5 ms·

It was good to see the end of this evil totalitarian system, where the Stasi would spy on civilians and monitor and record every telephone conversation.

Swizec 12y ago
I understood that reference! Marvelous times we live in, eh?
rmc 12y ago
The Statsi employed one staff member per ~160 people in the country. About 1 in 6 people in the country were informants. I don't think the USA even comes close to how oppressive that is.
- synx508 12y ago
  That's technology for you, forcing people out of their jobs!
  - marcosdumay 12y ago
    Technology still didn't replace the policing part. The NSA may be recording everything we say, but you won't be taken during the night and disapeared to some cell because of it. At least, yet.
    - officemonkey 12y ago
      Not unless you're Jose Padilla.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
- phaer 12y ago
  The pure number of employees sounds like a bad metric for "oppressiveness". What would the NSA do with all those people? Machines are doing most of the collection which the MfS/StaSi had to do manually.
- kirsebaer 12y ago
  http://www.dw.de/east-german-stasi-had-189000-informers-study-says/a-3184486 http://www.dw.de/east-german-stasi-had-189000-informers-stud... "About one in 100 East Germans was an informer for communist East Germany's secret police in 1989, according to a new study. Political ideology was their main motivation, both in East and West Germany... According to the report, political ideals served as the primary motivation for people to turn in their neighbors, friends and acquaintances to the secret police. Financial incentives played only a minor role and blackmail was rare." http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/24/5-1-million-americans-have-security-clearances-thats-more-than-the-entire-population-of-norway/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/24... "5.1 million Americans have security clearances. That’s more than the entire population of Norway... About 5.1 million people — or more than 1.5 percent of the population — held security clearances last year."
  - vidarh 12y ago
    Security clearance is a poor proxy for whether or not someone is involved with the security services. A lot of people obtain security clearances because of jobs that brings them only in cursory contact with anything secret, either because it is a requirement, or because it is a hassle not to. E.g. I once did a two week contract for a Norwegian defence research group. The stuff I worked on was not restricted in any way, but the only reason I didn't have to be put through security clearance procedures was that they were in too much of a rush and opted for the inconvenient alternative: One of the senior developers spent two weeks "babysitting" me: Despite working from an office in a wing of the building that housed no high security projects, he had to follow me around wherever I went. Including standing outside the toilets whenever I had to go, and follow me when I went to lunch.
    - hga 12y ago
      Last time I checked, every commissioned officer in the military gets at minimum a Secret clearance. Per Wikipedia that's 236,826 in 2010 in the active military, add the reserves and I'd assume it's over 300K.
  - rmc 12y ago
- towelguy 12y ago
  It's not about being monitored all the time, but about the asumption that they could at any time.
MCRed 12y ago
If you ever find yourself in Berlin, there's a wonderful East Germany Museum, which covers some of this. http://www.ddr-museum.de/en http://www.ddr-museum.de/en One of the exhibits that made an impression on me was a wall of jars with cloth in them. The stassi collected the Scents of people and kept them in their files, in case they ever needed to give dogs the persons sent during a manhunt!
- brightsize 12y ago
  That museum is good fun, though extremely touristy. For a really deep dive, be sure to visit the Stasi Museum. The guided tour is excellent. http://www.stasi-museum.de/en/enindex.htm http://www.stasi-museum.de/en/enindex.htm
- rmc 12y ago
  I would suggest the Stasi museum (in their former headquaters). It's a much better museum for finding out about how repressive it was. The DDR museum has many mundane things like "what type of soap they had in East Germany". The Stasi musuem makes you realise how oppressive it was. Letters from school children written to people who build the Berlin Wall thanking them for building the wall to protect the East German people, etc.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jryle70 12y ago
I know it's fashionable to bash NSA, but as someone who grew up in a communist state in the Cold War, such comparison is really an insult. Forget about living condition, corruption or censorship, let's talk about police state. First, you couldn't just choose where you wanted to live, you needed to get government approval for it. Spending a few nights at your relatives? Had to register with the local police department. Talking about local police, there was usually an officer responsible for a given residential area. He/she knew every member of every families living there. People, usually one per family, were "encouraged" to attend monthly meeting where they were reminded that there were "evil" forces who did everything to undermine the party and the government, and that was everyone's responsibility to report any suspicious activities (I did hear that a lot post 9/11 in the US, but only at public places, for unattended packages. Still it provokes a lot of memory). Promotion at work? well, you'd need a recommendation from the head of the block where you lived. Make sure to be on good terms with him. Wanted to visit another country? You couldn't, unless on official business. As the result no one could have a passport until their first trip abroad. The sad thing is, most people considered all of that as normal, if annoying, facts of life. No one cared about police listening to phone conversation or checking (snail) mail. Because that was their job, of course. In fact, where I lived such policies were overwhelmingly supported. When the Berlin wall was demolished, I remember asking my dad why Soviet Red Army let such thing happen. Why not invade and crush "the enemies". You got brainwashed since very early years. Where were the Snowdens you might ask? none existed, and if they did, there'd be no NYT or Washington Post or the Guardian to report on it. Newspapers closed up shop for much less serious incidents. So bashing NSA all you want, they're hardly angels -- never broke any law evar! but the next time you try to pull a smart-ass, be damn sure you know what you're talking about.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago
  > such comparison is really an insult Not really. The means were much more brutal, but the effect was the same: stifling opposition, containing criticism, controlling the population through fear of an external enemy and internal traitors, etc. > Had to register with the local police department. Every visitor to the U.S. needs to inform the authorities where s/he will reside for the duration. With the exact address, not something vague like state or city. > and that was everyone's responsibility to report any suspicious activities Have you heard about neighborhood watch? They even have menacing signs all over the area that they patrol, reporting any suspicious activity, calling the cops on you if you linger and look around. Lately the public appeals to rat suspicious strangers intensified. About 3 years ago, in Boston's subway I was hearing a PSA with a friendly fireman telling us to be vigilant and report any suspicious individual to the local authorities. I did not have the courage to pull out my camera and take photos of the station. I was suspicious enough already. > Promotion at work? well, you'd need a recommendation from the head of the block where you lived. It was worse than that. You needed to be a member of the one true Party in order to get ahead. But it wasn't much different in the States at one point: you had to be proven innocent from accusations of un-american activities if you wanted to keep your job. Even today, people have to register as democrats, republicans or independents before voting. Can you guess how many of them get to keep their political affiliation a secret? > No one cared about police listening to phone conversation or checking (snail) mail. Of course they did. Those brave enough to seek information from external propaganda sources like Voice of America and Radio Free Europe were taking a serious risk. So were those who told jokes that mocked the regime. Or those trading in banned books. Or those practicing religion in an atheist state. Or those secretly passing manuscripts to foreign visitors so they can be published abroad. Or those dealing with abortions in a state that forbid them categorically because it needed as many new citizens as it could get. Etc. If you didn't guess already, this was not the communist block's cushy poster state. This was Romania.

