. TPB is just a tool that is mostly used for that purpose. Forbidding access to it is wrong. The conclusion doesn't follow in any way from the premises. Even if it doesn't "steal intellectual property" itself, why it's "wrong" to forbit access to it if "it's mostly used for that purpose"? On the oft chance that some people also download legit stuff off of it? They can do that off of any number of sites that don't also feature tons of warez and pirated movies with direct download links. A stance like "it's wrong because I believe intellectual property is wrong" is more consistent.
    - Vaskivo 12y ago
      Ok, let's follow that logic: The Pirate Bay should be banned because people can use it to steal/share intellectual property. Automobiles should be banned because people can use it to run over people. Tor should be banned bacause people can use it share child pornography with it. Scissors should be banned because people running with them can get seriously hurt.
      - jkaunisv1 12y ago
        Your logic ignores the reality of the situation. Not sure if trolling, but: People use TPB mainly to steal/share IP. People use cars mainly to get places efficiently, and occasionally by accident run people over. Nobody sets out to get hurt while running with scissors (well, maybe some episode of Jackass). Nobody except the very rare psychopath sets out to run people over in their car. Almost everybody who goes to TPB is looking to steal/share IP.
- freshflowers 12y ago
  "Intellectual property" is just an artificial construct, has little to do with actual property and most certainly can not be "stolen". I'm disappointed to see such manipulative propaganda language used here.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    You _hackers_, you're all the same ;0) [/sarcasm]
- venomsnake 12y ago
  Infringing on copyright is not theft. So its not stealing. Also the pirate bay just provides a hash ... hashing a file was still legal I think.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    "moving your finger" is still legal, that doesn't mean it's legal to pull a gun trigger and shoot someone.
ikken 12y ago
Using VPN will not change Russian laws, but GitHub not complying with the request might help Russian tech sector realize how dangerous and ridiculous the law is and trigger more pressure on government to change it.
- motters 12y ago
  Especially if there are a lot of Russian tech companies relying upon Github then that could be a useful strategy. Or it might only result in a separate Russia-only version of Github.
  - TheCraiggers 12y ago
    Of course, having lots of tech companies rely on Github cuts both ways. Yes, it might apply pressure to the Russian government but it also cuts directly into Github's finances if a significant portion of their revenue stream suddenly dries up. Besides, given how well the recent economic sanctions worked, which were created to target those closest to Putin in order to apply pressure where it matters most, I doubt a few tech companies are going to be able to change much. I admit I could be wrong here, however. I, too, wish that Github wouldn't have caved, but I can easily understand hot it might not have been feasible for them.
- johnlbevan2 12y ago
  Conversely, GitHub complying may also help Russia come to its senses. GitHub: "Hey everyone, we've got something awesome." Russia: "We don't want it." Everyone else: "We'll take it." Russia: "Hey, how come everyone's doing better than us." Everyone else: "We used the free thing; it's awesome." Russia: "дерьмо"
  - jalanb 12y ago
    Won't work: the free thing is a howto for suicide, so "Everyone else" is now dead!
    - fwn 12y ago
Cthulhu_ 12y ago
We've had a TPB block in the Netherlands for a couple of years, but it's been undone now - not all ISP's got a court order to block it (or agreed to do it right away), TPB is accessible in a few dozen ways (via proxies), and it apparently gets special treatment since a lot of other torrent sites weren't banned, which is just stupid. TL;DR, blocking torrent sites is nigh-on impossible, and if you go for more sweeping automated filtering you're in violation of net neutrality and freedom of speech. (Famously, TorrentFreak, a news site that doesn't offer any kind of file sharing services, regularly gets blocked)
thanksgiving 12y ago
> I think Putin genuinely thinks that without him Russia is doomed or something,which is a mistake.Russia can only survive if its politicians have faith in Russia's institutions, It's not about this or that guy,or it's just another dictatorship. I've heard news media report that there are elements in the Putin camp that are too nationalist. Putin has to show he's the one running the show or something like that. (I am just reporting what I read. I can't verify if this is accurate.)
ivan_gammel 12y ago
My point is that GitHub is taking down the content because of our internal politics, which is not right. Someday we will replace the government (I hope, peacefully) and get more freedom here, but if we'll allow every government to slice a piece of our global freedom, they will eat the whole pie. GH can stand against insane RKN orders, because it is community of software developers who can find workarounds. I'm asking to make the right choice.
baby 12y ago
> I'm french and piratebay is on its way to be blocked at the ISP level here. What really? I'm really not following our politic, I had no idea.
- agersant 12y ago
  http://www.numerama.com/magazine/31495-the-pirate-bay-sera-bloque-en-france-avec-ses-miroirs.html http://www.numerama.com/magazine/31495-the-pirate-bay-sera-b...
tw04 12y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. Him NOT using VPN and having a broken version of the site is FAR less likely to change Russian laws than him USING a VPN while it's blocked entirely. At least in the case of it being blocked entirely, outrage will build. With the partial blocks people don't even know what they don't know. He's ABSOLUTELY getting more freedom of speech using a VPN. It's not the amount of freedom he'd like (being able to pursue the activities without it), but it's better than nothing. When it's partially allowed, the general public is complacent. When it's outright blocked, the people who don't know how to get around the block get frustrated and complain.
- LLWM 12y ago
  Except that we know from observation that's not what happens. China blocks facebook entirely. People who want to use it use VPNs. Instead of complaining, normal people use local alternatives like weibo that are just as good and comply with local laws. Russia already uses Yandex instead of google and pikabu instead of reddit. Why not репо or whatever instead of github? Buy local.

