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> express my love through marriage You can express your love through marriage: marry a woman. "Homosexual marriage" is an oxymoron. To the extent heterosexua

> express my love through marriage You can express your love through marriage: marry a woman. "Homosexual marriage" is an oxymoron. To the extent heterosexual marriage gets special legal benefits over other partnerships, I'm in favor of equalizing all that. But gays can't "marry" any more than two elderly widowed sisters living together can marry. It's not the same thing. Your choice of phrase "express my love through marriage" gets right down to the heart of it. Marriage is not for an expression of love. It is a social institution of special standing. It is for creating the next generation. It is not for "expressing love" or "finding happiness."

jetsnoc 17y ago
I can't express my love through marriage TO A WOMAN because it is not physically or emotionally possible for me to love a woman. This is not equality it's saying "seperate .. but equal." This creates too much room for legal ambiguity. You may think it is a "choice" but it simply is not. This should be simple for you to understand since you didn't choose your gender attraction either. Science agrees. It has been scientifically proven that the brain and the hypothalamus is gendered within the first trimester of a pregnancy and that the gendered brain may not match the body's gender due to androstendione, a stress hormone similar to testosterone that binds to receptors that testosterone should have bound to creating a female hypothalamus in a male body, creating a third gender class - males, females and homosexuals. Why did God give me a larger hypothalamus? Why did God create me as a gay male? Why does man continue to persecute a minority gender class God created? Of course I don't expect you to have the capacity to question the legitimacy of your prejudices; A quick read of your other comments on HN showed me that you're also racist..
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Voted you down for the last sentence, which ruined an otherwise measured and reasonable response.
  - earl 17y ago
    Yet is also true.
    - jibiki 17y ago
      There is a time and a place for ad hominem arguments, but this is not it.
- axod 17y ago
  >> "A quick read of your other comments on HN showed me that your also racist.." Yeah that's won the argument. Why not label people as communist or socialist next? No one is really persecuting you. Paying a bit extra tax/insurance is hardly in the same category as what Turing had to endure with chemical castration etc. Life is about discrimination. I'm discriminated against because I didn't go to a posh school. Because I'm not a woman. Because I wear glasses. Because I'm not big+muscular. Because I don't know any famous people. Retirement age is 5 years older for men than it is for women. Men die earlier than women. Either you can whine about it, or you can get on and enjoy life. Life is far too short to spend it trying to change the minds of people who don't want their minds changed. Having said that, I have no clue why this is on hacker news. Flagged. Just my 2c, YMMV
  - jules 17y ago
    > Paying a bit extra tax/insurance is hardly in the same category as what Turing had to endure with chemical castration etc. That there exist other people who are worse off than you doesn't mean that you're treated fairly, or that you shouldn't try to do something about it. > I'm discriminated against because I didn't go to a posh school. Because I'm not a woman. Because I wear glasses. Because I'm not big+muscular. Because I don't know any famous people. You can change some things about you: work out, wear contact lenses, etc. You can't change your sex (or you probably wouldn't want to), so you can try to change your environment. This is the situation he's in.
- derefr 17y ago
  He's right, but probably not for the reason he thinks he is. There is no reason the church should be forced to marry homosexuals if that is not part of its religious theory; the church is a private institution and can do as it pleases. Likewise, however, there is no reason that the state should codify "marriage" under the law, homosexual or otherwise. The proper state of affairs is fully-legally-robust civil unions for all, with some backed religiously, and some not. Trying to make the church recognize gays in order to get them rights under the state is just the absolutely wrong order to do things. And I apologize in advance for my continuation to this inanity, because this entire thread is so completely the opposite of Hacker News.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    The state makes a distinction between 'marriage' and 'civil union' right now, I don't think that the gay movement would be too upset to be equal before the law and let the archaic church sort out if it wants to move in to the 21st century or become irrelevant at some point. Flagged the thread btw, this is getting out of hand.
- kingkongrevenge 17y ago
  I am explaining to you that you are trying to call a steak a cake. The biological nature of your preference is irrelevant. You want to redefine marriage, but by the current definition there is no inequality. You are as free to marry as anyone else. Your desired redefinition is stupid for two reasons: 1) The obvious biological and social dynamics of heterosexual reproduction. 2) The entire first world has shared a common definition of marriage whereas those places with weirder norms are all shit holes. It's a proven institution and fucking with it is a dangerous slippery slope. This is not about mean religious crazies who want to make you sad. There's a lot more at stake when you go tinkering with this stuff.
  - earl 17y ago
    "The law, in its majestic impartiality, forbids the rich and poor alike to sleep under the bridges of Paris"
    - kingkongrevenge 17y ago
      I hope you just wanted to turn a phrase and can actually see how facile that is.
      - tlrobinson 17y ago
        And that (this entire thread) is why we try to keep politics and such off Hacker News.
  - qw 17y ago
