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Apple deleted all my songs that were _legally_ purchased from _iTunes_. What did I do deserve that? I bought a new iPad. So what happened is that I was living

Apple deleted all my songs that were _legally_ purchased from _iTunes_. What did I do deserve that? I bought a new iPad. So what happened is that I was living in Canada. I bought a bunch (maybe 30-50) songs directly from iTunes over the years. I had them on my iPad mini. Later on, I was working and living in US, so I changed the country to US and added a US credit card to my iTunes account. Everything was fine. Then, the iPad mini with Retina display (aka iPad mini 2) came out and I wanted to upgrade to it. Normally, I have nightly backups to iCloud, but since they are (unfortunately) not as thorough, I made a full local backup to my MacBook, and restored it on the new iPad mini with Retina. All the apps and settings transferred fine, but all songs were missing. When I went to "iTunes Song Purchases", it was empty, as it doesn't consider purchases I made in the Canadian iTunes Store as purchases. I know that if I remembered/knew which songs I bought, I could buy them again and it might not charge me a 2nd time, but it's like playing russian roulette - you have to confirm a purchase and if it matches, you don't pay, else you do. Plus it's a lot of work to find/remember which songs I bought. At first I was pretty unhappy about it and was gonna try to do something, but then I just gave up on it and moved on. It's not completely Apple's fault, because they have to deal with countries and having separate stores. I wish there was one global store and 1 country and 1 currency and I wouldn't have to deal with this just because I moved to new coordinates, but yeah.