by aikah 12y ago

javert 12y ago

Stealing intellectual property is entirely different from censorship, and I'm disappointed to see these two things being lumped together here.

seszett 12y ago
Censoring Github repositories because they provide suicide methods which is unlawful in Russia, and censoring thepiratebay because it provides access to copyrighted content which is unlawful in France, are exactly the same things. The legal reasons behind the censorship are not important here, it all basically comes down to whether Github recognizes the local law of countries it serves content to, or not.
- lsaferite 12y ago
  The bigger problem then becomes, if they cater to the laws of every country they serve content into then you have this lowest common denominator of laws EVERY user of github would have to follow. If I post suicide methods in English, would that be censored? If I post inflammatory information about Chinese or Indian politicians, would that censored? When you start censoring, where do you draw the line? When you start allowing countries to extend their jurisdiction into 'cyberspace' how could you ever expect to not fall afoul of SOME law in SOME country. Do you only extend those concessions to large countries? Ultimately it's github's decision to make in this case, but companies should have more than profit (or marketshare) in mind. I find censorship repugnant. While I understand you have to comply with the laws of a country in which you are physically located, I think that should be the extent to which you accommodate things like this.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    There's a very simple middle ground of only restricting access to unlawful materials for the users of the jurisdictions where that material is illegal. That's what github did, and that's what twitter did. The service as a whole isn't the lowest common denominator, it's just customized to your own local laws.
  - agersant 12y ago
    > The bigger problem then becomes, if they cater to the laws of every country they serve content into then you have this lowest common denominator of laws EVERY user of github would have to follow. Their system is IP-based so censorship is customized depending on where you access Github from.
teamhappy 12y ago
> Stealing intellectual property is entirely different from censorship, and I'm disappointed to see these two things being lumped together here. The Pirate Bay is entirely different from stealing intellectual property, and I'm disappointed to see these two things being lumped together here. Also, I'd be careful throwing the word "censorship" around. What Roskomnadzor is doing here isn't terribly different from DMCA takedown notices or governments "censoring" documented child abuse.
- tonyedgecombe 12y ago
  >>The Pirate Bay is entirely different from stealing intellectual property As someone who has their intellectual property shared by The Pirate Bay I disagree.
  - teamhappy 12y ago
    This is slightly off-topic, but still ... Compare The Pirate Bay to YouTube. An argument can be made that YouTube is the biggest distributor of pirated content, though you'd never make YouTube responsible for that. YouTube is a platform and so is TPB. Nobody would ever suggest blocking YouTube as a whole just because people use the platform to share copyrighted material — yet quite a lot of people think doing the very same thing to TPB is completely reasonable. I don't get that.
    - johnlbevan2 12y ago
      Whilst I'd agree that TPB is just a tool, the argument has some validity. It's called the PIRATE bay; they're heavily implying what this tool can be used for, and this matches its main use. YouTube often take action to block IP/Copyright infringement; TPB say they provide the tools and leave users to do with it as they will; i.e. they don't cooperate in preventing illegal usage. I agree that the tool itself shouldn't be banned, but the idea of pushing for compromise (e.g. giving recognised authorities access to view users' details in cases where illegal material's being shared) doesn't seem unfair. This way the authorities have options other than banning the tools, legitimate users don't suffer, and offending users are identified; all's good - unless you're using the tool illegally; which is fine (or at least, a different debate).
Vaskivo 12y ago
The Pirate Bay, by itself, does not steal intellectual property, people do. TPB is just a tool that is mostly used for that purpose. Forbidding access to it is wrong. But I understand that to tackle the piracy problem is more practical to shut down torrent sites than to go after every single pirate.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >The Pirate Bay, by itself, does not steal intellectual property, people do. TPB is just a tool that is mostly used for that purpose. Forbidding access to it is wrong. The conclusion doesn't follow in any way from the premises. Even if it doesn't "steal intellectual property" itself, why it's "wrong" to forbit access to it if "it's mostly used for that purpose"? On the oft chance that some people also download legit stuff off of it? They can do that off of any number of sites that don't also feature tons of warez and pirated movies with direct download links. A stance like "it's wrong because I believe intellectual property is wrong" is more consistent.
  - Vaskivo 12y ago
    Ok, let's follow that logic: The Pirate Bay should be banned because people can use it to steal/share intellectual property. Automobiles should be banned because people can use it to run over people. Tor should be banned bacause people can use it share child pornography with it. Scissors should be banned because people running with them can get seriously hurt.
    - jkaunisv1 12y ago
      Your logic ignores the reality of the situation. Not sure if trolling, but: People use TPB mainly to steal/share IP. People use cars mainly to get places efficiently, and occasionally by accident run people over. Nobody sets out to get hurt while running with scissors (well, maybe some episode of Jackass). Nobody except the very rare psychopath sets out to run people over in their car. Almost everybody who goes to TPB is looking to steal/share IP.
freshflowers 12y ago
"Intellectual property" is just an artificial construct, has little to do with actual property and most certainly can not be "stolen". I'm disappointed to see such manipulative propaganda language used here.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  You _hackers_, you're all the same ;0) [/sarcasm]
venomsnake 12y ago
Infringing on copyright is not theft. So its not stealing. Also the pirate bay just provides a hash ... hashing a file was still legal I think.
- LLWM 12y ago
  "moving your finger" is still legal, that doesn't mean it's legal to pull a gun trigger and shoot someone.