    I think you need to distinguish between the religious/cultural definition of marriage, and the legal definition. I agree that we can't force priests to marry in the name of their God, because that's a matter of faith. That decision should be made by each individual church. But it is also not fair to impose our cultural definitions on others when it comes to legal status. It seems strange that we give non-christian marriages the same status, while homosexuals in the same situation are treated differently. It is also false that the definition of a marriage is the same in the "first world". Other countries have managed to separate the religious definition of marriage from the legal definition. I'm not gay, and I have to admit that I look another way when two men kiss. But that doesn't mean I don't respect their situation, and want to give them the same rights as myself.
- anatoly 17y ago
  >Science agrees. It has been scientifically proven that the brain and the hypothalamus is gendered within the first trimester of a pregnancy and that the gendered brain may not match the body's gender due to androstendione, a stress hormone similar to testosterone that binds to receptors that testosterone should have bound to creating a female hypothalamus in a male body, creating a third gender class - males, females and homosexuals. I believe this has been discredited long ago. Some googling finds "Although clear sex differences were evident, Swaab, Gooren and Hofman (1992) found no differences in the size of the SDN of the preoptic anterior hypothalamus between "gay" and "heterosexual" men, contrary to what the androgen underexposure theory predicts. Dorner's (1988) contention that "gay" men have a female hypothalamus was not upheld." http://books.google.com/books?id=PzDKr-qCdTAC&pg=PA127 http://books.google.com/books?id=PzDKr-qCdTAC&pg=PA127 The article referenced is http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0...
- iuguy 17y ago
  Why does the fact that he has an opposing view on a given subject make him prejudiced? Is it not possible for someone to hold an opposing view on a subject such as Gay Marriage (or God, or whatever) yet still be perfectly fine with Gay people (or God-loving folk, or whatever)?
dkokelley 17y ago
I have a feeling this comment will not go over well with the community here, so I am going to attempt to get a more descriptive response. Your response states that by definition, marriage requires opposing sexes. You can't 'marry' someone of the same sex by definition. That's a legal definition. A social definition could be different, and I think the issue stems from the fact that the social definition and the legal definition are conflicting. Please explain how you define what marriage should be, and your justification for that definition.
- ensignavenger 17y ago
  Okay, I'll take your challenge. Social Definition should be: A Union between a Man and a Woman. Justification: Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His Eternal Plan. (Source: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html) Now, that is my view, based on careful study and thoughtful inquiry and seeking after truth. I recognize that others may not understand this the same way. I value their individual perspectives and respect and love them still the same. I also recognize that there is a difference between Eternal Marriage covenants and earthly contracts which have no sway in the eternities. Therefore when it comes to the discussion of legal matters, we must look deeper into what benefits legal recognition of marriage has to society. I put forth that civil marriage is based on the importance of gender as an aspect of ones identity and personal attributes and that a union between a man and a woman allows for great synergy and creates the appropriate corner stone for families- and the raising of children. The synergy between male and female is essential to the benefit of marriage to society and the appropriate rearing of children. I love and respect those who are attracted to the same sex, and I support their legal right to choose their own lifestyle. However, I cannot support a change in the legal structure of the family to cater to their individual tastes and desires, nor can I personally condone action that is inconsistent with the commandments of the Almighty God of Israel.
jacquesm 17y ago
You are looking at this through a very American lens. There are plenty of countries in the world where gays can marry: - Netherlands (one of the few things we did right, historically) - Belgium - Spain - Canada - South Africa - Norway - Sweden Coming soon: - Nepal (from the wikipedia article). So, Homosexual marriage is an oxymoron only in those places that don't allow it, and in those places that do allow it there have been no major outbreaks of anything to date, so stop being so afraid, live and let live. Being able to marry the one you love is an essential part of the freedoms that should be accorded all human beings, including those that love others of the same sex as their own.
- hachiya 17y ago
  No, they simply redefined "marriage" to suit the political climate. > Being able to marry the one you love is an essential part > of the freedoms that should be accorded all human beings, > including those that love others of the same sex as their > own. Marriage means what it traditionally means. Redefining it to mean a generic "love" would also mean that kingkongrevenge's example of two elderly sisters could marry, or a mother can marry her son, or a man can marry his horse (provided the horse neighs in consent). Redefining the word "marriage" to meet the whims of a minority doesn't actually change what a true marriage is.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    So, how do you think we got to those traditions in the first place ? Traditions change over time, the time for change has come, since we are now societally at a level advanced enough to recognize that when we say that everybody is equal before the law we actually should mean it. Two elderly sisters marrying is fine with me, it doesn't bother me in the least what two elderly sisters are up to. A mother marrying her son has connotations that society will probably never be comfortable with, even though in some countries it actually is legal. A man marrying his horse is a funny example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage But personally I'd probably limit it to transactions between consenting humans. My personal opinion on all this is that consenting people should be free to do whatever they want as long as it does not directly harm others. Mental harm because they 'degrade' what you can do by doing it too does not count.