wodenokoto 12y ago
I'm pretty sure if you log into the Canadian account again there will be a list of past purchases. At least there is for apps
- mcphage 12y ago
  I suspect that this is what happened—they need to log into their Canadian account, which they somehow got logged out of.
  - Major_Grooves 12y ago
    It's the same account - he changed what country his account applied to because he now has a US card. There is no Canadian account to log-in to. I guess if he tried the reverse he could lose his US purchases.
    - shurcooL 12y ago
      Yep, that's exactly it.
- danieldk 12y ago
  No, this happens if you change your country in your existing account. I moved from one country to another, changed my existing account, and poof all my purchases were gone. I could get them for free again if I knew my purchases. This worked up to a certain point. Now, if I redownload an album that I already purchased, it wants to repurchase it again (after warning that I already have it). It's a mess.
  - jonny_eh 12y ago
    You can switch the account back to Canada and get access to your old purchases. I've done it before.
    - danieldk 12y ago
      Of course I can switch back (Netherlands in my case). They could also just fix this, because it is stupid and unintuitive. And the competition supports moving across borders correctly. If rights are a problem (which seems unlikely, since I can still download it if I know what I purchased). Just give me the apps and music that they have licensed in both countries.
reedlaw 12y ago
It is Apple's fault because they could have easily defaulted to preserving all songs rather than deleting them. It took extra work for Apple programmers to add a function to iTunes that removes songs not purchased in the same region. Were they really coerced into such behavior? It's more likely that this "feature" was a selling point for record companies, not consumers. Moral of the story: check who owns software before using it.
- mcphage 12y ago
  > It's more likely that this "feature" was a selling point for record companies, not consumers. From parent: > I know that if I remembered/knew which songs I bought, I could buy them again and it might not charge me a 2nd time So if they don't charge you again, then what's the selling point for record companies?
  - fpgeek 12y ago
    The selling point is that there's enough uncertainty and complexity in the process that many (most?) people won't successfully avoid charges for re-buying music. The icing is that the mere existence of the complex, uncertain process insulates record companies from accusations that they're forcing people to re-buy music (as with the transition to CDs). Re-buying just happens to be the much more convenient option.
  - reedlaw 12y ago
    Apple can say they don't automatically copy over songs purchased in another region. Allowing you to "purchase" the songs again for free sounds like a workaround that the parent found. However you look at it it's not for the good of the customer.
    - mironathetin 12y ago
      Correct. The back door is already written in the terms and conditions. Have fun reading them. Wasn't it Steve Jobs who said, he never signs a contract that is longer than a page?
timcederman 12y ago
I have songs from both the AU and US iTunes stores - when I do a restore from iCloud backup it just asks me for my password for each account and happily downloads both. Not sure what went wrong for you.
- shurcooL 12y ago
  I have just one account. I changed it from Canadian store to US store.
Carrok 12y ago
Asking for a one-world government is a pretty absurdly extreme response to iTunes store licensing problems. I imagine the problems a one-world government would create far surpass any potential benefits you may have imagined.
- danieldk 12y ago
  The same thing happens for app purchases, it happened to my while moving country. At the same time, I did not have any problem with the Windows Store or Google Play.
  - GFischer 12y ago
    Windows Store used to be extremely bad pre-Windows 8 - I live in Uruguay and it basically didn't work unless you lied repeatedly about your location, age, etc., and required several factory resets (that was my experience with a Nokia Lumia 800). It turned me off Windows as a mobile OS, but from what you're saying, it seems they've cleaned up their act now. Edit: it seems they're still boneheaded with regards to the Xbox: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8698610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8698610
- Bud 12y ago
  That depends. Are we letting Mitch McConnell and Ted Cruz run it?
  - indymike 12y ago
    No, just the sort of people that are attracted to ruling the world.
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      So... yes.
- goblin89 12y ago
  > I imagine the problems a one-world government would create far surpass any potential benefits you may have imagined. That’s implementation-specific. Not necessarily a hypothetical one-world government must work like the government that’s running your country or mine.
threeseed 12y ago
Fully agree that Apple needs to do more to support users who work across multiple countries. I still have apps purchased with different accounts and need to enter a range of passwords everytime I do a restore. Have you tried speaking with iTunes Support. They are very helpful and can sort out your missing purchases. > It's not completely Apple's fault It's not even remotely Apple's fault. Content licenses have always and likely will always be done country by country. And seriously 1 currency ?
- aragot 12y ago
  Yes, Apple's customers are typically ones who cross boarders and have international careers.
- _pmf_ 12y ago
  > It's not even remotely Apple's fault. Because Apple clearly indicates that your iTunes items are not bought, but rented for an undetermined time. It's right there, on page 17 in the small print of the EULA, in plain sight.
eridius 12y ago
Did you try contacting iTunes customer support? In my experience they're pretty good at trying to resolve the issue. I don't know how much power they have when it comes to different country stores (i.e. whether the customer support can even see the store for a different country), but I'm sure they would have done what they could to restore your purchased music.
