7 ms·

I'm the lead engineer and founder of http://OfferLetter.io http://OfferLetter.io - We guide engineers (and designers and PMs) by helping them navigate the "last

I'm the lead engineer and founder of http://OfferLetter.io http://OfferLetter.io - We guide engineers (and designers and PMs) by helping them navigate the "last-mile" - that is, the offer selection/negotiation process - in exchange for a fee from the candidates. (We got brief shoutout in the article along with Dave and our friends at HackMatch) I want to specifically address 1) Sam Altman and 2) Chris Fry's respective points about the problems with regards to models that align with the candidate more directly (like ours): 1) Much respect for Sam, but he's dead wrong with respect to the 'negative selection' problem - yes, good people have no problem finding work, but the key problem is that the opportunity cost remains phenomenally high for suboptimal decision making. We have actually worked with outstanding engineers who are at YC portfolio companies, simply because they wouldn't have known how to get what they're worth otherwise and push for more. And Sam is missing the point entirely with regards to worth - people in the industry are not getting paid based on their merit - not at all. The gender wage gap is perhaps the most stark example of this, but we see it, starkly, along many other demographic slices as well. 2) With respect to Chris Fry's comments - I was actually in Twitter's eng org when Chris raised the internal engineering referral bonus from 2.5k to 10k because the company wasn't getting the volume of quality people it wanted. Chris is a really great guy, but I find his point about "[at] Twitter, you get the best résumés on your desk already [via recruiting department, referrals, etc]" somewhat misleading - there's no way he would have raised the referral bonus as sharply as he did if he really felt that. In fact, there wouldn't have to be an referral bonus structure at all. Twitter is wonderful, and I loved my time there, but even there we weren't getting all the high-quality people we wanted. [#plug: check out http://OfferLetter.io http://OfferLetter.io - we all deserve to get what we're worth]