jetsnoc 17y ago

I can't express my love through marriage TO A WOMAN because it is not physically or emotionally possible for me to love a woman. This is not equality it's saying "seperate .. but equal." This creates too much room for legal ambiguity. You may think it is a "choice" but it simply is not. This should be simple for you to understand since you didn't choose your gender attraction either. Science agrees. It has been scientifically proven that the brain and the hypothalamus is gendered within the first trimester of a pregnancy and that the gendered brain may not match the body's gender due to androstendione, a stress hormone similar to testosterone that binds to receptors that testosterone should have bound to creating a female hypothalamus in a male body, creating a third gender class - males, females and homosexuals. Why did God give me a larger hypothalamus? Why did God create me as a gay male? Why does man continue to persecute a minority gender class God created? Of course I don't expect you to have the capacity to question the legitimacy of your prejudices; A quick read of your other comments on HN showed me that you're also racist..

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Voted you down for the last sentence, which ruined an otherwise measured and reasonable response.
- earl 17y ago
  Yet is also true.
  - jibiki 17y ago
    There is a time and a place for ad hominem arguments, but this is not it.
axod 17y ago
>> "A quick read of your other comments on HN showed me that your also racist.." Yeah that's won the argument. Why not label people as communist or socialist next? No one is really persecuting you. Paying a bit extra tax/insurance is hardly in the same category as what Turing had to endure with chemical castration etc. Life is about discrimination. I'm discriminated against because I didn't go to a posh school. Because I'm not a woman. Because I wear glasses. Because I'm not big+muscular. Because I don't know any famous people. Retirement age is 5 years older for men than it is for women. Men die earlier than women. Either you can whine about it, or you can get on and enjoy life. Life is far too short to spend it trying to change the minds of people who don't want their minds changed. Having said that, I have no clue why this is on hacker news. Flagged. Just my 2c, YMMV
- jules 17y ago
  > Paying a bit extra tax/insurance is hardly in the same category as what Turing had to endure with chemical castration etc. That there exist other people who are worse off than you doesn't mean that you're treated fairly, or that you shouldn't try to do something about it. > I'm discriminated against because I didn't go to a posh school. Because I'm not a woman. Because I wear glasses. Because I'm not big+muscular. Because I don't know any famous people. You can change some things about you: work out, wear contact lenses, etc. You can't change your sex (or you probably wouldn't want to), so you can try to change your environment. This is the situation he's in.
derefr 17y ago
He's right, but probably not for the reason he thinks he is. There is no reason the church should be forced to marry homosexuals if that is not part of its religious theory; the church is a private institution and can do as it pleases. Likewise, however, there is no reason that the state should codify "marriage" under the law, homosexual or otherwise. The proper state of affairs is fully-legally-robust civil unions for all, with some backed religiously, and some not. Trying to make the church recognize gays in order to get them rights under the state is just the absolutely wrong order to do things. And I apologize in advance for my continuation to this inanity, because this entire thread is so completely the opposite of Hacker News.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  The state makes a distinction between 'marriage' and 'civil union' right now, I don't think that the gay movement would be too upset to be equal before the law and let the archaic church sort out if it wants to move in to the 21st century or become irrelevant at some point. Flagged the thread btw, this is getting out of hand.
kingkongrevenge 17y ago
I am explaining to you that you are trying to call a steak a cake. The biological nature of your preference is irrelevant. You want to redefine marriage, but by the current definition there is no inequality. You are as free to marry as anyone else. Your desired redefinition is stupid for two reasons: 1) The obvious biological and social dynamics of heterosexual reproduction. 2) The entire first world has shared a common definition of marriage whereas those places with weirder norms are all shit holes. It's a proven institution and fucking with it is a dangerous slippery slope. This is not about mean religious crazies who want to make you sad. There's a lot more at stake when you go tinkering with this stuff.
- earl 17y ago
  "The law, in its majestic impartiality, forbids the rich and poor alike to sleep under the bridges of Paris"
  - kingkongrevenge 17y ago
    I hope you just wanted to turn a phrase and can actually see how facile that is.
    - tlrobinson 17y ago
      And that (this entire thread) is why we try to keep politics and such off Hacker News.
- qw 17y ago
  I think you need to distinguish between the religious/cultural definition of marriage, and the legal definition. I agree that we can't force priests to marry in the name of their God, because that's a matter of faith. That decision should be made by each individual church. But it is also not fair to impose our cultural definitions on others when it comes to legal status. It seems strange that we give non-christian marriages the same status, while homosexuals in the same situation are treated differently. It is also false that the definition of a marriage is the same in the "first world". Other countries have managed to separate the religious definition of marriage from the legal definition. I'm not gay, and I have to admit that I look another way when two men kiss. But that doesn't mean I don't respect their situation, and want to give them the same rights as myself.
anatoly 17y ago
>Science agrees. It has been scientifically proven that the brain and the hypothalamus is gendered within the first trimester of a pregnancy and that the gendered brain may not match the body's gender due to androstendione, a stress hormone similar to testosterone that binds to receptors that testosterone should have bound to creating a female hypothalamus in a male body, creating a third gender class - males, females and homosexuals. I believe this has been discredited long ago. Some googling finds "Although clear sex differences were evident, Swaab, Gooren and Hofman (1992) found no differences in the size of the SDN of the preoptic anterior hypothalamus between "gay" and "heterosexual" men, contrary to what the androgen underexposure theory predicts. Dorner's (1988) contention that "gay" men have a female hypothalamus was not upheld." http://books.google.com/books?id=PzDKr-qCdTAC&pg=PA127 http://books.google.com/books?id=PzDKr-qCdTAC&pg=PA127 The article referenced is http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0...
iuguy 17y ago
Why does the fact that he has an opposing view on a given subject make him prejudiced? Is it not possible for someone to hold an opposing view on a subject such as Gay Marriage (or God, or whatever) yet still be perfectly fine with Gay people (or God-loving folk, or whatever)?