Swizec 12y ago

I understood that reference! Marvelous times we live in, eh?

rmc 12y ago

The Statsi employed one staff member per ~160 people in the country. About 1 in 6 people in the country were informants. I don't think the USA even comes close to how oppressive that is.

synx508 12y ago
That's technology for you, forcing people out of their jobs!
- marcosdumay 12y ago
  Technology still didn't replace the policing part. The NSA may be recording everything we say, but you won't be taken during the night and disapeared to some cell because of it. At least, yet.
  - officemonkey 12y ago
    Not unless you're Jose Padilla.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
phaer 12y ago
The pure number of employees sounds like a bad metric for "oppressiveness". What would the NSA do with all those people? Machines are doing most of the collection which the MfS/StaSi had to do manually.
kirsebaer 12y ago
http://www.dw.de/east-german-stasi-had-189000-informers-study-says/a-3184486 http://www.dw.de/east-german-stasi-had-189000-informers-stud... "About one in 100 East Germans was an informer for communist East Germany's secret police in 1989, according to a new study. Political ideology was their main motivation, both in East and West Germany... According to the report, political ideals served as the primary motivation for people to turn in their neighbors, friends and acquaintances to the secret police. Financial incentives played only a minor role and blackmail was rare." http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/24/5-1-million-americans-have-security-clearances-thats-more-than-the-entire-population-of-norway/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/24... "5.1 million Americans have security clearances. That’s more than the entire population of Norway... About 5.1 million people — or more than 1.5 percent of the population — held security clearances last year."
- vidarh 12y ago
  Security clearance is a poor proxy for whether or not someone is involved with the security services. A lot of people obtain security clearances because of jobs that brings them only in cursory contact with anything secret, either because it is a requirement, or because it is a hassle not to. E.g. I once did a two week contract for a Norwegian defence research group. The stuff I worked on was not restricted in any way, but the only reason I didn't have to be put through security clearance procedures was that they were in too much of a rush and opted for the inconvenient alternative: One of the senior developers spent two weeks "babysitting" me: Despite working from an office in a wing of the building that housed no high security projects, he had to follow me around wherever I went. Including standing outside the toilets whenever I had to go, and follow me when I went to lunch.
  - hga 12y ago
    Last time I checked, every commissioned officer in the military gets at minimum a Secret clearance. Per Wikipedia that's 236,826 in 2010 in the active military, add the reserves and I'd assume it's over 300K.
- rmc 12y ago
towelguy 12y ago
It's not about being monitored all the time, but about the asumption that they could at any time.