ikken 12y ago

Using VPN will not change Russian laws, but GitHub not complying with the request might help Russian tech sector realize how dangerous and ridiculous the law is and trigger more pressure on government to change it.

motters 12y ago
Especially if there are a lot of Russian tech companies relying upon Github then that could be a useful strategy. Or it might only result in a separate Russia-only version of Github.
- TheCraiggers 12y ago
  Of course, having lots of tech companies rely on Github cuts both ways. Yes, it might apply pressure to the Russian government but it also cuts directly into Github's finances if a significant portion of their revenue stream suddenly dries up. Besides, given how well the recent economic sanctions worked, which were created to target those closest to Putin in order to apply pressure where it matters most, I doubt a few tech companies are going to be able to change much. I admit I could be wrong here, however. I, too, wish that Github wouldn't have caved, but I can easily understand hot it might not have been feasible for them.
johnlbevan2 12y ago
Conversely, GitHub complying may also help Russia come to its senses. GitHub: "Hey everyone, we've got something awesome." Russia: "We don't want it." Everyone else: "We'll take it." Russia: "Hey, how come everyone's doing better than us." Everyone else: "We used the free thing; it's awesome." Russia: "дерьмо"
- jalanb 12y ago
  Won't work: the free thing is a howto for suicide, so "Everyone else" is now dead!
  - fwn 12y ago

Cthulhu_ 12y ago

We've had a TPB block in the Netherlands for a couple of years, but it's been undone now - not all ISP's got a court order to block it (or agreed to do it right away), TPB is accessible in a few dozen ways (via proxies), and it apparently gets special treatment since a lot of other torrent sites weren't banned, which is just stupid. TL;DR, blocking torrent sites is nigh-on impossible, and if you go for more sweeping automated filtering you're in violation of net neutrality and freedom of speech. (Famously, TorrentFreak, a news site that doesn't offer any kind of file sharing services, regularly gets blocked)

thanksgiving 12y ago

> I think Putin genuinely thinks that without him Russia is doomed or something,which is a mistake.Russia can only survive if its politicians have faith in Russia's institutions, It's not about this or that guy,or it's just another dictatorship. I've heard news media report that there are elements in the Putin camp that are too nationalist. Putin has to show he's the one running the show or something like that. (I am just reporting what I read. I can't verify if this is accurate.)

ivan_gammel 12y ago

My point is that GitHub is taking down the content because of our internal politics, which is not right. Someday we will replace the government (I hope, peacefully) and get more freedom here, but if we'll allow every government to slice a piece of our global freedom, they will eat the whole pie. GH can stand against insane RKN orders, because it is community of software developers who can find workarounds. I'm asking to make the right choice.

baby 12y ago

> I'm french and piratebay is on its way to be blocked at the ISP level here. What really? I'm really not following our politic, I had no idea.

agersant 12y ago
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/31495-the-pirate-bay-sera-bloque-en-france-avec-ses-miroirs.html http://www.numerama.com/magazine/31495-the-pirate-bay-sera-b...

tw04 12y ago

I'm not sure what your point is. Him NOT using VPN and having a broken version of the site is FAR less likely to change Russian laws than him USING a VPN while it's blocked entirely. At least in the case of it being blocked entirely, outrage will build. With the partial blocks people don't even know what they don't know. He's ABSOLUTELY getting more freedom of speech using a VPN. It's not the amount of freedom he'd like (being able to pursue the activities without it), but it's better than nothing. When it's partially allowed, the general public is complacent. When it's outright blocked, the people who don't know how to get around the block get frustrated and complain.

LLWM 12y ago
Except that we know from observation that's not what happens. China blocks facebook entirely. People who want to use it use VPNs. Instead of complaining, normal people use local alternatives like weibo that are just as good and comply with local laws. Russia already uses Yandex instead of google and pikabu instead of reddit. Why not репо or whatever instead of github? Buy local.