- shurcooL 12y ago
  I was going to at first, and I'm guessing it's likely they would've been able to assist in some way, but then I just didn't bother to. To be honest, it was easier for me to accept the loss and just move on. I don't listen to music that much anyway, and when I do, I can just stream from Spotify or YouTube.
craigmccaskill 12y ago
The very same thing happens with people moving country. Having moved from the UK to the US, I lost access to everything I'd purchased when I updated my billing details (no longer having a working UK credit card). All Apple support could do was give me a list of the software/music I was missing, I presume to make re-purchasing easier.
- hrktb 12y ago
  That's so bad. Account management has always been abyssimal. No account merging, no transfer of purchase is a part of it. I found the easiest way has always been to keep multiple accounts and switch accounts when switching stores. But when I say "easiest" it's more like "less horrible than all the other way you can get screwed" and you still have to so many battles to fight to have your content where you want.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mironathetin 12y ago
I certainly assume, it is a bug. Getting software to handle complex behaviour correctly is not easy. But that does not help. Songs are gone, money may be gone, lots of work to do, legal action may be possible, but for a few songs? Why not take this as a warning, that a company will not take good care of our property? Apple did this before, a few years ago, btw. Microsoft even closed its music store (remember the Zune?), which resulted in total loss. Cloud stories will come. The only lesson that can be learned is, we shouldn't give up control over our property, certainly not to companies who benefit from our losses. However this is implemented. Physical media for music is a way. The best sounding CDs from the early 80s cost cents only. Some even gain resale value (mfsl gold editions for example) as listeners with good taste realize, how crappy recent remasters sound. When I commented a review of the Beatles vinyl mono editions recently, another guy (a grumpy old brit, for sure) replied: 'I spit on your digital downloads' :o). Maybe that's good advice (Although it would be interesting to understand, how he wants to spit on digitial data - it is not even physically available to spit on).
- mostafah 12y ago
  > it is not even physically available to spit on Right on!
- a3n 12y ago
  > Why not take this as a warning, that a company will not take good care of our property? I think it's probably good to ask, are things like this even property at all? And if so, whose property is it really? I "bought" a movie on Vudu. It said "Buy this movie" right there on the screen. But what I really bought is a longer rental license than the normal "rent this movie" license. If Vudu goes out of business, what do I own? Nothing. If I rage-quit Vudu, what do I own? Nothing. If the ultimate rights holder objects to the "sale," a la Amazon and 1984, what do I own? Nothing. (And I don't want compensation for the lost movie/book, I want the fucking item that I supposedly "purchased.") And I can't decide to sell my movie to someone else. Like owning real estate, digital property is a bundle of rights. But with digital property, that bundle can probably be comfortably held between thumb and forefinger like a pinch of salt.
- Amezarak 12y ago
gurkendoktor 12y ago
> Plus it's a lot of work to find/remember which songs I bought. You could try looking at your billing history. It's frustrating to navigate, but I would be surprised if Apple flushed that too: http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2727 http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2727
michaelmrose 12y ago
Why didn't you just pirate the songs you had already paid for?
- collyw 12y ago
  because its illegal? Why would you pay for the songs when you could pirate them? Presumably because you want to conduct your activities legally.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    If you already paid for the song, there's absolutely nothing wrong with downloading the song in a format so that you can listen to it. In a strictly moral "money for the artist" sense. In the Netherlands, this used to be perfectly legal as well, as it should be (maybe no longer, as recently something changed about our laws concerning 'downloading').
    - collyw 12y ago
      Last time I checked, it was illegal in the UK.
e_proxus 12y ago
This is the way it is intended by Apple. I made the same experience moving to a different country and changing the "nationality" of my Apple ID. When contacting customer support about all my missing purchases, they said that this was standard procedure. It seems that Apple basically stores a country flag in your account, then everything you see and buy applies to that flag only. When you change country, you get a different "walled garden". You still somehow "own" all the content, you just can't see all of it. If you try to e.g. install an app you bought when registered in a different country Apple will give it to you for free stating that the purchase has been restored because you have already bought it. It still won't show up in the purchased items list. I suspect if one were to switch back, it would go back and show all old purchases but not the recent ones from the last region. This seems to be their current implementation which they also seem happy with. It's really sorry state, because so many people move between countries these days and this is very unintuitive and causes a lot of annoyance.
- mynameisvlad 12y ago
  > It still won't show up in the purchased items list. It does show up once you have "purchased" it for free from the new store.
bane 12y ago
No, that is Apple's fault, they have a list somewhere of all your purchases and all they have to do is make sure you can download them again.
marcosdumay 12y ago
Welcome to the DRM future. That music that you brought, you don't own it, as you also do not own those computers you are carrying on your pockets. And just wait untill people start to really apply DRM to contracts and biling, the aplications it was conceived for.