MCRed 12y ago

If you ever find yourself in Berlin, there's a wonderful East Germany Museum, which covers some of this. http://www.ddr-museum.de/en http://www.ddr-museum.de/en One of the exhibits that made an impression on me was a wall of jars with cloth in them. The stassi collected the Scents of people and kept them in their files, in case they ever needed to give dogs the persons sent during a manhunt!

brightsize 12y ago
That museum is good fun, though extremely touristy. For a really deep dive, be sure to visit the Stasi Museum. The guided tour is excellent. http://www.stasi-museum.de/en/enindex.htm http://www.stasi-museum.de/en/enindex.htm
rmc 12y ago
I would suggest the Stasi museum (in their former headquaters). It's a much better museum for finding out about how repressive it was. The DDR museum has many mundane things like "what type of soap they had in East Germany". The Stasi musuem makes you realise how oppressive it was. Letters from school children written to people who build the Berlin Wall thanking them for building the wall to protect the East German people, etc.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jryle70 12y ago

I know it's fashionable to bash NSA, but as someone who grew up in a communist state in the Cold War, such comparison is really an insult. Forget about living condition, corruption or censorship, let's talk about police state. First, you couldn't just choose where you wanted to live, you needed to get government approval for it. Spending a few nights at your relatives? Had to register with the local police department. Talking about local police, there was usually an officer responsible for a given residential area. He/she knew every member of every families living there. People, usually one per family, were "encouraged" to attend monthly meeting where they were reminded that there were "evil" forces who did everything to undermine the party and the government, and that was everyone's responsibility to report any suspicious activities (I did hear that a lot post 9/11 in the US, but only at public places, for unattended packages. Still it provokes a lot of memory). Promotion at work? well, you'd need a recommendation from the head of the block where you lived. Make sure to be on good terms with him. Wanted to visit another country? You couldn't, unless on official business. As the result no one could have a passport until their first trip abroad. The sad thing is, most people considered all of that as normal, if annoying, facts of life. No one cared about police listening to phone conversation or checking (snail) mail. Because that was their job, of course. In fact, where I lived such policies were overwhelmingly supported. When the Berlin wall was demolished, I remember asking my dad why Soviet Red Army let such thing happen. Why not invade and crush "the enemies". You got brainwashed since very early years. Where were the Snowdens you might ask? none existed, and if they did, there'd be no NYT or Washington Post or the Guardian to report on it. Newspapers closed up shop for much less serious incidents. So bashing NSA all you want, they're hardly angels -- never broke any law evar! but the next time you try to pull a smart-ass, be damn sure you know what you're talking about.

stefantalpalaru 12y ago
> such comparison is really an insult Not really. The means were much more brutal, but the effect was the same: stifling opposition, containing criticism, controlling the population through fear of an external enemy and internal traitors, etc. > Had to register with the local police department. Every visitor to the U.S. needs to inform the authorities where s/he will reside for the duration. With the exact address, not something vague like state or city. > and that was everyone's responsibility to report any suspicious activities Have you heard about neighborhood watch? They even have menacing signs all over the area that they patrol, reporting any suspicious activity, calling the cops on you if you linger and look around. Lately the public appeals to rat suspicious strangers intensified. About 3 years ago, in Boston's subway I was hearing a PSA with a friendly fireman telling us to be vigilant and report any suspicious individual to the local authorities. I did not have the courage to pull out my camera and take photos of the station. I was suspicious enough already. > Promotion at work? well, you'd need a recommendation from the head of the block where you lived. It was worse than that. You needed to be a member of the one true Party in order to get ahead. But it wasn't much different in the States at one point: you had to be proven innocent from accusations of un-american activities if you wanted to keep your job. Even today, people have to register as democrats, republicans or independents before voting. Can you guess how many of them get to keep their political affiliation a secret? > No one cared about police listening to phone conversation or checking (snail) mail. Of course they did. Those brave enough to seek information from external propaganda sources like Voice of America and Radio Free Europe were taking a serious risk. So were those who told jokes that mocked the regime. Or those trading in banned books. Or those practicing religion in an atheist state. Or those secretly passing manuscripts to foreign visitors so they can be published abroad. Or those dealing with abortions in a state that forbid them categorically because it needed as many new citizens as it could get. Etc. If you didn't guess already, this was not the communist block's cushy poster state. This was Romania.