forrestthewoods 12y ago
I hope you guys are working with recruiters to find out compensation ranges. I had a friend who once responded to a recruiter "hey, how about you come work for me". It's a lot easier to ask for more salary, stock, or benefits when you have inside information on what each company is willing to offer for each position!
- mallyvai 12y ago
  We have a range of methods for gathering compensation range information. The more interesting question is: How can you actually execute on a good negotiation plan? There is an enormous psychological component to this, and just knowing market rates and ranges for various companies is enormously important, but is only part of the problem (otherwise WealthFront and Glassdoor would have solved this problem already). Getting the right counteroffers and navigating the personal psychology here are enormously important too. That's where we differentiate ourselves with our expertise and guidance :-)
chrisbennet 12y ago
I would think that people hiring would like potential hires to be unrepresented. An un-represented developer is going to be cheaper.
- mallyvai 12y ago
  Well, yes, for the immediate set of transactions, it's entirely the case that companies are incentivized to dissuade candidates from reaching out to us. This doesn't mean the statements come from a bad place, just a particular viewpoint - it's why I wanted to point them out specifically. :-)
1337biz 12y ago
From my experience in the entertainment industry I always wish I could hire a manager to represent myself in negotiations with employers/bosses/etc - even if this would mean having to pay a 15-20% management fee on my salary. But I just can't convince my boss to negotiate with my agent... You can train and optimize your negotiation skills all you want, but in my opinion it is extremely valuable to separate the "talent" from the "money". Top performers, no matter in what industry, are usually extremely passionated about their craft and undervalue the monetary value they can bring to the table. Having a third party represent them puts a "neutral" monetary evaluation on them. Good management allows a much more strategic long-term development that focuses on value building and not just opportunity hopping.
- amelius 12y ago
  > From my experience in the entertainment industry Well, from experience in the music industry, it seems that the person doing the hard work (the artist) most often is on the bad end of the deal, while all the middle-men are laughing their way to the bank. I'm just saying that analogies are not always to be relied upon. (Also, a 15-20% management fee is totally not reasonable, except if it is time-limited.)
  - Ntrails 12y ago
    I would expect to see a per-negotiation fee structure along the lines of MAX(30% of the outcome in excess of expectation, 3% expected salary) - but obviously where the actual percentages are properly reasoned.
  - 1337biz 12y ago
    My experience with self-managed artists is quite negative - but this is entertainment industry related. Just the fact that there is somebody you can call during the day and get a definitive answer on a request, and who makes sure the talent is showing up and delivering on the negotiated the deal, is securing them deals they otherwise would never get. This is most certainly not something that one would classify as "hard work" but it is super valuable when "talent" meets "corporate".
  - 12y ago
spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
requireing fee from the candidates isn't that ilegal?
toolz 12y ago
While I don't disagree with you, I did want to point out you've given some bad information. [In the tech industry there is no clear case for a gender wage gap when we're talking about merit based salary.](http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/03/20/women-are-now-paid-as-much-as-men-in-tech-study-finds/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/03/20/women-are-...)
- jurassic 12y ago
  The difference in starting salaries received by relatively inexperienced women coming out of Hackbright ($80k/yr) vs inexperienced graduates of the coed but mostly male AppAcademy/HackReactor/etc ($100k+) seems to suggest gender discrimination in tech salaries is definitely a thing.
- smt88 12y ago
  There are problems with that survey. First, it was conducted by Dice, which is a "career hub" that is going to have some sort of subset of overall users. It wasn't a group that was carefully selected to represent the overall market. It's not a scientific survey. Second, these are for "tech positions", not engineer positions. No technical job is even on the list for women! Third, this survey only counts employed people. What about all the women who can't find work in their field? Given the fact that engineering is not a top-five "tech job" for women, I'd wager that many female engineers have trouble finding pure engineering jobs and must find something that people believe they're qualified for. On a semi-related note, I strongly recommend that everyone on HN listen to this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...
anonymous30x 12y ago
I'm one of the developers Mr. Altman is talking about and have recently rejected an offer from 10x. I have to agree with Mr. Altman's point of view: I'm making 1.5 - 2.0 times the average developer's salary already. Speaking with 10x, they told me that their average project was just 1 - 2 months long and that I should treat their service as a supplement to my income rather than relying on them to keep me booked. The problem is they charge 15% of ALL of my income for that privilege and don't make any guarantees. Why should I pay them over $2k a month for them to possibly make me new sales when I'm already capable of keeping myself booked the majority of the time? The whole thing reeked of predation to me. If they're really able to provide more value than they take from me, then they should only be charging me a commission on the sales they bring in.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Wait, did you just say 10x wants a 15% slice of your gross revenue regardless of whether they source it or you do?
  - Implicated 12y ago
    That took me by surprise as well...
  - anonymous30x 12y ago
    Precisely.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      What was the logic they gave for this (crazy-seeming) ask?
      - anonymous30x 12y ago
        Because that's how it's done in the entertainment industry, apparently.
Balgair 12y ago
A portion of these jobs that are very left out are the security world jobs. Yes twitter is a great company and has many interesting challenges. Yes it will garner a subset of 10xish people. Yes, they have a lot of great resumes. But the DoE, CIA, and NSA will always pay better, have greater challenges, and have a much wider net to cast than twitter, The Zuck, or Google ever will. Why? Capitalism doesn't work at the end of tank barrels. It not google that twitter is really competing with, its the Air Force and DoD. Also, thank you very much for pointing out the gender wage gaps here. It is an obvious and clear example of sexism distorting market capitalism.

forrestthewoods 12y ago

I hope you guys are working with recruiters to find out compensation ranges. I had a friend who once responded to a recruiter "hey, how about you come work for me". It's a lot easier to ask for more salary, stock, or benefits when you have inside information on what each company is willing to offer for each position!

mallyvai 12y ago
We have a range of methods for gathering compensation range information. The more interesting question is: How can you actually execute on a good negotiation plan? There is an enormous psychological component to this, and just knowing market rates and ranges for various companies is enormously important, but is only part of the problem (otherwise WealthFront and Glassdoor would have solved this problem already). Getting the right counteroffers and navigating the personal psychology here are enormously important too. That's where we differentiate ourselves with our expertise and guidance :-)

chrisbennet 12y ago

I would think that people hiring would like potential hires to be unrepresented. An un-represented developer is going to be cheaper.

mallyvai 12y ago
Well, yes, for the immediate set of transactions, it's entirely the case that companies are incentivized to dissuade candidates from reaching out to us. This doesn't mean the statements come from a bad place, just a particular viewpoint - it's why I wanted to point them out specifically. :-)