wodenokoto 12y ago

I'm pretty sure if you log into the Canadian account again there will be a list of past purchases. At least there is for apps

mcphage 12y ago
I suspect that this is what happened—they need to log into their Canadian account, which they somehow got logged out of.
- Major_Grooves 12y ago
  It's the same account - he changed what country his account applied to because he now has a US card. There is no Canadian account to log-in to. I guess if he tried the reverse he could lose his US purchases.
  - shurcooL 12y ago
    Yep, that's exactly it.
danieldk 12y ago
No, this happens if you change your country in your existing account. I moved from one country to another, changed my existing account, and poof all my purchases were gone. I could get them for free again if I knew my purchases. This worked up to a certain point. Now, if I redownload an album that I already purchased, it wants to repurchase it again (after warning that I already have it). It's a mess.
- jonny_eh 12y ago
  You can switch the account back to Canada and get access to your old purchases. I've done it before.
  - danieldk 12y ago
    Of course I can switch back (Netherlands in my case). They could also just fix this, because it is stupid and unintuitive. And the competition supports moving across borders correctly. If rights are a problem (which seems unlikely, since I can still download it if I know what I purchased). Just give me the apps and music that they have licensed in both countries.

reedlaw 12y ago

It is Apple's fault because they could have easily defaulted to preserving all songs rather than deleting them. It took extra work for Apple programmers to add a function to iTunes that removes songs not purchased in the same region. Were they really coerced into such behavior? It's more likely that this "feature" was a selling point for record companies, not consumers. Moral of the story: check who owns software before using it.

mcphage 12y ago
> It's more likely that this "feature" was a selling point for record companies, not consumers. From parent: > I know that if I remembered/knew which songs I bought, I could buy them again and it might not charge me a 2nd time So if they don't charge you again, then what's the selling point for record companies?
- fpgeek 12y ago
  The selling point is that there's enough uncertainty and complexity in the process that many (most?) people won't successfully avoid charges for re-buying music. The icing is that the mere existence of the complex, uncertain process insulates record companies from accusations that they're forcing people to re-buy music (as with the transition to CDs). Re-buying just happens to be the much more convenient option.
- reedlaw 12y ago
  Apple can say they don't automatically copy over songs purchased in another region. Allowing you to "purchase" the songs again for free sounds like a workaround that the parent found. However you look at it it's not for the good of the customer.
  - mironathetin 12y ago
    Correct. The back door is already written in the terms and conditions. Have fun reading them. Wasn't it Steve Jobs who said, he never signs a contract that is longer than a page?

timcederman 12y ago

I have songs from both the AU and US iTunes stores - when I do a restore from iCloud backup it just asks me for my password for each account and happily downloads both. Not sure what went wrong for you.

shurcooL 12y ago
I have just one account. I changed it from Canadian store to US store.

Carrok 12y ago

Asking for a one-world government is a pretty absurdly extreme response to iTunes store licensing problems. I imagine the problems a one-world government would create far surpass any potential benefits you may have imagined.

danieldk 12y ago
The same thing happens for app purchases, it happened to my while moving country. At the same time, I did not have any problem with the Windows Store or Google Play.
- GFischer 12y ago
  Windows Store used to be extremely bad pre-Windows 8 - I live in Uruguay and it basically didn't work unless you lied repeatedly about your location, age, etc., and required several factory resets (that was my experience with a Nokia Lumia 800). It turned me off Windows as a mobile OS, but from what you're saying, it seems they've cleaned up their act now. Edit: it seems they're still boneheaded with regards to the Xbox: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8698610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8698610
Bud 12y ago
That depends. Are we letting Mitch McConnell and Ted Cruz run it?
- indymike 12y ago
  No, just the sort of people that are attracted to ruling the world.
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    So... yes.
goblin89 12y ago
> I imagine the problems a one-world government would create far surpass any potential benefits you may have imagined. That’s implementation-specific. Not necessarily a hypothetical one-world government must work like the government that’s running your country or mine.

threeseed 12y ago

Fully agree that Apple needs to do more to support users who work across multiple countries. I still have apps purchased with different accounts and need to enter a range of passwords everytime I do a restore. Have you tried speaking with iTunes Support. They are very helpful and can sort out your missing purchases. > It's not completely Apple's fault It's not even remotely Apple's fault. Content licenses have always and likely will always be done country by country. And seriously 1 currency ?

aragot 12y ago
Yes, Apple's customers are typically ones who cross boarders and have international careers.
_pmf_ 12y ago
> It's not even remotely Apple's fault. Because Apple clearly indicates that your iTunes items are not bought, but rented for an undetermined time. It's right there, on page 17 in the small print of the EULA, in plain sight.

eridius 12y ago

Did you try contacting iTunes customer support? In my experience they're pretty good at trying to resolve the issue. I don't know how much power they have when it comes to different country stores (i.e. whether the customer support can even see the store for a different country), but I'm sure they would have done what they could to restore your purchased music.

shurcooL 12y ago
I was going to at first, and I'm guessing it's likely they would've been able to assist in some way, but then I just didn't bother to. To be honest, it was easier for me to accept the loss and just move on. I don't listen to music that much anyway, and when I do, I can just stream from Spotify or YouTube.

craigmccaskill 12y ago

The very same thing happens with people moving country. Having moved from the UK to the US, I lost access to everything I'd purchased when I updated my billing details (no longer having a working UK credit card). All Apple support could do was give me a list of the software/music I was missing, I presume to make re-purchasing easier.

