23 ms·

OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

187 points by dil8 12y ago

awjr 12y ago
I think the interesting thing about these Dark Net markets is how they enable sellers to market their product and maintain their reputation without the need to "get out on the streets" and push their wares. It is fundamentally better for society. What governments need to get over is the failed "War on drugs". Legalise and tax the lot. Decriminalise possession, release all prisoners on non-violent drug related internments. Provide health care support to help people come off drugs as we do with alcoholics/smokers. Let's stop being so damn hypocritical about this.
- killerpopiller 12y ago
  I don't think we should push OpenBazar into the illegal drug corner. It is a neutral tech and follows the decentralization vector the internet opened. Amazon, Ebay, alibaba and so on, all could very well get absorbed by an open bazar concept. This happened imho to bittorrent, which remains in the piracy corner, even though it is brillant tech solution. E.g. BTSync still has this reputation problem (besides missing open sources) which curbs adoption from sys-admins.
  - geographomics 12y ago
    One advantage of the Silk Road style markets was that, being centralised, they could choose to filter their wares down to a particular niche. By permitting everything by design, OpenBazaar is probably going to become infamous for facilitating trade in child pornography, materials of terrorism, and other such items considered a great deal more disreputable than prohibited drugs.
    - Jukelox 12y ago
      I think your fears are purely speculative and are distracting from what's really going on here. We are witnessing a demand for unregulated markets because regulated markets are way too slow in responding to social changes. Let's face it - governmental decisions are made in the best interest of influential parties, not in the best interests of the individual. Do not protect me from myself.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - rayiner 12y ago
        Nobody is protecting you from yourself. They're trying to protect other people from the damage you can do as an addict, a child pornographer, or a terrorist.
        Jukelox 12y ago
        What is terrorism, actually? If you give this question some serious thought, it becomes apparent that the term is full of confusion. Politicians perpetuate – and exploit – this ambiguity; causing greater harm by diverting attention away from issues which really do need to be addressed. More people are killed by the police than terrorism in the United States. http://www.alternet.org/more-americans-killed-police-terrorists-crime-down-why-police-aggression http://www.alternet.org/more-americans-killed-police-terrori...
        Touche 12y ago
        You can question what terrorism is when you're in the grey area. But some things are just black/white terrorism, like the Boston Marathon bombing.
        Jukelox 12y ago
        The Boston Marathon bombing was a terrible tragedy. They purchased their supplies from regular retail outlets, not a unregulated internet market. [1] Which goes back to my original point. Linking terrorism to OpenBazaar is a far stretch and is rooted in fear, not data. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings
        slaman 12y ago
        It will always be possible to cause harm with legal objects, unless they ban fists and teeth. While I think linking terrorism is a stretch, there are benefits to regulating the sale of things designed specifically to cause death, automatic firearms, high capacity magazines, warheads...
  - Touche 12y ago
    What need is there for selling non-illegal things in a darknet market? Let's be honest, OpenBazaar will be used to sell drugs, stolen ids, and other illicit things.
    - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
      > What need is there for selling non-illegal things in a darknet market? Avoiding platform fees and payment processor fees is no small thing.
      - mineshaftgap 12y ago
        Also taxes. What is the VAT like 20%? That is a lot of savings.
        XorNot 12y ago
        And again, illegal.
        expr- 12y ago
        That depends. Individuals generally need not pay tax for selling their private property.
        paulhauggis 12y ago
        I'm not sure where you live, but this is not the case nearly everywhere in the US.
        tirant 12y ago
        It's the case in most european countries, and I am sure also in lots of other places.
        xorcist 12y ago
        No, you're probably thinking of sales tax.
jasode 12y ago
I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government buildings. However, cars also have tons of other legitimate uses. Consider that ebay has about 200 million users.[1] Their fees have been going up every year and they are now at 10% (which does not include the separate insertion fees.)[2] If one can sell a legal item such as a $50 book on ebay, why not sell it on a p2p marketplace and avoid paying $5 of that sale to ebay? If not OpenBazaar or similar p2p architecture, what alternatives do folks propose? Do 200 million ebay users have lawful reasons to avoid paying ebay commission fees? At this point, I believe low-volume selling is too dependent on proprietary platforms such as ebay or amazonmarketplace. As an analogy using email, I'm glad that SMTP won over closed systems such as CompuServe, AOL, and Western Union's EasyLink. Even though SMTP email has many bad uses such as phishing, malware delivery, and spam, I'm still glad it won. The good uses outweigh the bad. Can a more open platform for sellers without the stigma of illegal activity be realized? [1]https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+"200+million+users" https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+"200+million+users" [2]https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+raises+fees+10%25 https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+raises+fees+10%25
- doctorfoo 12y ago
  When OpenBazaar seems more mature I will definitely consider listing (my entirely legal) items on it first, at least to experiment. Lower fees + I'm happy with Bitcoin = Win.
  - ams6110 12y ago
    There are absolutely legitimate uses for this kind of platform. It's the online equivalent of the local boutique retail shop, street vendor, or home yard sale.
- Touche 12y ago
  Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?
manucorporat 12y ago
Looks like they are also developing a Search API for OpenBazaar https://search.bizarre.company https://search.bizarre.company
SamPatt 12y ago
Hey HN, this is Sam Patterson, operations lead on OpenBazaar. Please note that this open source project is about 6 months old, and not production ready. It has just started integrating Tor, but should not be considered private or secure yet. We welcome testers, we are about to release 0.3.0 sometime in the next few days. Our Github is here: https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar We've gotten a lot of attention from the recent dark net markets being shut down. As I've said elsewhere, viewing OpenBazaar as SR 3.0 misses the true potential of creating a protocol, network, and client that allows individuals or companies to conduct trade directly with each other online. We welcome feedback on our project, I'm happy to answer questions, and of course we'd be delighted if you want to join us. Let's make trade free.