1337biz 12y ago

From my experience in the entertainment industry I always wish I could hire a manager to represent myself in negotiations with employers/bosses/etc - even if this would mean having to pay a 15-20% management fee on my salary. But I just can't convince my boss to negotiate with my agent... You can train and optimize your negotiation skills all you want, but in my opinion it is extremely valuable to separate the "talent" from the "money". Top performers, no matter in what industry, are usually extremely passionated about their craft and undervalue the monetary value they can bring to the table. Having a third party represent them puts a "neutral" monetary evaluation on them. Good management allows a much more strategic long-term development that focuses on value building and not just opportunity hopping.

amelius 12y ago
> From my experience in the entertainment industry Well, from experience in the music industry, it seems that the person doing the hard work (the artist) most often is on the bad end of the deal, while all the middle-men are laughing their way to the bank. I'm just saying that analogies are not always to be relied upon. (Also, a 15-20% management fee is totally not reasonable, except if it is time-limited.)
- Ntrails 12y ago
  I would expect to see a per-negotiation fee structure along the lines of MAX(30% of the outcome in excess of expectation, 3% expected salary) - but obviously where the actual percentages are properly reasoned.
- 1337biz 12y ago
  My experience with self-managed artists is quite negative - but this is entertainment industry related. Just the fact that there is somebody you can call during the day and get a definitive answer on a request, and who makes sure the talent is showing up and delivering on the negotiated the deal, is securing them deals they otherwise would never get. This is most certainly not something that one would classify as "hard work" but it is super valuable when "talent" meets "corporate".
- 12y ago

spacecowboy_lon 12y ago

requireing fee from the candidates isn't that ilegal?

toolz 12y ago

While I don't disagree with you, I did want to point out you've given some bad information. [In the tech industry there is no clear case for a gender wage gap when we're talking about merit based salary.](http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/03/20/women-are-now-paid-as-much-as-men-in-tech-study-finds/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/03/20/women-are-...)

jurassic 12y ago
The difference in starting salaries received by relatively inexperienced women coming out of Hackbright ($80k/yr) vs inexperienced graduates of the coed but mostly male AppAcademy/HackReactor/etc ($100k+) seems to suggest gender discrimination in tech salaries is definitely a thing.
smt88 12y ago
There are problems with that survey. First, it was conducted by Dice, which is a "career hub" that is going to have some sort of subset of overall users. It wasn't a group that was carefully selected to represent the overall market. It's not a scientific survey. Second, these are for "tech positions", not engineer positions. No technical job is even on the list for women! Third, this survey only counts employed people. What about all the women who can't find work in their field? Given the fact that engineering is not a top-five "tech job" for women, I'd wager that many female engineers have trouble finding pure engineering jobs and must find something that people believe they're qualified for. On a semi-related note, I strongly recommend that everyone on HN listen to this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...

anonymous30x 12y ago

I'm one of the developers Mr. Altman is talking about and have recently rejected an offer from 10x. I have to agree with Mr. Altman's point of view: I'm making 1.5 - 2.0 times the average developer's salary already. Speaking with 10x, they told me that their average project was just 1 - 2 months long and that I should treat their service as a supplement to my income rather than relying on them to keep me booked. The problem is they charge 15% of ALL of my income for that privilege and don't make any guarantees. Why should I pay them over $2k a month for them to possibly make me new sales when I'm already capable of keeping myself booked the majority of the time? The whole thing reeked of predation to me. If they're really able to provide more value than they take from me, then they should only be charging me a commission on the sales they bring in.

tptacek 12y ago
Wait, did you just say 10x wants a 15% slice of your gross revenue regardless of whether they source it or you do?
- Implicated 12y ago
  That took me by surprise as well...
- anonymous30x 12y ago
  Precisely.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    What was the logic they gave for this (crazy-seeming) ask?
    - anonymous30x 12y ago
      Because that's how it's done in the entertainment industry, apparently.

Balgair 12y ago

A portion of these jobs that are very left out are the security world jobs. Yes twitter is a great company and has many interesting challenges. Yes it will garner a subset of 10xish people. Yes, they have a lot of great resumes. But the DoE, CIA, and NSA will always pay better, have greater challenges, and have a much wider net to cast than twitter, The Zuck, or Google ever will. Why? Capitalism doesn't work at the end of tank barrels. It not google that twitter is really competing with, its the Air Force and DoD. Also, thank you very much for pointing out the gender wage gaps here. It is an obvious and clear example of sexism distorting market capitalism.