hrktb 12y ago
That's so bad. Account management has always been abyssimal. No account merging, no transfer of purchase is a part of it. I found the easiest way has always been to keep multiple accounts and switch accounts when switching stores. But when I say "easiest" it's more like "less horrible than all the other way you can get screwed" and you still have to so many battles to fight to have your content where you want.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

mironathetin 12y ago

I certainly assume, it is a bug. Getting software to handle complex behaviour correctly is not easy. But that does not help. Songs are gone, money may be gone, lots of work to do, legal action may be possible, but for a few songs? Why not take this as a warning, that a company will not take good care of our property? Apple did this before, a few years ago, btw. Microsoft even closed its music store (remember the Zune?), which resulted in total loss. Cloud stories will come. The only lesson that can be learned is, we shouldn't give up control over our property, certainly not to companies who benefit from our losses. However this is implemented. Physical media for music is a way. The best sounding CDs from the early 80s cost cents only. Some even gain resale value (mfsl gold editions for example) as listeners with good taste realize, how crappy recent remasters sound. When I commented a review of the Beatles vinyl mono editions recently, another guy (a grumpy old brit, for sure) replied: 'I spit on your digital downloads' :o). Maybe that's good advice (Although it would be interesting to understand, how he wants to spit on digitial data - it is not even physically available to spit on).

mostafah 12y ago
> it is not even physically available to spit on Right on!
a3n 12y ago
> Why not take this as a warning, that a company will not take good care of our property? I think it's probably good to ask, are things like this even property at all? And if so, whose property is it really? I "bought" a movie on Vudu. It said "Buy this movie" right there on the screen. But what I really bought is a longer rental license than the normal "rent this movie" license. If Vudu goes out of business, what do I own? Nothing. If I rage-quit Vudu, what do I own? Nothing. If the ultimate rights holder objects to the "sale," a la Amazon and 1984, what do I own? Nothing. (And I don't want compensation for the lost movie/book, I want the fucking item that I supposedly "purchased.") And I can't decide to sell my movie to someone else. Like owning real estate, digital property is a bundle of rights. But with digital property, that bundle can probably be comfortably held between thumb and forefinger like a pinch of salt.
Amezarak 12y ago

gurkendoktor 12y ago

> Plus it's a lot of work to find/remember which songs I bought. You could try looking at your billing history. It's frustrating to navigate, but I would be surprised if Apple flushed that too: http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2727 http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2727

michaelmrose 12y ago

Why didn't you just pirate the songs you had already paid for?

collyw 12y ago
because its illegal? Why would you pay for the songs when you could pirate them? Presumably because you want to conduct your activities legally.
- tripzilch 12y ago
  If you already paid for the song, there's absolutely nothing wrong with downloading the song in a format so that you can listen to it. In a strictly moral "money for the artist" sense. In the Netherlands, this used to be perfectly legal as well, as it should be (maybe no longer, as recently something changed about our laws concerning 'downloading').
  - collyw 12y ago
    Last time I checked, it was illegal in the UK.

e_proxus 12y ago

This is the way it is intended by Apple. I made the same experience moving to a different country and changing the "nationality" of my Apple ID. When contacting customer support about all my missing purchases, they said that this was standard procedure. It seems that Apple basically stores a country flag in your account, then everything you see and buy applies to that flag only. When you change country, you get a different "walled garden". You still somehow "own" all the content, you just can't see all of it. If you try to e.g. install an app you bought when registered in a different country Apple will give it to you for free stating that the purchase has been restored because you have already bought it. It still won't show up in the purchased items list. I suspect if one were to switch back, it would go back and show all old purchases but not the recent ones from the last region. This seems to be their current implementation which they also seem happy with. It's really sorry state, because so many people move between countries these days and this is very unintuitive and causes a lot of annoyance.

mynameisvlad 12y ago
> It still won't show up in the purchased items list. It does show up once you have "purchased" it for free from the new store.

bane 12y ago

No, that is Apple's fault, they have a list somewhere of all your purchases and all they have to do is make sure you can download them again.

marcosdumay 12y ago

Welcome to the DRM future. That music that you brought, you don't own it, as you also do not own those computers you are carrying on your pockets. And just wait untill people start to really apply DRM to contracts and biling, the aplications it was conceived for.