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but that didn't matter). Your best bet is to just not ensure IP addresses are recorded and unobfuscated. That'll help tip the balance towards legal activity.
  - joshschreuder 12y ago
    I'm not sure it's equivalent. What you're saying is that whoever wrote the stack that SR used should be prosecuted for facilitating the site's creation. This is simply a project in the same way BitTorrent is a project - it can be used for many things, illegality being just one, and even if that is the main usage pattern (which isn't clear at this point), that's no reason for the creator to be punished.
    - tikhon 12y ago
      Tell that to the creator of cryptocat
higherpurpose 12y ago
Sensationalist title, just like saying "Bitcoin - an untouchable crypto-currency for drugs". This has the potential to be used by everyone in the world to sell anything.
ams6110 12y ago
If authorities acted against OpenBazaar users, they could arrest individuals, but the network would survive. This sounds exactly like the current physical marketplace for anything illegal. Individual drug dealers are arrested, sometimes even big distributor organizations are taken down, but the trade network always goes on.
paulhauggis 12y ago
For my business, I order thousands of items on Amazon and Ebay per week. Even with the protections in place, sellers don't ship the items and then never respond/won't refund, I get the wrong items/broken items (and they refuse to let me send it back). Why would I shop anywhere without these assurances?
- SamPatt 12y ago
  OpenBazaar uses 2-of-3 multisig, meaning that the buyer doens't send funds directly to the seller but instead sends it to a Bitcoin account that is jointly controlled by three parties; the buyer, the seller, and a trusted third party called a notary. Both parties agree to the notary, and then in order for the funds to be released from the multisig, any two parties must agree on how the funds are released. In a normal transaction, once the item ships and is received, both the buyer and seller agree to the transaction and funds are released. If there is a problem, then that third party enters the picture, and sends funds from the multisig by agreeing with either buyer or seller.
  - click170 12y ago
    Thank you for clarifying. The buyer and seller both get a say in who the notary is, correct? What if they can't agree on a trusted notary? Is it possible to have more than one notary (eg 3 notaries requiring 4 people in agreement for a large transaction?)
  - sanswork 12y ago
    How will they be able to prove anything though? The seller could send an empty box. They'd have a tracking code then "proving" they'd sent the item. The buyer could claim it was an empty box but the 3rd party wouldn't be able to know if it was or not. A scammer would just have to ensure they cycle 3rd parties so their actions aren't noticed(or cycle accounts). What's to stop that?
    - mappu 12y ago
      That (fraud) is a problem for current ecommerce too. It can be addressed in part by reputation systems.
EGreg 12y ago
As someone passionate about decentralized systems, I'm curious how OpenBazaar would deal with, say, a marketplace for assassinations and other things that would clearly be illegal and unethical. Can any distributed system deal with it? Probably best to leave it in place and expose such people, but who gets to decide which crimes warrant exposing the participants, and how would that even work? I can think about sting operations but that's about it.
ChrisGaudreau 12y ago
Untouchable by police? That's a pretty big claim. What would happen if the government were to round up some computers and control 50% or more of the network?
gwern 12y ago
Keep in mind, a lot of people are hyping OpenBazaar more than it deserves or is helpful. The basic question about OB no one has answered is: assuming they get it up and running and with a good security model, why will the mass of black-market - or legal - users ever use it, when using Amazon or something is easier and more familiar? You may say that they'll use it so they don't have to worry about police, except black-market users' revealed preferences are that they don't care: SR2 was doing millions a month without any escrow at all, and multisig usage is uncommon even on the markets which support it (vendors generally estimate <10%). The users seem to simply not care. Why are they going to use OB?
- ertdfgcb 12y ago
  The users that don't care are almost always the users buying the smallest (personal) amounts, and they usually don't care because they know if they get scammed or it gets lost they only lost $30. The customers who want larger quantities very much do care, and they're the ones who spend real cash. Furthermore it's pretty common for a dealer who has a good enough reputation to start requiring early finalization. Most of the reason people still used SR2 is it was the easiest place to find their favorite vendor, and the lack of escrow didn't matter because you trust him and/or he requires FE no matter what the market. As for why people will use OB (I have no idea if they will), cops aren't the only thing to worry about when buying drugs on the darknet (in fact they're close to the bottom of the list). Several marketplaces (including SR2) have been hacked and had all the users money stolen, and a couple have just disappeared with everyone's money. I suspect the selling point will be more like: "Hackers and corrupt admins won't be able to steal your money! Plus it's never down! Plus it's harder to get arrested!".
  - gwern 12y ago
    > The users that don't care are almost always the users buying the smallest (personal) amounts, and they usually don't care because they know if they get scammed or it gets lost they only lost $30. The customers who want larger quantities very much do care, and they're the ones who spend real cash. No, you're just wrong. The multisig markets do little business, period. And lots of SR2 sales were for quite large amounts, see Judith Aldridge's paper on this topic - the larger quantities made up most of the revenue. > I suspect the selling point will be more like: "Hackers and corrupt admins won't be able to steal your money! Plus it's never down! Plus it's harder to get arrested!". And yet, none of that has made PGP or multisig standard.
theone11 12y ago
untouchable is such a overused word. everything is touchable. the government just has to order some products and track their origin using the mail system, get enough orders, you find the vicinity, spy on the drop off area and the businessman is bound to make mistakes, we are human after all.
theone11 12y ago
untouchable is such a overused word. everything is touchable. the government just has to order some products and track their origin using the mail system, get enough orders, you find the vicinity, spy on the drop off area and the businessman is bound to make mistakes, we are human after all. there are many ways to skin this cat.