dkokelley 17y ago

I have a feeling this comment will not go over well with the community here, so I am going to attempt to get a more descriptive response. Your response states that by definition, marriage requires opposing sexes. You can't 'marry' someone of the same sex by definition. That's a legal definition. A social definition could be different, and I think the issue stems from the fact that the social definition and the legal definition are conflicting. Please explain how you define what marriage should be, and your justification for that definition.

ensignavenger 17y ago
Okay, I'll take your challenge. Social Definition should be: A Union between a Man and a Woman. Justification: Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His Eternal Plan. (Source: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html) Now, that is my view, based on careful study and thoughtful inquiry and seeking after truth. I recognize that others may not understand this the same way. I value their individual perspectives and respect and love them still the same. I also recognize that there is a difference between Eternal Marriage covenants and earthly contracts which have no sway in the eternities. Therefore when it comes to the discussion of legal matters, we must look deeper into what benefits legal recognition of marriage has to society. I put forth that civil marriage is based on the importance of gender as an aspect of ones identity and personal attributes and that a union between a man and a woman allows for great synergy and creates the appropriate corner stone for families- and the raising of children. The synergy between male and female is essential to the benefit of marriage to society and the appropriate rearing of children. I love and respect those who are attracted to the same sex, and I support their legal right to choose their own lifestyle. However, I cannot support a change in the legal structure of the family to cater to their individual tastes and desires, nor can I personally condone action that is inconsistent with the commandments of the Almighty God of Israel.

jacquesm 17y ago

You are looking at this through a very American lens. There are plenty of countries in the world where gays can marry: - Netherlands (one of the few things we did right, historically) - Belgium - Spain - Canada - South Africa - Norway - Sweden Coming soon: - Nepal (from the wikipedia article). So, Homosexual marriage is an oxymoron only in those places that don't allow it, and in those places that do allow it there have been no major outbreaks of anything to date, so stop being so afraid, live and let live. Being able to marry the one you love is an essential part of the freedoms that should be accorded all human beings, including those that love others of the same sex as their own.

hachiya 17y ago
No, they simply redefined "marriage" to suit the political climate. > Being able to marry the one you love is an essential part > of the freedoms that should be accorded all human beings, > including those that love others of the same sex as their > own. Marriage means what it traditionally means. Redefining it to mean a generic "love" would also mean that kingkongrevenge's example of two elderly sisters could marry, or a mother can marry her son, or a man can marry his horse (provided the horse neighs in consent). Redefining the word "marriage" to meet the whims of a minority doesn't actually change what a true marriage is.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  So, how do you think we got to those traditions in the first place ? Traditions change over time, the time for change has come, since we are now societally at a level advanced enough to recognize that when we say that everybody is equal before the law we actually should mean it. Two elderly sisters marrying is fine with me, it doesn't bother me in the least what two elderly sisters are up to. A mother marrying her son has connotations that society will probably never be comfortable with, even though in some countries it actually is legal. A man marrying his horse is a funny example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage But personally I'd probably limit it to transactions between consenting humans. My personal opinion on all this is that consenting people should be free to do whatever they want as long as it does not directly harm others. Mental harm because they 'degrade' what you can do by doing it too does not count.