187 points by dil8 12y ago

awjr 12y ago

I think the interesting thing about these Dark Net markets is how they enable sellers to market their product and maintain their reputation without the need to "get out on the streets" and push their wares. It is fundamentally better for society. What governments need to get over is the failed "War on drugs". Legalise and tax the lot. Decriminalise possession, release all prisoners on non-violent drug related internments. Provide health care support to help people come off drugs as we do with alcoholics/smokers. Let's stop being so damn hypocritical about this.

killerpopiller 12y ago
I don't think we should push OpenBazar into the illegal drug corner. It is a neutral tech and follows the decentralization vector the internet opened. Amazon, Ebay, alibaba and so on, all could very well get absorbed by an open bazar concept. This happened imho to bittorrent, which remains in the piracy corner, even though it is brillant tech solution. E.g. BTSync still has this reputation problem (besides missing open sources) which curbs adoption from sys-admins.
- geographomics 12y ago
  One advantage of the Silk Road style markets was that, being centralised, they could choose to filter their wares down to a particular niche. By permitting everything by design, OpenBazaar is probably going to become infamous for facilitating trade in child pornography, materials of terrorism, and other such items considered a great deal more disreputable than prohibited drugs.
  - Jukelox 12y ago
    I think your fears are purely speculative and are distracting from what's really going on here. We are witnessing a demand for unregulated markets because regulated markets are way too slow in responding to social changes. Let's face it - governmental decisions are made in the best interest of influential parties, not in the best interests of the individual. Do not protect me from myself.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - rayiner 12y ago
      Nobody is protecting you from yourself. They're trying to protect other people from the damage you can do as an addict, a child pornographer, or a terrorist.
      - Jukelox 12y ago
        What is terrorism, actually? If you give this question some serious thought, it becomes apparent that the term is full of confusion. Politicians perpetuate – and exploit – this ambiguity; causing greater harm by diverting attention away from issues which really do need to be addressed. More people are killed by the police than terrorism in the United States. http://www.alternet.org/more-americans-killed-police-terrorists-crime-down-why-police-aggression http://www.alternet.org/more-americans-killed-police-terrori...
        Touche 12y ago
        You can question what terrorism is when you're in the grey area. But some things are just black/white terrorism, like the Boston Marathon bombing.
        Jukelox 12y ago
        The Boston Marathon bombing was a terrible tragedy. They purchased their supplies from regular retail outlets, not a unregulated internet market. [1] Which goes back to my original point. Linking terrorism to OpenBazaar is a far stretch and is rooted in fear, not data. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings
        slaman 12y ago
        It will always be possible to cause harm with legal objects, unless they ban fists and teeth. While I think linking terrorism is a stretch, there are benefits to regulating the sale of things designed specifically to cause death, automatic firearms, high capacity magazines, warheads...
- Touche 12y ago
  What need is there for selling non-illegal things in a darknet market? Let's be honest, OpenBazaar will be used to sell drugs, stolen ids, and other illicit things.
  - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
    > What need is there for selling non-illegal things in a darknet market? Avoiding platform fees and payment processor fees is no small thing.
    - mineshaftgap 12y ago
      Also taxes. What is the VAT like 20%? That is a lot of savings.
      - XorNot 12y ago
        And again, illegal.
        expr- 12y ago
        That depends. Individuals generally need not pay tax for selling their private property.
        paulhauggis 12y ago
        I'm not sure where you live, but this is not the case nearly everywhere in the US.
        tirant 12y ago
        It's the case in most european countries, and I am sure also in lots of other places.
        xorcist 12y ago
        No, you're probably thinking of sales tax.

jasode 12y ago

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government buildings. However, cars also have tons of other legitimate uses. Consider that ebay has about 200 million users.[1] Their fees have been going up every year and they are now at 10% (which does not include the separate insertion fees.)[2] If one can sell a legal item such as a $50 book on ebay, why not sell it on a p2p marketplace and avoid paying $5 of that sale to ebay? If not OpenBazaar or similar p2p architecture, what alternatives do folks propose? Do 200 million ebay users have lawful reasons to avoid paying ebay commission fees? At this point, I believe low-volume selling is too dependent on proprietary platforms such as ebay or amazonmarketplace. As an analogy using email, I'm glad that SMTP won over closed systems such as CompuServe, AOL, and Western Union's EasyLink. Even though SMTP email has many bad uses such as phishing, malware delivery, and spam, I'm still glad it won. The good uses outweigh the bad. Can a more open platform for sellers without the stigma of illegal activity be realized? [1]https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+"200+million+users" https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+"200+million+users" [2]https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+raises+fees+10%25 https://www.google.com/search?q=ebay+raises+fees+10%25

doctorfoo 12y ago
When OpenBazaar seems more mature I will definitely consider listing (my entirely legal) items on it first, at least to experiment. Lower fees + I'm happy with Bitcoin = Win.
- ams6110 12y ago
  There are absolutely legitimate uses for this kind of platform. It's the online equivalent of the local boutique retail shop, street vendor, or home yard sale.
Touche 12y ago
Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

manucorporat 12y ago

Looks like they are also developing a Search API for OpenBazaar https://search.bizarre.company https://search.bizarre.company

SamPatt 12y ago

Hey HN, this is Sam Patterson, operations lead on OpenBazaar. Please note that this open source project is about 6 months old, and not production ready. It has just started integrating Tor, but should not be considered private or secure yet. We welcome testers, we are about to release 0.3.0 sometime in the next few days. Our Github is here: https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar We've gotten a lot of attention from the recent dark net markets being shut down. As I've said elsewhere, viewing OpenBazaar as SR 3.0 misses the true potential of creating a protocol, network, and client that allows individuals or companies to conduct trade directly with each other online. We welcome feedback on our project, I'm happy to answer questions, and of course we'd be delighted if you want to join us. Let's make trade free.

mike_hearn 12y ago
I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but that didn't matter). Your best bet is to just not ensure IP addresses are recorded and unobfuscated. That'll help tip the balance towards legal activity.
- joshschreuder 12y ago
  I'm not sure it's equivalent. What you're saying is that whoever wrote the stack that SR used should be prosecuted for facilitating the site's creation. This is simply a project in the same way BitTorrent is a project - it can be used for many things, illegality being just one, and even if that is the main usage pattern (which isn't clear at this point), that's no reason for the creator to be punished.
  - tikhon 12y ago
    Tell that to the creator of cryptocat

higherpurpose 12y ago

Sensationalist title, just like saying "Bitcoin - an untouchable crypto-currency for drugs". This has the potential to be used by everyone in the world to sell anything.

ams6110 12y ago

If authorities acted against OpenBazaar users, they could arrest individuals, but the network would survive. This sounds exactly like the current physical marketplace for anything illegal. Individual drug dealers are arrested, sometimes even big distributor organizations are taken down, but the trade network always goes on.

paulhauggis 12y ago

For my business, I order thousands of items on Amazon and Ebay per week. Even with the protections in place, sellers don't ship the items and then never respond/won't refund, I get the wrong items/broken items (and they refuse to let me send it back). Why would I shop anywhere without these assurances?

SamPatt 12y ago
OpenBazaar uses 2-of-3 multisig, meaning that the buyer doens't send funds directly to the seller but instead sends it to a Bitcoin account that is jointly controlled by three parties; the buyer, the seller, and a trusted third party called a notary. Both parties agree to the notary, and then in order for the funds to be released from the multisig, any two parties must agree on how the funds are released. In a normal transaction, once the item ships and is received, both the buyer and seller agree to the transaction and funds are released. If there is a problem, then that third party enters the picture, and sends funds from the multisig by agreeing with either buyer or seller.
- click170 12y ago
  Thank you for clarifying. The buyer and seller both get a say in who the notary is, correct? What if they can't agree on a trusted notary? Is it possible to have more than one notary (eg 3 notaries requiring 4 people in agreement for a large transaction?)
- sanswork 12y ago
  How will they be able to prove anything though? The seller could send an empty box. They'd have a tracking code then "proving" they'd sent the item. The buyer could claim it was an empty box but the 3rd party wouldn't be able to know if it was or not. A scammer would just have to ensure they cycle 3rd parties so their actions aren't noticed(or cycle accounts). What's to stop that?
  - mappu 12y ago
    That (fraud) is a problem for current ecommerce too. It can be addressed in part by reputation systems.

EGreg 12y ago

As someone passionate about decentralized systems, I'm curious how OpenBazaar would deal with, say, a marketplace for assassinations and other things that would clearly be illegal and unethical. Can any distributed system deal with it? Probably best to leave it in place and expose such people, but who gets to decide which crimes warrant exposing the participants, and how would that even work? I can think about sting operations but that's about it.

ChrisGaudreau 12y ago

Untouchable by police? That's a pretty big claim. What would happen if the government were to round up some computers and control 50% or more of the network?

gwern 12y ago

Keep in mind, a lot of people are hyping OpenBazaar more than it deserves or is helpful. The basic question about OB no one has answered is: assuming they get it up and running and with a good security model, why will the mass of black-market - or legal - users ever use it, when using Amazon or something is easier and more familiar? You may say that they'll use it so they don't have to worry about police, except black-market users' revealed preferences are that they don't care: SR2 was doing millions a month without any escrow at all, and multisig usage is uncommon even on the markets which support it (vendors generally estimate <10%). The users seem to simply not care. Why are they going to use OB?

ertdfgcb 12y ago
The users that don't care are almost always the users buying the smallest (personal) amounts, and they usually don't care because they know if they get scammed or it gets lost they only lost $30. The customers who want larger quantities very much do care, and they're the ones who spend real cash. Furthermore it's pretty common for a dealer who has a good enough reputation to start requiring early finalization. Most of the reason people still used SR2 is it was the easiest place to find their favorite vendor, and the lack of escrow didn't matter because you trust him and/or he requires FE no matter what the market. As for why people will use OB (I have no idea if they will), cops aren't the only thing to worry about when buying drugs on the darknet (in fact they're close to the bottom of the list). Several marketplaces (including SR2) have been hacked and had all the users money stolen, and a couple have just disappeared with everyone's money. I suspect the selling point will be more like: "Hackers and corrupt admins won't be able to steal your money! Plus it's never down! Plus it's harder to get arrested!".
- gwern 12y ago
  > The users that don't care are almost always the users buying the smallest (personal) amounts, and they usually don't care because they know if they get scammed or it gets lost they only lost $30. The customers who want larger quantities very much do care, and they're the ones who spend real cash. No, you're just wrong. The multisig markets do little business, period. And lots of SR2 sales were for quite large amounts, see Judith Aldridge's paper on this topic - the larger quantities made up most of the revenue. > I suspect the selling point will be more like: "Hackers and corrupt admins won't be able to steal your money! Plus it's never down! Plus it's harder to get arrested!". And yet, none of that has made PGP or multisig standard.

theone11 12y ago

untouchable is such a overused word. everything is touchable. the government just has to order some products and track their origin using the mail system, get enough orders, you find the vicinity, spy on the drop off area and the businessman is bound to make mistakes, we are human after all.

theone11 12y ago